338lm load range h1000 HSM

[timelinex]

I have a backstory why I am asking this, which isnt required to read so if you just want to know my question, it is: <span style="font-weight: bold">What is the recommended grain range to start a ladder/ocw test with H1000 and 300gr OTM bergers?</span>

And now the story...Now that I'm very comfortable reloading for my 308. I wanted to start working up a load for my 338lm.

For H1000 with 300gr bergers I see most people are in the 89gr to 94gr range with Lapua brass, with most being around 92gr.

I have HSM once fired(from this rifle) brass. I've read the HSM brass is relabeled Nosler brass. My primers are Federal 215m.

I loaded up 5 rounds of 90gr just to see how it shoots, and 1 round of 87.5gr just in case to try first, which should have been way on the lower end of pressure.

Well I'm sure glad I did. I shot the 87.5gr and it completely locked my bolt. It took a minute or so of working on it to eject the cartridge. The ejector left half of the headsuper shiny( basically the same ejector marking you would see from regular high pressure, but just much more prominent). Surprisingly not much cratering in the primer though.

Anyways, the point of the matter is that 87.5 which I thought was supposed to be the lower end of the pressure spectrum, ended up being way overpressure. So back to my original question..What is the recommended grain range to start a ladder/ocw test with H1000 and 300gr OTM bergers?

 

[timelinex]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

One thing I actually just noticed. Even though the number of my neck bushing matches to what I should be using, I don't think its the right one. The inner diameter of a sized case measures .334 or less. I tried to fit in a trimming pilot into the mouth for a 338, which is .334 and it can only go in halfway. So looks like my bullets are getting somewhere between .004 and .006 of tension, which I know is alot.

Could this be the reason for the serious overpressure?

 

[Enough Said]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

87.5 should NOT be a high-pressure load.

I'm at 92.0
Lapua Brass
2.724 case
3.83 OAL
2760 FPS

I couldn't get them to group when loaded short, but remember, these are long-range bullets and are relatively less stable at shorter ranges. I never shoot under 300 unless confirming a zero at 150. They will be more impressive at longer ranges.

SMK's are less fickle, IMO.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">87.5 should NOT be a high-pressure load.

I'm at 92.0
Lapua Brass
2.724 case
3.83 OAL
2760 FPS

I couldn't get them to group when loaded short, but remember, these are long-range bullets and are relatively less stable at shorter ranges. I never shoot under 300 unless confirming a zero at 150. They will be more impressive at longer ranges.

SMK's are less fickle, IMO.</div></div>

Thats why I thought it was so weird. I'm starting to think it was from the over-tension.

 

[CrawDad338]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

Did you trim or FL resize the brass? If you have a tight chamber like me that soft HSM brass might be growing too much after being fired. Did you measure? How long is the spent case that stuck? I had trouble with HSM and Hornady brass sticking in my gun. I ran a ladder from 86gr to 92gr of H1000 without issue using virgin Lapua brass and 300 Berger OTMs.

 

[Glockin' Bob]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

I believe HSM brass is manufactured by Bertram, an Australian manufacturer. I don't believe Nosler is made by Bertram.

With respect to your neck tension, here is my procedure for getting my necks uniformed.

1. With new brass, lube and run through normal sizer die with an expander ball. This will get the inside diameter set right, for a 338 that'll probably be around .335".

2. Set up the case neck trimmer to turn the case necks, you'll probably want about 0.014" thickness. So if your neck I.D. is 0.335", (0.335" + (0.014" * 2)) you would set up to turn your necks to 0.368".

Of course, depending upon your chamber dimensions, how much neck thickness you want and how much tension you want, those numbers could change but these will probably get you close with a factory chamber.

Ensure those case lengths are 2.714".

 

[Holtz]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

Two quick points. Using H1000 with Berger 300 grain OTM's, Walt recommends starting with 80 grains & a max of 84.3. He wrote me that his bullets take up more space in the brass, so to be careful with numbers from the powder folks. Check his data out by writing him @ [email protected] He's very good at answering. Point #2. What was the size of your bushing? I'm using .365 & .364.

