You could “supposedly“ buy a good 22 Grendel barrel and it shoots like shit. Too many random fliers. I gave up on it and ordered a 6fat rat. It’s still sitting on the bench.
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6 ARC - Anyone Regret It? Also considering 22 ARC
- Thread starter rlsmith1
- Start date
22G can suffer from over-twisting. When the Valk came out, everyone jumped on the barrel twist being insufficient for heavy bullets. But, you can push a bullet too fast in a fast twist barrel and “blow up” the bullets.
I have a 22G with a 6.5 twist. It plenty accurate up to about 2700 fps with 88gr ELD-M, but throws wild fliers and can make banana shaped hole in targets above that. Incidentally, that is right at 300,000 rip ‘ems…
I have a 22G with a 6.5 twist. It plenty accurate up to about 2700 fps with 88gr ELD-M, but throws wild fliers and can make banana shaped hole in targets above that. Incidentally, that is right at 300,000 rip ‘ems…
The 450 bushmaster and such cartridges are like 40k PSI correct? What do you thin about using those bolts to shoot 22GT out of an AR-15? What kind of pressure are those bolts made for?
Not sure. We got some of the rifles from the early testing but no optics. I am a person or two removed from what the various entities are picking, and don't really keep up with that side of things.
If you shoot a 45gr bullet from a 20” 6.5 Grendel, it will be doing over 4000fps. Not a joke.
Grendel has been overlooked for lightweight bullets.
I first noticed something was going on with my 12” and 90gr TNT factory ammo clocking 2698fps avg.
The efficiency of the case is a real thing. You can smoke pretty much all the other AR-15 compatible cartridges when it comes to raw mv numbers, but most people have been focused on higher BC 120-123gr class bullets all these years.
It cranks when you load it light, which is great for varmint-slayers and typical engagement distances against 2-legged.
Just got shipping notification on my 8.5” Criterion pipe. Custom Internal engine for Grendel is showing I will have 20” 5.56 performance from the 8.5” PDW pipe. We’ll see.
I was looking over a Ruger .450 Bushmaster AR-15 at Sportsman’s and noticed that the bolt was a weird purple color.
I checked Ruger’s site description of that rifle SKU and it said they use an exotic alloy for the bolt.
- To support the large case head of .450 Bushmaster ammunition, the .450 Bushmaster bolt is engineered with tapered lugs and machined from a high-strength superalloy.
Once you step up to a .473” case head and corresponding body diameter in the AR-15, you really are better served with a wider magazine well, a longer magazine well for useful COL, engineered magazines with a serious budget to go through all the headaches with high-speed photography across the environmental conditions, and a pyramid test program using a nailed-down set of specs for the ammunition.
If I was doing it, I would want a budget of $100k for the ammo, $10-$20k for the initial 10 pyramid base rifles, with $250k for the engineering staff, and $100k for the man testers to pull triggers at the ranges. The rifles have to have different lowers with re-located FCG pins to place the trigger/hammer a bit more to the rear like Revolution did. BCG needs the carrier key base shortened with space so it doesn’t slam into the RET boss tower. Firing pin tail needs to be lengthened to match up with the hammer swing contact position. Barrel extension and bolt need to be enlarged or made from exotics. The rifle is the “easy" part.
We would need to be working with a reputable magazine manufacturer who has competent senior staff and the right culture. This is all way outside of the budget for a small shop and the financial ROIs just aren’t there if the cartridge/rifle combo doesn’t deliver performance that would justify the above efforts. You would really need something earth-shattering.
For the AR-15, I think I would just steer away from the .473” cartridge heads for the time being. As a tinkerer, I would use the MGI modular mag well approach, machine a fatter, longer mag well with a shorter FCG pocket section, and 3D the mags. It would be a self-funded project at that point.
Seems kinda pointless if I can sling lighter bullets at faster speeds from proven components that are drop-in currently with the existing unmodified AR-15 and mags, running relatively-low peak chamber pressures.
Hornady ammo is showing up in the brick & mortar retailers.
Midwayusa notifications piped up yesterday with Starline 6ARC brass.
Things are looking up in my opinion.
Midwayusa notifications piped up yesterday with Starline 6ARC brass.
Things are looking up in my opinion.
