6.5 Grendel

[FuhQ]

Hornady Black 123 ELD was in stock on Midway USA a few nights ago, at like 11pm... Apparently in VERY limited quantities... I think I bought the last bit they had...And overpaid by about $14 a box compared to previous prices. Used to be $19.99-$24.99 a box, but it was $33.99 a box. I need the brass, and loaded ammo was the only thing available. A bit overpriced, but what are you gonna do right now otherwise... I hit submit order, and then immediately checked the product again, and it was out of stock. Damn, cut that close, glad I was awake to get the notification...Because I clicked IMMEDIATELY as that email came in.

 

[Snuby642]

And people laughed as I swept up range brass and put in my ruck.

LOL

Had a problem with my 6.5g scarring shoulders. I have polished the feed ramps, added an agb.

Only a couple boxes of factory rounds left, some sst123 and some 123 smk on the way.

I did some measurements and the smk is 0.030 longer than sst, the 130 Berger hybrid tac is longer and the 135 berger hybrid hunter I want to use is longer yet.

I'm thinking 223cfe is denser than the powders I'm nearly out of, maybe I can pack enough in the case?

 

[jambau]

Last trip to range yielded 153 cases of 223, 40 308's and 50 9mm. I'm going today for another look. Trust me, we're all scrounging.

 

[FCS]

Possibly but pretty sure you’ll pressure up with CFE223 when go deeper in case and/or heavier bullet weight. CFE223 has been a bit more peaky, pressures up rapidly than other powders in my experience.
100 / 120 SMK, 120 Scenar, 100 / 120 Nosler BT, 120 Amax/ELD-M, 120 Berger all do really well and have been much more tractable bullet than the 123 versions.
Choices are slim so gotta use what you can find but IMHO, go with a more 9-11 ogive radius vs 13-15 ogive radius for accuracy, easier to work with bullet.

 

[FuhQ]

And people laughed as I swept up range brass and put in my ruck.

LOL

Had a problem with my 6.5g scarring shoulders. I have polished the feed ramps, added an agb.

Only a couple boxes of factory rounds left, some sst123 and some 123 smk on the way.

I did some measurements and the smk is 0.030 longer than sst, the 130 Berger hybrid tac is longer and the 135 berger hybrid hunter I want to use is longer yet.

I'm thinking 223cfe is denser than the powders I'm nearly out of, maybe I can pack enough in the case?

I run CFE-223 in my Grendel loads.

I also used to pickup range brass everywhere I went. Folks thought I was cheap or crazy... Well, who’s crazy now.

 

[jambau]

 

[Snuby642]

Not sure of the ratios but yes tangent and hybrids.

I believe secant ogive bullets are near useless in mag lenght guns.
We have a Ruger 308 that is basically mag lenght and I will never try to get a secant ogive to fly strait again in.

The cfe223 is touchy about the time it's close to compressed I found out. From now on I will probably not try running it compressed again. Oopsy !

I want to see how much I can get out of my 20 inch barrel with preferably an expanding bullet.

Reality is I may have to have 2 6.5g rounds.
An expanding 300 + yd round.
And a 600 + yd range round.

Trying to stay within reality for a 20 inch barrel and the amount of travel in the 30mm scope.

I'm an in the closet dial up guy. Lol

 

[Snuby642]

I run CFE-223 in my Grendel loads.

I also used to pickup range brass everywhere I went. Folks thought I was cheap or crazy... Well, who’s crazy now.

@MudRunner2005
Would you care to share your cfe223 loads for the gendel ?

I basically have to start from scratch for mine.

 

[bobke]

Snuby
I’ll have to respectfully disagree with your comment on secant ogive bullets not shooting in 6.5 Grendel. I have six of various lengths and twist rates and they shoot 123 Sierra MK and Scenars quite well at 2.265 over AR Comp. in fact, best group I’ve ever shot from an AR was with the 123 Sierra and ARC combo using CCI 41’s in a 24” Satern cut rifled barrel.
That said, have retreated to a more significant inventory of Nosler 123 CC’s that will also shoot quite well. YRMV, but this reflects a lot of rounds down range in a handful of Grendels.
Used a lot of CFE 223 as well, and it seems to perform best at near 100% case capacity. Have migrated largely to AR Comp in 120 class bullets for both accuracy and temp stability in range of conditions in Texas.

