6.5CM vs 270 WIN vs 308 Best all around hunting/entry long range rifle?

[glockguy56]

Looking to get my first bolt action rifle this winter to do some elk hunting (400 yards max) as well as some longer ish range shooting (out to 500-600 yards). At first I was pretty set on getting a 308 win because the round seems so common, easy to find and lower recoil, but after reading some articles and watching some videos it seems the 308 might not be the best choice.

I decided to look at ballistics comparing the 308, 270 and 6.5 creedmoor. I decided to compare these three because the 6.5 CM seems to be widely recommended on this forum, factory cartridges can be found for all three and I decided to throw in the 270 for the heck of it because I have shot a friends before.

Here are some of the numbers I found when comparing popular hunting loads with higher BC's capable of taking larger game like an elk.

308 win.
Bullet Style: ELD-X 178 gr
Zero Range: 200 yards
Muzzle Velocity: 2600 fps
BC: 0.552

0	-1.5	0.0	2600	2672
50	1.0	0.1	2526	2521
100	2.1	0.5	2453	2378
150	1.8	1.3	2381	2240
200	0.0	2.4	2310	2110
250	-3.5	3.9	2241	1985
300	-8.7	5.7	2173	1866
350	-15.8	8.0	2106	1753
400	-24.8	10.5	2040	1645
450	-35.8	13.5	1975	1542
500	-48.9	16.7	1911	1444
550	-64.5	20.6	1849	1351
600	-82.9	25.0	1789	1264
650	-104.1	30.0	1730	1183
700	-128.2	35.5	1673	1106
750	-155.4	41.5	1617	1033
800	-185.7	47.9	1562	964

Range (yd) Drop (in) Wind Drift (in) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft-lb)

270 win
Bullet Style: ELD-X 145gr
Zero Range: 200 yards
Muzzle Velocity: 2970 fps
BC: 0.536

0	-1.5	0.0	2970	2840
50	0.5	0.1	2887	2683
100	1.5	0.5	2806	2534
150	1.3	1.2	2726	2392
200	0.0	2.1	2647	2256
250	-2.6	3.4	2570	2126
300	-6.4	4.9	2494	2003
350	-11.6	6.7	2419	1884
400	-18.3	8.9	2346	1772
450	-26.7	11.5	2274	1665
500	-36.8	14.4	2203	1563
550	-48.6	17.7	2134	1466
600	-62.3	21.4	2065	1373
650	-78.2	25.6	1999	1286
700	-95.6	29.9	1932	1202
750	-115.7	34.8	1867	1123
800	-138.6	40.4	1805	1048

Range (yd) Drop (in) Wind Drift (in) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft-lb)

6.5 CM
Bullet Style: ELD-X 143 gr
Zero Range: 200 yards
Muzzle Velocity: 2700 fps
BC: 0.625

0	-1.5	0.0	2700	2315
50	0.8	0.1	2633	2201
100	1.9	0.5	2567	2092
150	1.6	1.1	2502	1987
200	0.0	2.0	2438	1886
250	-3.1	3.1	2374	1790
300	-7.7	4.7	2312	1697
350	-14.1	6.5	2251	1608
400	-22.1	8.7	2190	1523
450	-31.9	11.2	2131	1442
500	-43.6	13.9	2072	1363
550	-57.2	17.0	2014	1288
600	-73.0	20.4	1957	1216
650	-90.9	24.2	1901	1148
700	-111.4	28.5	1846	1082
750	-134.7	33.3	1793	1021
800	-160.8	38.6	1741	962

Range (yd) Drop (in) Wind Drift (in) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft-lb)

When comparing the ballistics I decided to use 1800 fps and 1200 ft-lb as a threshold for being able to take down an elk, not saying I would attempt these shots but just to compare. The 270 seems to be a leader in most categories including velocity, energy and drop out to longer distances. The 6.5 CM handles the wind just slightly better than the 270.

I am pretty certain I wont end up with a 308 but still torn as to which caliber to choose. Should I consider barrel life? Curious what all of your thoughts are on these ballistics and if there are any other cartridges I should take a look at for my use.

 

[steve123]

Part of the reason 6.5 CM has become so popular is it's light recoil. Put a brake on it and recoil is very soft.

I had forgot, I sighted in a friends unbraked lightweight 270 hunting rifle, ouch! Then comparing that to my heavy and braked 6.5 Saum, it's two different worlds, one with pain and the other like a 223!

No don't consider barrel life, just enjoy.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

270 isn't really a good option for long range target shooting. There isn't any factory match ammo or rifles set up for it. Also, you can kill an elk just fine with a 308 or 6.5cm. Shot placement is the important thing.

Barrel life on a 308 is about 10,000 rounds while 6.5cm is about 3,000. 6.5cm is flatter shooting and ammo cost about the same.

i recommend a 6.5cm especially if you're not going to shoot an elk past 400yds.

