6.5PRC, Lone Peak Fuzion, KMW Sentinel, and TS Customs

[orkan]

Got a hold of a customer's new TS Customs 6.5PRC today for some preliminary load development. This new cartridge is certainly going to become a mainstay. I predict its upward rise to favor to be even faster than the 6.5CM. It is certainly the easy button for 3000fps from a 140gr. ... and folks, TS Customs has this thing on lock.

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"NVZK9iTh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/NVZK9iTh.jpg"}[/IMG2]

It's always fun working with all-the-way builds. Too many times customers go cheap and it never seems to work in their favor. This rifle sports a KMW Sentinel stock, Lone Peak Fuzion action, 26" benchmark barrel, Thunderbeast ultra 9 6.5, and a triggertech trigger.

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"IwpqEv6h.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/IwpqEv6h.jpg"}[/IMG2]

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"iuqaBQlh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/iuqaBQlh.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Above you see the 6.5PRC on the left and a 6.5 Creedmoor on the right. The PRC is setup with a 140 hybrid at .020" off the lands. You can see how that positions it in a strapless AccurateMag 300WSM mag in the image below. Certainly not an abundance of room, but this thing is very workable in a short action. The bullet isn't dangling way down in the powder column either. The BT/body junction on the bullet is just beneath the neck/shoulder junction. Just barely.
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"Z1v9OQlh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/Z1v9OQlh.jpg"}[/IMG2]

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"rqTAZb8h.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/rqTAZb8h.jpg"}[/IMG2]

The round you see above is set to an OAL of 2.940. Nice comfortable place to be. I started off at 56gr of H1000, but quickly realized there's plenty of room there. I ran up to 62gr before pressure was way harsh. This was basically the entire case and neck full of powder. At 60gr it is right on the edge of being a bit of a hot load on this 85 degree day. During most folks deer seasons, it will certainly not be a hot load. 60gr of H1000 produced 3060fps out of this 26" barrel while 59gr produced 3010fps. The case fill at 59gr was what I'd call perfect. At 60gr it gets up into the neck just a touch at times.

Accuracy and precision were both quite good. Here's 5 at 100yds, and then I killed a few more dots just for verification.
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"8XhNv0nh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/8XhNv0nh.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"hIuTLJ6h.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/hIuTLJ6h.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"g1AUXLdh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/g1AUXLdh.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"Ae6YEyXh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/Ae6YEyXh.jpg"}[/IMG2]
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"iGC0KL8h.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/iGC0KL8h.jpg"}[/IMG2]

It's always a pleasure to work with rifles from TS Customs, but those that sport components like this are just so fun. Now I need to speak with this customer about getting a Tangent Theta in place of that optic it's saddled with.

 

[jonthomps]

Great looking rifle!

 

[black5.3]

Nice looking rig indeed! What is the expected barrel life of that cartridge?

 

[Temper]

Nice looking rig indeed! What is the expected barrel life of that cartridge?

~2500 is safe to assume. About the same as 6.5 SAUM since it uses the same powders along with almost the same amounts of it and launches 140s in the 3100 range. This is Hornady's attempt to standardize a hot rodded 6.5 cartridge that works in a short action.

 

[black5.3]

Thanks for the info.

 

[KWilson]

~2500 is safe to assume. About the same as 6.5 SAUM since it uses the same powders along with almost the same amounts of it and launches 140s in the 3100 range. This is Hornady's attempt to standardize a hot rodded 6.5 cartridge that works in a short action.

How durable is the brass proving so far being reloaded?

 

[padom]

Thanks for the info. Very nice

 

[Petrov]

2500 round barrel life?
6.5-284 pushing 140 grainers at around 2950-3050 starts to go tits up around 1200 rounds.
How does this get such great barrel life?

 

[orkan]

2500 round barrel life?
6.5-284 pushing 140 grainers at around 2950-3050 starts to go tits up around 1200 rounds.
How does this get such great barrel life?

Configuration of the powder column matters. This has been discussed ad nauseam in past 6.5SAUM threads. Short/fat cases simply out perform long narrow cases of equal volume in nearly every category.

 

[Petrov]

Double the barrel life and same velocity sounds pretty neat. Didnt know there was so much performance to gain. 20 VarTarg fanboy myself so I can appreciate the short fat to bore ration configuration never knew it could be that efficent though. Pretty cool.

 

[Temper]

2500 round barrel life?
6.5-284 pushing 140 grainers at around 2950-3050 starts to go tits up around 1200 rounds.
How does this get such great barrel life?

People brought up those points against the 6.5 Saum but there's lots of guys attesting to getting close to 2500 with some reporting more. The OP is reporting 3050fps with 60gr of H1000 and 140 hybrids in the 6.5 PRC. A quick skim through the 6.5 SAUM thread would show how similar these two rounds are. I think the trick is running a slow burning powder like H1000 with fairly mild loads(OP loading 3grs under max pressure load for 3000fps), and not shooting the barrel too hot can get you to that 2500.

 

[cudby]

I will give 6,5 RPC a go and get a barrel to replace my 300WM.