 

[FuhQ]

@MudRunner2005
Would you care to share your cfe223 loads for the gendel ?

I basically have to start from scratch for mine.

I’ll have to look when I get home, can’t remember off the top.

 

[Snuby642]

I'm still just learning and welcome all the mentoring I can get.

I have a box of the 123 smk's in transit . Thing is I was under the impression that smk's are more of a tangent ogive. I have had poor results with secant ogive bullets in short (mag length) actions.

My thoughts were that a longer nose robbed me of case capacity and created a long jump to the lands. In case of some the ogive was nearly back to the case mouth to get it to mag lenght.

The shorter nose of a tangent ogive bullet had me closer to the lands and less bullet in the case was what seemed like I was getting.

I just looked up all of Berger's and that appeared to be the case.

Most of the secant bullets tried (in 308) with a short mag lenght magazine worked poorly and the diffrent shape of the smk's quickly sorted that out.

Please advise. And please share any cfe223 or H335 loads that worked well because that's about all I have decent amounts of left.

I have thick skin so no need to allow for any stupidity on my part.

 

[FCS]

Snuby
I’ll have to respectfully disagree with your comment on secant ogive bullets not shooting in 6.5 Grendel. I have six of various lengths and twist rates and they shoot 123 Sierra MK and Scenars quite well at 2.265 over AR Comp. in fact, best group I’ve ever shot from an AR was with the 123 Sierra and ARC combo using CCI 41’s in a 24” Satern cut rifled barrel.
That said, have retreated to a more significant inventory of Nosler 123 CC’s that will also shoot quite well. YRMV, but this reflects a lot of rounds down range in a handful of Grendels.
Used a lot of CFE 223 as well, and it seems to perform best at near 100% case capacity. Have migrated largely to AR Comp in 120 class bullets for both accuracy and temp stability in range of conditions in Texas.

Saturn also uses, or used, a shorter freebore chamber that was geared more around the 107 & 123 ogive profile. May or may not be the case in your barrel but very distinct possibility you do not have a SAAMI 6.5 Grendel chamber.

What OAL touches lands w/123 SMK or NCC?

 

[Snuby642]

I thought I had got a modified case ordered but can't find it at the moment.

I'm hitting magazine max first with the hornady sst 123 checked with marked bullets. The barrel is a stoner possibly a Saturn button rifled I couldn't pass up for the price.

With hornady factory 123 it shot 1 1/8 moa but couldn't get varget to reproduce that, started working with cfe223 but stopped to install badly needed agb and polished the feed ramps, was scarring shoulders deep. The cases are 1.218 on fired rounds.

Coal matched factory 2.245
Bto is---- damn just realized never got that far before I stopped to deal with the 308.

I just got to factory specs ecept the shoulder.

My son was supposed to make me modified case on the lathe and I need another bullet comparitor.

I have been a bad boy, the disgrace is overwhelming.

This last year has sucked and the poor grendel got cast aside.

" I do solemnly swear to uphold the Constitution of the United Sates and treat my Grendel better till the day I die or run out of primers"

 

[bobke]

FCS
Actually have both 20/24” Satern cut rifled barrels, which have been exceptionally accurate, but as you’ve noted, short throated. Purchased a Manson throating reamer and opened/lengthened throats and cleaned up forcing cone/leade in so I can now run full mag length to 2.28+, if a seating depth test indicates I need to. Important here is the ‘need to’ equation. I have found optimum seating depth between 2.24 and 2.285, depending on bullet choice, barrel, powder, etc. I do not simply load at mag length unless data tells me so. Think that’s a common mistake, even with intermediate hand loaders, who should know better than assume that’s optimum. Test it and prove it to yourself.
All that said, my lands are now at the 2.3”+, so plenty of room to play with, and the throating has only improved what was already pretty solid accuracy.

 

[Oryx]

anyone shooting the 107 SMK's?

