500-700 elk/deer lightest recoil?

[RTH1800]

OP,
I assume the 500-700 elk rifle is referring to the range it is to be shot? Or the number of elk to be shot with it?
Are shots less than 500 ?? yards/meters?? to be passed up?
I have shot quite a few elk and never needed to shoot one beyond 300 yards that I recall. I am quite capable of doing so but in most elk range visibility is limited.

Get some standard chambering in a mid weight rifle and a good bullet and put it in the right spot. It will work.

 

[wade2big]

While you’re debating magnums I’m eating backstrap. Every. Single. Year.

I don’t recommend.223 for everyone, but after over 100 big game animals (including elk and bear) my statements aren’t opinions.

I’ve given you the measurements. Now it’s up to you to explain why it takes a magnum to punch through ONE INCH of animal with a little energy left over.

I wont argue your results with your .223 kills. I won’t argue that a magnum is needed either as I don’t think they are either. I will argue your ONE INCH statement as it is misleading. One inch of penetration will not touch vitals. It would result in a small animal running off much less a large one. A bullet would need to travel several inches in a broadside shot to be lethal. It better make it closer to the center of the body mass or your animal may die but way over there where it may not be found.

I killed many deer with a 30 carbine in front of the shoulder. Kills them dead.

 

[b6graham]

I wont argue your results with your .223 kills. I won’t argue that a magnum is needed either as I don’t think they are either. I will argue your ONE INCH statement as it is misleading. One inch of penetration will not touch vitals. It would result in a small animal running off much less a large one. A bullet would need to travel several inches in a broadside shot to be lethal. It better make it closer to the center of the body mass or your animal may die but way over there where it may not be found.

I killed many deer with a 30 carbine in front of the shoulder. Kills them dead.

Hes saying theres one inch of thick tough stuff before you get into soft tissue. Not 1" until vitals

 

[Evolution 9]

Actually, yes. Measured. ONE INCH and then you’re inside the chest cavity and the nose of the bullet is touching lungs. Obviously you need a little left over energy to damage vitals (very little, lungs are extremely fragile).

I have photos somewhere with a measuring tape. There’s a chance I can dig them up.

 

[RTH1800]

Early season bulls can have a lot of fat as well. Even on ribs. 1-3” at times.

 

[Evolution 9]

That would certainly change the measurement but the effect on the ballistic requirements would be minimal. Fat is pretty easy stuff.

BTW, odd anecdote, a double lung shot with 60 grain v-max will usually pass entirely through and exit the elk. DRT. If the bullet strikes the heart it will turn it to jelly and then stop. Also DRT.

It never ceases to amaze me... I hear the deep reports of countless magnum rounds fired (obviously without success) at a bull... then I drop one in its tracks with one well placed shot... and I’m the one ridiculed about ethics ?

Ethics is putting the hole where it’s needed and passing up the shot if you can’t. The penis size of the rifle in a hunter’s hand doesn’t do jack shit to establish his ethics as a hunter.

 

[Caveman0101]

I faced the same dilemma when my sons came of hunting age. I did not want to ever give them a reason to develop a flinch. With my oldest, because he was large for his age (he's 6'2 220lbs at 17 right now) I chose a 280 rem with a muzzle brake. For my youngest (small for his age 15 and still under 100lbs) I went with the 260 rem with muzzle brake. Both rifles have taken elk past 600 yards, in fact, we've killed 20 in the last 6 years with them all DRT no tracking. Both rifle's recoil is so light you can watch your own shot hit the target. I've left my 340 and 300wbys in the safe since I've seen how effective these calibers are, no need to punish yourself. I'd say bullet selection is of upmost importance just behind bullet placement. We shoot the 150gr ABLRs in the 280 and 142gr ABLRs in the 260, they are all I hunt with anymore. We've taken a truckload of elk, deer (WT & Muleys) from 50- 700yards and they simply do the job. So I'd suggest something in .284 but as long as you go toward the heavier bullet selection the .264 is also adequate. By the way, I hunted for 25+ years with magnums and I can't say they killed elk any deader than the 280 and 260 do at least not with today's bullets.

