50 MOA question

[jacq220]

I have my 10/22 trainer finally complete minus a couple small things that dont matter so much.... i mounted my super sniper and zerod spot on at 25 yards... zeroed out my scope caps, and checked how much more verticle travel i have... it came to right around 50 MOA of up elevation travel before it tops out...
My question is with 50 moa and the ammo listed in the picture how far can i shoot before i have to start using holdovers? I might have to get a 20 moa rail and do some of the other things i saw in the .22 thread that is a few threads down from this one.... if someone would be so kind as to post a drop chart and wind drift chart just to get me onto paper... i am going to be working up loads for my .308 pretty soon but want to get the basics of developing my own drop and wind charts down with the cheaper .22 stuff first...
thanks in advance for the help...
here is a pic of the gun and then the ammo

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: 50 MOA question

Depends on actual velocity of the round, but you should be good to about 300-340 yards.

Range Velocity Elev Wind
(yards) (ft/sec) (moa) (moa)
0 1080 --- ---
20 1051.3 0.96 0.67
40 1025.4 0.94 1.29
60 1002 -1.17 1.89
80 980.8 -3.88 2.47
100 961.4 -6.89 3.03
120 943.7 -10.09 3.57
140 927 -13.44 4.1
160 911.1 -16.92 4.61
180 895.9 -20.51 5.12
200 881.4 -24.22 5.61
220 867.4 -28.02 6.1
240 854 -31.93 6.59
260 841.1 -35.94 7.07
280 828.6 -40.05 7.55
300 816.6 -44.25 8.02
320 804.9 -48.55 8.49
340 793.5 -52.95 8.96
360 782.5 -57.44 9.43
380 771.7 -62.04 9.89
400 761.3 -66.73 10.36

 

[NaHa]

Re: 50 MOA question

Scope rings are WAY too tall. That's excessive clearance, Clarence.

Bullet drop depends on bullet and muzzle velocity. You might try searching on www.rimfirecentral.com for ballpark figures.

 

[jacq220]

Re: 50 MOA question

WOW... for some reason i didnt think i had enough elevation to get to 200.... and you are right about the scope clearance... they are LOW rings though.... dont know what else i can do.

thanks chad i think the MV you posted should be pretty close. i have shot them through the crono but it was at a buddies and i forgot to write it down.. had a SD of around 30 fps i believe and a ES of 50ish if i remember correctly...
the 400 mark
400 761.3 -66.73 10.36
says 10.36 moa of elevation needed but i have 50 am i limited to this distance by the round or by the scopes elevation?
as you can see this is why i am going to be learning all this on the .22 instead of the .308

 

[95LTZ]

Re: 50 MOA question

IIRC from my 100 yard zero it took around 21" high @ 100 to be on @200 yards. 39" high @ 100 yards to be on at 300 yards. 72" high @100 to be on @ 400 yards. I did it this way because where I shoot you can't always see the bullet strike in the dirt to help get you on paper at the longer yardages. I took a drywall square & marked 1" intervals up to 80". After hitting Shoot-N-See targets at those yardages I would come back to my 100 yard 80" target to get an exact numbers of inches high. The end result was 15 rds. into a 17.25" Shoot-N-See @ 400 yards. Now I used all of the 17.25 inches of the target but all 15 rds. were in it. I am still quite proud of that but see that many other 22lr shooters are much better. I am in awe of the groups that some of these guys shoot at 200, 300 & 400 yards.
Semper Fi

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: 50 MOA question

Jacq,

The chart reads range, velocity, elevation, wind (10 mph). The elevation is 66.73 MOA, and the wind is 10.36 MOA. This is all from a 50 yard zero. It would be a little different with a 100 yard zero.

Go to either of these websites, and type in your data. I used a BC of .19 (estimated) and a velocity of 1080. You can vary these inputs and print out several drop charts to take with you in the field.

http://www.mega.nu:8080/traj_dat.html

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj_basic/traj_basic.html

 

[Ratbert]

Re: 50 MOA question

That's 10.36MOA of windage @ 400. Not elevation. It's 66.73MOA of elevation. According to that drop chart you'll run out of elevation around 300yds or so. However I'd suggest you just go out and try shooting some 200yd groups with it in a lightly gusting wind and you might just reconsider if the scope is going to be your limiting factor.

I don't know who told you those were low rings, but they was lying their asses off. Low rings sit ~0.82" over the rail. Break out your calipers, I bet you're more like 1.3"

Regardless, consider getting a Karsten cheek rest for that thing. You can still run the Eagle stock pack on top of it, if you're so inclined.

I love the artfully arranged EoTech, Ar-lower, and short action. Very subtle.