 

[jambau]

107 SMK
29.0 gr. of Reloader 15
CCI 450 primer
OAL=2.27

Typically turns in 3/4 MOA. I'm running a 24" barrel with rifle length gas. Reloads done on Hornady New Dimension dies.

 

[Eric_F]

anyone shooting the 107 SMK's?

I tried them with Ramshot Tac, couldn't get them to shoot well and gave up on it. I was looking to use it as a gas gun for PRS matches but built a bolt gun instead so I didn't put too much time into it. Sierra lists the highest velocities with Tac and a couple other powders I haven't ever seen.

 

[Oryx]

107 SMK
29.0 gr. of Reloader 15
CCI 450 primer
OAL=2.27

Typically turns in 3/4 MOA. I'm running a 24" barrel with rifle length gas. Reloads done on Hornady New Dimension dies.

Thanks .. I'll give this a try. I just picked up 1,000 and only have about 75 123 scenars left.

 

[Oryx]

I tried them with Ramshot Tac, couldn't get them to shoot well and gave up on it. I was looking to use it as a gas gun for PRS matches but built a bolt gun instead so I didn't put too much time into it. Sierra lists the highest velocities with Tac and a couple other powders I haven't ever seen.

I have about 1/2 -5/8 of a pound of Tac left.... I'll try it ... I'm a bit nervous it works out and I won't have any left!

 

[jambau]

Thanks .. I'll give this a try. I just picked up 1,000 and only have about 75 123 scenars left.

Where in the hell did you find 1k of anything??? Good score! I can't find it in my notes but I recall Benchmark worked really well too.

 

[Weapon_50BMG]

Lots of good info in this thread, going to start adding the components to my reloading room for Grendel and I can come back here some reference points.

 

[BoDuke80]

I'm still just learning and welcome all the mentoring I can get.

I have a box of the 123 smk's in transit . Thing is I was under the impression that smk's are more of a tangent ogive. I have had poor results with secant ogive bullets in short (mag length) actions.

My thoughts were that a longer nose robbed me of case capacity and created a long jump to the lands. In case of some the ogive was nearly back to the case mouth to get it to mag lenght.

The shorter nose of a tangent ogive bullet had me closer to the lands and less bullet in the case was what seemed like I was getting.

I just looked up all of Berger's and that appeared to be the case.

Most of the secant bullets tried (in 308) with a short mag lenght magazine worked poorly and the diffrent shape of the smk's quickly sorted that out.

Please advise. And please share any cfe223 or H335 loads that worked well because that's about all I have decent amounts of left.

I have thick skin so no need to allow for any stupidity on my part.

it all depends on the throat in your chamber. My Criterion 18in barrel will shoot sub moa with smk 120g or 123ncc 107tmk 108 0r 123 lapuas but it just will not shoot 123smk. It has a longer throat and loves the shorter pills. On the other hand my buddy has a cheap BCA barrel that eats those 123 smks like tootsie rolls. BUT if he tried some 120elds and jammed em in the rifleing when he seated them at 2.225. I can load the same pills to 2.250. You have to measure your throat and also know if its a compound or one of those saturn throats

 

[Snuby642]

Ya if I cant find my 264 bullet comparitor I will have to order a new one. I have a modified case so that will get me max coal when touching lands but not the ogive.

I have the smk 123's and the hornady sst.

If someone would get me a (rough) bto on those it would help.

I don't figure iether will hit the lands before hitting the magazine.
I plan on running new tests starting just shy of mag max and then backing up from there to fine tune.

Think I will try H335 since I have 8lb.

 

[EM_556]

Load Data
Bullet- Hornady 123gr ELD-M
Case- Hornady
Powder- IMR 8208 XBR - 28gr
Primer- Winchester Small Rifle
OAL- 2.266”

 

[J15]

120gr prvi partizan
Hornady brass
30.8 gr CFE 223
CCI400
OAL - 2.250

 

[BoDuke80]

Ya if I cant find my 264 bullet comparitor I will have to order a new one. I have a modified case so that will get me max coal when touching lands but not the ogive.

I have the smk 123's and the hornady sst.

If someone would get me a (rough) bto on those it would help.

I don't figure iether will hit the lands before hitting the magazine.
I plan on running new tests starting just shy of mag max and then backing up from there to fine tune.