 

[IanHusaberg]

I would consider all these rounds to be 500 yard max hunting cartridges. At 600y your really pushing your luck if shot placement isn't perfect. All of them can kill animals. If I had to include elk/bear, it would be 308 <500yards(size hole it leaves). 6.5/270, All other animals <800 yards. Elk are tuff as nails!

When I hear people talk about Ft/lbs. on elk it's in the 1400-1500 range. Safe area. JMHO

 

[BurnOut]

I'd go with 6.5CM and call it a day. The only drawback to it vs. the others is availability at Joe Bob's ammo shop... and that's getting better every day; it's well on its way to becoming a mainstream chambering, IMO.

 

[patriot07]

The 308 or 6.5 would be my choice. 270 offers minimal ballistic improvement for an enormous recoil increase.

6.5 is going to fight the wind better. 308 will deliver better energy at short range.

 

[sandwarrior]

If shooting elk and once in a while going out to 1k, ANY of the three will do you just fine.

Where they separate is distance beyond 1k.

The 6.5 Creed has easily the best bullet pushed to a decent velocity. I don't push mine hard at all to get 2700 fps. you can't find these at every Mom & Pop store. They have been stocked pretty well at bigger box stores. Dedicated outdoor sporting good stores will have them too...usually.

The .308 has a slew of up and coming "higher" BC than what we used to get. Unless a panic buy is on, you can get good ammo for this. You do have to pick your bullet for long distance though. Most all the hunting class bullets will work for hunting.

The dark horse here is the .270. Because of it's bullet diameter, it tends to have naturally high BC's. At least for most bullets that haven't been optimized for long range. I used to shoot with a guy at Mica, south of Spokane Valley, who shot a .270 out to 1k very consistently. It's biggest drawback is you don't have rifles and bullets that can get you to extreme ranges. One notch down, 6.5mm and one notch up, 7mm, have all the high BC bullets. It's like the .270 intentionally got left out of the long range game. But, you can get good bullets and shoot to 1k. The .270 was one of two cartridges that never sold out during the panic of the Obama elections.

In all three cases, you'll optimize your own chances if you reload. You can make your own premium bullets for half the cost of average cartridges off the shelf. There's good bullets for all three.

With the last statement, don't rule out the .30-06. You can put the same optimal bullets from the .308 in the .30-06 and get a little more oomph.

One thing to look out for too, if you go with a .308 or 30-06 make sure you get a 1-10" twist. That will help. Most 6.5 Creed are 1-8" something so tight enough for long bullets. The .270 is a 1-10" standard. It would be rare to find one not in that twist.

 

[Diesel64]

I don't have a 6.5cr but they so sound nice

That said, I do have a 308 and the one thing I like about the 308 is the wide range of bullet weights and round options.

While I still have to take this round out to distance, check out the numbers of this .308 HSM 210gr Berger VLD

	BC Bullet Weight Muzzle Velocity Zero Range Sight Height LOS Angle 0.320 G7 210gr 2508 200 1.8 in 0° Altitude Pressure Temp RH Wind Velocity Wind Angle 0.0 29.92 Hg. 59.0 °F 78% 10.0 90 Zero Altitude Zero Pressure Zero Temp Zero RH Max PBR Zero 0.0 29.92 Hg. 59.0 °F 78% 269 Miller Stability 1.40 [h=1]Bullet Trajectory[/h] Range (yards) Drop (in) Drop (mrad) Wind. (in) Wind. (mrad) Veloc. (fps) Energy (ft-lbs) Time (sec) 0 ↓ -1.81 0.00 0.00 0.00 2508 2933 0.00 50 0.92 0.51 -0.52 -0.29 2439 2773 0.06 100 2.19 0.61 -0.69 -0.19 2371 2621 0.12 150 1.91 0.35 -0.53 -0.10 2304 2475 0.19 200 ⊕ -0.00 -0.00 0.00 0.00 2238 2336 0.25 250 -3.65 -0.41 0.90 0.10 2174 2203 0.32 264 ↑ -5.09 -0.53 1.25 0.13 2156 2165 0.34 300 -9.13 -0.85 2.20 0.20 2110 2077 0.39 350 -16.57 -1.31 3.90 0.31 2048 1956 0.46 400 -26.08 -1.81 6.03 0.42 1987 1840 0.54 450 -37.79 -2.33 8.60 0.53 1926 1730 0.61 500 -51.84 -2.88 11.65 0.65 1867 1625 0.69 550 -68.39 -3.45 15.18 0.77 1808 1524 0.78 600 -87.59 -4.05 19.24 0.89 1750 1429 0.86 650 -109.63 -4.68 23.84 1.02 1693 1337 0.95 700 -134.71 -5.35 29.02 1.15 1637 1250 1.04 750 -163.02 -6.04 34.81 1.29 1582 1167 1.13 800 -194.81 -6.76 41.25 1.43 1527 1088 1.23

 

[MarkLeupold]

If I had to go back and choose a caliber to start with again, knowing what I know now, it wouldn't be a .308. Not knocking the .308, because I love the cartridge and it's what I've got for the moment, so I'll run it, but 6.5mm all the way. Get the Creedmoor, don't look back.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[ZeroMOA]

6.5 creedmoor for sure, I have a 308 now and will probably rebarrel at some point to get less recoil, drop, wind

 

[glockguy56]

The 308 or 6.5 would be my choice. 270 offers minimal ballistic improvement for an enormous recoil increase.

