416 warlord but not available currently due to rcc being gone . and the 416 vestal both cheytac bolt face cartridges. The 416 vestal is largest cheytac bolt face cartradge currently made
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375 Mercenary , the beast unleashed !
- Thread starter Swamplord
- Start date
Thanks for the info! But holy shit that 416 vestal is monster of a round! Won’t that cause pressure issues though? Or I’m guessing the case can’t be loaded to maximum potential capacity? Cuz it looks like it has 20gr powder capacity than the 416 Barrett
The 408 cheytac holds about 160 grains of water and the 416 Barrett holds about 200 grains of water. I have no idea what a 416 Vestal holds.
The accuracy trend of short and fat is where it's at started around 20 + years ago and now in ELR alot of the newer cartridges are moving away from that but the gains are not there.
The 222 was replaced by the 6ppc. We have the 6BR as well. The 308 replaced the 30-06 the 300 wsm replaced the 300 win mag and accuracy got better.
In ELR which is still in its infancy everyone is searching for velocity due to the distances we shoot at. In the future I think accuracy will end up winning all the matches not velocity.
If we take the 375 cheytac as an example it shoots very well for most reloaders at xxx powder charge. If we step it up to the next node the brass falls apart immediately so to reach that next node we create the 375 Snipetac which operates smoothly at that same velocity but without ruining your brass on one firing or the need to hammer open your bolt.
All of these variants are designed to reach that next velocity window or to get you there without the need for a larger action required by the larger diameter boltface.
As these cases keep getting longer and longer they become less efficient meaning we are burning alot more powder for a small gain in velocity.
Eventually it is my opinion this sport will go through a series of steps then settle down to 3-4 dominant cartridges that will push a moderately high bc bullet around 3050 fps but do it with pin point accuracy.
The blue gun in the picture is Lynns 375/50BMG in a McMillan super benchrest stock. His load is around 206 grains of VV20N29 with a 400 grain bullet and it has won a ELR match in Nevada so it does shoot accurately but barrel life is around 350-400 rounds.
First of all, thank you for your opinion on the ELR cartridge, and yes it seems like the norm for ELR during recent years is to make everything shorter and fatter so you can have a high BC bullet in a relatively short action. As you said the ultimate goal of ELR is to find the balance between velocity and consistency. I'm running 130gr of N570 in my 375 ENabELR and I've got an extreme spread of only 5 in a 10-shot group, and it is punching 1 hole even out to 800yds. However, the velocity is only around 2900ft/s so if I really stretch it could be a problem. I'm now looking for a round that can reach an extreme range like this newly released 416 Vestal because it took me so long to realize that ELR is different from bench rest. Apparently, we don't need every single shot to be in the same hole, but as long they can hit a 36x36 plate at 2 miles then we are more than happy?
And that is a big gun indeed, I've heard the 375/50 BMG's stories before but it seems like people gave up cuz the chamber pressure and accuracy were a problem? And I'm curious how did you guys manage to do loading data research if the barrel only lasted 400 rounds...
Thanks for this offer, much appreciated!!
Can I ask what bullet you’re using and MV you’re getting with it? I would be really keen to know some load/performance data?
And do you know if Manson or JGS make a reamer for the 375HF? Unfortunately im outside of the USA, so I would have to have one made up for me…
I hear alot about chamber pressure but have no idea what those people are talking about. I work up a load until I reach pressure signs then I back it down to a level so the brass survives multiple firings.
Accuracy is very good but because the barrel life is so short some may experience degradation and not realize the barrel is shot out.
On figuring out a load for a cartridge with very little load data I do it 2 ways.
I start very very low in powder charge or I start out with an extremely slow powder not commonly used and work up from there.
So a 375 snipetac can run 147 grains of H50BMG and holds around 158 grains of water.
The 375/50 BMG holds almost double that amount of water so I started at 165 grains and went up in 5 grain increments watching the chronograph and measuring casehead expansion. So 10 rounds will get you there are you can see from the chronograph readings that you can skip a few rounds.
Accuracy is very good but because the barrel life is so short some may experience degradation and not realize the barrel is shot out.