Think I will try H335 since I have 8lb.

I know from my exp the 123 smk is a really long sleek bullet. You will run out of mag length b4 you get to the lands. If my memory serves the bto of the 123 smk was nearly as short as some 100g pills definitely the shortest 120 class bullet I've measured. If you have access to a lathe and some stock I would just machine a new one. I was using the Horney brand and for the most part it did the job. The bullet comp was better than the case comp. Depending on which case I was measuring none of the supplied comps would fit the shoulder in the right place. Either to small and was to high or to large and to far down the shoulder. The 308 and 223 had one that did a good job but with the Grendel for some reason it didn't have one that would read from a good spot. I just took measurements of the cuts that fit the comp body turned one down and cut the center to the right size and even added the shoulder angle so to get more even contact over a wider area. Since then I've made a custom comparitor for ea bottleneck case I reload.

 

[BoDuke80]

Ya if I cant find my 264 bullet comparitor I will have to order a new one. I have a modified case so that will get me max coal when touching lands but not the ogive.

I have the smk 123's and the hornady sst.

If someone would get me a (rough) bto on those it would help.

I don't figure iether will hit the lands before hitting the magazine.
I plan on running new tests starting just shy of mag max and then backing up from there to fine tune.

Think I will try H335 since I have 8lb.

I'm getting .660 bto on the 123 smk in a Hornady 5-26 comparitor no sst on hand

 

[Snuby642]

Thanks.
Power, heat and water outage has had me messed up for days.

Melting snow still today, at least roads are nearly clear so I can go get some water.

I had thought the SMK had a more forward ogive, not sure why?

 

[Oryx]

Where in the hell did you find 1k of anything??? Good score! I can't find it in my notes but I recall Benchmark worked really well too.

AT the time they were in Stock at Palmetto State Armory

 

[BoDuke80]

Thanks.
Power, heat and water outage has had me messed up for days.

Melting snow still today, at least roads are nearly clear so I can go get some water.

I had thought the SMK had a more forward ogive, not sure why?

Hey brother just wanna say ahead of time that I'm saying this to be a dickhead. You know snow is frozen water and fire is hot? Now I'm sure you do there's no way a fella making reloads n still has a face doesn't know those things. Fire + snow + metal pot =Agua. Ok seriously now I'm a plumber and so it's my brother. We just bought up every water heater in E.TN and loaded up his enclosed trailer. We are headed for Tyler TX in the morning to help out. Tell the truth to make some good money but either way be in TX soon

 

[BoDuke80]

H4895 works really well with middle weight bullets in about any chamber. Thought it may do well with the 107s or 108 pills in my 6.5. Given the fact H4895 is like having a bottle of 25 yr old single malt don't wanna waste a kernel. So any you fellas got data? I'm not gonna waste it on a lost cause. I have Tac n 2520 and lots of cfe223

 

[BoDuke80]

Hornady Black 123 ELD was in stock on Midway USA a few nights ago, at like 11pm... Apparently in VERY limited quantities... I think I bought the last bit they had...And overpaid by about $14 a box compared to previous prices. Used to be $19.99-$24.99 a box, but it was $33.99 a box. I need the brass, and loaded ammo was the only thing available. A bit overpriced, but what are you gonna do right now otherwise... I hit submit order, and then immediately checked the product again, and it was out of stock. Damn, cut that close, glad I was awake to get the notification...Because I clicked IMMEDIATELY as that email came in.

Food for thought. I have noticed that the H brand loaded ammo has a very light crimp. Found this out when I encountered a double feed a few months back. When I got back to the bench I measured all the black box stuff ant it was all spot on. In the bulk can of American Gunner there were a few that was off either +/- a couple thous. After seeing this I grabbed my good ole hammer puller n gave ea rnd a tap or two to get em all over 2.260. Then I got the seating die out and re-seated ea one to a oal my rifle likes with the 123bthp and hit em with a light crimp in a Lee factory crimp. The results blew me away. B4 all this no factory loaded Hrndy ammo would shoot close to moa and after they were consistently moa or better. If anyone gets bored enough to try this pls let me know your results.