6.5 is going to fight the wind better. 308 will deliver better energy at short range.

Took my friends 270 out this weekend to around 300 yards and the next day my shoulder was really feeling it.. lol. After reading peoples thoughts on the different calibers I think I will end up going with the 6.5CM. I am going to try and see if I can rent one at a local range to see how the recoil feels.

 

[RedRooster]

Not to throw you for a loop but I would also look at the 7mm-08.

Short action
high bc bullets
managable recoil
factory ammo widely avail if you don’t roll your own

 

[stello1001]

I don't know why so many people complain a lot about the kick of a .270. I have been shooting it for hunting since I was a kid on lightweight hunting rifles. Heck, I even got to shoot with a 300 rem ultra mag and a 7mm rem mag long long ago in Mexico when I used to go hunting there with my father and grandfather. I never thought the .270 was a really hard kicker until recently when I started looking into buying a rifle to practice long range shooting and many experienced shooters would tell me that the .270 has a lot of recoil. I do not think the .270 will be a bad option, especially given the numbers you found. Since you will be shooting out to about 600 yards max, you will not be hindered by it. However, I do agree that reloading and bullet selection is much better if you go with a 6.5CM or a .308. I don't think I would buy a .270 again though, simply because like I said, you have better selection with .30 cal bullets or 6.5mm bullets. I now have a 6.5 creedmoor aside from .270 though, if that says anything. Good luck on your choice.

 

[steve123]

270 with 150's, or 308 with 185's, It basically comes down to the weight of the rifle, all up with scope ,etc, a 7-8 lb rifle without a brake isn't pleasant to shoot while practicing, certainly fine for 1-2 shots at game with a coat on.

Well, to avoid pain, I use a PAST recoil shield when shooting the old military rifles that have steel butt plates, lol, otherwise I wouldn't shoot them much.

Add 2-3 pounds to the top most scenario and felt recoil starts to lesson. Add a brake now and what was painful in the above scenario has become a reasonably soft recoiling rifle.

I almost bought Sako TRGS in 338L, can you imagine what that would have felt like.

I have this silly friend that had to have a 416 Rigby, I took one shot and gave it back to him. He's selling it and I doubt he's got 2 boxes of ammo through it.

 

[orenp]

Since someone suggested a 7mm-08, I'd like to recommend .284 Winchester. Great ballistics, good bullet selection, and decent recoil, particularly if you've got a good brake. I have a 6.5 CM and a .284. I like both but if I were going to hunt elk it would be no question - .284.

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[jbailey]

Since someone suggested a 7mm-08, I'd like to recommend .284 Winchester. Great ballistics, good bullet selection, and decent recoil, particularly if you've got a good brake. I have a 6.5 CM and a .284. I like both but if I were going to hunt elk it would be no question - .284.

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+1. 284 great all around choice. Best on a long action however, where you can load the long 7mm's to full potential and still load from mag. That would be my choice if I could have just one rifle to do it all.

 

[patriot07]

I don't know why so many people complain a lot about the kick of a .270. I have been shooting it for hunting since I was a kid on lightweight hunting rifles. Heck, I even got to shoot with a 300 rem ultra mag and a 7mm rem mag long long ago in Mexico when I used to go hunting there with my father and grandfather. I never thought the .270 was a really hard kicker until recently when I started looking into buying a rifle to practice long range shooting and many experienced shooters would tell me that the .270 has a lot of recoil. I do not think the .270 will be a bad option, especially given the numbers you found. Since you will be shooting out to about 600 yards max, you will not be hindered by it. However, I do agree that reloading and bullet selection is much better if you go with a 6.5CM or a .308. I don't think I would buy a .270 again though, simply because like I said, you have better selection with .30 cal bullets or 6.5mm bullets. I now have a 6.5 creedmoor aside from .270 though, if that says anything. Good luck on your choice.

When you're trying to see misses at distance, recoil matters. Hunting, it doesn't matter as much. Usage dictates requirements.

 

[Sportsman]

For elk, I would still go with .308 over 6.5 CM because of heavier bullet selection. Are you disciplined enough to only take the broadside shot that doesn't have to punch through the shoulder at a quartering angle? I have a 6.5 CM and love it. Can't wait to take it whitetail hunting in a couple weeks and I'm sure it would be fine for elk on perfect shots but I don't want to be on margins. You say 400 yards max and I agree. If you are shooting farther than that for elk, you should bump up to from the cartridges listed but recoil will come with the extra umph.

