6.5 Creedmoor

[Bbracken667]

I have an intrinsic love for HPBT bullets. Just out of curiosity, does anyone else “drill” out the hollow point tip? I use a very small bit that is just barely larger (a matter of thousandths) than the existing hole and hand drill (not powered) to open it up as well as true it up a tiny bit.
I can’t honestly say that it helps the accuracy any, for certain, but I do feel that the end ballistics are improved somewhat. Again, I have zero objective data to work with.

 

[markl323]

I found out today I have been holding the gun incorrectly (G1-G5). I made the correction and the groups improved dramatically (G6-G10). Before today I could do sub 0.4MOA here and there but it was never consistent. Today is the first time I see consistent results. I wish I spent the money on the classes at the beginning. It would have saved me a few months and a bunch of precious components (Berger 144 HT that nobody is selling anymore).

 

[BCP]

Anyone with a go-to load 6.5 Staball + 140 ELD Match Hornady? Seems like I had some OK loads around 41grains but everything else up to 43 was not great. Wondering if I need to go higher. I've got 8lbs of staball and 800 of the bullets was kinda hoping it would just go together no problem.

 

[Bbracken667]

I would go over 43 grains in .1 increments beginning with a COL of at least 2.850 or longer. You should find something up there.

 

[R_A_W]

does anyone else “drill” out the hollow point tip? I use a very small bit that is just barely larger (a matter of thousandths) than the existing hole and hand drill (not powered) to open it up as well as true it up a tiny bit.

I don’t know what your manual drill set up is, but a bit that small will probably have enough deflection to be counter productive. Conventional meplat trimming would be more consistent.

Meplat trimming achieves greater uniformity & barely alters the BC on any abnormal bullets … but it’s pretty minimal IIRC. If you’re chasing small groups, your time might be better spent ordering large quantities of high-quality bullets from the same lot & then sorting by weight. Neither would do much for the terminal ballistics you may be after, however

 

[4O6shootist]

I don’t know what your manual drill set up is, but a bit that small will probably have enough deflection to be counter productive. Conventional meplat trimming would be more consistent.

Meplat trimming achieves greater uniformity & barely alters the BC on any abnormal bullets … but it’s pretty minimal IIRC. If you’re chasing small groups, your time might be better spent ordering large quantities of high-quality bullets from the same lot & then sorting by weight. Neither would do much for the terminal ballistics you may be after, however

Using wire drill bits to ensure Berger hybrib, vld and elite hunter tips(not lrht, as they're pointed shut) are open is nothing new and been going on for a long time. When the bullets are manufactured, one the final steps is polishing, and the media can plug the tips. When this happens expansion becomes very inconsistent. Opening the tip back up and removing the media, ensuring no blockage to the lead core, gives them all pretty consistent performance.

 

[R_A_W]

That's interesting, I've actually never heard of that. The wire bit isn't cutting the jacket at all, correct? E.g. it's all about expansion & not BC uniformity?

eta - & I'm guessing there is some sort of die to use this w/ a drill press or hand crank?
eta2 - Forster Hollow Pointer

 

[Thump_rrr]

That's interesting, I've actually never heard of that. The wire bit isn't cutting the jacket at all, correct? E.g. it's all about expansion & not BC uniformity?

eta - & I'm guessing there is some sort of die to use this w/ a drill press or hand crank?

There are meplat trimmers that can be used if more uniformity in length is desired.
Wire gauge drill bits can be used with a pin vise.
Search on Amazon for pin vise and you can find sets that include dril bits for not much money or you can pay 10x the price for Starett

 

[4O6shootist]

That's interesting, I've actually never heard of that. The wire bit isn't cutting the jacket at all, correct? E.g. it's all about expansion & not BC uniformity?

eta - & I'm guessing there is some sort of die to use this w/ a drill press or hand crank?
eta2 - Forster Hollow Pointer

Started when guys started hunting at distance with match bullets. It will only open the tip to the same or a very small amount over what Berger sells them. This is just to confirm no plugged noses and open to lead core below. Pretty much just for consistency in expansion. Meplating dies will lower BC by a small percent but make more consistent, then there are guys who meplat then run through a tipping die to close the open nose back up, gaining bc back. All that is way too much work for me and unnecessary in my shooting disciplines.