Shooting report from this weekend to compare the 6 ARC and 6.5 Creed gassers.
6 ARC Particulars
A few days back I took the 6 ARC to 780y in 10-20mph winds and bits were difficult. However, I was shooting off a tripod sitting so not totally a knock on the ARC. Target was a 33% IPSC target, I think I went 1/8 in varying winds (I’m not a master at reading wind by any means). 450y on the 33% IPSC was no problem, I think I went 4/4.
Today I took the 6.5 CM out and the 6 ARC to see how they compared (shooting both off a bipod and bag). Got a first round hit on 12” steel at 780y and more steady 10mph wind with the 6.5 CM. Moved to the 33% IPSC and went 3/5 as the wind was starting to vary (pretty cool to hold 1 MIL and impact, feel wind die and get an impact with a 0.5 MIL hold). Grabbed the ARC and went 2/4 at 780y in the same wind (very similar holds, wind was a little calmer).
After the first day shooting off the tripod, I was a little concerned with the ARC, but today just confirmed for me that I need to do more tripod work at distance. The 6.5 CM gets to 780y with less drop (0.6 MIL, but the ARC has a 50y zero while the Creed has a 100y zero), 20% less wind drift, and 50% more energy. Both were very easy to make impacts with at this distance.
Really liking the 6 ARC for yotes and general distance shooting out to ~750y (as far as I’ve taken it). I’m very curious to find the limits of each system; I’ve not found it for either yet
ETA: I left the “easy button” at home - a Terminus Zeus QC with a 22” 6 CM barrel slinging factory 108’s at 2900fps (Mark8 3.5-25 TMR)
6 ARC Particulars
- 18” Proof barrel (Ti suppressor)
- Mark5 2-10 TMR
- Factory Hornady 108 ELD M @ 2560fps (likely shoot the 80 ELD VT as they become available)
- 18” Criterion SS barrel (Sandman S)
- Mark5 3.6-18 CCH
- Factory Norma 130 HPBT @ 2650fps
A few days back I took the 6 ARC to 780y in 10-20mph winds and bits were difficult. However, I was shooting off a tripod sitting so not totally a knock on the ARC. Target was a 33% IPSC target, I think I went 1/8 in varying winds (I’m not a master at reading wind by any means). 450y on the 33% IPSC was no problem, I think I went 4/4.
Today I took the 6.5 CM out and the 6 ARC to see how they compared (shooting both off a bipod and bag). Got a first round hit on 12” steel at 780y and more steady 10mph wind with the 6.5 CM. Moved to the 33% IPSC and went 3/5 as the wind was starting to vary (pretty cool to hold 1 MIL and impact, feel wind die and get an impact with a 0.5 MIL hold). Grabbed the ARC and went 2/4 at 780y in the same wind (very similar holds, wind was a little calmer).
After the first day shooting off the tripod, I was a little concerned with the ARC, but today just confirmed for me that I need to do more tripod work at distance. The 6.5 CM gets to 780y with less drop (0.6 MIL, but the ARC has a 50y zero while the Creed has a 100y zero), 20% less wind drift, and 50% more energy. Both were very easy to make impacts with at this distance.
Really liking the 6 ARC for yotes and general distance shooting out to ~750y (as far as I’ve taken it). I’m very curious to find the limits of each system; I’ve not found it for either yet
ETA: I left the “easy button” at home - a Terminus Zeus QC with a 22” 6 CM barrel slinging factory 108’s at 2900fps (Mark8 3.5-25 TMR)
Good feedback! I built my 6 ARC as a replacement for a 223 gasser and the 6 Creed bolt. I don' t expect it to outshine the 6 Creed in any way but if it can do 80% of what the 6 Creed does out to 800 then I will be a happy camper. I picked up a few hundred rounds of the 80 VT and I plan to get out to the range soon to get the rifle sighted in with them.
MidwayUSA had them, so did Joeboboutfitters. Not sure on current availlability.
Scheels. I've placed two orders with them. It looks like Midway USA has them as well but at $2/box more and they have a two box limit.
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120 more rounds of the 80 grain VT arrived today from Scheels. Hoping to get to the range tomorrow if the weather and my schedule cooperate.
80gr VT's grouped better than expected once suppressed and the rifle ran like a top, no feed or FTE issues, very happy.