 

[TorF]

I just don't get it. I think live animals deserve to be killed as properly and painless as possible. Longrange vld huntingmatch bullets do fail more than premium hunting bullets. Used with Swift A-frame bullets the 270 outperforms the 308 and 6.5cm. A 150gr A-Frame@3000fps from a 24" 270win is at another level than the other two and this bullet is utterly failsafe on game.

Btw, if this is your first bolt action rifle my advice is to keep your shots on game inside 300yds.

 

[sandwarrior]

Took my friends 270 out this weekend to around 300 yards and the next day my shoulder was really feeling it.. lol. After reading peoples thoughts on the different calibers I think I will end up going with the 6.5CM. I am going to try and see if I can rent one at a local range to see how the recoil feels.

Good choice, in the long run it will do everything you want, and it's the only one that will reach farther if you go there.

 

[Maestro]

I currently have a .270 that I've taken some Whitetail with. I'm thinking about switching to a 6.5 Creedmoor via a Tikka CTR. The only issue I have is, flat out, killing power. Not saying the 6.5 CM can't handle Whitetail, because it absolutely can. I am saying though that the .270 (At least what I shoot) hits with 2900-3000 FPE, carries over 2000 FPE out to 300 yards, and carries enough to kill an Elk further than you'd want to shoot. The 6.5 CM doesn't have anywhere close when it comes to energy. It starts with 900 less FPE (I'm calculating off of a factory Hornaday ELD X 143), only carries over 2000 FPE to 130 yards, and carries Elk killing power just about to 400. Now I get the 6.5 CM is super accurate and you don't need 2000 FPE for Whitetail and occasional elk, and has quality ammo options and it's easy to shoot so owners usually have a lot of practice with it, but like I said, if I was buying it for Elk/Whitetail hunting only, I'd maybe consider a caliber with slightly more oomph than a 6.5 CM. Now the .308 carries negligibly more energy than a 6.5 CM (200 or so) and quite a bit less than a good 270 load, plus it has worse trajectory and wind performance. Its only advantages in my book are ammo availability which again doesn't really bother me as I can get quality 270 right next to 308 at any outdoor store or even Walmart. All in all, the 270 actually could be a great medium-long range hunting round; great BCs, good energy, shoots pretty flat, and has less recoil than most .300s. It just got left out for whatever reason, and because of that, it's pretty rare to see a long range hunting rifle or target shooter rocking a .277 caliber. From my amateur view, I think the .270 technically has better properties in every way than a .308 except what, barrel life? (If we're not talking ammo these days since it became a precision and military caliber).

All that said, the 6.5 CM has and is making a formidable standing in both target and hunting, I'm probably going to join the 6.5 CM band wagon soon myself. If you go with a 6.5 CM you'll have no regrets.

 

[sandwarrior]

I currently have a .270 that I've taken some Whitetail with. I'm thinking about switching to a 6.5 Creedmoor via a Tikka CTR. The only issue I have is, flat out, killing power. Not saying the 6.5 CM can't handle Whitetail, because it absolutely can. I am saying though that the .270 (At least what I shoot) hits with 2900-3000 FPE, carries over 2000 FPE out to 300 yards, and carries enough to kill an Elk further than you'd want to shoot. The 6.5 CM doesn't have anywhere close when it comes to energy. It starts with 900 less FPE (I'm calculating off of a factory Hornaday ELD X 143), only carries over 2000 FPE to 130 yards, and carries Elk killing power just about to 400. Now I get the 6.5 CM is super accurate and you don't need 2000 FPE for Whitetail and occasional elk, and has quality ammo options and it's easy to shoot so owners usually have a lot of practice with it, but like I said, if I was buying it for Elk/Whitetail hunting only, I'd maybe consider a caliber with slightly more oomph than a 6.5 CM. Now the .308 carries negligibly more energy than a 6.5 CM (200 or so) and quite a bit less than a good 270 load, plus it has worse trajectory and wind performance. Its only advantages in my book are ammo availability which again doesn't really bother me as I can get quality 270 right next to 308 at any outdoor store or even Walmart. All in all, the 270 actually could be a great medium-long range hunting round; great BCs, good energy, shoots pretty flat, and has less recoil than most .300s. It just got left out for whatever reason, and because of that, it's pretty rare to see a long range hunting rifle or target shooter rocking a .277 caliber. From my amateur view, I think the .270 technically has better properties in every way than a .308 except what, barrel life? (If we're not talking ammo these days since it became a precision and military caliber).

All that said, the 6.5 CM has and is making a formidable standing in both target and hunting, I'm probably going to join the 6.5 CM band wagon soon myself. If you go with a 6.5 CM you'll have no regrets.

I understand peoples reticence to go with a lighter cartridge. A lot of it though is a. How well the bullet flies and b. Terminal performance of the bullet. In the 6.5 CM you get factory loaded ammo that has both

here's a video another member provided me showing the attributes of the 6.5 Creed:

https://youtu.be/IOo6gprtKeA?t=110

Take note of who the shooter is. That is fact enough that this is a viable round or he would not have staked his reputation out on youtube with it.