On figuring out a load for a cartridge with very little load data I do it 2 ways.
I start very very low in powder charge or I start out with an extremely slow powder not commonly used and work up from there.
So a 375 snipetac can run 147 grains of H50BMG and holds around 158 grains of water.
The 375/50 BMG holds almost double that amount of water so I started at 165 grains and went up in 5 grain increments watching the chronograph and measuring casehead expansion. So 10 rounds will get you there are you can see from the chronograph readings that you can skip a few rounds.
I tried multiple 400gr bullets and went with the 400gr Cutting Edge Lazers , nothing else was as consistent . With a pretty mild load of 160gr H50 I run them at 3270fps from a 36" barrel and had them up over 3300 in testing. My reamer is a JGS.
You're looking at the accuracy all wrong, these ELR rifles need to be just as accurate as a benchrest rifle and have lower ES and SD numbers to compete, a 14 fps ES across 5 shots at 2 miles will give you over 5 foot of vertical dispersion, and if it's not a 1/4 moa rifle that just adds to that huge group at 2 miles.
The 50cal variants are losing headway also because of inconsistent brass, inconsistent primers and the need for a big 50cal action. What works well in PRS, and benchrest with short fat cases is taking a backseat in ELR with the exception of the 460 Steyrs . The XC cartridges from Tubb, and the 375 Hellfire are great performers but the 450-600 round barrel life is a downfall . The 33xc dominates ELR light class but in heavy the cheytac sized 416 variants are dominating. Last year at King of 2 Miles 7 of the top 18 rifles in the finals were 416 Hellfires. With myself and Stan taking #1 and #2 . The 416 Hellfire and 416 Stroker are a great balance of barrel life and extremely easy to load for with match dominating performance, the new 416 vestal is going to perform great ,but barrel life will be an issue whereas the 458 vestal is going to be an awesome round minus the recoil . I'm extremely anxious to see the 458 vestal perform next weekend at Sand Creek, I know I have at least one shooter showing up with one
I agree with @HellWolf you need the rifle to shoot small groups and have a tiny ES. If you are chasing misses due to group size at distance that ain't gonna cut it and then adding speed variation to the equation you are Effed.
But also you need the velocity to get the projectile to the target and fight wind conditions at the same time.
But also you need the velocity to get the projectile to the target and fight wind conditions at the same time.
Yeah I guess you are right, I forgot that if a gun won't group at 100 yds is not gonna magically shoot tighter groups at longer distances... The barrel life is certainly an issue when you go into relatively small-diameter bullet super magnums with a lot of powder charge. I would have gone for a 416 hellfire if I hadn't ordered the barrel already and 375 merc went down the drain. How many rounds of barrel life are you looking at on a 416 HF? I'm guessing the barrel life is gonna be cut by half on the 416 Vestal?
Some of us old guys started the 1000 yard benchrest game shooting 250 grain Sierra Matchkings which are no longer made in 30-378 Weatherbys at top speed.
Heavy recoil and short barrel life and an occasional win in the wind gave way to extreme accuracy 6BR's with great bullets and lots of wins.
It's just a matter of sorting it out in ELR and that usually takes a solid decade so we are getting closer.
Heavy recoil and short barrel life and an occasional win in the wind gave way to extreme accuracy 6BR's with great bullets and lots of wins.
It's just a matter of sorting it out in ELR and that usually takes a solid decade so we are getting closer.
Why would i give out tech so thers can do what i do ? Sorry . How its done has been asked by cnc manufactors and brass manufactors for several years now . All i will say is that its all turned on a lathe inside and out body, inside and outside including shoulder and neck .
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Lol I'm just bugging you.
I just find it funny how making a piece of brass is such a secret
Ill explain it to you when one company has spent the time and research money and energy to devlope a process for manufactoring for advancement why would any one think that technology should be shared so some one else could copy what thay do. And benifit from someone else's hard work. The idea of that any one should be expected share propriatory designs and technology is a socialistic liberal mindset. And any one who thinks that it should be shared for the betterment of the industry Is a entitled liberal .Lol I'm just bugging you.
I just find it funny how making a piece of brass is such a secret
I don't expect you to publish your secrets and manufacturing methods. I am perfectly fine with that. I was just curious.