 

[Bbracken667]

I don’t know what your manual drill set up is, but a bit that small will probably have enough deflection to be counter productive. Conventional meplat trimming would be more consistent.

Meplat trimming achieves greater uniformity & barely alters the BC on any abnormal bullets … but it’s pretty minimal IIRC. If you’re chasing small groups, your time might be better spent ordering large quantities of high-quality bullets from the same lot & then sorting by weight. Neither would do much for the terminal ballistics you may be after, however

For the HPBT I use the terminal ballistics refers to its behavior once impact takes place and shortly thereafter. The small bits barely make a change other than assuring a consistent sized hole and I am not drilling out any appreciable material. I really haven’t seen much difference, if any, in accuracy. Seems hard, for me, to quantify much of a difference in what could be described, I suppose, by change in the BC of any.
I think the end result may require the use of ballistic gel blocks which is above my capabilities.
I appreciate the replies. Just for clarity I am doing this to improve and provide consistency for the end results of the impact damage, with a question regarding accuracy as a side effect.

 

[Bbracken667]

Started when guys started hunting at distance with match bullets. It will only open the tip to the same or a very small amount over what Berger sells them. This is just to confirm no plugged noses and open to lead core below. Pretty much just for consistency in expansion. Meplating dies will lower BC by a small percent but make more consistent, then there are guys who meplat then run through a tipping die to close the open nose back up, gaining bc back. All that is way too much work for me and unnecessary in my shooting disciplines.

Yeah, not doing all that myself, just opening the hollow point up for consistency of end effect. They are quite effective, imo, along the lines of the Berger “tactical” bullets or the ones often used by PD’s but with better BC’s than that other brand, which I won’t mention.
I appreciate your reply, as I had not heard of anyone else doing this before your confirmation and others here.

 

[Bbracken667]

There are meplat trimmers that can be used if more uniformity in length is desired.
Wire gauge drill bits can be used with a pin vise.
Search on Amazon for pin vise and you can find sets that include dril bits for not much money or you can pay 10x the price for Starett

I use “wire gauge” bits with a small hand powered “hand drill” designed to use such tiny bits. The one I typically use is barely larger than the hollow point and mainly trues up the hole. Wasn’t looking for meplat trimmers or anything like that. It’s the end ballistics I am mainly interested in. A closed up meplat, to a degree, reduces the effect of a hollow point. I would love to see these tested in ballistic bell. However I currently live in Dallas Metro and have no access to the kind of area or freedom when, if I could get the gel, to test. Perhaps once I move to NC I will be in better environs to perform tests

 

[Bbracken667]

That's interesting, I've actually never heard of that. The wire bit isn't cutting the jacket at all, correct? E.g. it's all about expansion & not BC uniformity?

eta - & I'm guessing there is some sort of die to use this w/ a drill press or hand crank?
eta2 - Forster Hollow Pointer

Essentially that is absolutely correct. The hole is expanded with a minimal, if any, amount of material removed and the cavity below the meplat is not touched. The hand drill is hand powered so one has a close and sensitive feel for the activity. It’s all about opening up the hole and making it consistent. Seems obvious that the manufacturing process, shipping etc would ding the heck out of the points, occasionally all but closing the holes up entirely in the more extreme cases. I am including a pic of the drill and bit. They are available in Amaz_n for example. The pic includes a Hornady 140grain 6.5 mm HPBT for scales
FYI: we are not drilling high speed into stainless steel so there is no deflection or such . There is just a very tiny amount of soft material removed to increase and true up the hole.

