King, I like the sound of that report, will be going to the bench to test! btw, 32.2=2971 sd6 would work for me
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6mm Dasher
- Thread starter BoilerUP
- Start date
I took a huge gamble and bought 8 lbs of VV N140 to have as back up or replace my Varget load with no testing or good online data. Fortunately I think it worked out. I duplicated my Varget load but it had a little more bolt lift however this powder is very temperature stable.
Traditional load:
- Hawk Hill 26" barrel by Ryan Hunt (1000ish rounds). 32.6 grains of Varget with Lapua brass and a 105 Berger Hybrid Target. Typically around 2960 fps but today's average was 2945 at 68 degrees.
VV N140
31 gr = 2807 fps
31.5 gr = 2889 fps
31.8 gr = 2887 fps (?)
32.0 gr = 2906 fps
32.2 gr = 2918
32.4 gr = 2941
32.5 gr = 2943
32.5 gr = 2948
32.6 gr = 2959
I did a temperature stability test by placing three rounds of N140 at 32.5 grains and my Varget load of 32.6, both average 2945 fps, in the freezer for an hour.
Varget (2906, 2933, 2934) avg = 2924, ES 28. Average velocity difference from 68 deg to 30 deg is 17 fps.
N140 (2918, 2923, 2939) avg = 2930, ES 21. Average velocity difference from 68 deg to 30 deg is 15 fps.
Traditional load:
- Hawk Hill 26" barrel by Ryan Hunt (1000ish rounds). 32.6 grains of Varget with Lapua brass and a 105 Berger Hybrid Target. Typically around 2960 fps but today's average was 2945 at 68 degrees.
VV N140
31 gr = 2807 fps
31.5 gr = 2889 fps
31.8 gr = 2887 fps (?)
32.0 gr = 2906 fps
32.2 gr = 2918
32.4 gr = 2941
32.5 gr = 2943
32.5 gr = 2948
32.6 gr = 2959
I did a temperature stability test by placing three rounds of N140 at 32.5 grains and my Varget load of 32.6, both average 2945 fps, in the freezer for an hour.
Varget (2906, 2933, 2934) avg = 2924, ES 28. Average velocity difference from 68 deg to 30 deg is 17 fps.
N140 (2918, 2923, 2939) avg = 2930, ES 21. Average velocity difference from 68 deg to 30 deg is 15 fps.
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It’ll be interesting to see if it picks up speed over the new few range trips since I’ve only got 100ish rounds down the tube. Also will be interesting to see what happens when it get warmer out this season.King, I like the sound of that report, will be going to the bench to test! btw, 32.2=2971 sd6 would work for me
Youre going to pick up speed with more rounds down the barrel, and on 1xf brass. When i was using alpha brass, i picked up around 30+ fps going from virgin to 1xf with the same load.
It seems to have plateaued, but I know my other barrel did the same thing then pick up a tiny bit more around 150. I’ll have to keep that in mind and finish getting through my virgin brass before settle on my final load.
Question for you guys running alpha brass. I might be mis-remembering, but I thought I read here that you should lube the necks on virgin Alpha. Is this the case, and what would be the benefit? I just ran a quick pressure test and it showed pressure ~ 50 fps slower, and ~ 1 grain less than my current lapua load. Not too concerned, but figured I'd ask.
I just got 200 pcs and did a quick pressure test.
Barrel specs:
26" Bartlein 5R, RH gain twist (I'm a lefty) 1:8-7.3, .140 freebore and ~675 rounds down barrel. Freshly cleaned for test. 10 foulers shot prior to testing.
My current load is:
Lapua brass
112 MB
32.3 IMR 4166
CCI 450s
~ 2875 fps
My work up with Alpha brass went from 30.9 to 32.5 in .2gr incraments with CCI 450s and IMR 4166
I ran an expander through all necks, chamfered, and deburred.
30.9 - 2801
31.1 - 2817
31.3 - 2829 (faint ejector mark)
31.5 - 2831 (eject mark & sticky bolt)
31.7 - 2848 (ejector mark, semi sticky bolt)
at this point I stopped the test
I figure I will finish loaded new Alpha with 105s to get them once fired and revisit this test after
I just got 200 pcs and did a quick pressure test.
Barrel specs:
26" Bartlein 5R, RH gain twist (I'm a lefty) 1:8-7.3, .140 freebore and ~675 rounds down barrel. Freshly cleaned for test. 10 foulers shot prior to testing.
My current load is:
Lapua brass
112 MB
32.3 IMR 4166
CCI 450s
~ 2875 fps
My work up with Alpha brass went from 30.9 to 32.5 in .2gr incraments with CCI 450s and IMR 4166
I ran an expander through all necks, chamfered, and deburred.