I head that 6.5 PRC has longer Brass-Neck than the 6.5 SAUM and this should cause for longer barrel life. Does anybody agree in this (I am not that in to brass design so I can verify this)?

 

[Rockfish Dave]

ĶThis case does nothing that my 6.5 SLR Improved does with less powder and standard bolt face. Getting just over 3000 fps with pressure of 58,000 shooting 140 ELD's over H 4350 with Lapia Palma brass. All this with single digit ES... If you hand load save the powder and barrel life and just run a SLR Improved unless you just got to jump on the bandwagon and love to pay over $30 a box of ammo....

I'm going to run the 147gr ELD-M over some H1000 to see if I can get it to run....

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...sting.3821760/

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...d-reamer-print

Reamer prints
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ifles/6629040-6-5-slr-s-improved-reamer-print

I've been running this for about 5 years with nothing but a positive experience.

 

[NewsShooter]

This case does nothing that my 6.5 SLR Improved does with less powder and standard bolt face. Getting just over 3000 fps with pressure of 58,000 shooting 140 ELD's over H 4350 with Lapia Palma brass. All this with single digit ES... I you hand load save the powder and barrel life and just run a SLR Improved unless you just got to jump on the bandwagon and love to pay over $30 a box of ammo....

I'm going to run the 147gr ELD-M over some H1000 to see if I can get it to run....

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...sting.3821760/

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...d-reamer-print

I've been running this for about 5 years with nothing but a positive experience.

Can you get that in factory ammo?

 

[Rockfish Dave]

No, so if you do not handload it would obviously not be an option for you as I alluded to in my first post. For those that do, it would definitely be an option.

Same magazine capacity as creedmore/6.5 x 47/260REM, etc with the velocity of the 6.5 PRC. Barrel life should also be better for those that care.

Also multiple sources of brass.

 

[orkan]

6.5 SLR imp is off topic. This thread is for 6.5PRC info. No one is interested in yet another cartridge pissing match. No one cares who likes or dislikes the PRC.

 

[NateVA]

Think this would work on a Mausingfield short action? Not sure if the meaningful dimensions are any different.

 

[Rockfish Dave]

6.5 SLR imp is off topic. This thread is for 6.5PRC info. No one is interested in yet another cartridge pissing match. No one cares who likes or dislikes the PRC.

Thats kind of arrogant to assume that you speak for everyone.

How is this for on topic information?

The only brass supplier is Hornady.

The performance is on parity with a much smaller case that is a true short action cartridge with multiple sources for brass (running with sane pressure levels).

I may have overlooked it if you posted it but is this getting single digit extreme spreads for five round strings? *Edit:With factory loads? Since that is what you are hanging your hat on. If this is supposed to be precision cartridge that would go a long way to accuracy.

What is the expected barrel life life going to be with this over bore case? My bet is not so hot. But I am not making a buck off of selling replacement barrels, so to me and probably others that pay for barrels rather than sell them, it matters.

Or or for those that say barrels don't matter, because they burn through 2 or 3 a year in prs matches. Does anyone really think they will run this caliber in prs comps given the case diameter will limit the number of rounds per magazine?

 

[orkan]

So you're on a mission to single handedly undermine the 6.5PRC by derailing threads on the subject? That's your plan? What's the purpose of your posts?

The 6.5PRC is here, and it's here to stay. Factory support. Factory brass. Factory ammo. 3000fps 6.5 from a 26" barrel easy button. ... and yes, I was seeing single digit ES across 5 shots.

If you want to thump the 6.5 SLR improved drum, start your own thread. Simple. Or do you want to just sit in here and fucking argue?

 

[Rockfish Dave]

So you're on a mission to single handedly undermine the 6.5PRC by derailing threads on the subject? That's your plan? What's the purpose of your posts?

The 6.5PRC is here, and it's here to stay. Factory support. Factory brass. Factory ammo. 3000fps 6.5 from a 26" barrel easy button. ... and yes, I was seeing single digit ES across 5 shots.

If you want to thump the 6.5 SLR improved drum, start your own thread. Simple. Or do you want to just sit in here and fucking argue?

You have attributed a lot to me that I neither said nor implied. You also seem very defensive over of all things an inanimate piece Of brass that neither of us has the rights to. I have zero financial interest in my design and have shared it freely.

When I pointed out that the same performance can be had in a smaller case that easily works in a short action your go to is to try to shout me down.

Pathetic.

 

[orkan]

Staying on topic is apparently a concept that you just can't grasp. What exactly prompted you to come in a 6.5PRC thread and start promoting an obscure wildcat?

No, scratch that... I don't give a shit why people derail threads.

 

[TheGerman]

Well this didn't take long.

 

[dirthead1]

What bolt face does this cartridge use? Looks very intriguing. I have a short action Win 70 that I'll be building into something next year, but bolt face might be an issue.

 

[dimar1492]

What bolt face does this cartridge use? Looks very intriguing. I have a short action Win 70 that I'll be building into something next year, but bolt face might be an issue.

Magnum

 

[NewsShooter]

No, so if you do not handload it would obviously not be an option for you as I alluded to in my first post. For those that do, it would definitely be an option.