 

[Primus]

300wm is tame to shoot, easy to find, wild vareity of bullet selection and has enough ass to kill a mature bull out to 500 yards. Never understand why someone would risk the thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of prep in something that is already hard enough. If you want a real challenge, trying archery elk. Otherwise don't be a fool.

 

[Primus]

When striking the vitals, there is literally 1 inch (ONE) of hide, and rib or muscle before the bullet is inside the vital organs. I’ve measured.

The ridiculous notion of our grandfathers day that we need massive bone crushing energy and retained weight to drop elk are disproved every time I drop one with a .223.

It’s time for those stupid notions to die a long agonizing death.

ONE INCH. I’d almost struggle to name a centerfire round that isn’t capable of this.

If you strike the vitals, .223 and up are excellent, including past 500 yards. DRT. I’ve seen it. DOZENS of times.

If your capability and decisions dictate that a shoulder may be struck, I’d definitely lean more towards grandpa’s advice, but at 500 yards, I’ve seen an elk shoulder stop two 180 grain bonded rounds from a 300 Win Mag, so all bets are off if you can’t hit the vitals directly.

This has got to be one of the most autistic and retarded posts I have ever read on here. Our grandfather's used to chain smoke and drink whiskey by the gallon. They also we're poor and had zero choices and we're trying to put food on the table. Ethical kills and sportsmanship we're about 999 out of 1000 on the priority list.

Anyone who has elk hunted knows how hard it is and how small your window of opportunity may be if you are lucky enough to get it. Marginal shots are a reality and you need all the margin of error that is practical. Chasing down a wounded animal in heavy timber is about the least fun thing you can do with your cloths on.

Posts like yours are a diservice to the community.

 

[Primus]

What about the lowly 168 from a 308?

Ok can you repeat it? What's the confidence level? If a guy kills an elephant with a .22 from 1500 yards it doesn't mean its a good idea. Idiots shooting large game at range with marginal chamberings should get hit by busses. They are fucktards in the most serious way.

 

[Evolution 9]

Primus,

You can try to discredit repeatable physical measurements, their relation to repeatable ballistic testing, and the PROVEN results of well over 100 big game animals all you want. I’m not the one you’ll be discrediting...

 

[spife7980]

Primus,

You can try to discredit repeatable physical measurements, their relation to repeatable ballistic testing, and the PROVEN results of well over 100 big game animals all you want. I’m not the one you’ll be discrediting...

He sure as hell won’t be the only one. Shooting an elk with a vmax is fucking retarded.

 

[Primus]

This guy's doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about clearly. It's comical at this point.

 

[Evolution 9]

Spife... reading comprehension. My last sentence doesn’t say what you think it says.

Primus, if you have contradicting information that might invalidate physical measurements, scientific ballistic tests, and well over 100 real world results I’m genuinely interested to hear it. Until then, your ad hominem posts say a lot more about you than they do about me.

 

[eightyeight mag]

Just about every state that has an elk hunting season requires a minimum 24 caliber centerfire.

Must be a lot of elk wandering around those Idaho mountains with 22cal slugs in them.

 

[Evolution 9]

Eightyeight,

My real world facts trump your guess.

Listening to some of you is literally like listening to someone denying gravity while they stand firmly on the Earth.

This IS happening... consistently... for decades...

It’s not up for debate... we don’t get to sit around and create theories about the possibility of it working or not. It IS HAPPENING.

If you read my posts in this thread you’ll see that I’m not suggesting the OP choose a 223. I’m merely stating that since he specifically requested LOW RECOIL, the oft repeated mantra of heavy magnum rounds is inappropriate and completely unnecessary. A 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 would be more than sufficient and meet the OP’s recoil requirement.

I simply proved this (well beyond any reasonable doubt) by demonstrating the ability of a far weaker round to take elk in the real world.

Despite the settled proven nature of my statements, I’ve welcomed FACTS that might serve to undermine my position...

Crickets

All that’s been offered instead is OPINIONS (that something that’s constantly and consistently working... won’t work) and ad hominem attacks.

Ironically, my first experience with a .223 on elk was the result of a hunter with a belted magnum injuring a bull without creating a fatal wound. The bull was about to enter heavy timber in very steep terrain, and none of the magnum’s follow up shots were hitting the bull. There was nothing to lose from trying. The results were what you’d expect if you understand anatomy and terminal ballistics.

