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6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
I have a 26” stainless criterion remage barrel, 8tw, have close to 1000rds through it and my groups are starting to open up. I have half ass cleaned it with hoppes and copper solvent maybe 3 times. It shoots any 140gr bullet with 42.1gr of H4350 with ease staying under 1/2 MOA. I will post pictures but my impacts are stringing left and right, 2 will hit same hole center, than the next 2 are.2-.3mils left, elevation relatively the same. Let me know what you guys think I should do next. I don’t have a bore scope btw
I use Boretech Eliminator for copper and it really does a nice job.
I also recheck with my Hornady OAL Gauge the inevitable erosion of the lands and find that OAL will increase over time. Most barrels like a specific distance to the lands to shoot best and that is an ever changing measurement.
I also recheck with my Hornady OAL Gauge the inevitable erosion of the lands and find that OAL will increase over time. Most barrels like a specific distance to the lands to shoot best and that is an ever changing measurement.
I haven’t tried chasing the lands because it was grouping awesome and low SD with SAAMi specs 2.800bthp and 2.825eld (140s)
Hornady match dies. They have been working awesome and just this week prepping for a match, noticed some serious impact shifts at 100yds. I will be going out again today after thoroughly cleaning my brake, chamber, etc, run a couple shots before I group and see where I’m at
Boretech eliminator.
I use to think I was cleaning my rifles until I let this stuff sit in my barrel for an hour. Black patches.
I use to think I was cleaning my rifles until I let this stuff sit in my barrel for an hour. Black patches.
How are you getting 42.6gr of RL16 in Alpha brass without massive pressure signs? I saw pressure at 41.5 of RL16 with a 140 ELD-M.
8’ drop tube?
I was deforming 140’s at 42.0 grains of RL16 due to compacted load.
Possibly a really long throat.
I was deforming 140’s at 42.0 grains of RL16 due to compacted load.
Possibly a really long throat.
I’ll check the SD in a sec. 24” barrel.
Slightly cratered primers but no other signs. Still lots of radius left on the edge of the primers. I tap the cases pretty good to settle power out, and it’s slightly compressed.
I do know this chamber is very tight though. Much tighter than the one in my factory Bergara, and it encapsulates more of the cartridge. I can’t fit a fired cartridge from that gun in this gun.
I full length size and then neck size with Redding comp dies, and I’m about 4-5 firings on these, and they haven’t even grown a thou in length. I’ve never trimmed. I’m seating the 147s to 2.177”CBTO which puts me at 2.825”COAL I believe.
My results exactly: Very convenient setup, saves time, no drift in the scale (if you turn off the AC), accurate to one or two kernels of powder, but not more accurate on target than the Chargemaster (accurate to four kernels of powder) or similar 0.1 grain accuracy scales. In the latest Bryan Litz book, he came to a similar conclusion comparing the much more expensive Sartorius lab scale with the Chargemaster.
To all,
Looking to try some 130 ELDM, and 130 Berger AR Hybrids s for a new M24 Bartlien barrel 1:8 for 6.5CM. Anyone had success with these? Please share results load data
Thanks
Looking to try some 130 ELDM, and 130 Berger AR Hybrids s for a new M24 Bartlien barrel 1:8 for 6.5CM. Anyone had success with these? Please share results load data
Thanks
As others have said, main difference is to have consistent internal case volume for the 50 or 100 cases in your ammo box, which requires the cases to have very similar case thickness all round. Weight sorting into batches of 2-3 grains helps.
I also started with Hornady brass, and got decent groups, 0.5” to 0.9”. If you measure Hornady case necks with a ball micrometer (at the same distance from the mouth), you can see fairly large variations for the same case (and between different cases), often up to 0.0015” (1.5 thou). That is not ideal, as it will affect case volume, which affect velocity. Also (lesser effect), bullet concentricity will be less than ideal, and bullets going into the lands at an angle supposedly get deformed (bent), which allegedly messes up their BC and center of gravity. [i did neck turn the Hornady brass later on, but found no real improvement. Neck turning cannot fix case volume differences.]
My experience (gathered a lot of data for different brands of 6.5 CM brass and published it on this forum), is that case weight is an adequate substitute for case volume (and resultant muzzle velocity changes) for well made brass.]
Effect of case volume on 6.5 Creedmoor velocity - some experimental data
OK, have been wanting to run this experiment for a while, and finally found the time 2 weeks ago. Have been collecting range brass over the past 4 years and just kept it in a plastic bucket, never shot it since it is unsorted, different manufacturer, different batch and different weight. Would...
www.snipershide.com
I got a 20-30% reduction in group size and SD by going first to Nosler brass, and later on to Lapua and Alpha. [Small rifle primer brass last a lot longer, my Lapua batch is on reload 23 already and primer pockets are still tight. Nosler LRP brass got between 8 and 12 reloads, mostly neck sizing and working the brass very little.] SD came down down from 12-16 fps range to the 7-12 fps range. Nice improvement in groups at 600 yards.