Same magazine capacity as creedmore/6.5 x 47/260REM, etc with the velocity of the 6.5 PRC. Barrel life should also be better for those that care.

Also multiple sources of brass.

And if you reload there are lots of other options as well aren't there? If it's such a great option why isn't it more popular? George Gardner has 10 reloads for brass testing without issues, I presume he's pretty knowledgable about the subject.

 

[tansinator]

Laugning at you; for some one that doesn't "give a shit" you keep yammering on. What a pathetic tool.

Keep being a "tough guy" on the internet... rolling my eyes. Pathetic is too good for you.

Orkan knows everything, didn't you get the memo.

 

[nick338]

This case does nothing that my 6.5 SLR Improved does with less powder and standard bolt face. Getting just over 3000 fps with pressure of 58,000 shooting 140 ELD's over H 4350 with Lapia Palma brass. All this with single digit ES... If you hand load save the powder and barrel life and just run a SLR Improved unless you just got to jump on the bandwagon and love to pay over $30 a box of ammo....

I'm going to run the 147gr ELD-M over some H1000 to see if I can get it to run....

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...sting.3821760/

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...d-reamer-print

I've been running this for about 5 years with nothing but a positive experience.

So which is it 2900 or 3000 at 58000 because clearly the post that you're referring to stated 2900 with a 140 eld which is 250 fps off from what the prc is doing with the same bullet weight. Only when loaded to 47.6 gr and seeing signs of pressure did the cartridge see 3000 which is still less, so to derail a thread just because you don't like what someone else is doing seems pointless to me. Physics is physics and suggesting a new factory supported cartridge does nothing your basement wildcat does is retarded. You can manipulate numbers all you want but your hot 260 rem will never do what the prc does.

It seems like some people just refuse to understand or accept that Hornady and several other big names in the industry wanted a short action, factory loaded option with more performance than what is currently available. It's that simple.

Get over the notion that what you're using is the answer to everyone else's interests. No one is forcing you to buy it or build a rifle on it.

 

[cudby]

Got a hold of a customer's new TS Customs 6.5PRC today for some preliminary load development. This new cartridge is certainly going to become a mainstay. I predict its upward rise to favor to be even faster than the 6.5CM. It is certainly the easy button for 3000fps from a 140gr. ... and folks, TS Customs has this thing on lock.

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"NVZK9iTh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/NVZK9iTh.jpg"}[/IMG2]

It's always fun working with all-the-way builds. Too many times customers go cheap and it never seems to work in their favor. This rifle sports a KMW Sentinel stock, Lone Peak Fuzion action, 26" benchmark barrel, Thunderbeast ultra 9 6.5, and a triggertech trigger.

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"IwpqEv6h.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/IwpqEv6h.jpg"}[/IMG2]

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"iuqaBQlh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/iuqaBQlh.jpg"}[/IMG2]

Above you see the 6.5PRC on the left and a 6.5 Creedmoor on the right. The PRC is setup with a 140 hybrid at .020" off the lands. You can see how that positions it in a strapless AccurateMag 300WSM mag in the image below. Certainly not an abundance of room, but this thing is very workable in a short action. The bullet isn't dangling way down in the powder column either. The BT/body junction on the bullet is just beneath the neck/shoulder junction. Just barely.
[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"Z1v9OQlh.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/Z1v9OQlh.jpg"}[/IMG2]

[IMG2=JSON]{"alt":"rqTAZb8h.jpg","data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/rqTAZb8h.jpg"}[/IMG2]

The round you see above is set to an OAL of 2.940. Nice comfortable place to be. I started off at 56gr of H1000, but quickly realized there's plenty of room there. I ran up to 62gr before pressure was way harsh. This was basically the entire case and neck full of powder. At 60gr it is right on the edge of being a bit of a hot load on this 85 degree day. During most folks deer seasons, it will certainly not be a hot load. 60gr of H1000 produced 3060fps out of this 26" barrel while 59gr produced 3010fps. The case fill at 59gr was what I'd call perfect. At 60gr it gets up into the neck just a touch at times.

Accuracy and precision were both quite good...
It's always a pleasure to work with rifles from TS Customs, but those that sport components like this are just so fun. Now I need to speak with this customer about getting a Tangent Theta in place of that optic it's saddled with.

Great article. I really appreciate when people go though the effort and do quality reviews like this.

Which of these Mags is the Rifle uses ? http://accurate-mag.com/magazines/

also, would you mind posting some pictures of the 6.5 PRC next to some other 6,5 Cartridges?

 

[Rockfish Dave]

You are running kind of loose with facts given 1) This is no more a 260REM as the 6.5x47 is a 260 REM, 2) Not seeing where you are getting that the PRC is running over 250fps faster velocity given:

From the OP: "started off at 56gr of H1000, but quickly realized there's plenty of room there. I ran up to 62gr before pressure was way harsh. This was basically the entire case and neck full of powder. At 60gr it is right on the edge of being a bit of a hot load on this 85 degree day. During most folks deer seasons, it will certainly not be a hot load. 60gr of H1000 produced 3060fps out of this 26" barrel while 59gr produced 3010fps."