 

[Vereor]

Are consistent clean ethical kills of elk possible in light recoil guns?

Im no hunter, but the laws of physics and terminal ballistics / bullet expansion seem to suggest those 2 objectives are at odds with each other.

Yes, and easily. Pick the correct bullet and no issue.

No offense, but I don't think the 6.5cm is up to the task of a 700yd elk.

666 yards. 130gr Berger Hybrid. Shot bedded. Left 1.5” exit wound through offside humerus. Elk died within 5ft.

I and multiple people I’ve hunted with have hunted with and used every bullet diameter from .224 to .338. In every case placement, and bullet type were the determining factors in outcome- not bullet diameter or heavy recoil.




To the OP-

Personally I’d rock a 6.5 Creedmoor with good 130-140gr bullets and not think twice. I dig Berger and ELD-M’s in general, but bullets such as Federal’s Edge TLR have made going from muzzle to 1,800fps or so impact velocity no problem on the elk for the masses.

 

[Vereor]

Evolution 9,

Have you tried the Sierra 77gr TMK’s yet? If not, that is a nasty bullet for game.

 

[wade2big]

Yes, and easily. Pick the correct bullet and no issue.





666 yards. 130gr Berger Hybrid. Shot bedded. Left 1.5” exit wound through offside humerus. Elk died within 5ft.


View attachment 7126417





I and multiple people I’ve hunted with have hunted with and used every bullet diameter from .224 to .338. In every case placement, and bullet type were the determining factors in outcome- not bullet diameter or heavy recoil.




To the OP-

Personally I’d rock a 6.5 Creedmoor with good 130-140gr bullets and not think twice. I dig Berger and ELD-M’s in general, but bullets such as Federal’s Edge TLR have made going from muzzle to 1,800fps or so impact velocity no problem on the elk for the masses.

Is that a SWFA 3-9? How do you like it. I have been thinking of picking one up either in the exchange here when one pops up or during a sale. I am guessing that is a factory Tikka lite too.

 

[Evolution 9]

Evolution 9,

Have you tried the Sierra 77gr TMK’s yet? If not, that is a nasty bullet for game.

Yes, that’s been my go to round for a while. Absolutely devastating.

That’s the bullet that dropped both of the elk pictured previously.

 

[BridgerWSS]

Evolution 9,

Have you tried the Sierra 77gr TMK’s yet? If not, that is a nasty bullet for game.

Vereor, so far they work well for me. Apparently you and Evolution9 and myself are imhumane liars though. ?

 

[Vereor]

Is that a SWFA 3-9? How do you like it. I have been thinking of picking one up either in the exchange here when one pops up or during a sale. I am guessing that is a factory Tikka lite too.

It is. I/we have better than two dozen. That particular scope has more than 120,000 documented rounds on it before being moved to a hunting rifle. I have another with more than 100,000 on it and several with between 50k and 70k rounds on them. They are spectacular aiming devices. Easily the best 3-9x on the market for dialing no matter the cost.

Yes, that’s been my go to round for a while. Absolutely devastating.

That’s the bullet that dropped both of the elk pictured previously.

People can’t grasp what that bullet does to tissue.

303 yards.

110 yards

 

[5RWill]

Jesus this got off track quickly. I was reading to see what builds everyone recommended.

Anywho to @Gobears16 i was in the same situation for my father two years ago, went 6.5 SAUM for the exact reason as mentioned. It has plenty of energy for most anything in NA and doesn't recoil much, hell in his rifle doesn't recoil nearly as bad as his 6lb 308. I think PRC is the obvious answer here as many mentioned. Ours is 9lbs without the can and bipod as spec'd below.
Bighorn SR3
3B fluted finished at 23"
APA RTG
MCS-T bedded
TT special
Zeiss V6 3-18x50

I'd also personally build that's just me, but you get exactly what you want the first time around and given a quality smith you usually don't have to worry about it not shooting.

If wanting to remain as light as possible i'd do this. The more i use the Origin in my brother's 308 the more i absolutely love this little action also.
Bighorn Origin - $825
Proof Sendero lite - $650
KRG Bravo - ($300ish) disclaimer there are more balanced stocks but it really can compliment a light build if he's okay with the pistol grip
TT Special - 120-140
Leupold VX6HD/Zeiss V6 if SFP is his thing or Mark 5/NX8 if he is alright with FFP.