 

[Maestro]

I understand peoples reticence to go with a lighter cartridge. A lot of it though is a. How well the bullet flies and b. Terminal performance of the bullet. In the 6.5 CM you get factory loaded ammo that has both

here's a video another member provided me showing the attributes of the 6.5 Creed:

https://youtu.be/IOo6gprtKeA?t=110

Take note of who the shooter is. That is fact enough that this is a viable round or he would not have staked his reputation out on youtube with it.

I agree, I have no doubt the 6.5 CM may be the next "30 30" for deer, obviously in a different galaxy of performance but I mean by popularity.

 

[sandwarrior]

It's getting more and more popular among hunters for the very reason in the video. It has plenty of power to take an elk at 600 yds.

 

[308220]

If youre just going to elk hunt and occassionally target shoot, a 308 will serve you well. And last you a lifetime. No fear of ever having to rebarrel. Shoot shoot shoot. A boatload of factory ammo options. And plenty of killing power at hunting ranges (to 600 yards) for anything in North America with modern bullets. Except Grizzly. Of course if you wanted to be GI Sniper and shoot at game really, really, really far, you may want a 7mm.

A lot of guys upload video of them shooting game at extreme ranges, but they only show the ones they hit well enough to brag about. The ones they hit in its gut, ass and legs, they just delete those.

Good luck. Have fun.

 

[Upstate43]

I wouldn't base the elk-killing capability on the bullet's velocity. I would base it on the bullet's energy and momentum (which obviously factors in velocity); there are other aspects of bullet construction to consider as well. The reality is that at 700 yards and beyond, any one of those cartridges is going to be less than ideal for taking bigger animals. Also, I think people around here are far too cavalier about taking animals at those distances. A 700 yard shot, first round effective hit, in field conditions is not an easy shot, regardless of what people may claim on youtube and the forums.

For within 700 yards, any one of those 3 cartridges would be suitable for medium-sized game. At closer distances, they could possibly work for bigger game (moose, bear), though I'd be more inclined to stick with the .308 for such duties. Ultimately, your choice of cartridge will be dependent upon what type of game you want to shoot. If all you're focused on are deer, any of the 3 you listed will work fine with good shot placement and reasonable distances. If you want to focus on the heavier end of the big game spectrum, get a .308 or look at a bigger cartridge (.30-06, .300 WM, ect.). If you want a cartridge that can realistically take all the North American big game but still be practical for a weekend deer hunt, I'd say bypass the 3 options and get a .30-06. There are pro's and con's you have to weigh with each rifle cartridge. Don't fall victim to the hype. Yes, 6.5 CM is a great cartridge with good advantages in recoil reduction and ballistics, there is no denying that. But it has its limitations for hunting applications. Also, there have been improvements to the .308 cartridge, and for realistic hunting ranges it still has a solid reputation. You definitely should give it some consideration.

The all-in-one rifle sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work so well in practice. The ideal target rifle is going to be too heavy and unwieldy for anything other than sedentary stand hunting. Your hunting rifle is also going to be exposed to a lot more abuse. Get your target rifle setup, and then get a separate, more cost-effective option for hunting.

 

[chevytruck_83]

5 or 600 yards is well within the limits of a good 308. Hits with my Sako TRG 22 in 308 are easy out to 750. Beyond that you really need good ammo and perfect placement. I also have a 6.5 creedmoor. If I’m shooting beyond 750 then I use it. Both the 308 and 6.5 creedmoor have accurate reasonably priced ammo. It’s really up to if 600 yards will be your max. If it is I say use the 308 for added stopping power.

 

[JeffLebowski]

If youre just going to elk hunt and occassionally target shoot, a 308 will serve you well. And last you a lifetime. No fear of ever having to rebarrel. Shoot shoot shoot. A boatload of factory ammo options. And plenty of killing power at hunting ranges (to 600 yards) for anything in North America with modern bullets. Except Grizzly. Of course if you wanted to be GI Sniper and shoot at game really, really, really far, you may want a 7mm.

A lot of guys upload video of them shooting game at extreme ranges, but they only show the ones they hit well enough to brag about. The ones they hit in its gut, ass and legs, they just delete those.

Good luck. Have fun.

How do you know what “they” delete?

 

[Dogsniper]

I like a 300 WinMag for hunting long range short range doesn't matter I'm running a 208 grain Amax at 3000 ft./s

 

[TorF]

In Scandinavia we have 120 years experience with the 6,5x55, the ballistic twin of the 6.5cm for hunting. This is a light to medium game round. As a round for Scandinavian moose it is important to know that 90% of the shots are taken within 100m and almost none past 200 with proper bullets designed for this specific ballistic window. It is not recomended to use 6.5 on boar and in some parts of continental Europe land owners do not allow 6.5 due to the amount of wounded animals that has to be tracked down compared to heavier hitters.

