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6.5 Creedmoor. Max distance.
- Thread starter phillip61
- Start date
You could load some hot Bergers and the BC on those bullets is so exceptional, I have heard of people taking it out to a mile. However, I have been shooting this round for a few years now, and will tell you that it's really not designed for that distance. The best reasonable distance that seems to favor the Creedmoor with standard loads (my most accurate loads somewhat mimic the factory Hornady match, go figure all their resources and R&D pays off) puts their useful distance around 1400 yards (I am told this is the supersonic distance of the 120gr Amax). I consistently shoot 1200 yards with factory match ammo and it does exceptionally well.
BTW, don't for a second have second thoughts about this caliber. You can find the ammo online for about 25 bucks a box and the factory ammo shoots lights out! What a great deer/medium game round as well. I am on my second 6.5 CM and never looked back. Barrel life is excellent as well.
BTW, don't for a second have second thoughts about this caliber. You can find the ammo online for about 25 bucks a box and the factory ammo shoots lights out! What a great deer/medium game round as well. I am on my second 6.5 CM and never looked back. Barrel life is excellent as well.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
I shoot with a guy that gets 3100 fps with a 140 hybrid, 6.5 creed, this statement is stretching it!
It'll do a mile, but effectively??? Out here in this wind, I've seen a lot bigger cartridges not do it EFFECTIVELY!
That sounds like it will be a tack driver. My second creedmoor is almost complete, I built it on a bighorn Tl-2 action with a Bartlein 24" heavy varmint bbl 5r gain twist, with a jewell trigger. Im waiting for my AICS 1.5 chassis and Steiner 5-25 military glass. I was sold on the caliber a long while ago, though. Hoping it gains more of a foothold with other manufacturers, would like to see some more deer rifles chambered for it.
What kind of glass and trigger are on that bad boy?
What kind of glass and trigger are on that bad boy?
Depends on your's, the OP's and my definition of "effectively" milo. If you mean hit a MOA sized target a couple times...then yes. If you want to shoot a 5" square plate, shot, after shot, after shot...probably not.
If you are looking for maximum energy, then it is absolutely not the MOST effective cartridge to be using.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
We shoot a full size IPSC at a mile, so 1/2" wider, and 5 1/2" taller in the body than moa, I've only seen two consecutive hits on it ever! It was a 338 snipetac, going over 3 drainages doesn't help much, very rarely do we get a day that has no wind.
Any ELR hotshots that think that can master this, we welcome you! Hitting at 1850, and 2K is easier than this target, you can't see the bottom of the stand, conditions need to be about perfect to even spot a miss.
I'm intrigued at your using the 120 rather than 140 at the farther distances. I understand the ability to achieve a higher velocity with the 120, but where does the BC on the 120 compare to the 140 Amax? I checked in the Litz book and found a .299 Avg G7 on the 140, but no info on the 120 Hornady.
I'm beginning a 6.5CM build, and am always interested to hear what guys are seeing out of the factory loadings, since that's where I'll be starting.
Bogey,
I use the 140's primarily, I was just citing the 1400 yard supersonic info from a source I had found on the web. I honestly don't know the supersonic range of the 140's, I would imagine it's a tad farther, but I honestly don't know.
I found that most CM shooters rave about the 140's but I don't hear too much about the 120's. When all the craziness occured after Newtown, I couldn't even find 140 projectiles to reload, so I started experimenting with the 120's as these were still available. They seemed to shoot just as well as the 140's, however at the time I did not take them past 850 yards.
One of my shooting buddies loads Berger VLD match with 42.5gr of H4350 and he claims to be able to shoot a mile with this load. Now, as stated before, I don't know what he considers to be effective at a mile. It's pretty obvious the CM is not a 338 LM or 300 WM, and it doesn't make much sense to shoot a mile except for novelty reasons with this caliber imo.
Another bullet I've had success with is the 139 scenar. Very accurate, but I don't use them because I like to have a load I can hunt with. The Amax is ok for hunting, even though it's not advertised as such. I have shot the scenars at gallon jugs, and was not able to determine which hole was the entrance and which was the exit, they were the exact same size.