 

[R_A_W]

if I could get the gel

You can make your own gel blocks with off the shelf gelatin for a casual test

DIY Guide to Making Your Own Affordable Ballistics Gel

In this article, we'll show you how to make your own affordable homemade ballistics gel for performing your own ammunition tests!

www.thefirearmblog.com

However, grocery store gelatin won't be identical to the FBI rated ones, see post #8 here about gelatin bloom strength

HOMEMADE BALLISTICS GEL - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

 

[Bbracken667]

You can make your own gel blocks with off the shelf gelatin for a casual test

DIY Guide to Making Your Own Affordable Ballistics Gel

In this article, we'll show you how to make your own affordable homemade ballistics gel for performing your own ammunition tests!

www.thefirearmblog.com

However, grocery store gelatin won't be identical to the FBI rated ones, see post #8 here about gelatin bloom strength

HOMEMADE BALLISTICS GEL - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

The problem is I do not have a place to set it up and shoot it. That is limitation #1. Once past that I am sure I could work something up to do some comparison testing whether it would be buying a couple of pork butts or even a brisket or 2 (this is Texas lol) at the extreme. I am hoping once we move we will be moving into more reasonable circumstances. Living in North Dallas Metro means a heck of a drive to get to anywhere where shooting like that becomes reasonable and I know no one with property out in the country like that. I used to live in the country in MS and could shoot whenever I liked. I miss those days.

 

[moonstalanda]

Does anyone know what to make of the horizontal strining in the second group? Is this shooter error or a load problem?

 

[4O6shootist]

Does anyone know what to make of the horizontal strining in the second group? Is this shooter error or a load problem?View attachment 8213278

The horizontal group size of 2 and 3 looks to be very close. I'd try 42.2gr and tweak seating depth a bet.

 

[Bbracken667]

Does anyone know what to make of the horizontal strining in the second group? Is this shooter error or a load problem?View attachment 8213278

Normally I consider, in my shooting, horizontal is my shooting or wind, vertical is “other cause”. This looks like you have found your load or very close to it. Verify.

 

[moonstalanda]

Normally I consider, in my shooting, horizontal is my shooting or wind, vertical is “other cause”. This looks like you have found your load or very close to it. Verify.

Thank you. Would you suggest I load up the 42 and 42.3 again and try at 200? FWIW these are Berger 140 VLD Hunting. COAL avg. 2.815

 

[Bbracken667]

Thank you. Would you suggest I load up the 42 and 42.3 again and try at 200? FWIW these are Berger 140 VLD Hunting. COAL avg. 2.815

By verify I mean duplicate all aspects and see if you get the same results. Make no changes until you can duplicate results. Then work on seating depth refinement or perhaps narrowing the charge first. Your call, but verify first before changing anything.

 

[Coyote777]

Here is a light 90g load I came up with out of my Christensen 12.5” MPP/SBR. Used for varmits.

Lapua SRP
CCI BR4
Varget-43.5g
90g Nosler Varmageddon
BSD-2.075
FPS-2880
Avg ES-11
Std Dev-4.6
Avg 5 shot groups-.600’s

 

[moonstalanda]

Here is a light 90g load I came up with out of my Christensen 12.5” MPP/SBR. Used for varmits.

Lapua SRP
CCI BR4
Varget-43.5g
90g Nosler Varmageddon
BSD-2.075
FPS-2880
Avg ES-11
Std Dev-4.6
Avg 5 shot groups-.600’s

Nice! Have you tested anything heavier? I have this rig

 

[Coyote777]

Nice! Have you tested anything heavier? I have this rig

No sir just a 90g Speer TNT. My main goal was to try and keep the velocity up due to wanting it pretty flat shooting a night with thermal etc. Works great being 12.5” barrel.

 

[moonstalanda]

makes sense! Thanks for the data

 

[welditforyou]

Greetings shooters,
I watched the Hornady video about the 6.5 CM.
They mention that it was designed with the 143 gr bullet.
Just as the Grendel was designed with the 123 gr bullet.
Guys here are using lighter bullets of a variety for their purpose.
Seems you guys are getting the accuracy that you want from these
lighter bullets. So . . . why would Hornady design the cartridge
around a heavier bullet when you guys are getting competition
level accuracy? Just an observation so beat me up over the question please.
I ask this because I'm getting ready to run some 6.5 CM and rely heavily on
the experience of those who came before me.