Use of a Sinclair Mandrel die, neck turning, bullet sorting, and the use of an accurate scale got my SD down to the 3-9 fps range. A serious case of ‘diminishing returns’, a lot of work for a small but real and observable benefit. Probably was not needed.
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As Namib said, and I know I've said it at least a dozen times over the years, my biggest reduction in SD and ES came from switching brass. When I first started shooting 6.5 Creedmoor, I was forming Lake City 308 brass. A time-consuming process that taught me a lot and gave me some VERY high quality brass. Hornady released their brass , but finding it at the time was like pulling teeth. When supply finally surpassed demand, we had adequate, but inconsistent brass. Switching to Prime (Norma) then Alpha reduced my values quite a bit.
My next largest reduction came from consistent neck tension, thanks to expander and neck turning mandrels. I don't sort bullets and I don't sort brass, but I'm typically below a 7 SD and 14 ES. If I were trying to print the tightest group possible at 1K, I might venture further down the rabbit hole, but I shoot steel, so my reloading is more than adequate for my style of shooting.
My next largest reduction came from consistent neck tension, thanks to expander and neck turning mandrels. I don't sort bullets and I don't sort brass, but I'm typically below a 7 SD and 14 ES. If I were trying to print the tightest group possible at 1K, I might venture further down the rabbit hole, but I shoot steel, so my reloading is more than adequate for my style of shooting.
I have shot factory ammo in matches with higher SD than that, tested with 10 rounds, not 18, and had no issues hitting targets.
Could it be lower? Sure! But whats it worth? I say shoot it at distance. Chech your vertical spread at 300 and 600 yards and roll with it.
Could it be lower? Sure! But whats it worth? I say shoot it at distance. Chech your vertical spread at 300 and 600 yards and roll with it.
BTW: Any ES from a batch of 5 shots (say during load development) is not a reliable statistical indicator of variability. With a bit of good luck you can see a single digit ES and an SD of 2 or 3. Or with some bad luck you can see an ES of 35 or even more. SD tend to drift around at the start of the session and then usually it will stabilize, while ES will progressively (but slowly) get higher over time.
If you shoot 50 or 100 rounds using the same load recipe it is not uncommon to see an ES that is about 3x larger than the SD. That is in line with the theory, assuming muzzle velocity is a Normal (Gaussian) distribution. Which it appears to be when you plot it in Excel. [The theory says you will likely see an ES that is at least 5x bigger than SD if you shoot say 10,000 rounds. ?]
Don’t get hung up on ES. It is a metric affected by only two shots (slowest and fastest). Only the outliers count. It is better to rely on SD, since it is a more reliable statistical indicator, as all the shots contribute, so ‘unlucky’ outliers average out eventually.
I record SD and ES over at least 30 shots (a culled batch of old brass), sometimes 50 (new batch). I have never seen a single digit ES (so less than 9.9 fps) even when SD is 4 or 5 fps. For small batches of 5, yes it does happens now and then, but it is somewhat meaningless. Luck.
If you shoot 50 or 100 rounds using the same load recipe it is not uncommon to see an ES that is about 3x larger than the SD. That is in line with the theory, assuming muzzle velocity is a Normal (Gaussian) distribution. Which it appears to be when you plot it in Excel. [The theory says you will likely see an ES that is at least 5x bigger than SD if you shoot say 10,000 rounds. ?]
Don’t get hung up on ES. It is a metric affected by only two shots (slowest and fastest). Only the outliers count. It is better to rely on SD, since it is a more reliable statistical indicator, as all the shots contribute, so ‘unlucky’ outliers average out eventually.
I record SD and ES over at least 30 shots (a culled batch of old brass), sometimes 50 (new batch). I have never seen a single digit ES (so less than 9.9 fps) even when SD is 4 or 5 fps. For small batches of 5, yes it does happens now and then, but it is somewhat meaningless. Luck.
Does Alpha brass have less volume than Hornady? I only ask since I al loading 42.1 grains of RL14 with 140 ELD-M's and no pressure signs.
Yes. I can't remember the exact H2O capacity for both, but the Alpha takes a full 2+ grains less to reach the same pressure and velocities.