Remember this, a bullet from a 6.5cm that is capable to expand in game at 700yds will often splinter into fragments at short range if it hits heavy bones. It will then not enter the boiler room on a large animal for a clean kill, only create a nasty wound and an animal capable of fleeing long distances before succombing to loss of blood.

Afterthought; who would choose to hunt Elk with a Winchester 94 in 25-35Win inside 100yds?

 

[shooter65]

280

 

[sandwarrior]

In Scandinavia we have 120 years experience with the 6,5x55, the ballistic twin of the 6.5cm for hunting. This is a light to medium game round. As a round for Scandinavian moose it is important to know that 90% of the shots are taken within 100m and almost none past 200 with proper bullets designed for this specific ballistic window. It is not recomended to use 6.5 on boar and in some parts of continental Europe land owners do not allow 6.5 due to the amount of wounded animals that has to be tracked down compared to heavier hitters.

Remember this, a bullet from a 6.5cm that is capable to expand in game at 700yds will often splinter into fragments at short range if it hits heavy bones. It will then not enter the boiler room on a large animal for a clean kill, only create a nasty wound and an animal capable of fleeing long distances before succombing to loss of blood.

Afterthought; who would choose to hunt Elk with a Winchester 94 in 25-35Win inside 100yds?

Like the 6.5 Swede, it's been done for a lot of years here. So were the .30-30 and .32 WCF Not saying it was always the best choice, it's what was done for years.

WWI was the big changing point for the .30-06. Hunters wanted a round that powerful to go out and hunt with. The mental security of extra energy, as long as you can shoot it correctly was a big issue. At that time, though the .300 Savage was hitting it's stride. With ballistics that nearly matched the military loading of the .30-06 and much less recoil, it was quite popular. Until it spawned the .308.

Bullet construction, and correct choice for which use, is always something to deal with. For years here, people hunted with standard bullets. The advent of better hunting bullets didn't necessarily bring hunters to using them. A lot of hunters still go with what is cheapest. Still, with a better bullet, it doesn't mean you can take any shot at any angle and be successful. Bullet placement is paramount. Then construction of the bullet. It doesn't matter what diameter the bullet is as long as it gets there with enough energy. The point of the video was that at 605 yds. the 6.5 of any medium bodied cartridge has enough energy. Not that you can just go out and shoot an elk at 600+ yds. It's not something I would do or recommend. Too many variables other than the rifle/cartridge at play there.

As far as other rounds, there are a bunch out there that will work. I like 7mm myself, but the OP asked about these three.

 

[wapiti16b]

For an all around rifle caliber I'd choose something in 7mm , 280AI would be my first choice , 280 , 284WIN ,( 7-08 , 7mm SAW for short action ) or even a magnum !

 

[308220]

How do you know what “they” delete?

Because common sense tells me, not every long range shot ends in a perfect, clean kill. And what are the odds of them only having the camera rolling on the perfect shots? Or, are they all perfect marksmen shooting off a fence post and sticks? Just wondering.

A lot of bad shots at long range. Whether you want to believe it or not.

 

[davsco]

never hunted elk, but from lotsa reading, the rule of thumb was a ton (2000ft-lbs) of energy AT the animal. but of course shot placement and bullet composition are key. if elk is on your menu why not just go 300winmag? you can brake it and get a heavier gun to lower felt recoil and there are downloaded options. but a ton of ammo options out there for short and long range, both hunting and target shooting.

 

[Upstate43]

Randy Newberg had a decent youtube video on selecting an elk-hunting cartridge. He happens to use .308, but he made a point of emphasizing that a hunter should use a cartridge that he/she is capable of shooting accurately.

He emphasized that point because evidently a lot of western hunters (armchair or otherwise) were giving him grief for only using a .308 instead of a "heavy-hitter" like .300 WM. I think his points are valid though: use something that you're capable of shooting accurately; use the right type of ammo; practice shooting in realistic field conditions. 6.5 CM, and similar cartridges, are probably on the light-end of the spectrum of cartridges that are capable of elk killing. They'll likely work, as long as the shot placement is good and the shooting distances are reasonable. I do think the 6.5 CM's ballistics exceed its realistic killing abilities at longer distances...meaning that it can likely hit elk-sized targets at 700 yards and beyond, but its lethality at those distances isn't well established, never mind that very few hunters are experienced enough to take such shots.

 

[308220]

Yeah, but has Randy won The Hide Cup?!? Just kidding.

Many people I talk to about hunting, laugh at the idea of a 308 for elk as well. For some reason it just doesnt kill anymore? And lost a lot of accuracy in the past 10 years. It seems more guys are willing to take their 6mm/6.5 rifle over a 308 because of "shot placement". As if a 308 isnt capable of hitting the broadside of a barn at 50 yards now for some reason. And the 6mm/6.5 never miss. Just point and shoot.