 

[jacq220]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's 10.36MOA of windage @ 400. Not elevation. It's 66.73MOA of elevation. </div></div>

Yep.. read the chart wrong.. thought it was in inches then MOA which is why it wasnt making sense to me... thanks chad and ratbert for that... hopefully this chart will keep me on paper... i plan on moving back 25 yards at a time while figuring this out...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However I'd suggest you just go out and try shooting some 200yd groups with it in a lightly gusting wind and you might just reconsider if the scope is going to be your limiting factor.
</div></div>

I do not have any pipe dreams about what i will be able to do with this setup... but you have to start somewhere right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know who told you those were low rings, but they was lying their asses off. Low rings sit ~0.82" over the rail. Break out your calipers, I bet you're more like 1.3"
</div></div>

you are correct... i just looked at the package and it says medium... will be ordering lows today.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Regardless, consider getting a Karsten cheek rest for that thing. You can still run the Eagle stock pack on top of it, if you're so inclined.
</div></div>

i have about 1/2 an inch of padding under the stockpack and i can get a a really solid and comforitable cheek weld for the most part... i start running into problems when i get into the sling supported position but my testing will be done with both front and rear bags and i feel pretty comforitable with the highth of the comb after adding padding and the stockpack

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I love the artfully arranged EoTech, Ar-lower, and short action. Very subtle. </div></div>

BUSTED! not even going to try to hide it... i did put those in the picture on purpose, but hey why not brag about what i got in my shop while i can... i browse this site often and am ALWAYS jelous of the other shooters and thier rifles/abilities which i come nowhere close to, so i figured i would try and toss a little in the photo wondering if anyone would notice...


do you guys have any words of wisdom for me while i do this... i have a prochrono digital chronograph i am going to try to use but it wasnt picking up my pellets from my pellet rifle when it was sunny the other day so i am not sure how well its going to work.... i will have ALL day to do this and two or three consecutive days if i need them... but i figure this would be the best way to learn... please share all the WISDOM you think i will need for this venture.

 

[NaHa]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WOW... for some reason i didnt think i had enough elevation to get to 200.... and you are right about the scope clearance... they are LOW rings though.... dont know what else i can do.</div></div>

Those look like Burris XTR rings to me, with 6 screws per ring. Keep in mind that terms like "low" are meaningless if you don't know what the actual measurement is, or when comparing one brand of ring to another. Work with numbers, not worthless descriptions like "low".

In the Burris XTR world, "low" means 1/4" as measured from base top to the bottom of the ring bore. That number needs to be adjusted if you want to compare it to most other brands, which often provide the height spec as a measurement of base top to ring CENTERLINE.

So, for a 30mm diameter Burris XTR ring, you take their height and add 15mm to it. Convert that to inches, and for a Burris XTR "low", it's 0.25" plus 0.591" = 0.841".

For a 1" diameter Burris XTR ring, you add the height to 1/2" to get the base top to ring bore center dimension.

Those rings on your rig look WAY taller than 0.841" to me.

Do the math, figure out what you need -- based on the OD of your scope's objective lens assembly divided by two -- plan for a little clearance, and you'll have a better setup.

"Low", "medium", "high" don't mean sh*t unless you KNOW the corresponding dimensions.

 

[jacq220]

Re: 50 MOA question

they are millet tactical... midway ran a sale on them picked them up for 30 bucks... i hope thats all i will need with a 10/22 and a super sniper.... will try and find some lower rings but i will be looking in the 40-50 dollar price range... would the burris work? if so what heighth?

 

[Dogbone]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have my 10/22 trainer finally complete minus a couple small things that dont matter so much.... i mounted my super sniper and zerod spot on at 25 yards... zeroed out my scope caps, and checked how much more verticle travel i have... it came to right around 50 MOA of up elevation travel before it tops out...
My question is with 50 moa and the ammo listed in the picture how far can i shoot before i have to start using holdovers? I might have to get a 20 moa rail and do some of the other things i saw in the .22 thread that is a few threads down from this one.... if someone would be so kind as to post a drop chart and wind drift chart just to get me onto paper... i am going to be working up loads for my .308 pretty soon but want to get the basics of developing my own drop and wind charts down with the cheaper .22 stuff first...
thanks in advance for the help...
here is a pic of the gun and then the ammo
</div></div>


JACO,

Nice build!

here is a Trajectory Listing that should be closer to the ammo you pictured. as always your MV may be different and will change the chart slightly, also your scope height will be different as i am running a 50mm objective this will also change the trajectory a tad. I would recommend a 15MOA base if you do not have one yet along with a Modified V-Block to help eliminate barrel droop that is common in the 10/22.

I hope you can make out the Wind Drift chart below it is based on the drop chart above. First column is range in YDS then 1 through 12 MPH wind drift given in inches.