Smithing of course is going to be 450ish depending. That's $2350 all said and done for the rifle and you could cut some of that down by going with a 3B instead of the proof. Though where i think the proof would really aid with the bravo is balance. If you have a bravo or ever held one with the barreled action it's front heavy.

 

[LongRangeLefty]

Everyone has their fave. I’d load up the 223 with some 80 gr and be all set

 

[LongRangeLefty]

It is. I/we have better than two dozen. That particular scope has more than 120,000 documented rounds on it before being moved to a hunting rifle. I have another with more than 100,000 on it and several with between 50k and 70k rounds on them. They are spectacular aiming devices. Easily the best 3-9x on the market for dialing no matter the cost.







People can’t grasp what that bullet does to tissue.

303 yards.
View attachment 7126503

View attachment 7126504


110 yards

View attachment 7126511
View attachment 7126513

SWFA is the bomb. Clear glass and super rugged for a great price. I’ve had the 20x42 on my .308 RPR for a good couple years now. Can’t say enough good about it

 

[Hobo Hilton]

OJ, I'll play the "Devil's Advocate" here..... I'm in the West, near the Slope, 3,000' elevation. Why would an Old Guy (OG) want to hike that far to retrieve an elk or deer? We have bow hunters taking trophy animals, clean kills, at less than 50 yards. Routinely a deer is dropped, in the garden (Legally), with an air rifle while standing on the porch. That long range shot is sounding like work to me.

Hobo

 

[hollowoutadime]

If he's going to shoot it that often, get a tbac can for it. Shouldn't change POI and the recoil reduction and sound suppression makes practicing much more enjoyable. He can put on ears if hunts without it.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Traditional still works fine.

This cartridge. The rifle, the Winchester M70 Featherlight Long Action. This Scope.

The Ammunition is available, accurate, effective, and inexpensive enough to shoot as a practice round too. For practice applications where shooting the actual distance is not required, this round is fine for training at distances out to 200-300yd. Sighted at 200yd, both rounds run at a fairly close trajectory out to 250yd.

I am currently working on handloads for 125gr and 178gr ELD-X bullets and will post them when I'm confident that they can hit the mark, and inexpensively enough to use in adequate quantity.

My test rifle is the Savage Axis II 30-06, upgraded considerably, and in many ways, it emulates the featherweight that I used for decades as my deer rifle, and then gifted to the younger generation.

The Vortex also emulates the Weaver V-16 that was on my M70 Featherweight, and also incorporates a 50MM Objective for better performance in dimmer light, while allowing a 30mm tube and side focus/parallax which I'm finding are both desirable improvements.

Recoil is not my friend, either. I draw my upward line at the 30-06 chambering for applications requiring significant training.

Replacements: stock, scope base, trigger.

Greg

 

[Gobears16]

Jesus this got off track quickly. I was reading to see what builds everyone recommended.

Anywho to @Gobears16 i was in the same situation for my father two years ago, went 6.5 SAUM for the exact reason as mentioned. It has plenty of energy for most anything in NA and doesn't recoil much, hell in his rifle doesn't recoil nearly as bad as his 6lb 308. I think PRC is the obvious answer here as many mentioned. Ours is 9lbs without the can and bipod as spec'd below.
Bighorn SR3
3B fluted finished at 23"
APA RTG
MCS-T bedded
TT special
Zeiss V6 3-18x50

I'd also personally build that's just me, but you get exactly what you want the first time around and given a quality smith you usually don't have to worry about it not shooting.

If wanting to remain as light as possible i'd do this. The more i use the Origin in my brother's 308 the more i absolutely love this little action also.
Bighorn Origin - $825
Proof Sendero lite - $650
KRG Bravo - ($300ish) disclaimer there are more balanced stocks but it really can compliment a light build if he's okay with the pistol grip
TT Special - 120-140
Leupold VX6HD/Zeiss V6 if SFP is his thing or Mark 5/NX8 if he is alright with FFP.

Smithing of course is going to be 450ish depending. That's $2350 all said and done for the rifle and you could cut some of that down by going with a 3B instead of the proof. Though where i think the proof would really aid with the bravo is balance. If you have a bravo or ever held one with the barreled action it's front heavy.