If I could offer any advice, it would be not to buy into all the hype of the 140's, the 120's shoot VERY well and can often be found for either cheaper or much easier. If you are going out past 1000, then the 140's might make more sense, and I haven't tried the 120's past 850 as stated earlier, but from what I have read they also perform well within normal 'creedmoor distances.'
I use the 140's primarily, I was just citing the 1400 yard supersonic info from a source I had found on the web. I honestly don't know the supersonic range of the 140's, I would imagine it's a tad farther, but I honestly don't know.
I found that most CM shooters rave about the 140's but I don't hear too much about the 120's. When all the craziness occured after Newtown, I couldn't even find 140 projectiles to reload, so I started experimenting with the 120's as these were still available. They seemed to shoot just as well as the 140's, however at the time I did not take them past 850 yards.
One of my shooting buddies loads Berger VLD match with 42.5gr of H4350 and he claims to be able to shoot a mile with this load. Now, as stated before, I don't know what he considers to be effective at a mile. It's pretty obvious the CM is not a 338 LM or 300 WM, and it doesn't make much sense to shoot a mile except for novelty reasons with this caliber imo.
Another bullet I've had success with is the 139 scenar. Very accurate, but I don't use them because I like to have a load I can hunt with. The Amax is ok for hunting, even though it's not advertised as such. I have shot the scenars at gallon jugs, and was not able to determine which hole was the entrance and which was the exit, they were the exact same size.
If I could offer any advice, it would be not to buy into all the hype of the 140's, the 120's shoot VERY well and can often be found for either cheaper or much easier. If you are going out past 1000, then the 140's might make more sense, and I haven't tried the 120's past 850 as stated earlier, but from what I have read they also perform well within normal 'creedmoor distances.'
M
milo 2.0
Guest
I not fabricating this shit, really it's a fluke, personal opinion, it's a super fast Rock Creek barrel. He bought five more just like it thinking he's going to shoot the creed at 3100 plus, even ackley'd for the rest of his life. We'll see when this barrel goes south.
Thanks for the info. I went 6.5CM because I'm not yet in a position to handload, and it was the 6/6.5mm caliber best supported with factory match ammo. I'm building this one to fill that "gap" in the intermediate long range from 1k-1400m or so where my shorty .308s are lacking. I continue to hear good things about the performance of the factory Hornady ammo, which is where I'll start and I'm hoping that someone else is loading a good match round by the time the rifle is finished.
Once I'm set up for handloading, I'd like to play with some the faster bullets and some of the higher BC bullets like the 140 gr VLD and JLK 140 VLD to see what they're doing out in that "no mans land" where the .308 under-performs and a .338 is overkill. I don't really hunt anymore, so at this point it's all geared towards banging steel.
Once I move to the Midwest, I'd like to try some prairie-dogs or something along those lines for the first time since we don't have warm-blooded reactive targets like that in the deep south (unless you count Nutria).
M
milo 2.0
Guest
'No Mans Land' is an excellent term for that distance. I have spent a lot of time with a 308 as well, and have nothing against that cartridge. But, for the recoil and barrel life, I think the CM gets you a little more payback. Also the drop is much nicer to deal with, I don't like to touch my turrets and prefer to use the Mil reticle for anything possible, and with the CM I don't have to touch my turrets for anything inside a grand... With a 308 that wouldn't be happening.
I currently have 3 precision .308s, the "long" one is 20". I've taken the 18" out to 1200 or so, but it obviously wasn't the optimum platform to be out at that distance with. The .308 or the 6.5 will "get to" a mile, but again, wrong platform if that's my goal.
With the 6.5 I'm looking to gain some velocity, improve the BC, and stay supersonic farther. The ability to cheat some wind and keep within the reticle will be nice as well. Although, past a grand I may dial for 1k and then hold over from there depending on the targets.
crunched some numbers in Shooter using 140 Amax @ 2750 fps; the paper says bad things just before the mile mark, and that was at 5000 elevation, no cross wind, 70 degrees.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I thought I had replied to this thread, apparently not.