 

[CrawDad338]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Holtz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using H1000 with Berger 300 grain OTM's, Walt recommends starting with 80 grains & a max of 84.3. </div></div>

Wow, velocity would be shit. Plenty of folks here running 90-92gr of H-1000 with a mag length COAL of 3.70

 

[Holtz]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

Are they using Berger 300 grain Tactical OTM's? Just passing along the info I got from Walt Berger. He's advertising 2600 max vel with a 102.7% fill ratio @ 84.3 gr. Got a new Magnitospeed chronograph on the way, so i'll be able to provide some mv data soon.

 

[Holtz]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

BTW, I use 89 gr. of Retumbo with my 300 grain Bergers. I just ordered some H1000, so plan to experiment with that also, plus neck tension, plus 250 gr. Bergers, plus COAL inside & beyond mag length (jump distance)once I get the Bayo MagnitoSpeed chronograph to verify everything (Shot up my last Beta Chrony). What a great pasttime!

 

[psinclair]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2799518#Post2799518

Check this out....

 

[CrawDad338]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Holtz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are they using Berger 300 grain Tactical OTM's? </div></div>

Yes...

 

[Holtz]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

great info. I put that as a favorite for future reference. Thanks.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

Thanks for all the replies guys. I haven't got to neck trimming yet, so thats out of the question.

I am using bushing size 361. My neck diameters seem to be in the .012 to the.014 range. Its hard to get an exact reading considering variance and that I am using a regular caliper set and not a ball one. I did bring in a case or two into my local reloading shop, and they measured it with their ball micrometer. We came up with the 361 based on those figures, to give .002-.003 of tension. How thick is your brass that you are using .365?

The problem with those figures are that I can never duplicate the values they got at the shop, but I did watch him measure it multiple times with a quality ball micrometer.

What made me question the neck tension is that on my 308 I'm pretty confident I use somewhere between .001 and .002 tension, and it seats with almost no resistance felt. Using the same brand seater(forster benchrest micrometer) for the 338, seating wasn't 'hard' per say, but I felt alot more resistance.

Can someone measure the weight of water one case of their lapua holds, maybe HSM brass has less volume?

As far as trimming goes, I trimmed it back to the shortest length which was 2.716.

I am seating these bullets .01 jammed into the lands. I only neck size, but I don't have any resistance closing the bolt and extracting un-fired rounds though.

Something that might be worth mentioning... With the HSM factory ammo that this brass came from, there is slight resistance when closing the bolt, but after the shot, opening the bolt and extraction is effortless.

I will measure the stuck case tomorrow and report back on that figure. Anything other info that would be needed to get an idea of whats going on?

 

[Holtz]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

I gave up measuring the thickness of the neck, multiply X 2, add bullet diameter,ya da, ya da. Too much variance. Just take a factory round & measure the outside diameter of the neck as close to the bullet as you can get, subtract .001-.003. My Lapua factory loads measured .367, thus .365. My guess is you were way too tight. Had to get 2 different bushings for my 300 Win Mag due to different brass. I like it firm enough so that you can't twist the bullet by hand once seated, but not too tight. A couple of other points. Get a Wilson gage for your .338 LM, or any other cartridge you handload. If it fits in length after depriming/resizing, no need to trim. Some good info on folks over trimming in reloading basics. Finally, a lot to be said for Full length resizing dies. I know, Ford or Chevy. I use RCBS Gold Medal Match FL bushing dies. Pricey, but produces a quality round. Reddings are also great from what I hear.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Holtz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I gave up measuring the thickness of the neck, multiply X 2, add bullet diameter,ya da, ya da. Too much variance. Just take a factory round & measure the outside diameter of the neck as close to the bullet as you can get, subtract .001-.003. My Lapua factory loads measured .367, thus .365. My guess is you were way too tight. Had to get 2 different bushings for my 300 Win Mag due to different brass. I like it firm enough so that you can't twist the bullet by hand once seated, but not too tight. A couple of other points. Get a Wilson gage for your .338 LM, or any other cartridge you handload. If it fits in length after depriming/resizing, no need to trim. Some good info on folks over trimming in reloading basics. Finally, a lot to be said for Full length resizing dies. I know, Ford or Chevy. I use RCBS Gold Medal Match FL bushing dies. Pricey, but produces a quality round. Reddings are also great from what I hear. </div></div>
I went with redding type s, so I'm fairly confident it's not the dies.