Like the guy said, many cartridges/calibers are capable. 243, 25-06, 6.5 CM, 270, 308 (crazy huh?!). Just shoot at responsible ranges and you wont have any problems. This guy for example has shot hundreds of elk, and he said the number of them taken at 400+ yards was very very small. So the guys that shoot at live animals 800+ yards are being lazy and irresponsible. Yes, I said it. I dont care how well you can hit steel at the range. I can hit steel at range too. And have never felt the need to shoot at any animal over 500 yards. I just feel I owe it to the animal to get the best possible shot I can. I have personally closed 300 yards on a coyote just by casually walking the woodline in a field to get a better shot. Theyre 800 yards away! They see you as zero threat to them. Get closer. Deer are the same way. Ive never seen a deer run away from a hunter 800 yards away. At 800 yards they dont give a shit. 500 yards theyre aware. 300 yards theyre looking at you. 100 yards theyre gone. Nothing I hate more than GI Sniper blowing legs off animals at long range.

 

[steve123]

Ha, you're so snarky.

I watched Randy's video and agree with most of his concepts, mostly the part of picking a cartridge that someone will practice with. The part about the marginality of a shot I do question, pertaining to edge of vitals hits, reality is that once in awhile the bullet won't go exactly where it was supposed to. Using a more powerful round can make a difference if the shot is at a comfortable distance or if it is farther out because of its retained energy, wound channel, and penetration, especially if bone is hit. Also the elephant in the room is wind drift, if I know the cartridge I use blows a foot less in X wind at Y distance than another cartridge, then I'm more comfortable with making that shot. Or filling a tag at 500 something yards because a shot wasn't happening at 300 something yards.

There's something I hate more, that's the typical stereotype hunter with his 30-30 who has trouble hitting a 10" paper plate at 50Y and wounds a couple animals inside 150Y before he finally gets lucky. Irresponsibility at its peak. But everyone is at a different level. In contrast, take a top PRS shooter at 600Y on an elk, in reasonable winds, with a 28 Nosler or similar, using well designed hunting bullets, and that elk is headed to the freezer with a clean shot to the vitals.

 

[TorF]

If someone want to kill an animal at a really long range, let's say from 1000m to 3000m, there's no problem doing that with a civilian customized armed drone. The risk of wounding an animal with a drone at these ranges at reduced by 99% compared to a rifle.100% hits within 4" at 3000m is child's play. My 12 year son can do it all the time. So now long range hunting is down to ethics. .

 

[JeffLebowski]

Because common sense tells me, not every long range shot ends in a perfect, clean kill. And what are the odds of them only having the camera rolling on the perfect shots? Or, are they all perfect marksmen shooting off a fence post and sticks? Just wondering.

A lot of bad shots at long range. Whether you want to believe it or not.

Ah, so you’’re hypothesizing sans actual data. Do you know what that means?

 

[MachoKing]

There are a lot of bad shots at short range too. Here's the nice thing about long range, usually the animal is calm and so are you. Now, caveat, if you don't practice at long range distances, don't even think about shooting at an animal at those ranges. I have a friend who has killed out to 800 yards with a 6.5x47 Lapua, if you put the bullet in the center of the shoulder, the animal is going to drop. Another caveat, I shoot a 7mm Rem Mag, not because it has extra energy, but because for the longest time I did not have a rangefinder and it shoots a little flatter. I honestly think this is why these magnums took off so well in the US is the fact that out west, before the advent of rangefinders and dope calculators, you wanted a rifle that could shoot flat.

Now, I shot my spike bull this year at 450 yards with 162 ELD-X out of my 7 Mag doing about 3000fps at the muzzle (factory load). It takes about half a second for the bullet to get to the animal. Well...Mr. Spike Bull decided in that half second that he wanted to go uphill. My broadside shot at trigger squeeze turned into an ass shot, but luckily for me the bullet went all the way through him, south to north and dropped him, taking out the femur on the way through. Would a 6.5cm be able to do that? Honestly, I don't know. But I am not going to be one of those guys that will sit here and tell you that a magnum makes up for bad shots, because it just doesn't. I have in my hunting career made a couple bad shots on game with a magnum and the result was the same as if you were shooting a 223. The elk went forever, and eventually I lost the blood trail. Bullet placement is the biggest factor, no matter what anyone tells you.

The BEAUTIFUL thing about a rifle like the 6.5cm is that it is relatively inexpensive to shoot and has very light recoil so it is more of a joy to practice with. I have a muzzle brake on my 7 Mag to facilitate this, but out in the woods it is a burden because I have to jam my earplugs in before I take a shot or I can't hear anything for 4-5 minutes and risk permanent hearing loss. With a 6.5cm, you can shoot without a brake and not hurt yourself.
EDIT: I will add that you should not shoot any further than when your bullet hits 1800fps, as that is the minimum velocity for most hunting bullets to function as designed. Past that, you're risking the bullet not expanding at all.

 

[308220]

Ah, so you’’re hypothesizing sans actual data. Do you know what that means?

Youre awfully touchy about the subject of videos getting deleted when it results in a bad shot...


Hitting close to home?

 

[308220]

Ha, you're so snarky.