Here is Chucks 6.5 Creedmoor hitting at one mile, supersonic all the way out to the target:
Long Range Shooting: 1-Mile Hits w/target cam - YouTube
Here is Chucks 6.5 Creedmoor hitting at one mile, supersonic all the way out to the target:
Long Range Shooting: 1-Mile Hits w/target cam - YouTube
The .50 BMG is an awesome round. Still has tons of power at a mile. That's my next purchase. I wanna take it out to 2400+
No question the .50's ruled the day that day. But, I was totally impressed with Chucks (264shooter) 6.5 Creedmoor.
FWIW, he also still sells the IOTA, Indoor optic training aid. They work great for when you need to practice in your house without pointing a rifle out a window. I'd be using mine more right now if the wife hadn't stuck the Christmas tree in front of my target...
I quit shooting my .260 (effectively 6.5 CM equivalent... my shooting partner has one) over 1200 yds. because where I shoot we NEVER have dust like that to spot our misses. And it is VERY frustrating to figure out what needs to be adjusted if you can't get a CB plate hit. My WM would at least kick up a little splash of dirt or mud with heavy bullets and we could get on... but those little 140's without dust.... exercise in futility.
John
Man, I'm surprised the 7mm-08 could get out there! Was he supersonic? I've been shooting TR, so it's all 308 for me these days, but I am a HUGE fan of the 7mm-08. As a matter of fact, I still hunt with a Steyr Mountain Rifle chambered in 7-08.
Nice video! I've never shot past 1k, and personally feel that that's plenty challenging ( at least with a .308 and a 1 MOA 10-ring). You guys in the desert are lucky! I never see anything past 600, except on military bases...
chefcam864,
Yes the 7mm-08 was supersonic with both 168 VLD's (JLK and Berger) and the 180. So were Chucks 123 Lapua Scenar's. Yes, that is correct, Chuck was getting out there with those. He uses one load primarily and that particular load gives him the best odds at comps where he's running from 50-1000 yds. Maybe 1200(?) depending on the comp. The 123's have almost the same BC as the 139's. And he can push them a good deal faster and hit an accuracy node right at the top.
ScottyS on here did the filming and editing. He sets up one camera with us the other about 150 yds. back/ 20 yds offset from the target. I believe he said about 70 ft. below on the hill. We did a computer calculation to find where the bullets were approximately as they passed the camera (which of course picks up sound) and it ended up being about 150 ft. So, when you hear the "snap" right before you see the bullets hitting, it means the sonic boom of the bullet is just passing the camera right before the bullet is hitting. Both the 7mm and 6.5 are still going fast enough they almost beat the snap at the camera. I was impressed to see this. This was a warm day and unfortunately, Chuck didn't have any 140's on hand to see what they would do, and I didn't load up enough 180's to get on target more. I also came a little ill prepared in that I made some last minute changes and didn't have time to check dope, so I was going out to 1 mile cold, with no dope. In retrospect I should have spent the last of the 180's dialing them into 1 mile. Not saving a bunch for 1k as they did me no good there either. Again, ill preparedness, I chose the wrong scope to go to 1 mile with.
Anyhoo, ScottyS has some more video's of he and Chuck and crew down there in Nevada shooting. Well worth watching as a lot can be learned from these. Of course it helps to have been there and talked about all the loads we used and calls for wind, etc. ScottyS also has a later video of he and Chuck and his 6mm SLR. A real eye opener for those who don't believe a "little 6" can get out there and get it done. They do!
Yes the 7mm-08 was supersonic with both 168 VLD's (JLK and Berger) and the 180. So were Chucks 123 Lapua Scenar's. Yes, that is correct, Chuck was getting out there with those. He uses one load primarily and that particular load gives him the best odds at comps where he's running from 50-1000 yds. Maybe 1200(?) depending on the comp. The 123's have almost the same BC as the 139's. And he can push them a good deal faster and hit an accuracy node right at the top.