108’s are right at 1 MOA or better for me but the 80’s were 2-2.5 MOA for me. ES on the 80’s was 70 with an average of 2860 out of my 18” proof SS.
I’ll foul the barrel a little more to see if the 80’s settle in (cleaned after the first 150 today before shooting). The pic below is shots 2-13 after cleaning. Final group was upper right. Followed up with a MOA group of 108’s an hour later (burned the box before I took a pic).
However, the 80’s out of my 22” 6 CM (proof SS) shot awesome; that barrel shoots really well too so I was happy with the 2 stacked 0.1 MIL above POA. 3144 fps on both those shots
I’ll foul the barrel a little more to see if the 80’s settle in (cleaned after the first 150 today before shooting). The pic below is shots 2-13 after cleaning. Final group was upper right. Followed up with a MOA group of 108’s an hour later (burned the box before I took a pic).
However, the 80’s out of my 22” 6 CM (proof SS) shot awesome; that barrel shoots really well too so I was happy with the 2 stacked 0.1 MIL above POA. 3144 fps on both those shots
Attachments
Are those the 80 eld-vt's? factory loads?
I finally found 400 of the 80 VT's instock (loose projectiles) & ordered them to try in the ARC. Hoping for 3050-3100 in the 22" 6ARC
The 62 VT's are pretty bad ass in my 18" Valk & accurate
Yes, factory 80 ELD VT's for both 6 ARC and Creed.
The 80's in the Creed are kinda cheating, with a +0.4 MIL zero at 100y I'm 1 MIL hold at 400y and 1.7 MIL at 500y (still over 2000 fps at 500y)
Yep crazy flat. Here's the 18" Valk zeroed @100. 400Y Per Strelok Pro. The 62 is pretty damn impressive.
This shows why I need 3100+ from the 80 vt's in the 6ARC. Hell the barrel is 4" longer & the Valk still might kick it's ass.
62VT = .199 G7
80VT = .206 G7
6ARC needs 3150 to hang with the Valk +-.1 mil to 950 Supersonic.
I built a 6ARC for my MDRX, absolutely love it. Zero regrets, in fact I might need to make another soon. Mine is a 20 inch, but if you want to know what is so great about it just read what I already wrote here:
This is why I never really understood everyone's excitement for the 6 ARC. The 22 and 6 Grendel had existed for years and if you played with them you knew the 22 version beat the 6mm version all day. Robert Whitley tried to make the 6mm version competitive with multiple versions. First the 6AR, then the 6AR improved, and then the 6 AR turbo 40* improved. The 22 cal bullets you can stuff in a 22 ARC/ Grendel/ Valk outclass the bullets you can fit in a mag in the 6ARC. 88gr vs 105? 17gr and .020" difference ain't much. 62 vs 80? 75 vs 90? It's like when I went from a 6 Creed where I was shooting 90gr TGKs at 3100fps to a 22 Creed to shoot 88's at 3150, lol. I was thinking, "Hmm that was kinda dumb". Some of these medium weight 6mm bullets and heavy 22 cal bullets are pretty close to each other. The difference is only really in the speed you can push them. In the case of the 22 ARC there is a decent speed difference over the 6 ARC.
Because 6ARC showed up in factory loaded form first. To the vast majority of the gun buying public, none of those wildcats you mentioned even exist.
Because very few people reload let alone play with custom barrels spun up for Wildcat calibers that require decent knowledge to properly load for. The mass majority of shooters want factory loaded ammo and factory chambered/built rifles from the major players. Wildcat shooters are a niche within a niche. And who wouldn’t want a small frame gasser that shoots flatter and often softer and with bigger pills than 223?
I pretty much completely lost interest in 6ARC when they released the print. 22ARC/Grendel is plainly superior and the handload are cheaper.
Sure, but it's available. With 6mm I can shoot bullets down in the 50s all the way up to 110ish.
Before the release of the 6ARC, the choices for a long(ish) range cartridge in an AR using factory ammunition were 223Rem/5.56Nato and 6.5 Grendel. Forget the wildcats and forget 22 ARC. They don't exist. The advantage of the 6.5 Grendel over the 223 is not in drop or drift, but that it brings 64% more mass (75 gr vs 123 gr) to the party while still having reasonable ballistics. The 6mm ARC has less drop and drift than either the 223 or the 6.5 (comparing the 108 ELD-M), while only being ~12% lighter (comparing 108 to 123).