Sounds like the perfect build for my father. We live in Cali and hunt out of state in multiple states throughout the year. I’m going to put together a rifle exactly like you said and put it in a Mcmillan or manners to keep it sporty. Might pick of a bravo for range work and fun at home then slip it in a hunting stock before the hunt.

I’ll report back, hopefully with hero picks of 200in bucks and 340bulls haha.

For everyone discussing ethics and what calibers are needed... 90% of shots on animals will be under 200 but I want him to be confident that if the buck or bull of life time is at 632 yards and time is ticking that the bullet and 100’s of rounds of practice that he’ll be 100% confident taking the shot. We won’t be looking to back up and make crazy long range shots for “credit”. This will be a meat gun!! I appreciate all the advice, that’s why I love this forum. Many here have way more knowledge and skills than me or my friends. Thanks again and like I said I’ll keep everyone updated on how the build goes!!

 

[Jabot]

7mm minimum bullet size for an ethnic kill on elk ethnic being the main determining factor

 

[Temper]

7mm minimum bullet size for an ethnic kill on elk ethnic being the main determining factor

Why the elk gotta be ethnic?

 

[DangerRanger]

Think ya meant “ethics” lol

 

[Jabot]

Yes thaks

 

[DangerRanger]

Why the elk gotta be ethnic?

Maybe he’s pointing out that kodiak archipelago elk are a lot larger than Rocky’s lol

 

[Evolution 9]

7mm minimum bullet size for an ethnic kill on elk ethnic being the main determining factor

So I can use my 9mm Glock and you’ll consider me two MMs more “ethnic” than if I used a 7mm Remington Mag?

The intellect of those who deny facts is consistent with the fact that they deny facts ???


Having actually taken an elk with a suppressed 9mm, I’ll now proudly proclaim that proponents of the old guard consider me not only an “ethnic” hunter, but a full TWO millimeters more “ethnic” than necessary ???????

 

[Jabot]

Meaning a 7 millimeter bullet at the smallest don't be a douch

 

[Evolution 9]

Meaning a 7 millimeter bullet at the smallest don't be a douch

Lol, you still don’t get it. 9mm is larger than 7mm... by a large percentage...

(insert teenager saying, “Duh!” With an exaggerated head wag and hand wave)

There is a whole lot more to a bullet’s ability to accomplish its task than diameter...

Something that’s been proven in this thread and elsewhere and also something that escapes many who blindly follow grandpappy’s way of thinking.

Again, the penis size of the rifle in a hunter’s hand doesn’t have Jack shit to do with his ethics as a hunter.

Ethics is (almost entirely) placing a hole in the right place, and passing up the shot if you can’t.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Meaning a 7 millimeter bullet at the smallest don't be a douch

Not sure why my 6.5 PRC or old 6.5 saum doesn’t do the job any less satisfactory? 7mm minimum sounds like a “get off my lawn you damn kids” type of thing.

 

[Evolution 9]

Not sure why my 6.5 PRC or old 6.5 saum doesn’t do the job any less satisfactory? 7mm minimum sounds like a “get off my lawn you damn kids” type of thing.

Because math is hard and science is harder ?

 

[Jabot]

Lol, you still don’t get it. 9mm is larger than 7mm... by a large percentage...

(insert teenager saying, “Duh!” With an exaggerated head wag and hand wave)

There is a whole lot more to a bullet’s ability to accomplish its task than diameter...

Something that’s been proven in this thread and elsewhere and also something that escapes many who blindly follow grandpappy’s way of thinking.

Again, the penis size of the rifle in a hunter’s hand doesn’t have Jack shit to do with his ethics as a hunter.

Ethics is (almost entirely) placing a hole in the right place, and passing up the shot if you can’t.

Yep I was right only a douch would would kill an elk with a 9 mm

 

[Evolution 9]

Yep I was right only a douch would would kill an elk with a 9 mm

If you can’t figure out that 9 is larger than 7 (even after its pointed out to you) you’ll never be right about anything.

By the way, the word you failed to spell is actually spelled, “douche”.

... unless you were trying to call me Dutch... ???