ScottyS on here did the filming and editing. He sets up one camera with us the other about 150 yds. back/ 20 yds offset from the target. I believe he said about 70 ft. below on the hill. We did a computer calculation to find where the bullets were approximately as they passed the camera (which of course picks up sound) and it ended up being about 150 ft. So, when you hear the "snap" right before you see the bullets hitting, it means the sonic boom of the bullet is just passing the camera right before the bullet is hitting. Both the 7mm and 6.5 are still going fast enough they almost beat the snap at the camera. I was impressed to see this. This was a warm day and unfortunately, Chuck didn't have any 140's on hand to see what they would do, and I didn't load up enough 180's to get on target more. I also came a little ill prepared in that I made some last minute changes and didn't have time to check dope, so I was going out to 1 mile cold, with no dope. In retrospect I should have spent the last of the 180's dialing them into 1 mile. Not saving a bunch for 1k as they did me no good there either. Again, ill preparedness, I chose the wrong scope to go to 1 mile with.
Anyhoo, ScottyS has some more video's of he and Chuck and crew down there in Nevada shooting. Well worth watching as a lot can be learned from these. Of course it helps to have been there and talked about all the loads we used and calls for wind, etc. ScottyS also has a later video of he and Chuck and his 6mm SLR. A real eye opener for those who don't believe a "little 6" can get out there and get it done. They do!
I want to see the video of the SLR.
I'd definitely choose a little better round to get to a mile with. What about the 6.5SAUM with the 140's or the 7SAUM or most any of the 300's.
xdeano
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xdeano
Here's the 6 SLR up against the 6.5 Creed. On a much cooler day. We were shooting in the first vid @ 95-100 deg. Scotty told me this day was around 70 deg.
Long Range Shooting: 3-round challenge, Part II - YouTube
Do note here, I know there are doubters. But keep in mind it's the bullet as much if not more than the cartridge. The DTACS Scotty is shooting are exceptional for BC and he gets very good velocity out of them with this combination. The rifle of course is OPTIMIZED for them as well. It isn't going to work for you if you go and throw these in your standard 1-9" twist .243.
But, then again maybe, it would be nice if Manufacturers thought of this instead of just saying, "We'll do whatever we want, and you'll buy it that way."
Here's the 6 SLR up against the 6.5 Creed. On a much cooler day. We were shooting in the first vid @ 95-100 deg. Scotty told me this day was around 70 deg.
Long Range Shooting: 3-round challenge, Part II - YouTube
Do note here, I know there are doubters. But keep in mind it's the bullet as much if not more than the cartridge. The DTACS Scotty is shooting are exceptional for BC and he gets very good velocity out of them with this combination. The rifle of course is OPTIMIZED for them as well. It isn't going to work for you if you go and throw these in your standard 1-9" twist .243.
But, then again maybe, it would be nice if Manufacturers thought of this instead of just saying, "We'll do whatever we want, and you'll buy it that way."
Any chance we could get the coal for the 123 scenar in Chuck's rifle? Or maybe the whole recipe? I cannot find any recipes for that bullet anywhere...
Can't argue with any of that. Impressive shooting from everyone, arguably more so from the "little" guns, Would like to know what the range conditions, elevation were.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
ahhshoot,
The coal isn't going to matter for you from Chucks rifle. His rifle is throated specifically for his load with that bullet. Your rifle will, in all probability, have a different throat length. So you need to find that length and work from there. Do also know the 123 gr. lapua Scenar is very depth tolerant as far as accuracy.
There is a really good reloading sticky by [MENTION=13716]Tres Mon[/MENTION]** on the reloading forum telling you how to start working up with this. He suggests loading the bullet to the lands and doing a ladder. The load should never get hotter than where you top out at if you only back the bullet off, and, never increasing the powder charge from the high point. I do believe Chuck uses H4350X (extreme, the new Hodgdon). That is all I can tell you about his load and how he gets what he does. He also has IIRC, a 28" barrel. As we discussed and agreed on, why lose all that free horsepower.