 

[Bbracken667]

There is no problem using a 140/143/147 grain bullet with the 6.5 cm. Those using lighter bullets are doing so for specific purposes. I have been playing around with the 123 gn ELDM to experience a significantly faster and flatter (initially) shooting round. For me, I just love experimenting and learning.
With a 100 gr ELDM you may be looking at 3200 ft/sec, which is burning it! It won’t be as effective at longer ranges as, say, a 147 eldm or the 143 eldx. At shorter range though, the effect of that MV would be devastating on varmints.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

Greetings shooters,
I watched the Hornady video about the 6.5 CM.
They mention that it was designed with the 143 gr bullet.
Just as the Grendel was designed with the 123 gr bullet.
Guys here are using lighter bullets of a variety for their purpose.
Seems you guys are getting the accuracy that you want from these
lighter bullets. So . . . why would Hornady design the cartridge
around a heavier bullet when you guys are getting competition
level accuracy? Just an observation so beat me up over the question please.
I ask this because I'm getting ready to run some 6.5 CM and rely heavily on
the experience of those who came before me.

Because with a shorter CM case they could load a heavier, longer bullet within the COAL confines of a short action mag box. Which hadn't been done with the .260 Rem.

 

[Bbracken667]

Playing around a bit. Using GRT (similar to quick load) and a node app to see how close I can come to predicting best load with the least usage of materials.
Has anyone tried or heard of similar? Specifically, I am using GRT to generate a barrel time number based on my available info and materials and matching that up to my barrel’s vibration nodes.

 

[Falconi]

Got new barrel, krieger 27,3" 7.5 twist.

Shot only 20 rounds through it, Scenar L 136 with N550 40,7 gr was best group 3/4 MOA. BR-2 primers and Lapua brass.

Is there any luck with Berger Hybrid Targets? ELD-M:s is hard to get here right now (they shot best with previous shilen). Also thinking trying N555, it was better with SDs than N550.

 

[Islas82]

Is the barnes 145 match burners any good? Or what bullets

145s shot really well out of my 26” proof barrel at first but after switching to 144 Berger’s for about 500 rounds and then coming back to them the wouldn’t group at 100 yds anymore. Probably throats erosion and need to push them a bit closer to lands at new seating depth.

 

[4O6shootist]

H4350, 38.8gr
Berger 153.5 LRHT, 30k jump
Lapua SRP, cci450
Velocity 2630fps es mid teens

27" Hawkhill 7.5tw hvy comp on a CDG
This was a fouling/zero session this afternoon in prep for match tomorrow.

 

[bf2junky]

Finalizing my load for Arena Training Facility trip in late October.

H4350 42.3gr
140gr Hybrid Target, .020” jump
Lapua SRP and CCI450
2867fps 4.6SD 13ES

26” PMR Pro 2

 

[Bbracken667]

Finalizing my load for Arena Training Facility trip in late October.

H4350 42.3gr
140gr Hybrid Target, .020” jump
Lapua SRP and CCI450
2867fps 4.6SD 13ES

26” PMR Pro 2

Nice job! How are you managing to get the 2867 fps?

 

[4O6shootist]

Nice job! How are you managing to get the 2867 fps?

Higher psi, 26" barrel with a stiff dose of H4350. Lapua brass is good stuff.

 

[bf2junky]

Higher psi, 26" barrel with a stiff dose of H4350. Lapua brass is good stuff.

Yeah, I’m .3 of Bergers stated max load. No signs of pressure issues though.

 

[Bbracken667]

Yeah, I’m .3 of Bergers stated max load. No signs of pressure issues though.

If I may ask, what is berger’s stated max for the 140 and H4350? It is rather higher than Hornady s listed max for a 140 gn. They show 41.5 for 2700 fps as I remember.

Interesting, for a similar style bullet Sierra shows 42.6 as a max. I just love the consistency lol

 

[bf2junky]

If I may ask, what is berger’s stated max for the 140 and H4350? It is rather higher than Hornady s listed max for a 140 gn. They show 41.5 for 2700 fps as I remember.

Interesting, for a similar style bullet Sierra shows 42.6 as a max. I just love the consistency lol

Sure, this is direct from Berger. They'll email any load data you want if you request on their site.

 

[4O6shootist]

Sure, this is direct from Berger. They'll email any load data you want if you request on their site.

If this is load data in Hornady brass, I bet this all lines up. Drop this into lapua, alpha, Peterson with a 26" barrel, it'll likely add 100fps

 

[StrayDog]

And cook the barrel faster!