 

[CaptNemo]

Near the Top End of the load - Work Up in your rifle !!!
Hunting Load
120g Nosler Ballistic Tip
30.8g CFE 223 -
Hornady Case
Win SRP
AR 15 w/ 18" Liberty Barrel ( Saturn Button Rifled ) w/ mid length gas
2435 FPS Ave 10.8 SD on the Lab Radar
Best group was a 5 shot group that was about .375" C-C @ 100.
Youngest daughter pissed me off blaming the rifle for poor marksmanship, I shot the 3/8" group to prove to her it wasn't the rifle....

 

[FuhQ]

Did some max safe load testing in my 24" 6.5 Grendel DMR yesterday... I didn't bring my MSV2, so I have no idea about speed, but I can tell you that with the Nosler 123 Custom Comp and Hodgdon CFE-223 powder, CCI 450 primers, and brand new (virgin) Hornady brass, 32.0 grains left an ejector swipe on 2 cases of 5. That's as far as I'll push it. So I know I'm safe up to 32.0 grains in my rifle. Now to start working with the smaller increments to find it's favorite charge somewhere between 30-32 grains. I'll probably load those up tomorrow for testing this weekend.

Hell my factory Hornady Match (#8150) ammo with the 123 A-Max that's rated (on the box) for 2,580 FPS MV was leaving some very light swipes. So that means I should have been pushing them right around the same ~2,600 FPS MV range...Maybe even faster with my 24" 5R barrel... I'll bring the chrono next time and find out. That's moving for a Grendel. Efficiency is just one of many reason why I love that little cartridge.

I can tell you one thing...When that 123 CC hit the metal 6" challenge tree gong at 100 yards, it smacked with some authority. It slapped it so hard it hit the other side of the tree, and then bounced all the way back over and reset itself. Then, later I hit the same one with my .300 BLK with 220 subsonics and the plate went flying off... I guess it broke the weld. Whoops...

 

[6.5SH]

FWIW 31.2 grains is the Hornady book max for 120-123 grain bullets and CFE-223.
CFE-223 also seems to be what was used in the 123 grain American Gunner offering, pull and dump showed 29.9 grains.

From my own experience the American Gunner is very temperature sensitive and can get into unsafe pressures once it is hot out.
When I still had some left and was using it for matches I took to keeping it in my backpack in a soft sided lunch box with a blue ice pack. The flat primers went away then.

 

[FuhQ]

FWIW 31.2 grains is the Hornady book max for 120-123 grain bullets and CFE-223.
CFE-223 also seems to be what was used in the 123 grain American Gunner offering, pull and dump showed 29.9 grains.

From my own experience the American Gunner is very temperature sensitive and can get into unsafe pressures once it is hot out.
When I still had some left and was using it for matches I took to keeping it in my backpack in a soft sided lunch box with a blue ice pack. The flat primers went away then.

Yeah, I've got quite a few manuals here. I've found over the years that book max is rarely the max for my guns. I'm not recommending anyone try anything over book max, I'm just saying how I do it. I accept my own risk. So I'm not going to tell anyone else how to do things.

But yeah, I've always done load development a little different than most folks. I do a safe max set 25 (5 per charge weight). And then work with my findings from there. It eliminates going over safe charge from that point on with your load work.

For example, my .260 Rem I found that safe book max was 46.5gr in the newest Nosler manual for the 140 RDF, but in my rifle, the max safe load is 47.0... I went up to 47.5, but the case head looked slightly smudged and the primer's edges were no longer rounded. So 47.0 will be my max, because while the primer looked a little flat, the edges were still rounded. I will work all around and in between 45-47 to find my best charge weight for that bullet at that seating depth.

 

[6.5SH]

The danger on Grendel though is by the time you see a classic sign of pressure you are already way past what is safe. I do agree most reloading manuals seem to be written by lawyers at times. But Grendel is a different animal and needs to be approached that way IMO.
CFE is a great powder and can get awesome velocity, but it does not like heat.

 

[FuhQ]

The danger on Grendel though is by the time you see a classic sign of pressure you are already way past what is safe. I do agree most reloading manuals seem to be written by lawyers at times. But Grendel is a different animal and needs to be approached that way IMO.
CFE is a great powder and can get awesome velocity, but it does not like heat.