In any case, you have the bullet weight, it is reasonable to use similar weights for a starting point. Then run a ladder with those loads increasing .5 gr. in powder. This tells you two things. One, where you have an accuracy node. Two, where your pressure tops out at using that bullet seating depth. You can check on Hodgdgon, Alliant, Ramshot, or Accurate to see where you want to start and work up with.
It's as simple as that. Find your base points, work up, find accuracy, keep that load.
**Edited so some guy named Tres doesn't ask me who the hell I am.
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Thanks for the wealth of information, I will definitely check out the reloading forum and quit hi-jacking this post, lol. I haven't ventured too far from the factory reloading suggestions on Hornady's box... Using H4350 as well as Varget, but that load seems like a one size fits all and I feel more accuracy can be squeezed out by personalizing the load for the rifle. Unfortunately, I will have to wait another week before I can start development for my rifle to be complete. Thanks again for all the info.
Thanks for posting the video. Any idea what scotty is using for a load on the 6slr and dtacs? I've ran mine out to 1360 with the.berger 105's and they did very well.
Xdeano
Xdeano
Ahhshoot,
Don't feel like you're hijacking the thread. You asked a valid question about the 6.5 Creedmoor and I gave you what I thought would be the right answer. It's all good information to the OP as to what he's asking.
xdeano,
You're welcome. Scotty and Chuck are some pretty awesome shooters. And, like I say, Scotty does a great job with the editing on this video so it makes a good learning tool. They both post on here so keep an eye out for what they do. I'm sure any information you need on either of these rounds they'd be willing to help you out. Just make sure you do it the smart way and work up to what your rifle does do. Don't get into that region where you're in what your rifle won't do!
Don't feel like you're hijacking the thread. You asked a valid question about the 6.5 Creedmoor and I gave you what I thought would be the right answer. It's all good information to the OP as to what he's asking.
xdeano,
You're welcome. Scotty and Chuck are some pretty awesome shooters. And, like I say, Scotty does a great job with the editing on this video so it makes a good learning tool. They both post on here so keep an eye out for what they do. I'm sure any information you need on either of these rounds they'd be willing to help you out. Just make sure you do it the smart way and work up to what your rifle does do. Don't get into that region where you're in what your rifle won't do!
Sandwarrior - sending pm.
OP sorry for the derail of thread. Back to the 6.5 creed at distance...
xdeano
OP sorry for the derail of thread. Back to the 6.5 creed at distance...
xdeano
Zenbiker,
It was 4000 ft. ASL with the mercury @ 95-100 or so and 25.92 in. HG for pressure. I forget what that corrected to for density altitude, but I thought it was around 5400-6000 ft. You have to correct the pressure and use that for the DA calculation. Without correcting for " of Hg we showed 11,830 ft. ASL. If life was that good we could shoot a 45-70 to 2 miles accurately.
Still life was pretty good as you watch the second video Chuck started having issues with his 123 Lapua's. I'm pretty certain I would be having the same issues with the 168's for sure, if not the 180's in my 7mm-08.
It was 4000 ft. ASL with the mercury @ 95-100 or so and 25.92 in. HG for pressure. I forget what that corrected to for density altitude, but I thought it was around 5400-6000 ft. You have to correct the pressure and use that for the DA calculation. Without correcting for " of Hg we showed 11,830 ft. ASL. If life was that good we could shoot a 45-70 to 2 miles accurately.
Still life was pretty good as you watch the second video Chuck started having issues with his 123 Lapua's. I'm pretty certain I would be having the same issues with the 168's for sure, if not the 180's in my 7mm-08.Zenbiker,
It was 4000 ft. ASL with the mercury @ 95-100 or so and 25.92 in. HG for pressure. I forget what that corrected to for density altitude, but I thought it was around 5400-6000 ft. You have to correct the pressure and use that for the DA calculation. Without correcting for " of Hg we showed 11,830 ft. ASL. If life was that good we could shoot a 45-70 to 2 miles accurately.