I watched Randy's video and agree with most of his concepts, mostly the part of picking a cartridge that someone will practice with. The part about the marginality of a shot I do question, pertaining to edge of vitals hits, reality is that once in awhile the bullet won't go exactly where it was supposed to. Using a more powerful round can make a difference if the shot is at a comfortable distance or if it is farther out because of its retained energy, wound channel, and penetration, especially if bone is hit. Also the elephant in the room is wind drift, if I know the cartridge I use blows a foot less in X wind at Y distance than another cartridge, then I'm more comfortable with making that shot. Or filling a tag at 500 something yards because a shot wasn't happening at 300 something yards.

There's something I hate more, that's the typical stereotype hunter with his 30-30 who has trouble hitting a 10" paper plate at 50Y and wounds a couple animals inside 150Y before he finally gets lucky. Irresponsibility at its peak. But everyone is at a different level. In contrast, take a top PRS shooter at 600Y on an elk, in reasonable winds, with a 28 Nosler or similar, using well designed hunting bullets, and that elk is headed to the freezer with a clean shot to the vitals.

Thanks. Its one of my best qualities.


To touch on the long distance kill a bit further...I forgot to mention minimal impact velocity required for the bullet to perform as designed. I believe most hunting bullets are around the 1800fps range? As the poster above mentioned. Sure, YMMV depending on what cartridge youre shooting and where. But 1800fps minimum rules out a lot of cartridges for anything past 700 ethically.

There is no difference between the hunter with a 30-30 shooting deer in the ass and guts at 50yd, than the hunter with a PRS rifle shooting deer at 800-1k yards in the ass and guts. With minimal bullet performance. Both need theyre rifle taken from them.

 

[MachoKing]

Thanks. Its one of my best qualities.


To touch on the long distance kill a bit further...I forgot to mention minimal impact velocity required for the bullet to perform as designed. I believe most hunting bullets are around the 1800fps range? As the poster above mentioned. Sure, YMMV depending on what cartridge youre shooting and where. But 1800fps minimum rules out a lot of cartridges for anything past 700 ethically.

There is no difference between the hunter with a 30-30 shooting deer in the ass and guts at 50yd, than the hunter with a PRS rifle shooting deer at 800-1k yards in the ass and guts. With minimal bullet performance. Both need theyre rifle taken from them.

Altitude makes a huge difference on how far your bullet will go before it hits that 1800fps threshold as well.

 

[MosesTheTank]

6.5 CM. Below is an excellent article that is worth carefully reading.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/0...tridge-matter/

There are plenty of great, high BC, bullets for 308. My woods rifle is a 308 that shoots one ragged hole with 178 Amax's. The 270 now has some pretty good high BC choices too. But they do not beat the 6.5. Although, the 30 cal I have that can beat my match rifle way out there (say, 1100+) is a 300 Win Mag with 210 VLDs, I do not think you want to enter a match with such a beast. The below antelope was taken at only 360, but the wind was quickly moving between 12 and 20+. It was either I take it with a 6.5 (my beloved Accurate Ordnance, do all, match rifle) or my son poke at it with his 308. Pure math dictated the 6.5. Bang flop.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/i.imgur.com\/wZAy3yL.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 

[jakelly]

OP you’re comparing a 60 grain 270 case to 40 grain cases in the 308 and 6.5. Compare 60 grain 6.5, 7, and 308 cases and you’ll see why the 270 gets no LR love. For your intended purposes all will work fine. This is the minutia of cartridge selection everyone debates about online. At the end of the day the there are a ton of options that will work fine, when the conversation turns to recommending a best option the details can get pretty small.

A couple other thoughts:
“Emergency Ammo” is waay overrated. I’m one of the few people I know who have done it, and it blows.

Hunt in eastern Montana and you’ll find out that laziness isn’t the only reason for 5 and 600 yard shots on game.

Available accurate ammo is the factor I would consider most important in this decision if I didn’t handload.

When I was faced with very similar desires I chose to start handloading.

 

[jakelly]

Boy 308220, you must loathe bow hunters.

 

[308220]

Altitude makes a huge difference on how far your bullet will go before it hits that 1800fps threshold as well.

Agree. Thats why I said it depends on the cartridge youre shooting and where.

 

[308220]

Boy 308220, you must loathe bow hunters.

Not really. I bow hunt. You cant compare a broadhead to a bullet. Thats stupid logic.

 

[glockguy56]

I'm still pretty torn between 308 and 6.5. 6.5 seems to be the more accurate round but when comparing ammo prices the 308 is the better choice. I can find federal smk 168 grain for 18$ a box which seems like a hell of a deal when compared to around 24$ a box of the cheapest 6.5cm i could find. 140g hornady american gunner. The federal berger boxes are around 29$ a box.

600-700 yards is about the farthest distance I have been able to find anywhere near me where I could shoot. I don't know if investing in a 6.5 and taking the hit on accurate target ammunition would be worth it if I can never really stretch it out.