I'm going to measure a loaded round,go off that and see where that gets me. It just sucks these little bushing suckers cost like $20+ a peice for the good ones, and you might need a couple to find the right one. Then after all that the other ones become useless and a waste of $!!

 

[timelinex]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

Ok guys, the plot thickens.

I just measured a loaded factory cartridge with the HSM brass and it measured .363 . That means my correct bushing should be .361 which Is what I'm using! I even verified the interior dimension of the bushing and it is .361
So even though it seems to be going in harder, the pressure problem is obviously not tension related.

I also measured the length of the piece of brass that was high pressure and it came in at 3.7145. I cut them to 3.714, so it basically stayed the same.

I know it can't be the same problem as hornady brass, where it gets jammed because its soft. The factory ammo does not get stuck.

Any ideas? Should I just load up a couple much milder loads.

 

[CrawDad338]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: timelinex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Any ideas? Should I just load up a couple much milder loads.</div></div>

I think we're in a similar situation, what action are you using? I just went through 100 Virgin 338 "Lapua brand" cases with max load H1000(92gr)and 300 Bergers without a single stuck case. Now after I FL re-size and trim once fired cases for load develop 91.5gr is sticking. I tried to anneal and trim a pinch shorter than 2.714 but no dice, 91.5gr is still sticking. I'm going to try a milder ladder test, find the sticking point, and weigh my options. I might also try chasing the lands and single load to see how much a longer COAL helps. Good news is the 300 OTMs are stable after they go subsonic if I have to settle for a lower velocity to avoid sticking and/or a bunch of extra steps for case prep. If I can't squeeze 2,600 fps on once fired brass I'm having the bitch reamed...

 

[Holtz]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

Looks like you are down to 2 possibilities, load,or brass . Lapua vs Nosler. I'm no engineer, but .004 difference between our measurements seems like a lot in brass thickness @ the neck. Maybe that's why folks love Lapua brass. My Lapua brass after 3-4 firings with 300 grain OTM's shows no sign of pressure or a need of trimming using 89 gr. of Retumbo ( just a little slower burn rate than H1000 according to the burn rate chart)out of my MRAD. As to the extra bushings, you'll probably need at least 2 for each set of dies. Just send the rest back & say wrong size. RCBS was very good about that for me.

 

[jonthomps]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

I'm glad someone else thought Walt was smoking something with a starting load of 80gr for H1000. When I read that e-mail I called them to see if it was a misprint! My sweet spot for the Bergers is 90.1gr of H1000. Excellent accuracy and great brass life. I'm getting 2700-2710 with that load in a 28" barrel.

 

[doug290]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

i have not been reloading but 5-6 yrs but i did alittle on my 110ba savage .338 the first powder i used was h1000 it locked bolt and the repor was very diff i knew i had done somthing wrong i re checked data and what i loaded i was correct didnot use 1000 again i settled for rl25 worked real well i now have a sako trg havenot shot yet still getting info on wht trg likes

 

[timelinex]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

What intervals are you guys starting your load testing? I plan on moving the bullet to seat right at the lands instead of into the lands. Maybe seating it into the lands with t particular rifle is no good. I was thinking to start at 83 and load to 90 in .8 grain intervals. Is that too much or too little?

 

[timelinex]

Re: 338lm load range h1000 HSM

So for anyone else that is having this problem...

I loaded up some rounds and then pulled out the bullets. This effectively neck sized the brass to be larger. I loaded 5 rounds.

1. 87.5 mag length
2. 89 mag length
3. 90 mag length
4. 87.5 .01" into the lands
5. 87.5 mag length, but the neck was sized with my .361 bushing (so same as the one that stuck last time but mag length instead of .01" into the lands.

The results where that 1,2,3 all shot great with #3 showing shiny extractor marks, but no problem extracting. #4, shot ok, but it showed about the same pressure signs of 90gr mag length. #5 locked the bolt, but I just had to put it back down and up to get it out, so much better then last time when it took minutes to get the bolt out.

So my conclusions is that In this particular combination of components and rifle, putting it into the lands is probably not worth it because it significantly raises pressure. I'm guessing I would have to drop my charge 2 grains to accomadate for it, so its not worth it. The most important thing I learned is that despite what the numbers read, I had waay too much neck tension. The combination of the two created a very high pressure load, even with the light charge.