45/70 Reduced Loads

[EddieNFL]

I was given a Winchester 1885 HW about a year ago and am interested in developing reduced loads. I have moulds for 300 and 405 RNFPs and have a couple hundred each cast and sized. I've used reduced loads in bottlenecked but never straight walled and I recall reading about the possibility of ringed chambers (McLerran, maybe?) because of the excessive space between the charge and bullet. In bottlenecked I used shotshell buffer as filler and it worked great, but I'm not sure about straight walled (that's a lot of buffer). I estimate about 25-30 grains should fill the empty space. No problem adding to bullet weight and adjusting the charge accordingly, but sure would like to hear from someone with experience.

Thanks for (constructive) input.

 

[Clark]

Almost any powder seems to work in the 45/70, rifle or pistol, but for what you are asking Unique.
I have worked up in 405 gr cast from 15 gr up to 32 gr case destruction. I imagine you could work down to a few gr. The 405 will not fire with just the primer, but the Lead balls will.

It is a complex process to get a 45/70 to sound like a BB gun and kill a coon with a body shot. That keeps the powder charge down around one grain. I suspect your noisy but accurate lite loads with 5 gr Unique and either of your bullets will do fine. For lite 45/70 loads I prefer .458" 145 gr Collar button bullet Lyman mould #457130 from Western Bullet co MT
.45 Rifle Caliber

 

[EddieNFL]

Thanks for the input, Clark. Judging by the lack of response, I guess there aren't many handloaders here.

I don't have much of a raccoon problem, just looking for a load that's accurate and won't beat my shoulder to death. I have Unique, Trail Boss, 4227 and 4759 and several others that appear suitable. I may try the super light bullets just to see what I can do. Part of the fun.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Most of the time I load a 405gr cast over 15 gr Unique. This gets about 1250 fps in my 18.5" Marlin.

Here are my chrono results with Unique, and 405 gr cast, in the 18.5" Marlin, I used no filler.


405gr Laser Cast
Rem Brass
CCI 200 primer

Unique
16gr - 1300 fps
15gr - 1250 fps
14gr - 1190 fps
13gr - 1120 fps
12gr - 1050 fps

 

[JoshcBoucher]

OH, contrare, Sir!

Lot's of loaders, here. Just not for 45-70. Not a popular "sniper" load. I love the cartridge, although I went the other way. I bought a Miroku/Winchester 1886, and shot the factory stuff. Too soft, for me, so I loaded up into the Marlin realm, by my book, and close to the Ruger single shot loads. BANG!!! Got pretty close to the .458 ? After dealing with a bruised shoulder, I moved back down, some, and found a "good" area, for me. Interested in the responses here, also. Are you feeling. That the "made for Antiques" loads are too much? I bought a pad for mine. Mr Clark had some nice info. I'll lurk.

Thanks for the input, Clark. Judging by the lack of response, I guess there aren't many handloaders here.

I don't have much of a raccoon problem, just looking for a load that's accurate and won't beat my shoulder to death. I have Unique, Trail Boss, 4227 and 4759 and several others that appear suitable. I may try the super light bullets just to see what I can do. Part of the fun.

 

[bobke]

I've used 31.5 4198 with 340 cast Hp's and either a small piece of tissue over powder and a tuft of Dacron filler or measured amount of shotshell buffer to compress powder enough to hold it in place. Have shot some 2" groups at 100yds with Merit aperture sights and that load in a Marlin 45-70 with minor felt recoil in a 7.5lb rifle length barrel. Only load I use and powerful enough for most any end use. Paul Matthews has a couple of great reference books you might find at Wolfe Publishing.

 

[EddieNFL]

Lot's of loaders, here.

Lots of reloaders, not so many handloaders. My heavy recoil days are a decade or so behind me. I just want to shoot something that doesn't require me to put a bag of shot between the stock and my shoulder so I can drive home. I wanted a 45/70 since I was about ten reading Louis L'amour books. Would like to add a levergun. I have Matthews book on the .45/70 and also the one on paperpatching. I started casting in the 70s, but have never tried paper jackets.