If you're saying your load is 42.1 grains of RL16 (I'm assuming you meant 16) in Hornady brass, that's pretty typical. I'd say around 99% of 6.5 Creedmoor shooters using Hornady brass end up between 41.8 and 42.2 grains with either H4350 or RL16
Well decided to do some more load development with RL 16. The 43.3 had the best group but th 43.2 had the best numbers. I would like to get the ES lower although I am not sure how to tweek this load to lower the ES or maybe go up a bit on the charge weight to see if it flattens out a bit more. Thoughts?
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Just getting started w/ load dev and I have to say I'm pretty impressed w/ my rifle so far (Impact Precision action & Proof Stainless 1:8 24" barrel). This is nine test rounds 40.2gr - 42.5gr of H4350 with Hornady 140 ELD's, 1x fired Lapua brass, and CCi-450 primers. Velocity ranged from 2663 - 2888.
Started load development with my PVA nucleus 26" 6.5 creedmoor.
Components used are:
Virgin Lapua 6.5 SRP brass
CCI #450
Hodgdon H4350 40.5-43.5 in .3gr increments
Hornady 147 ELD Match
Seated to 2.80"
Velocity from Labradar.
Factory Hornady 147 ELD M
2696
2679
2681
2705
2710
2720
2694
2698
2688
?
ES: 41.61 SD: 13.53 AVG: 2696.72
40.5
2631
2635
2615
ES: 19.05 SD: 10.18 AVG: 2627.08
40.8
2635
2631
2622
ES: 13.27 SD: 6.71 AVG: 2629.33
41.1
2677
2646
2654
ES: 30.93 SD: 16.03 AVG: 2659.34
41.4
2664
2655
2661
ES: 8.74 SD: 4.45 AVG: 2660.12
41.7
2685
2695
2667
ES: 27.65 SD: 14.07 AVG: 2682.18
42.0
?
2707
2689
ES: 18.03 SD: 12.75 AVG: 2698.39
42.3
2725
2720
2719
ES: 6.62 SD: 3.45 AVG: 2721.46
42.6
?
2742
2724
ES: 18.57 SD: 13.13 AVG: 2733
42.9
2742
2745
2733
ES: 12.19 SD: 6.27 AVG: 2739.84
43.2
2764
2753
2746
ES: 18.54 SD 9.32 AVG: 2754.2
43.5
2767
2772
2773
ES: 6.07 SD: 3.19 AVG: 2770.83
All brass looks excellent, and groups are pretty good also. Shot in order NOT round robin. Thinking 42.3-42.9 is a node based on nearly identical POI. Also looks like 43.2-43.5+ could be another node. Was hoping to see 2800+, will it get faster now that the brass is fired? Do I dare go higher than 43.5?
Never really done an OCW, always just loaded 5 of each and shot them, best group i loaded more and if they still grouped good, that was my load. Not sure how to proceed without wasting barrel life.
Components used are:
Virgin Lapua 6.5 SRP brass
CCI #450
Hodgdon H4350 40.5-43.5 in .3gr increments
Hornady 147 ELD Match
Seated to 2.80"
Velocity from Labradar.
Factory Hornady 147 ELD M
2696
2679
2681
2705
2710
2720
2694
2698
2688
?
ES: 41.61 SD: 13.53 AVG: 2696.72
40.5
2631
2635
2615
ES: 19.05 SD: 10.18 AVG: 2627.08
40.8
2635
2631
2622
ES: 13.27 SD: 6.71 AVG: 2629.33
41.1
2677
2646
2654
ES: 30.93 SD: 16.03 AVG: 2659.34
41.4
2664
2655
2661
ES: 8.74 SD: 4.45 AVG: 2660.12
41.7
2685
2695
2667
ES: 27.65 SD: 14.07 AVG: 2682.18
42.0
?
2707
2689
ES: 18.03 SD: 12.75 AVG: 2698.39
42.3
2725
2720
2719
ES: 6.62 SD: 3.45 AVG: 2721.46
42.6
?
2742
2724
ES: 18.57 SD: 13.13 AVG: 2733
42.9
2742
2745
2733
ES: 12.19 SD: 6.27 AVG: 2739.84
43.2
2764
2753
2746
ES: 18.54 SD 9.32 AVG: 2754.2
43.5
2767
2772
2773
ES: 6.07 SD: 3.19 AVG: 2770.83
All brass looks excellent, and groups are pretty good also. Shot in order NOT round robin. Thinking 42.3-42.9 is a node based on nearly identical POI. Also looks like 43.2-43.5+ could be another node. Was hoping to see 2800+, will it get faster now that the brass is fired? Do I dare go higher than 43.5?
Never really done an OCW, always just loaded 5 of each and shot them, best group i loaded more and if they still grouped good, that was my load. Not sure how to proceed without wasting barrel life.