 

[Gobears16]

I’ve personally seen many elk die from a 1 1/8 broadhead going through the lungs... I have no doubt a 6mm, 6.5mm, 270, 7mm, 308, 338 ripping though liver, lungs or heart will put an elk down quick and they won’t be any more dead....

 

[jbuck88]

I’ve personally seen many elk die from a 1 1/8 broadhead going through the lungs... I have no doubt a 6mm, 6.5mm, 270, 7mm, 308, 338 ripping though liver, lungs or heart will put an elk down quick and they won’t be any more dead....

I've worked with a few game wardens who hate archery season, because of all the wounded and lost game.

I have the pictures on my other phone, but I found a nice 5x5 bull that was wounded and ran off to die last archery season.

 

[Gobears16]

I've worked with a few game wardens who hate archery season, because of all the wounded and lost game.

I have the pictures on my other phone, but I found a nice 5x5 bull that was wounded and ran off to die last archery season.

No doubt if you make a shitty shot you’ll lose an animal. But they also die very quickly when the lungs fill with blood....

 

[b6graham]

I've worked with a few game wardens who hate archery season, because of all the wounded and lost game.

I have the pictures on my other phone, but I found a nice 5x5 bull that was wounded and ran off to die last archery season.

i'd rather get shot with a gun than an arrow any day of the week

but yes. archery gets a bag wrap for wounded animals and people who cant track AND take poor shots

 

[skinney_7]

To the OP, a 6.5 PRC will be a hammer for the old man. Great ballistics, not bad recoil with the weights you mentioned. Build it, shoot it, and enjoy the hell out of it.
We've killed 8 Elk so far this year since the beginning of July. Last year was at 30, year before that over 20. The FIRST question I ask my hunters, is what Cartridge / Cal. are you shooting? Facts are most don't shoot like you guys here do, which is why I make them shoot, to not only verify zero, but to verify they can actually shoot. I could tell you a few horror stories that would make you cringe, not a good deal.
I've killed Elk with a 338NM, 300WM, 7mm, 260, and Bow. From experience and seeing how other people operate I don't trust small calibers, nothing against those who are proficient with them, but I have yet to see someone out of 100's that I would personally trust with a cartridge that doesn't have the energy to break bone, and kill a 700-1200 lb animal with a mildly misplaced shot. I'm in a different, more unique situation, which is why I scrutinize who comes in a little more than most.
Here's a pic of the 6.5 PRC I got finished up a few months ago!

 

[Undrgrndprdcts]

To the OP, a 6.5 PRC will be a hammer for the old man. Great ballistics, not bad recoil with the weights you mentioned. Build it, shoot it, and enjoy the hell out of it.
We've killed 8 Elk so far this year since the beginning of July. Last year was at 30, year before that over 20. The FIRST question I ask my hunters, is what Cartridge / Cal. are you shooting? Facts are most don't shoot like you guys here do, which is why I make them shoot, to not only verify zero, but to verify they can actually shoot. I could tell you a few horror stories that would make you cringe, not a good deal.
I've killed Elk with 338NM, 300WM, 7mm, 260, and Bow. From experience and seeing how other people operate I don't trust small calibers, nothing against those who are proficient with them, but I have yet to see someone out of 100's that I would personally trust with a cartridge that doesn't have the energy to break bone, and kill an 700-1200 lb animal with a mildly misplaced shot. I'm in a different, more unique situation, which is why I scrutinize who comes in a little more than most.
Here's a pic of the 6.5 PRC I got finished up a few months ago!

What barrel length?

 

[skinney_7]

What barrel length?

Hardy Rifle Engineering @ 22"

 

[Undrgrndprdcts]

Hardy Rifle Engineering @ 22"

I want a 22" 6.5 prc bad.

 

[Primus]

I’ve personally seen many elk die from a 1 1/8 broadhead going through the lungs... I have no doubt a 6mm, 6.5mm, 270, 7mm, 308, 338 ripping though liver, lungs or heart will put an elk down quick and they won’t be any more dead....

Which is no issue if you are shooting from archery ranges and taking a clean shot that an Archer would have to take. You plan on stalking into 40/60 yards of a elk before you pull the trigger?

Becuase If you want a clean kill with a broadhead or a smaller bullet, that is what is required for a high probability of a clean kill.

Otherwise your point is useless.