The 22 ARC may be mo betta than all 3, but I still haven't seen ammuniton for it on any big box store shelves in this area. And, I'm looking- as I have a 224 Predator that I'd like to buy ammo for, instead of reloading for. So for me, the 22 ARC still doesn't exist.
The 22 ARC may be mo betta than all 3, but I still haven't seen ammuniton for it on any big box store shelves in this area. And, I'm looking- as I have a 224 Predator that I'd like to buy ammo for, instead of reloading for. So for me, the 22 ARC still doesn't exist.
You don't get it because it's not for you and that's ok, but it's far from silly.
I wonder what the difference in barrel life would be comparing 22ARC, 6mmARC, and 6.5G, using similar pressure and attempting to use similar BC's?
I haven't kept up on what a good aftermarket AR barrel is but I paid about $550 for a complete upper in 6mmFatRat about 5-6 years ago. I guess if a 22ARC got burned out in 1500 rounds that would discourage me.
I have close to 1000 out of my 6mmFatRat right now and hoping for at least 2500 rounds out of it.
I haven't kept up on what a good aftermarket AR barrel is but I paid about $550 for a complete upper in 6mmFatRat about 5-6 years ago. I guess if a 22ARC got burned out in 1500 rounds that would discourage me.
I have close to 1000 out of my 6mmFatRat right now and hoping for at least 2500 rounds out of it.
Wondering what kind of gas block you have? I have an Odin and the adjustment with the bolt doesn’t appear to be machine properly. Is it still letting or lets out gas even though it’s completely turned in and bottomed out to supposedly close off all Gas. I would look at the gas block as well, especially if it’s two barrels that aren’t shooting well.
Right now I’m looking at the 22 arc or 6ARC as a possibility. And I second that statement about bullet selection you can have lightweight to heavyweight varmint bullets to lightweight hunting ir heavyweight hunting long BC bullets in 6mm.. that’s something you just don’t get in the 22 caliber. for right now anyway. And I say that for right now because
I am + 100%sure that every major bullet manufacturer is scrambling for a heavy long varmint bullet, and a heavy long hunting round in 22 caliber that stay together in these hispeed 22 creedmoor barrels.. as once they perfect that then it’ll also work for the 22 gas gun calibers. ( I am aware of the very expensive lead bullets, but I’m talking about more economical lead core bullets.)
I am aware that Hornady has released the VT in 62 grain for 22 caliber and it is a very long bullet probably similar to a 75 eld . it is a devastating round.
I do not know however, if it will stay together in a 22 Creedmoor speed?
Given the bore ratio to case capacity, you should be seeing faster velocities from the larger bores, not slower.
You can shoot a 90gr faster from 6.5 Grendel than a 6mm AR/ARC.
You can shoot a 90gr faster from a 6mm AR/ARC than a .224 AR/ 22 ARC.
Conversely, a 90gr .224 tends to have a higher BC than a 90gr 6mm, which tends to have a higher BC than a 90gr 6.5mm.
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I’ve figured it out since. 3 different adjustable gas blocks did not work.
Standard gas block worked fine. Checked an old ballistic advantage one. Ran fine.
Just bolted a Forward Control Designs gas block on it, very tight fit, and after doing so, even one piece JP gas rings work in standard bcgs now …something that did not work previously either.
Factory 22 ARC ammo in 88gr is being reported at 2850 by consumers. Is 6 ARC 90gr ammo shown to be faster by consumers?
The hornady reloading manual has the same 2850 fps for 88-90 gr as a max, for gas guns.
And 3050 fps for bolt guns, because of the weak AR bolts.
And I reload for both 224 Valkyrie and 6mm ARC but only 108, 110, 112, 115 grs, in the 6 mm ARC.
The 224 Valkyrie runs 88gr bullets at 2850 fps in my 24" AR...funny.
The Valkyrie can run at slightly higher pressures because there is more steel surrounding the cartridge brass in the bolt head, in the AR.
They all do better in a bolt gun, as far as velocity, without the weak AR bolt constraints.