 

[jacq220]

Re: 50 MOA question

well... with the chart you gave me i should be able to get to 290ish.... which is good for now... after i master that i will think about the modified V block and the canted base... but i havent even pushed the limits on what i have yet so there really is no need to upgrade anything yet... besides the rings... which do need to be lower.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: 50 MOA question

Jacq,

If your going to get new rings consider the Burris Signature 30mm Zee Rings. Those come with the plastic inserts that let you adjust your cant at the scope rather than at the base. You can pick up 10 MOA that way. They sell for around $40. and fit weaver type 1913 bases.

Bob

 

[wksinatl]

Re: 50 MOA question

I doped one of my rifles using fed 510's. I mounted a MK 4 3.5-10x on a tricked out 10/22 (Volquartsen barrel, Kidd trigger, modded'ed bolt, bedded, bug hole tuner, etc). Even though 510's are bulk ammo they shoot damn good in several 22's. Downside is they are dirty as hell and I need to clean the chamber on semi-auto's (10/22's and BuckMarks) to keep them runnin'. I do that about every 250rds.

Anyway, here is what I came up with. The temp was 78 degrees and altitude was 820', no wind. Even w/ just a 10x scope consistent hits at 275 were not hard on metal targets 3 1/4" x3 1/4" squares. My bud's Tony Kidd built rifle was doing the same but he needed a little more elevation on his rifle.

At about 150yds you could see the bullet (not trace) hit the target. At longer ranges it looked more like lobbing in mortar rds but they were making hits. My bud's son (relatively new shooter) was shooting very well at the same distances and making pretty consistent hits. It was as fun to see him shoot good as it was for me to be behind the rifle myself.

Gotta love the .22's

Sighted in at 50yds. These were the scope adjustments.

75yd 2-0
100 5-0
125 7-2
150 14-1
175 16-0
200 20-0
225 24-0
250 27-3
275 33-2

 

[NaHa]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they are millet tactical... midway ran a sale on them picked them up for 30 bucks... i hope thats all i will need with a 10/22 and a super sniper.... will try and find some lower rings but i will be looking in the 40-50 dollar price range... would the burris work? if so what heighth? </div></div>

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[Aries64]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate Haler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they are millet tactical... midway ran a sale on them picked them up for 30 bucks... i hope thats all i will need with a 10/22 and a super sniper.... will try and find some lower rings but i will be looking in the 40-50 dollar price range... would the burris work? if so what heighth? </div></div>

You can lead a horse to water... </div></div>
Nate, once again you tried. Your post was spot-on, but as you just said...

Keith

 

[jacq220]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate Haler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they are millet tactical... midway ran a sale on them picked them up for 30 bucks... i hope thats all i will need with a 10/22 and a super sniper.... will try and find some lower rings but i will be looking in the 40-50 dollar price range... would the burris work? if so what heighth? </div></div>

You can lead a horse to water... </div></div>

??? I am sorry for not having high dollar equipment nor the right sizes.... the rings and the scope were origonally bought to put the scope on on of my AR's however when i did the 10/22 build i needed a scope for it. I got what i got... care to elaborate as to why that comment was made? if there is something inherantly wrong about my set up i would like to know... i am new to this game and just trying to get my feet wet with a .22

now... onto shooting today... i only had access to 25 yards today and what i found out was very humbling... here are some photo's... i didnt do anything with drop yet and have to pick up some more match ammo before i do since i shot so much today.... here are some of the groups let me know if this is good enough accuracy to take this gun out very far... i probably could have done a little better but overal i am pretty happy... i did have some verticle stringing at first but changed how much i torqued my take down screw from 40-20 inch pounds.... from 10-20 the verticles were not as bad so i think i am sticking at 20 inch pounds... also the last target is a result of the thread protector coming loose and wiggling on the end of the barrel as i fired... does not help accuracy at all... anyways here are the targets... let me have it, i dont mind being humbled if they are really bad...

and the loose cap picture

 

[Dogbone]

Re: 50 MOA question

JACO,

not bad for your first trip to the range.

I would try 25 to 28 in pounds on that to try and tighten up those groups.

Try a spot of Threadlocker blue at the base of your threads this should take care of your thread protector from working loose but still make it easy to get loose when you want.

 

[jacq220]

Re: 50 MOA question

i went from 50 inch pounds all the way down to 10 in 5 pound increments... and it liked 20 the best... also tried several types ammo and it liked wolf extra match and SK the best but i can find neither in stock... i also shot up most of my match ammo so i need to get some more before i drive this thing any further... will locktite on the thread protector for sure... i also put a washer in between the barrel and the stock where the action screw goes though, and a small piece of rubber below the action in the rear to completely free float the barrel... this helped with verticle stringing quite a bit and produced the groups i put on this thread....
my question is.... are these groups tite enough (gun accurate enough) to take this out to 200 yards? 300 yards? or will i be wasting my time? i tried and couldnt get the groups any smaller that what i posted but i was able to get the groups i posted pretty consistantly.