Pretty sure I have a keg of 4198 and I know I have dacron and buffer. Also have some 350s I acquired somewhere.

Montana, how clean do the Laser Cast shoot? The 350s I have are LC.

The bullets I have cast so far, hit 18-20 on the hardness scale. Probably too hard for the velocities I'm looking at. Wouldn't be the first time I've dumped a batch back into the dutch oven.

Thanks, guys.

 

[EddieNFL]

Not a popular "sniper" load.

It was at one time.

 

[RyeDaddy]

6 grains of unique chrono'd 700 FPS from my 18.5" Marlin with a 405 grain bullet. I stuffed a cotton ball on top of the powder charge to keep it against the primer. No issues for me in a couple of hundred rounds.

That's the only light loading I did with a 45-70.

 

[MontanaMarine]

...Montana, how clean do the Laser Cast shoot?.....

Eddie, When my Marlin was new it leaded up badly after about four rounds. Enough to start throwing bullets sideways at 100 yards.

I fire-lapped the barrel with 20 rounds of 600 grit lapping compound. After that, the cast shoot pretty clean, I've shot 40+ rounds at a time, with minimal leading that didn't affect accuracy.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Here was a target before firelapping. Three tight, two loose, then sideways.

 

[bobke]

Montana-
You ever determine if the was any restriction in bore under area barrel threads into receiver-prior to lapping? Found it in a fair percentage of revolver barrels-but never did check my Marlin, as it shot hard cast .459 diameter bullets both accurately and without leading. Curious to other's experience when lapping for cast bullets.

 

[Clark]

If the case has a metal filler, 1 gr of pistol powder can move a 155 gr bullet at 400 fps. That will stop a 20 pound coon with a body shot and sound like a BB gun. Even if it is legal to shoot at your house, if you start shooting at coons coming out of your hen house at midnight, the neighbors will not like it if they can hear it.

While you can kill a coon with a 22 CB short that sounds like a BB gun, that has to be brain shot. You can do that if they hold real still in a tree. But running out of the hen house, a body shot is all you get.

Without the metal filler, you would need several grains of powder to get 400 fps, and that will make gas with more than one atmosphere of pressure above ambient at the muzzle, causing super sonic gas escapement, and a loud bang. When the gas slows down to sub sonic, a wave propagates of amplitude 2 atmospheres trough zero atmospheres, the threshold of cavitation. That is much noise as a gun can make. The bigger the gas ball at transition, the more lower frequency. That is why big guns sound deeper... bigger supersonic gas ball.

You can't just push the bullet down in the case to get higher expansion ratio. The jump to lands is too far and accuracy will be lost. The high velocity and low noise can be attained that way, but only good for short range low accuracy.

 

[MontanaMarine]

No I didn't go that deep into it. I just firelapped. It seems ok now.

I'm a member over on Marlin Owner's forum and have read a fair bit there, regarding the restrictions you mention though.


I started off with a scope, but went to XS ghost rings to keep it handy carrying. It makes a plenty accurate 'thing hitter'.

 

[EddieNFL]

My bore looks pretty smooth (haven't scoped it). I shot a box of factory jacketed right after I got the rifle. After fouling the bore I fired a five shot group that went just over 1-1/2". Not bad for aperture sights and my old eyes. I ordered a smaller aperture and a hooded aperture for the front. Can't hurt.

Clark, my neighbors already avoid me like the plague. I live in an "eclectic" neighborhood. Judging by the election signs I've seen in their yard, I'm pretty sure the folks to the east are not firearm enthusiasts.

 

[EddieNFL]

Montana, it doesn't appear either of the photos are reversed, so...you shoot ambidextrous?

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Montana, it doesn't appear either of the photos are reversed, so...you shoot ambidextrous?

Bet that 3rd pic is his son.

 

[MontanaMarine]

I'm a southpaw.