I checked my primers and the edges were still VERY rounded. There was no excess pressure signs more than factory Hornady ammo on the cases. Also, I didn't notice any extra thump or aggressiveness in the buffer or cycling... But I'll keep a watch on it. Thanks. I built the gun almost 10 years ago, but always shot factory Hornady because it was cheap and plentiful, shot around 1.5 MOA, and I never really needed to reload for it, even though I have had all the components for years. I've been reloading and doing load work forever, but never with the AR's because I always had an "in" for cheap bulk ammo with 5.56 & .300 BLK subs, and like I said, 6.5G was everywhere anytime for between $16-$20 a box, so I really only reloaded all these years for my bolt-action precision, hunting, and LR rifles.

I haven't experimented with CFE in the Grendel much, and I did notice that as soon as that barrel/chamber started warming up, the groups seemed to open noticeably. I guess I will have to test it in between shot strings with my other rifles.

 

[longrange454]

The danger on Grendel though is by the time you see a classic sign of pressure you are already way past what is safe. I do agree most reloading manuals seem to be written by lawyers at times. But Grendel is a different animal and needs to be approached that way IMO.
CFE is a great powder and can get awesome velocity, but it does not like heat.

When working up loads with the Grendel a Chrono is a must. Especially with IMR 8208

 

[FuhQ]

Yeah, I definitely plan on bringing the MSV2 along next trip. I just got in a hurry and forgot it this last trip.

 

[RubenG]

31.4 CFE with almost every 123 will get you 2525-2550 in a 20” barrel. My Satern and Bartlein say so, haven’t chrono’d Wilson Combat yet, but betting so.

Ive got this exact setup, what kinda groupings are you getting?

 

[RubenG]

31.4 CFE with almost every 123 will get you 2525-2550 in a 20” barrel. My Satern and Bartlein say so, haven’t chrono’d Wilson Combat yet, but betting so.

oops

 

[bobke]

Have largely switched over to AR Comp for my 120-123gr range. Depending on barrel length and bullets, 27.2-27.4 with CCI 41s will get near same velocity and accuracy, with a bit more temp stability. Do use CFE with 129 ABLRs with good results, and have some Lever on deck to work with same. Really like the Wilson for hunting and use 27.4 ARC with 120 Nosler BTs for that purpose.

 

[Snuby642]

31.4g of cfe223?
Not going in a magazine is it?

 

[bobke]

When I ‘was’ using CFE, I had gone beyond 31.4, but felt better going back to 31.2, without much loss but less powder compression and having to hard seat bullets to keep them from pushing seating depth out/long. CFE has a place if careful to monitor temp swings and velocity through seasons, both of which could theoretically kick you out of a node. AR Comp just seems to be ideally suited to Grendel in most regards, just won’t be the velocity king CFE often is. Easier on brass, as well. My experience with a variety of Grendel’s-yours may vary.

 

[FuhQ]

31.4g of cfe223?
Not going in a magazine is it?

Mine are seated mag length...

 

[waveslayer]

I'm running a load at 31.2 of CFE with 123 amax

 

[jambau]

For what it's worth I'm also running 27.2gr of AR Comp with the 120's (SMK's). I've found this to be a fairly stable powder within the normal temp swings here in PA.

 

[Joel Danielson]

Getting ready to order a Forster FL sizing die for a gas gun that is being built and need some help on measurements of the neck on a loaded round. I am not turning necks and will be using Starline brass to begin with. I plan on having the die honed by Forster before it is shipped, therefore the need for the measurement.
Thanks for the info...

 

[FuhQ]

Getting ready to order a Forster FL sizing die for a gas gun that is being built and need some help on measurements of the neck on a loaded round. I am not turning necks and will be using Starline brass to begin with. I plan on having the die honed by Forster before it is shipped, therefore the need for the measurement.
Thanks for the info...

I use the RCBS #16407 dies. They're for .264 LBC (same as the 6.5 Grendel) and they have been working perfectly for many years. If you are wanting something other than RCBS, then I'd look into Redding 39478 dies.