From my personal expirience, I'm running 44grs of H4350 and getting avg.velocity of 2925fps, I stopped there because it worked so well I did not see the need to push further. The post you are referring to he ran it up to 47.6 grs of H4350 with an average velocity of 3036 when he saw pressure signs in palma brass, which is thicker (less internal case volume creating higher pressure and small primers which don't typically show primer pressure signs like a large primer would). So his loads were likely worst case.

So when a case with roughly 1/3 less powder, same projectile, same barrel length is running with an over bore, handload vs handload, and allowing for variance in velocities that one will see from barrel to barrel, thats pretty much same performance in my opinion (subjective I know, so no offence taken if you disagree).

Add to that, brass from lapua (which would require either neck turning or a change of the reamer spec), to any of the other brass manufacturers that make a 308win based case and the SLR-Imp. is hands down the logistical "winner". My results are from cheap amd plentiful Winchester brass (243win).

Keep in mind Greg is getting his results from handloads not factory ammo. So any inferance that the factory ammo will perform the same is yet to be seen.

You seem to have jumped on Gregs bandwagon that attributed things that I neither said nor implied. What I did say and imply is there are other options out there, even ones that are not overbore, and true short action cartridges if one is inclined to handload.

One example is my improved design. To say the PRC is the only way to get there in a short action (looking at the coal I'd say marginally at best, not much room to chase the lands given the length, and with this overbore that should be a consideration) is disingenious.

To say it's special because of brass is silly as well as i pointed out before.

If it's because of factory ammo, well Greg was testing handloads, tuned for this particular rifle not factory ammo. As an a side: I hope the factory ammo is good, as that would be a good development overall. Lack of consistant high quality ammo is what drove me to handload all those years ago, so if this is good out of the box that would be great.

PS: If you and greg cannot handle differing views, opinions, or alternatives, without being "trggered" an open forum is probably not the place for you, or snowflakes in general.

 

[cudby]

See the picture (from the left): 6.5x47, 6.5CM, 243, 6.5 GAP 4S, 6.5PRC, 6.5x55, 6.5x55AI

This picture was posted on the FB site for 6.5 PRC. I really like it because it shows 6.5 cases next to each other.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000381621/6half-prc-143-grain-eld-x-20-rounds

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000381620/6half-prc-147-grain-eld-match-20-rounds

factory ammo out already. Less than WSM ammo to boot...

 

[nick338]

You are running kind of loose with facts given 1) This is no more a 260REM as the 6.5x47 is a 260 REM, 2) Not seeing where you are getting that the PRC is running over 250fps faster velocity given:

From the OP: "started off at 56gr of H1000, but quickly realized there's plenty of room there. I ran up to 62gr before pressure was way harsh. This was basically the entire case and neck full of powder. At 60gr it is right on the edge of being a bit of a hot load on this 85 degree day. During most folks deer seasons, it will certainly not be a hot load. 60gr of H1000 produced 3060fps out of this 26" barrel while 59gr produced 3010fps."

From my personal expirience, I'm running 44grs of H4350 and getting avg.velocity of 2925fps, I stopped there because it worked so well I did not see the need to push further. The post you are referring to he ran it up to 47.6 grs of H4350 with an average velocity of 3036 when he saw pressure signs in palma brass, which is thicker (less internal case volume creating higher pressure and small primers which don't typically show primer pressure signs like a large primer would). So his loads were likely worst case.

So when a case with roughly 1/3 less powder, same projectile, same barrel length is running with an over bore, handload vs handload, and allowing for variance in velocities that one will see from barrel to barrel, thats pretty much same performance in my opinion (subjective I know, so no offence taken if you disagree).

Add to that, brass from lapua (which would require either neck turning or a change of the reamer spec), to any of the other brass manufacturers that make a 308win based case and the SLR-Imp. is hands down the logistical "winner". My results are from cheap amd plentiful Winchester brass (243win).

Keep in mind Greg is getting his results from handloads not factory ammo. So any inferance that the factory ammo will perform the same is yet to be seen.

You seem to have jumped on Gregs bandwagon that attributed things that I neither said nor implied. What I did say and imply is there are other options out there, even ones that are not overbore, and true short action cartridges if one is inclined to handload.

One example is my improved design. To say the PRC is the only way to get there in a short action (looking at the coal I'd say marginally at best, not much room to chase the lands given the length, and with this overbore that should be a consideration) is disingenious.

To say it's special because of brass is silly as well as i pointed out before.

If it's because of factory ammo, well Greg was testing handloads, tuned for this particular rifle not factory ammo. As an a side: I hope the factory ammo is good, as that would be a good development overall. Lack of consistant high quality ammo is what drove me to handload all those years ago, so if this is good out of the box that would be great.

PS: If you and greg cannot handle differing views, opinions, or alternatives, without being "trggered" an open forum is probably not the place for you, or snowflakes in general.

10-24-2017, 11:29 PM
From GAPs FB page, sounds promising.