 

[YAOG]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YAOG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

i went from 50 inch pounds all the way down to 10 in 5 pound increments... and it liked 20 the best... also tried several types ammo and it liked wolf extra match and SK the best but i can find neither in stock... i also shot up most of my match ammo so i need to get some more before i drive this thing any further... will locktite on the thread protector for sure... i also put a washer in between the barrel and the stock where the action screw goes though, and a small piece of rubber below the action in the rear to completely free float the barrel... this helped with verticle stringing quite a bit and produced the groups i put on this thread....
my question is.... are these groups tite enough (gun accurate enough) to take this out to 200 yards? 300 yards? or will i be wasting my time? i tried and couldnt get the groups any smaller that what i posted but i was able to get the groups i posted pretty consistantly. </div></div>

Jacq,

Midway has SK Standard and Federal Premium Gold Medal .22LR in stock right now. I just ordered several boxes last night and they shipped today. So get them while you can!

Cheers!

 

[Dogbone]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i went from 50 inch pounds all the way down to 10 in 5 pound increments... and it liked 20 the best... also tried several types ammo and it liked wolf extra match and SK the best but i can find neither in stock... i also shot up most of my match ammo so i need to get some more before i drive this thing any further... will locktite on the thread protector for sure... i also put a washer in between the barrel and the stock where the action screw goes though, and a small piece of rubber below the action in the rear to completely free float the barrel... this helped with verticle stringing quite a bit and produced the groups i put on this thread....
my question is.... are these groups tite enough (gun accurate enough) to take this out to 200 yards? 300 yards? or will i be wasting my time? i tried and couldnt get the groups any smaller that what i posted but i was able to get the groups i posted pretty consistantly. </div></div>

I think you will get it out to 200 or 300 you just need a bit of tweaking. take a look at the link i put in below you might give it a try if you haven't all ready done so.

Pillar bedding

 

[Ratbert]

Re: 50 MOA question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate Haler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JACQ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they are millet tactical... midway ran a sale on them picked them up for 30 bucks... i hope thats all i will need with a 10/22 and a super sniper.... will try and find some lower rings but i will be looking in the 40-50 dollar price range... would the burris work? if so what heighth? </div></div>

You can lead a horse to water... </div></div>

??? I am sorry for not having high dollar equipment nor the right sizes.... the rings and the scope were origonally bought to put the scope on on of my AR's however when i did the 10/22 build i needed a scope for it. I got what i got... care to elaborate as to why that comment was made? if there is something inherantly wrong about my set up i would like to know... i am new to this game and just trying to get my feet wet with a .22

</div></div>

Go back and look at Nate's original post:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nate Haler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Those look like Burris XTR rings to me, with 6 screws per ring. Keep in mind that terms like "low" are meaningless if you don't know what the actual measurement is, or when comparing one brand of ring to another. Work with numbers, not worthless descriptions like "low".

In the Burris XTR world, "low" means 1/4" as measured from base top to the bottom of the ring bore. That number needs to be adjusted if you want to compare it to most other brands, which often provide the height spec as a measurement of base top to ring CENTERLINE.

So, for a 30mm diameter Burris XTR ring, you take their height and add 15mm to it. Convert that to inches, and for a Burris XTR "low", it's 0.25" plus 0.591" = 0.841".

For a 1" diameter Burris XTR ring, you add the height to 1/2" to get the base top to ring bore center dimension.

Those rings on your rig look WAY taller than 0.841" to me.

Do the math, figure out what you need -- based on the OD of your scope's objective lens assembly divided by two -- plan for a little clearance, and you'll have a better setup.

"Low", "medium", "high" don't mean sh*t unless you KNOW the corresponding dimensions.
</div></div>

He told you specifically how YOU can determine what rings are appropriate for YOU and YOUR scope. It isn't about how much money you've spent, it's about how much brain power you spent.

 

[jacq220]

Re: 50 MOA question

Clear now... thanks, i didnt even realize that he was teaching me to measure ring heigth and use a numerical value for the measurement instead of high medium or low... thank you for pointing that out, i will measure as soon as i get home.

 

[i_rep]

Re: 50 MOA question

These are available it would take two the (6) screw is severe overkill.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Burris-XTR-Medium-1-...p3286.m20.l1116

They also make a "Medium" 1/2" height with (4) screws that run like 55 bucks a pair.

Your on the right track.

Good luck,
Mark

 

[buffybuster]

Re: 50 MOA question

JACQ,

With Wolf MT 300yds is about 48moa with a 50yd zero. HV ammo might give you 30-40 more yds. The wind REALLY plays with the groups. About 7" groups are the best I can do (3-4" wide, 7" vertical stringing).

Good shooting