 

[Coyote777]

And cook the barrel faster!

You only live once!

 

[bf2junky]

And cook the barrel faster!

Not worried about that. Just buy a new one. I shoot a lot for not being a competition shooter.

 

[Bbracken667]

Sure, this is direct from Berger. They'll email any load data you want if you request on their site.

Muchly appreciated!

 

[Bbracken667]

And cook the barrel faster!

The maillard reaction makes everything better! LoL
I used to push the speed/pressure limit, but after replacing a bolthead twice (Valkyrie), and prematurely replacing brass fairly consistently I now surf the safer zones. Just as accurate if not more so, and I don’t have to wonder if I am passing the red line. I am using Lapua brass and will have 20 shootings as a target, if not more. Being retired I look at things a bit differently.

 

[Coyote777]

The maillard reaction makes everything better! LoL
I used to push the speed/pressure limit, but after replacing a bolthead twice (Valkyrie), and prematurely replacing brass fairly consistently I now surf the safer zones. Just as accurate if not more so, and I don’t have to wonder if I am passing the red line. I am using Lapua brass and will have 20 shootings as a target, if not more. Being retired I look at things a bit differently.

Yes sir, faster is not always better for sure. If I can find a node on the higher end that is accurate and consistent then I will go with it vs slower. Like my 12.5” 6.5 it did not like it in the 2700fps range with the lighter bullets. Around 2800+ it started coming together.

 

[Bbracken667]

Yes sir, faster is not always better for sure. If I can find a node on the higher end that is accurate and consistent then I will go with it vs slower. Like my 12.5” 6.5 it did not like it in the 2700fps range with the lighter bullets. Around 2800+ it started coming together.

You are getting 2800fps out of a 12.5” barrel? Whoooeee dang. I have no words lol

 

[Coyote777]

You are getting 2800fps out of a 12.5” barrel? Whoooeee dang. I have no words lol

Haha yes sir. Sending a 90g nosler at 2880. It’s only used for varmit hunting. Wanted it shooting as flat as possible for night hunting. Shoots .5-.6 pretty regular.

 

[Bbracken667]

Haha yes sir. Sending a 90g nosler at 2880. It’s only used for varmit hunting. Wanted it shooting as flat as possible for night hunting. Shoots .5-.6 pretty regular.

I missed the 90 gn part. No wonder they are barn burners lol. I can dig the flat shooting part.
You could call those “shredders”

 

[TCreedmoor]

I'm contemplating a Ultradyne Apollo LR Compensator Muzzle Brake for my Savage 10 APO 6.5 Creedmoor. I currently do not have any muzzle brake on the rifle, but this one performed very well in a testing by GunTuber Ultimate Reloader.

I don't want to the "that guy" at the outdoor range who's blasting people at the adjacent shooting tables.

Comments? Suggestions? Alternative brakes to consider?

 

[4O6shootist]

I'm contemplating a Ultradyne Apollo LR Compensator Muzzle Brake for my Savage 10 APO 6.5 Creedmoor. I currently do not have any muzzle brake on the rifle, but this one performed very well in a testing by GunTuber Ultimate Reloader.

I don't want to the "that guy" at the outdoor range who's blasting people at the adjacent shooting tables.

Comments? Suggestions? Alternative brakes to consider?

The best brake(arguably) you can buy for recoil mitigation that isn't stupid big, is the apa lil bastard gen3. Want a good brake that prevents muzzle rise but has straight points to reduce rearward concussion, it's the Ace brake. Another good one is the precision armament hypertap with the top ports drilled open. Gavin Tool or whatever on UR, charges people to do reviews, so he's biased as heck.

 

[bf2junky]

The best brake(arguably) you can buy for recoil mitigation that isn't stupid big, is the apa lil bastard gen3. Want a good brake that prevents muzzle rise but has straight points to reduce rearward concussion, it's the Ace brake. Another good one is the precision armament hypertap with the top ports drilled open. Gavin Tool or whatever on UR, charges people to do reviews, so he's biased as heck.

Been reloading for about 3 months and never really enjoyed UR at all.