George Gardner
Admin · March 7
Been testing the new 6.5 Hornady PRC all morning, The brass is Excellent, Passed the test of 10 Loadings with a stiff charge on the 135 JLK and 147 ELD with ease. Pockets are still tight and the neck only stretched about .015". For the 135 a charge of 60.3 grains of RL26 yields 3200 fps. No pressure The 147 does 3000 with 58.2 grains H1000, light pressure . These are out of a 24" Bartlein 1-8 twist 5R. Loaded to 2.945



For anyone who hasn't see the above post.


Some numbers to enlighten people.

65 slr improved 140gr eld bc .610 velocity 2925 windage at 1k using 10mph as a reference is 62.1"

65 prc 150gr sierra bc. 713 velocity 3000 windage at 1k using 10mph as a reference is 48.9"

My current 6.5x47 lapua 147 eld bc .697 velocity 2735 windage at 1k using 10mph as a reference 61.6"


All numbers are based on manufacturers claims and dependent on barrel length, atmospherics, twist etc but the point is, is I already had a cartridge that performs in the same class as the one you are promoting. The prc exceeds this by a substantial margin especially with the new 150gr class of bullets coming out and also becomes an attractive choice to anyone that wants to pick up a box of factory ammo that doesn't reload.

It certainly is not the magic cartridge that will rule the world but it does what the engineers and designers want it do within the parameters they set forth which is to exceed all current factory loaded options. I'm not quite sure why this is frosting so many asses.

As far as discussions in a open forum, I will leave that alone so this doesn't get off topic and turn into a pissing match.

 

[Rockfish Dave]

10-24-2017, 11:29 PM
From GAPs FB page, sounds promising.

George Gardner
Admin · March 7
Been testing the new 6.5 Hornady PRC all morning, The brass is Excellent, Passed the test of 10 Loadings with a stiff charge on the 135 JLK and 147 ELD with ease. Pockets are still tight and the neck only stretched about .015". For the 135 a charge of 60.3 grains of RL26 yields 3200 fps. No pressure The 147 does 3000 with 58.2 grains H1000, light pressure . These are out of a 24" Bartlein 1-8 twist 5R. Loaded to 2.945



For anyone who hasn't see the above post.


Some numbers to enlighten people.

65 slr improved 140gr eld bc .610 velocity 2925 windage at 1k using 10mph as a reference is 62.1"

65 prc 150gr sierra bc. 713 velocity 3000 windage at 1k using 10mph as a reference is 48.9"

My current 6.5x47 lapua 147 eld bc .697 velocity 2735 windage at 1k using 10mph as a reference 61.6"


All numbers are based on manufacturers claims and dependent on barrel length, atmospherics, twist etc but the point is, is I already had a cartridge that performs in the same class as the one you are promoting. The prc exceeds this by a substantial margin especially with the new 150gr class of bullets coming out and also becomes an attractive choice to anyone that wants to pick up a box of factory ammo that doesn't reload.

It certainly is not the magic cartridge that will rule the world but it does what the engineers and designers want it do within the parameters they set forth which is to exceed all current factory loaded options. I'm not quite sure why this is frosting so many asses.

As far as discussions in a open forum, I will leave that alone so this doesn't get off topic and turn into a pissing match.

You and greg are always good for a laugh. You and greg wouldn't happen to be related?

Still running loose with facts.

The PRC is at max safe load running 3,000 fps with the 140gr ELD with both George and Greg, but will somehow magically push the 150gr SMK at the same velocity... Call me a skeptic, but I'll believe it when I see it

* edit: George is getting 3,000 fps with the 147gr ELD using R26. Higher velocies can be attained with R26 in my expirience than both H1000 and H4350, but I no longer use it due to temperature insstability. Thus I have not used in the SLR-Improved. If I had you would see another step up in velocity.

Also with a recommended twist rate of 1-7.5 I am guessing this is a long bullet. Good luck stuffing that in a short action magazine.

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/1...chking-bullet/

Your comparison is apples and oranges... think before you post.

Hope this post doesn't upset your sensitive feelings.

 

[nick338]

The 147 does 3000 with 58.2 grains H1000, light pressure . These are out of a 24" Bartlein 1-8 twist 5R. Loaded to 2.945


Perhaps you missed this, so I'll post it again. I'll be sure to post some numbers out of my 27" 1-7 Bartlein.

 

[Rockfish Dave]

The 147 does 3000 with 58.2 grains H1000, light pressure . These are out of a 24" Bartlein 1-8 twist 5R. Loaded to 2.945


Perhaps you missed this, so I'll post it again. I'll be sure to post some numbers out of my 27" 1-7 Bartlein.

I read it correctly the first time and then incorrectly when double checking for accuracy. Thanks for clarifying. So they are both maxing out with pretty much the same load.

Looking forward to your results running the 150 gr SMK's in the PRC case with a short action. With the longer bullet my thought is it will either be too long for the magazine or be seated deep into the case taking up case capacity while creating higher pressure (with less powder). I applaud you for putting your money where your mouth is, not knowing if it will work, rather than spending other peoples money (customer) to use as test mules. When I jumped into my design I committed financially to something that worked only in my models, there was still the chance that it would not work. So good on you for making the financial commitment to record if this will work, as any data is good data, even if it does not do what you want.