What are you doing with this proprietary process? Are you starting up your own brass company?
Yes, we all know the titans of CNC, but even they can't make cases just by turning. As has been discussed, the neck and shoulder section has to be roll formed. Yes, that is done on a (CNC) lathe, but roll forming/spin forming and turning are not the same thing.
So what does roll forming/ spin forming look like on a lathe? Could that be added to a machine like that?
Besides @badassgunworks said this above "All i will say is that its all turned on a lathe inside and out body, inside and outside including shoulder and neck."
I was illustrating a type of machine that could do all that work. There are single spindle type Swiss lathe that could do the same thing just would take a little longer. Cartridge cases don't have to be made from just brass as well. Those materials might not be as conducive to roll forming.
Edit: Not many people understand machining technology and what is or is not possible with what machines. Not everybody has the same knowledge or understanding as you might.
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Many materials can be spin formed. Even pipes made of steel. I agree, brass is not as conductive as copper but annealing makes it possible. I think badassgunworks had better speak for himself. The information I have is not from him. I say the base brass cylinder is turned and reamed on a lathe, and the shoulder/neck section gets annealed and formed by spin forming.
I believe 100% that you can attach rollers tools to a lathe. 15 minutes youtube search and you will find it. Search the words "spin forming lathe", "roll forming lathe".
He went bankrupt cause he knew. nothing about the industry or how to run a busness did not do his own devlopment and research and testing. Knew nothing about cartridge design . And so on. I was making lathe turned brass before he ever existed . It's not a profitable venture it is a results based venture you don't make a business slowly based off of Manufacturing standard every day Factory cartridge designs the manufacturing of custom cartridges is to feed the entire custom built package
I think in 20-30 years no one will be talking about brass cases. I'm sure caseless ammo is the future, 3D-printed propellants... after that, rail and coil guns will take over.
Or someone finds a way to build the 2 stage light gas gun system into a normal sized rifle.
Or someone finds a way to build the 2 stage light gas gun system into a normal sized rifle.
Well yea, check out the new cadex CDX-R7-SPTR with the 6.8 true velocity cartridge. They gotta recoup their R&D somehow since they weren't selected as part of the down select for NGSW.
I took a look at it. Do you know how much pressure these polymer cases can withstand? When it comes to higher pressure, the case is most often the weak link. If I remember correctly, the 6.8mm was designed for higher operating pressures, 80000 psi or so.
Here is a picture of an idea for caseless ammo. With caseless ammo you don't have the whole case issue. That's why I think it will be the future in 20-30 years.
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For you everything is a joke that can not handle at least 95000 psi lol. You even make an air rifle run at 95000 psi.
(No offense)
The ability of a polymer case to handle pressure should not be taken in the context of a traditional case design. Nor can polymer be used is the same manner as brass. When applied correctly with a suitable grade, polymers have been used at pressures exceeding those seen with brass without the potential for chamber cutting which is an every present danger when brass is used at the +100k psi pressure levels.
So I would agree at this time that using polymers to replace brass "as is" is not ideal.
Printed propellant shows promise for controlling the behavior of the next generation types as the geometry can be optimized. However there is a quantum jump when moving from more traditional propellant types and some very considerable research is required. The jump to what is essentially small arms is a whole level different problem. That said the energy density can be phenomenal leading to smaller and lighter systems.
Now the concept of the delivery of kinetic energy to the target becomes the next problem. Limitations persist with ToF.
So I would agree at this time that using polymers to replace brass "as is" is not ideal.
Printed propellant shows promise for controlling the behavior of the next generation types as the geometry can be optimized. However there is a quantum jump when moving from more traditional propellant types and some very considerable research is required. The jump to what is essentially small arms is a whole level different problem. That said the energy density can be phenomenal leading to smaller and lighter systems.
Now the concept of the delivery of kinetic energy to the target becomes the next problem. Limitations persist with ToF.
What about combustion cases for small arms? like the tank ammunition. Most tanks run all over 110000 psi chamber pressure and that with high volume.
Development of ammunition with combustible case for small arms....