The third pic isn't me. It's a friend from the UK getting some trigger time on the Marlin 45-70. He was lovin it...grin

 

[BDA2]

View attachment 47054View attachment 47055

If the case has a metal filler, 1 gr of pistol powder can move a 155 gr bullet at 400 fps. That will stop a 20 pound coon with a body shot and sound like a BB gun. Even if it is legal to shoot at your house, if you start shooting at coons coming out of your hen house at midnight, the neighbors will not like it if they can hear it.

While you can kill a coon with a 22 CB short that sounds like a BB gun, that has to be brain shot. You can do that if they hold real still in a tree. But running out of the hen house, a body shot is all you get.

Without the metal filler, you would need several grains of powder to get 400 fps, and that will make gas with more than one atmosphere of pressure above ambient at the muzzle, causing super sonic gas escapement, and a loud bang. When the gas slows down to sub sonic, a wave propagates of amplitude 2 atmospheres trough zero atmospheres, the threshold of cavitation. That is much noise as a gun can make. The bigger the gas ball at transition, the more lower frequency. That is why big guns sound deeper... bigger supersonic gas ball.

You can't just push the bullet down in the case to get higher expansion ratio. The jump to lands is too far and accuracy will be lost. The high velocity and low noise can be attained that way, but only good for short range low accuracy.

The amount of knowledge you just expelled has totally blown my mind......

Wow... I'm still trying to comprehend it all.

Posted Via Glade Plug In.

 

[ptaylortx]

I shoot 405 cast over 13 gr of trail boss. Not sure if the velocity, but I figure is around 1000 fps. Very accurate or to 100 as well.

 

[Victor N TN]

I tried to order a Marlin lever action "Guide Gun" stainless in 45/70. For a year and a half the answer was always none in stock. So I finally gave up.

 

[79jeepcj5]

I tried to order a Marlin lever action "Guide Gun" stainless in 45/70. For a year and a half the answer was always none in stock. So I finally gave up.

I picked up a jm stamped (pre Remington) 1895ss a couple weeks ago for 400.00. I added the saddle ring safety delete as soon as I got it. It's to be a companion gun to my 1873 Springfield that coincidentally I also gave 400.00 for (couldn't believe my luck on that one).

I bought the marlin to shoot so I could scavenge the brass and load it down to safely fire in the trapdoor. I could have purchased brass or just pull the bullets on loaded ammo but that's no fun

I'll be following this thread with great interest.

Matt

 

[fncannon]

My rifles like the 405gr Meister over 10.5gr of Unique for a plinking load. The Sharps does its best work with a 535gr Postell, though. Not a boolit I'd try in the magazine guns.

 

[mark5pt56]

Trail Boss is a good plinker and also H4895 using the reduced load data on Hodgdon's site. I don't have the charge weights any longer, but I do recall getting them down to around 850 fps with a 405 hard cast and H4895--follow the directions though and only H4895 can be used for this.

 

[blackfoot]

I was given a Winchester 1885 HW about a year ago and am interested in developing reduced loads. I have moulds for 300 and 405 RNFPs and have a couple hundred each cast and sized. I've used reduced loads in bottlenecked but never straight walled and I recall reading about the possibility of ringed chambers (McLerran, maybe?) because of the excessive space between the charge and bullet. In bottlenecked I used shotshell buffer as filler and it worked great, but I'm not sure about straight walled (that's a lot of buffer). I estimate about 25-30 grains should fill the empty space. No problem adding to bullet weight and adjusting the charge accordingly, but sure would like to hear from someone with experience.

Thanks for (constructive) input.

Burn charcoal in that thing. Problem solved.

 

[EddieNFL]

I had my fun with BP back in the 70s. Ain't going back.

 

[Kinsman]

I load a 405 gr cast over 14 gr of Blue Dot with no filler. Rem 9 1/2 primer. I get about 925 fps out of my Marlin 1895 CB.
I can shoot about 5 min of dirt with it.