I would also be interested in how many rounds you get down the pipe before the lands move enough to make accuracy take a dump because of the lack of room to chase the lands.

I get you are vested in this, but it's a fools errand to run this in a short action, and if moving up to a long action there are better options out there. Just like in a short action there are better options out there.

Just to clarify: with internal ballistics everything is a trade off. If those trade offs work for you, limited barrel life, inabilty to chase the lands further reducing the barrel life before the barrel is actually "burned up" for roughly 85 fps, then good for you. Most would want a better option. That option I have provided free of charge. You can thank me later after you find out I was correct and rebarrel to my 6.5 SLR-Improved.

*Edit: The SLR Improved design that I made was designed with the 140gr projectiles in mind. I'm not sure it will have enough capacity to run the 147gr ELD-M bullets but I bought 300 to test. Once I'm done I'll post up.

 

[nick338]

Guys are running long bullets in short cases all the time. It may not be ideal in every case but it beats having to build another rifle just just to squeeze out a little more performance from the same cartridge. There are plenty of long action cartridges that will exceed the prc in performance but I'm not interested in a long action for various reasons. Nor am I interested in marginally better performance than my current 6.5x47 which is the case with every other 6.5 out there right now with the exception of the Gap 4s.

The data below is promising when referring to magazine length, not ideal but again it does work. At 1.648" the 195 is .148" longer than the 150 sierra and if I don't have any luck with it the new 147 JLK with a bc of .700 is 1.438" which is roughly the same as the 147 eld,

7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum
195 Grain, PN: 28550 Bullet, 2.935" COAL, 24" Barrel. 9/16/2015 RB
Bullet	Powder	Start Load In Grains	Approx. Start Velocity	Max. Load In Grains	Approx. Max. Velocity	Approx. Fill Ratio
195 Grain	Accurate Magpro	56.5	2572	59.6	2720	99%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-19	51.5	2535	54.3	2659	96%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-22	54.0	2580	56.6	2699	99%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-23	53.0	2529	56.0	2654	101%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-25	56.0	2593	59.0	2723	105%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-26	55.5	2607	58.4	2736	96%
195 Grain	Hodgdon H4350	49.0	2478	51.8	2598	94%
195 Grain	Hodgdon H4831SC	53.0	2519	55.7	2644	97%
195 Grain	IMR 4350	49.0	2482	51.7	2598	92%
195 Grain	IMR 4831	49.0	2488	51.7	2600	95%
195 Grain	IMR 7828 SSC	54.0	2583	56.8	2717	98%
195 Grain	Norma URP	48.5	2515	50.9	2617	91%
195 Grain	Norma 204	50.5	2514	53.2	2637	91%
195 Grain	Norma MRP	54.5	2597	57.3	2724	97%
195 Grain	Ramshot Hunter	51.0	2539	53.5	2646	92%
195 Grain	Ramshot Magnum	58.0	2542	61.1	2687	99%
195 Grain	VihtaVuori N160	52.0	2468	55.0	2600	101%
195 Grain	VihtaVuori N560	54.0	2579	57.1	2726	99%

 

[gregsjt]

I get you are vested in this, but it's a fools errand to run this in a short action, and if moving up to a long action there are better options out there.

It looks like your improved round has a case length of 2.04 (from base to rim), isn't that almost exactly the same length as the PRC and SAUM?

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

 

[Rockfish Dave]

It looks like your improved round has a case length of 2.04 (from base to rim), isn't that almost exactly the same length as the PRC and SAUM?

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

Pretty much, and getting pretty much the same velocity with 140 gr bullets without running on the ragged edge of pressure. Could it be pushed harder? Yes, but that doesn't interest me. Peak velocity was over 3,030 fps with ejector swipes.

The case length is virtually the same as a 243 Win, which only further validates my points on the effects of the 150 gr SMK on internal ballistics. At some point the bullet length neccesitates moving to an action that will accomodate the longer COAL, due to the trade offs I previously mentioned.

 

[Rockfish Dave]

Guys are running long bullets in short cases all the time. It may not be ideal in every case but it beats having to build another rifle just just to squeeze out a little more performance from the same cartridge. There are plenty of long action cartridges that will exceed the prc in performance but I'm not interested in a long action for various reasons. Nor am I interested in marginally better performance than my current 6.5x47 which is the case with every other 6.5 out there right now with the exception of the Gap 4s.

The data below is promising when referring to magazine length, not ideal but again it does work. At 1.648" the 195 is .148" longer than the 150 sierra and if I don't have any luck with it the new 147 JLK with a bc of .700 is 1.438" which is roughly the same as the 147 eld,