To many of you this may sound like silly stuff, that's okay, but I'm at least trying to think outside the box about what's next and what improvements we'll see in the firearms industry in the next few years.
The trend is to go for higher pressure. The 6.8/277 Sig, NGSW, three-piece hybrid cases, better brass alloys, lathe turned brass cases, etc. I am curious to see in the future how far the boundaries can be pushed.
Same Thing with Actions...
By the way, if anyone is wondering why my English is not perfect, it has to do with the fact that I am a German.
To many of you this may sound like silly stuff, that's okay, but I'm at least trying to think outside the box about what's next and what improvements we'll see in the firearms industry in the next few years.
The trend is to go for higher pressure. The 6.8/277 Sig, NGSW, three-piece hybrid cases, better brass alloys, lathe turned brass cases, etc. I am curious to see in the future how far the boundaries can be pushed.
Same Thing with Actions...
By the way, if anyone is wondering why my English is not perfect, it has to do with the fact that I am a German.
What's old is new. I still remember the G11 and Styer with their caseless ammunition.
Living in the states or still in Germany?
I get what you are saying. What is next? The hard part is overcoming the "Fuds" aka "all I need is papi's old 30-30".
Anyways, exciting to see what might become available as technology advances. HK and Styer were both working on caseless ammunition. Cool designs and concepts but I don't think we were at the technological stage to really make it feasible ammunition wise. If the wall hadn't come down I think the focus would have continued on that technology and someone would have figured it out but when the wall came down so did the threat and so did the "need" so the G11 project was shelved imo.
I get what you are saying. What is next? The hard part is overcoming the "Fuds" aka "all I need is papi's old 30-30".
Anyways, exciting to see what might become available as technology advances. HK and Styer were both working on caseless ammunition. Cool designs and concepts but I don't think we were at the technological stage to really make it feasible ammunition wise. If the wall hadn't come down I think the focus would have continued on that technology and someone would have figured it out but when the wall came down so did the threat and so did the "need" so the G11 project was shelved imo.
I still live in germany but I hope to make it to the usa in the next 10 years. The USA is a much better country. Without getting too far off topic, German restrictions and bans are ridiculous. I love DD stuff but here they always remain untouchable for me. I think another problem with improvements and advancements is that people are either happy with what they have or they get scared when they hear numbers like 80,000 or 90,000 psi. I mean yes, 90,000 psi chamber pressure 1 foot from the face sounds scary to some. But sometimes you just have to trust the action and the technology.
I really appreciate people who build and develop their own stuff. Like this guy here with his custom build. No other ELR cartridge can hold a candle to this beast when it comes to pure performance.
ELR researcher had one of these that he was working on and is now for sale. https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-brass-set-or-part-out.6944186/#post-11202710
I am interested in seeing new stuff being developed and then, hopefully it be made attainable to the masses.
I left Germany in August after visiting family down in Bavaria (Mettenheim, Ulm, Kaufbeuren/Neugoblonz areas). We did a couple of days in Czech to visit the old family home (back from when that area was Sudetenland).
Anyways, back to the program
ELR researcher had one of these that he was working on and is now for sale. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/50-20-rifle-project-–-component-set-tooling-presses-brass-set-or-part-out.6944186/#post-11202710
I am interested in seeing new stuff being developed and then, hopefully it be made attainable to the masses.
I left Germany in August after visiting family down in Bavaria (Mettenheim, Ulm, Kaufbeuren/Neugoblonz areas). We did a couple of days in Czech to visit the old family home (back from when that area was Sudetenland).
Anyways, back to the program
If you want we can talk, send me a pm or i send one to you. I don't want to get too far off topic here. On topic, yes ELR researcher had this 20mm project but he has no results as he never finished it...
I am trying to remember another firearms manufacturer that tried to introduce caseless ammunition but for the life of me I can't remember who it was.
Textron was working on something recently. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-could-be-the-armys-next-standard-issue-rifle
The rate of fire of the G11 was crazy! https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/12/11/hk-g11-caseless-rifle-action-rare-footage/
We had some pretty radical exploration when it can to weapons tech during the cold war. I know my uncle played with it when he was at Nagold.
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