I've been running the 130gr Berger AR Hybrids in both my barrels with great success. My current load is 43.0gr of H4350 in Lapua Brass, 2.236" CBTO which gives me about 0.010" jump. It hammers at 2900 fps and an SD of 7 on a 24.5" X-cal 3 groove barrel. I have seen the odd pressure sign when wet so I'm probably gonna back it down a hair.
I have shot groups from 41.5gr to 43.0gr and they all shoot less than 0.75 MOA.
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i loaded up a batch of 147 ELD-M with 41.9gr of H4350. Getting 2800fps with an SD around 10 using Hornady brass and CCI primers. Shoot great. Gonna run these for PRS
Is this looking like 41.5gr to you guys as well? It's not as flat as I would like it, but it seems to be fairly obvious.
Oh, and yeah I went up to 2960 fps. Ruined that piece of brass. Oops!
Oh, and yeah I went up to 2960 fps. Ruined that piece of brass. Oops!
Yes.
I have yet to own a creedmoor barrel (sample of 8) that didn't have a node in the 41.3-41.5 grain range with 140 eld and H4350. There is usually another at 42.5-42.7 however it tends to be a bit more narrow.
I have yet to own a creedmoor barrel (sample of 8) that didn't have a node in the 41.3-41.5 grain range with 140 eld and H4350. There is usually another at 42.5-42.7 however it tends to be a bit more narrow.
Just RCBS to FL size and a basic RCBS to seat. I use an expander mandrel separately though.
That's interesting. I'm assuming you're pulling the expander ball out of the die and allowing the mandrel to expand for you? Just curious. I have the same die set and when I tried it this way, it was sizing down the neck way too far (13 thousands)
Did a similar test a few days ago, also on a new MPA 6.5 CM, using Lapua 4x fired brass, FL sized, and Berger 140 Hybrids (with a long jump), and my graph looks remarkably similar. Same / similar big jump in speed from 2650 to 2730 fps for only 0.3 gn more powder. Still need to optimize seating depth.
Started at 39.5 gn and stopped at 41.7 gn due to faint half moons and harder than normal bolt lift... Lapua brass is a little thicker than say Hornady, so less volume. I probably could have gone up more. Chamber dimensions (and reamer specs) must be very similar or near identical between our rifles.
Did you also conclude that the chamber is cut closer to min SAAMI spec than max spec? Very little slop if a factory round is chambered. I needed a full grain less powder to reach the same speeds that i got with my Shilen match barrel before.
Absolutely. I’m glad you brought this up.
I used to shoot 43.4gr in my Seekins Havak Bravo with all other factors the same except the rifle. Same brass with same number of firings. Same load. Even the same lots of powder and bullets. 43.4 would probably hurt the MPA.
I couldn’t go higher than 41.8 without seeing ejector marks, but they didn’t start showing up til 42.5~ with the Seekins.
Hey guys,
So, I just built my daughter a 6.5CM with a 16.5” Barrel for hunting. She’s going to get her first elk in October and I’m looking to see what kind of powder recommendations you have. I was thinking H4350 but with the shorter barrel I’ve seen some posts of guys using RE17 to get the velocity’s up. Looking to run 140 ELD-M’s. I’ve also seen some using RE16, and even Varget for lighter bullets. Being it’s an Elk Hunt I want to er on the heavyset 140 bullets.
What do you guys think? Anyone running and of the above mentioned powders with heavy 6.5 bullets from short barrels with good results? If so, what’s you load data?
That’s in advance.
S/F
Seth
So, I just built my daughter a 6.5CM with a 16.5” Barrel for hunting. She’s going to get her first elk in October and I’m looking to see what kind of powder recommendations you have. I was thinking H4350 but with the shorter barrel I’ve seen some posts of guys using RE17 to get the velocity’s up. Looking to run 140 ELD-M’s. I’ve also seen some using RE16, and even Varget for lighter bullets. Being it’s an Elk Hunt I want to er on the heavyset 140 bullets.
What do you guys think? Anyone running and of the above mentioned powders with heavy 6.5 bullets from short barrels with good results? If so, what’s you load data?
That’s in advance.
S/F
Seth
Sorry Seth. No input on the shorter barrel but does the 140 ELDM do well against meat? I’ve only shot it with paper. Would be curious to know!
The 140 ELD has put down two mule deer each with one shot apiece for me.
553 yards
And this one at 300 something.
Plus another four or five mulies if you count the old 140 a-max.
553 yards
And this one at 300 something.
Plus another four or five mulies if you count the old 140 a-max.
Nice! Yeah, I have heard of a lot of good results on game pushing the ELDM.