7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum
195 Grain, PN: 28550 Bullet, 2.935" COAL, 24" Barrel. 9/16/2015 RB
Bullet	Powder	Start Load In Grains	Approx. Start Velocity	Max. Load In Grains	Approx. Max. Velocity	Approx. Fill Ratio
195 Grain	Accurate Magpro	56.5	2572	59.6	2720	99%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-19	51.5	2535	54.3	2659	96%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-22	54.0	2580	56.6	2699	99%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-23	53.0	2529	56.0	2654	101%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-25	56.0	2593	59.0	2723	105%
195 Grain	Alliant RE-26	55.5	2607	58.4	2736	96%
195 Grain	Hodgdon H4350	49.0	2478	51.8	2598	94%
195 Grain	Hodgdon H4831SC	53.0	2519	55.7	2644	97%
195 Grain	IMR 4350	49.0	2482	51.7	2598	92%
195 Grain	IMR 4831	49.0	2488	51.7	2600	95%
195 Grain	IMR 7828 SSC	54.0	2583	56.8	2717	98%
195 Grain	Norma URP	48.5	2515	50.9	2617	91%
195 Grain	Norma 204	50.5	2514	53.2	2637	91%
195 Grain	Norma MRP	54.5	2597	57.3	2724	97%
195 Grain	Ramshot Hunter	51.0	2539	53.5	2646	92%
195 Grain	Ramshot Magnum	58.0	2542	61.1	2687	99%
195 Grain	VihtaVuori N160	52.0	2468	55.0	2600	101%
195 Grain	VihtaVuori N560	54.0	2579	57.1	2726	99%

Yes, people have been putting heavy bullets in small cases. And look what you get velocity wise... Velocities that do not maximize the BC that the bullet is designed for. Personally, I shoot for velocity between 2,800 at a minimum, and 3,000 fps at a maximum. It seems to be a good balance with everything...

Coincidentally, that is why I built my 7mm on a long action magnum to run the 195 gr Bergers.

 

[nick338]

Ok a good example of what you are talking about is my lapua load. At only 2735 it doesn't maximize the bc but it is still better in the wind then the 130 berger I was shooting. The PRC solves this for me and does take advantage of the highest bc bullets available even if I have to shove it another .030" into the case to get it to fit in a mag. And at 2910 which is Hornady's "safe" load it still does it better than anything else in the same class regardless of how "improved" it is.

 

[cudby]

I glad you all are taking your time discussing this. You got som great points (and I can look past the “I am right” since your arguing pretty technical, so again thanks) and can I ask, for my own clairification, why should I build a 6.5 PRC instead of a 6.5 SAUM (It needs to be Magnum bolt head and 6.5)?

I want to shoot range out to 1.000 meters and some PRS.

Please give som advise.

 

[nick338]

Ok you sit in your basement and spend hours forming cases that offer minimal gain over what everyone else is currently using and probably feeds like shit through a magazine to boot.

I'm not sure if you're just stubborn or willfully dense but I've laid out fact after fact that the PRC will push the heavies at 3000 or better depending on barrel length and still feed through a mag. I can't substantiate the claim because it was not done in front of me but a very prominent builder in the industry working very closely with this cartridge stated to me 2 days ago they were seeing 3100 with a 147 eld. I did not ask for load data because I did not feel it was my place.

Regardless, your analogy is garbage. You're basically saying 2950-3000 does not take advantage of the bullets available which is the case for 90% of the cartridges out there, yours included. Ever heard of the 338 Lapua? That cartridge wasn't even on the map until it was loaded with Sierra's 300gr at around 2750. Care to discount what that cartridge has become?

 

[nick338]

I glad you all are taking your time discussing this. You got som great points (and I can look past the “I am right” since your arguing pretty technical, so again thanks) and can I ask, for my own clairification, why should I build a 6.5 PRC instead of a 6.5 SAUM (It needs to be Magnum bolt head and 6.5)?

I want to shoot range out to 1.000 meters and some PRS.

Please give som advise.

Ballistically they are very similar. There are a ton of rumors flying around that the PRC feeds better because it does not have the rebated rim like the SAUM and is also slightly more efficient. You can also buy factory ammo if you do not reload. Some people have suggested that GA Precision originally wanted this to be the GAP 4s but the SAUM case was chosen instead for reasons I do not know. Beyond that I can't elaborate until I have some time behind it. Anxiously awaiting a barrel.

Yes you need a magnum bolt face.

Should prove to be a great 1000 meter cartridge. Guys testing it are saying it shoots one hole at 100.

PRS, maybe. Everyone has a different tolerance for recoil so your own experience will tell you what works in that regard. It will not be as fast back on target as a light 6mm but a bad wind call with a 6 may be an impact with a heavy 6.5. Impacts at distance will be more noticeable for sure.

 

[nick338]

Ahhh, looks like i triggered you again. Just to correct a few coments you made:

I fully formed 400 pieces on one rainy day. Of the 500 cases I am almost through with the 4th loading. So close to 2,000 rounds fired to date. Which leads me to your comment about not feeding: Zero feeding issues so far (talking about something you have zero expierience with) in close to 2,000 rounds.

Since you are dense, I will explain what I was talking about running heavies in undersized cases or trying to shoe horn a case that would be optimized for a long action into a short action.

I specifically stated that the velocity I target is 2,800 minimum to 3,000... The 195 bergers in the example provided fell well short of that.

One question, how does it feel to be a living example of a character from the movie Idiocracy? Is it a happy existance, or do you find you are constantly confused and frustrated?

Ok so you didn't change the shoulder angle, you got me there. However, I can admit when I'm wrong. You on the other hand continue to beat your own drum about this incredible cartridge that you and about 3 other people shoot based on the fallacy that the PRC does nothing that yours does not.