I know the idea that larger bore versions of the same cartridge can run faster with certain powders, but I haven't seen it in 6 ARC. Admittedly, I'm not invested in 6ARC tho so legitimately asking if this theory pans out in the real world comparison of these two cartridges.
I’m getting 2850 out of my 18” Proof with the factory 80 ELD VT’s in my 6 ARC
Why would you care, if your not interested, or "invested"?
It's not theory, its physics, when all factors involved are equal.
Just wasting my time?
Saying that, After I gave you the load data from Hornady, saying they are they are pretty close in an auto, with same barrel length, and in a bolt gun 6mm ARC is way ahead, because of handling more pressure, than the AR.
Confirmed by the above shooter.
It's easy to have velocity variations in the same caliber and barrel length, by 50 fps or more.
6mm ARC has less case capacity than 224 AR/22 ARC, which could even them out. You can amend my statement based on that for the 6mm and 22 variants since I’m used to 6mm AR data going back over the last decade+.
As a general rule though, as the bore diameter/volume decreases, the velocity for the same projectile weights decreases due to overbore choking the amount of pressure that can safely be relieved.
For example, factory 90gr TNT from Federal does 2900fps from my 17.6” Grendel, and 2700fps from the 12”. BC sucks compared to 90gr in 6mm and .224, but it sure loves to be punted out. If you made a streamlined 90gr 6.5mm with a secant ogive and long boat tail, it would be competitive with the others without needing to chase pressure.
75gr out of 22 Grendel is around 3100 pending barrel characteristics. I'm betting an 80gr ELDM is easily 2950-3000K without having to push past 60K psi
To me 22 arc is kinda a little overbore (of course 22 creed is even more), and 22 arc vs 6 arc is somewhat like 6 creed vs 6.5 creed. For decent barrel life and ballistic energy, 6 arc won't fade away (actually it will thrive) just like 6.5 creed that is still the mainstream and even military/police adopted it. 22 arc would definitely be a perfect varmint cartridge though, but beside that I doubt it has any further applications. 6 arc/6.5 creed/300 prc adopted by the government agencies is not for no reason. So I'm happy to keep my howa oryx 6 arc mini action (avg .6 moa) and ba 22" AR (avg 1.0 moa), and in the future when 22 arc factory ammo/rifle is sufficient in the market I would probably consider one for coyote hunting.
Agree completely. I have an 18” proof 6 arc gas gun that I shoot steel and varmints with frequently. Just got some property to build on and will likely get a cheap 6 arc bolt gun together as a “ranch rifle” of sorts. Will likely load lighter bullets in that and though about going 22 ARC for it, but I want the ability to put 100+ grain bullets in it for deer too when my daughters and nephews are old enough.
I have another 18” 6 arc gas gun in the safe waiting for a thermal. Had to sell that off to fund house stuff. Once I get all caught up I will probably make that 22 arc as it will be a dedicated night gun and flat is best there I found.
Hey all, I’m new to 6arc and looking to put a 18in barrel in a 556 upper I have on hand. My question is, what barrel is the best shooter? And what gas block/hand guard are you guys running? I’ve read that people have had accuracy issues out of BA 6arc barrels, but is that true? I’m looking to make this a quality small frame DMR topped with a Leupold Mark 5, and an atlas bipod. It’ll fill multiple roles from hunting coyotes and deer, to long range steel plinking. It’ll take me a few months to build, because currently I’m strapped for cash.
Any help is appreciated!
Any help is appreciated!
My 6 ARC BA barrel, in a factory Areo upper, was a poor performer with 2" to 2.5" for 5 shots at 100 yds.
I assembled an upper with Proof barrel and a few accuracy techniques and came away with a .5" 5 shot group shooter, at 100yds.
Scrapped the BA barrel and bought another Proof barrel, it too is a .5" shooter too....and sometimes much less.
I've had great success with Proof barrels.
I assembled an upper with Proof barrel and a few accuracy techniques and came away with a .5" 5 shot group shooter, at 100yds.
Scrapped the BA barrel and bought another Proof barrel, it too is a .5" shooter too....and sometimes much less.
I've had great success with Proof barrels.
How have the groups been? It’s tough for me to find video reviews on them.