I'm glad to see someone invest in a high class 7mm-08. I have always wondered why that round never gained much traction with long range shooters. It seems to me you have the inherently accurate case of the .308 and the excellent BC and sectional density of the 7mm projectile. It simply makes sense. This vid shows it will stay supersonic to a mile as well, what more could you ask for? Still the .308 seems to be preferred but in a head to head my dollars would be on the 7mm-08 allllll day.
Zenbiker,
It was 4000 ft. ASL with the mercury @ 95-100 or so and 25.92 in. HG for pressure. I forget what that corrected to for density altitude, but I thought it was around 5400-6000 ft. You have to correct the pressure and use that for the DA calculation. Without correcting for " of Hg we showed 11,830 ft. ASL. If life was that good we could shoot a 45-70 to 2 miles accurately.
sandwarrior,
Thanks for the info. Wanted to run the numbers to see what evil shooting genies were in the range bottle that day. Would love to try that when I get my 375 project done - so close now. Would like to fly out there if I had a friend or shooting facility/guide to stay with and steer me to these shooting paradises.
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Have you guys look at 130gr VLD. Out of my 28" Kreiger I get 2920 without even pushing it, the recoil is about like a 223. I get sub moa groups. Just a suggestion, I don't know of any place to shoot past 1020. Anyone in Northern Colorado know of a or interested in someone to shoot ELR, I'm game. I do have steel 12"x24".
Rifle and Grand Junction areas have a bunch of long range shooters. I wouldn't know how to get together with them there, but you might ask any gunstore owner who shoots long range and if you could give them your number or get a contact guys number. That's how I did it in Minnesota.
I'd like to see proof, Not calling anyone a liar, but his MV is ~300 fps above what I'm getting out of my 260 with the 140 hybrids, and I'm running at very high pressures. Just don't see how it's safely possible.
I have a CM and dropped it off at GAP today for new bbl. I have a 20" and I have done very well at 1330. I shot it out to a mile at TVP a fews ago and the 120's were not bringing enough juice to see where each shot was going. I spotted 2-3 shots out of 10 or so. Just not in there for it. The 140's do better at LR and I have seen it when shooting them side by side. I compared them a few times on a rock wall at 1330 and only oce did the 120's seem to hang in there with it. And I know if I was using a 24" tube they both would do better. When I get my rifle back I will have the 20" and a 24" then I can see what velocities Im getting from both
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Well jonesy, this stems from a post of mine. I from the start said it's a fluke. I'm not about to supply proof of anything. Your 260 among 6.5's has been noted as the weak one, compared to 6.5x47, a high pressure round, and the creed. Mostly because of case inefficiency with the limp ass shoulder angle, improve it and it joins the crowd.
I had a 7mm saum, 180 hybrid at 3160,no pressure, don't see load data in that range either! But, 5 barrels later, the best I've seen is 3030fps. Once in a blue moon, the rainbow is shining on your head.
[MENTION=48506]milo 2.0[/MENTION] I guess proof is the wrong word. I would just like to know how this is safely done. The Hornady 6.5 Creed loads clock at ~2820 fps, which is what my 260 shoots. Do you know what powder he was using, if not 4350?
Also, doesn't the 260 have higher case capacity? And isn't that a good thing in terms of MV?
Also, doesn't the 260 have higher case capacity? And isn't that a good thing in terms of MV?
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M
milo 2.0
Guest
Out of respect, I can't post his load, even though it's no big deal, IMHO.
The 260 does have the bigger case, and should have more capacity. But the case by design is not efficient, your powder is burned in the barrel and not the case. This is a whole discussion in itself. There's a reason we build on cases, for the 260, brass price and availability shines above the Lapua. But in today's climate, the Creed rules hands down in all categories, fuck, I'm talking myself into one.
I need to go shoot, I'll check back.
Thanks for the reply. I did not know that about burning in the case instead of the barrel. I guess that's why it would increase the barrel life as well?