PRC meets your target velocity and then some with current bullets available and if I have to shoehorn them in the case to fit in the mag by giving up 3% of the cartridge's full potential I'll take that trade off every day vs building another rifle. So your explanation doesn't hold any merit for this cartridge. Perhaps, in the extreme case of the Berger 195 it does not meet your minimum criteria but the data was based on a 24" barrel so that can be improved upon.

Extracting every bit of potential out of a short action cartridge obviously bothers you for some reason. I'm sure you could have saved George and Hornady a shit ton of money had you just enlightened them before they made this terrible blunder.

 

[gregsjt]

Pretty much, and getting pretty much the same velocity with 140 gr bullets without running on the ragged edge of pressure. Could it be pushed harder? Yes, but that doesn't interest me. Peak velocity was over 3,030 fps with ejector swipes.

The case length is virtually the same as a 243 Win, which only further validates my points on the effects of the 150 gr SMK on internal ballistics. At some point the bullet length neccesitates moving to an action that will accomodate the longer COAL, due to the trade offs I previously mentioned.

So if the length of your case is the same as the PRC won't your case suffer the same issue when one uses long, heavy, high BC bullets from a short action magazine?

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

 

[nick338]

You are funny, thanks for tne laughs. Post up when you have actual data from personal expirience. Everything you have contributed is from things you heard or flat out speculation. Mine comes from research, models and application...

I hope no one takes what you say seriously. If they don't they will likely be throwing at a minimum a grand away.

So you made a factless claim against this cartridge with zero experience so you could pound your chest and bad-mouth it before it even had a chance. I give you proof gathered from others who are testing it and people aren't supposed to take me seriously?? The laughs are coming at your expense pal.

Why don't you market your cartridge to some big names genius and see what kind of reception you get. I'll hold my breath.

 

[Rockfish Dave]

So if the length of your case is the same as the PRC won't your case suffer the same issue when one uses long, heavy, high BC bullets from a short action magazine?

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

That is true, it desgned with 140 gr bullets in mind. I want to see if I can get the 147 grain eld match bullets to run although not specifically designed for it.

The 150 grain bullets would be a no go for several reasons, all of which would also apply to the PRC. Like I said with internal ballistcs everything is a trade off. I would run the 150gr and heavier in a long action.

This whole shit show started with greg spouting off like the PRC is the only thing that can push a 140gr bullet to around 3,000fps. When I pointed out that has been done with less powder, he and a few others pitched a tantrum.

My results are conservative and are within 85 fps of what greg got with a third less capacity... some just can't accept facts.

BTW: nick338 was also wrong on the shoulder, it is pushed back to make the longer neck and 30 Degree shoulder. He truely must be related to greg.

 

[Rockfish Dave]

So you made a factless claim against this cartridge with zero experience so you could pound your chest and bad-mouth it before it even had a chance. I give you proof gathered from others who are testing it and people aren't supposed to take me seriously?? The laughs are coming at your expense pal.

Why don't you market your cartridge to some big names genius and see what kind of reception you get. I'll hold my breath.

I was commenting on what was presented, unless gregs posts are complted bs. Is that what you are saying?

The vast amount of what I shared was about my cartridge, other than the 150 gr SMK, which anyone with basic math skills can confirm. So no bad mouthing just facts.

Also knowing internal ballistics there is no getting around the effects of an overbore case on the throat of a barrel. Yes it can be mitigated to some extent by choice in powder, how much pressure (how hot), etc., but at the end of the day it holds true and is well documented.

In case you missed it, it is open source. Free for anyone to use. Not everyone is pushing things for personal gain. Some share for the love of the sport, and in my case because I came up with something that works and works well and would like to make it available to others to experience the fun of hitting targets further than they thought possible and with greater ease.

 

[nick338]

Wrong, re-read Greg's post. At no time did he insinuate the PRC was the only cartridge that could push 140's at 3000. He merely said it was the easy button but you felt like you had to go into attack mode because you were butt hurt that someone else came up with a round that might interest people more than your own abortion. So you shit all over someone else's thread just for the sake of doing it, He posted load data, facts and pictures of what he was seeing with the round so how exactly did that come off as being anything other than sharing information?

So you changed the taper slightly on a cartridge that someone else already came up with and all of a sudden people will be hitting targets further than they ever thought possible. Well aren't you the messiah we all wish we were.

And apparently you aren't very good in math. The SLR case is 55.5 grs before you increased it and the PRC is 69.4. That's roughly a 20% difference not a third. And if you're comparing actual load density then still it's only 25%

I just called Hornady and they agree with you. They apologized for their obvious failure and fired all of their engineers. Now take your meds and go to sleep.

 

[nick338]

Quite the rantrum. Feel better?
Foest, someday you can have a real contribution just like the grown ups. Until then, try not to pitch a fit when others do.

And your contribution was nothing more than an inflammatory statement that had zero to do with the topic of this thread and someone called you out on it.

Now you're just running out of excuses and it's pissing you off. Try and let some of the air out before your head explodes.