30.9 - 2801
31.1 - 2817
31.3 - 2829 (faint ejector mark)
31.5 - 2831 (eject mark & sticky bolt)
31.7 - 2848 (ejector mark, semi sticky bolt)
at this point I stopped the test
I figure I will finish loaded new Alpha with 105s to get them once fired and revisit this test after
I know the few I didn’t run my expander through where very tight, so it might make sense to hit them with dry lube but I could be completely wrong.
Thanks, I will give that a try.
They didn't seem to seat overly hard, but I think my Coax masks alot of minor variance in feel
which batch of Alpha?
I bought some about a month ago.
did a 5x5 ladder and ended up at the same speed/charge as my 3x fired Lapua for both DTACs and 109 hybrid's
31.3-31.7gr 4166
CC1 450
I'd have to look when I get home. I got the last boxes Altus had about 1 week ago.
This was my best of the morning. Unfired Alpha with the 109 hybrid. Tl3 with rock creek PVA barrel 7 twist. Just over 400 rounds down the barrel. Bolt lift seemed fine although I have some slight ejector marking on all alpha brass I’ve used from 30.6-31.8 
. I did chamfer/debut and use some dry lube when seating bullets.
4 shots
31.8 grains of IMR 4166
CCI 450
. I did chamfer/debut and use some dry lube when seating bullets. 4 shots
31.8 grains of IMR 4166
CCI 450
Attachments
Interesting results from the 109 Hybrids this weekend for me:
- 26" MTU contour, 1:7.5", 4 groove IBI barrel
- 6 Dasher, .104" FB/.274 Neck
- 31.6gr Varget
- Lapua fire formed brass
- CCI 450
I was planning on doing a jump test, using the same powder charge I use for my Hornady 108's. I started at .020" off and was hoping to work back to .100" off with .020" increments, however, at 31.6gr/.020" off I was at 2965 ft/s and had a sticky bolt on 1/5 rounds (not where I want to be).
Gonna try a modified ladder at 30.5 - 31.5 gr to get a ballpark speed out of these things and try another jump test this weekend.
Josh
- 26" MTU contour, 1:7.5", 4 groove IBI barrel
- 6 Dasher, .104" FB/.274 Neck
- 31.6gr Varget
- Lapua fire formed brass
- CCI 450
I was planning on doing a jump test, using the same powder charge I use for my Hornady 108's. I started at .020" off and was hoping to work back to .100" off with .020" increments, however, at 31.6gr/.020" off I was at 2965 ft/s and had a sticky bolt on 1/5 rounds (not where I want to be).
Gonna try a modified ladder at 30.5 - 31.5 gr to get a ballpark speed out of these things and try another jump test this weekend.
Josh
A follow up to my post above, took 10 cases of Alpha, shot two 5 shot tests at 31.8, 32 grains of Varget, CCi 450. berger 105 Hybrid, speed was 2935 on the 32 grain groups, accuracy was very good for me and this CBI barrel. maybe slight sticky extraction on some 32 grain cases. Cases were prepped with inside/outside deburr and run thru neck mandrel to set tension at 1.5 thou. when loaded neck clearance 2 thou or just a bit more. .272 reamer.
second loading and firing of the 10 cases today. 32 of Varget again, speed up at 2946, accuracy very good, at 300 yards under .4 Moa. still a couple sticky cases. going to do some powder changing and test further.
Idahoorion
second loading and firing of the 10 cases today. 32 of Varget again, speed up at 2946, accuracy very good, at 300 yards under .4 Moa. still a couple sticky cases. going to do some powder changing and test further.
Idahoorion
@Shoots 700's
That was with the load I posted above. However I went to 105s with 31.3 grains and I’m getting under a 5 SD with a tighter grouping.
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Has anyone experimented with jumping the 109 Hybrids, similar to the PRB data showing 105 Hybrids like 0.060"+ jump?
Wondering if a longer freebore, essentially a 0.104" + 0.060" = 0.164" (or more) would be something worth pursuing. Obviously if you wanted to run the 105 Hybrids 0.010" off you'd run out of neck as the throat wore, but if you ran it with a jump the whole time you could either leave it as-is, or chase the jump to maintain it.
I just re-read the PRB articles on jump testing, and it is very interesting. Especially the data from top shooters and gunsmiths, like where Wade Stuteville said he has shot 105 Hybrids starting at 0.080" jump and just left it untouched for the life of a 6x47L barrel, essentially a 0.080" - 0.130" jump over the life. With the short neck of a Dasher not letting you stay above the neck/shoulder junction like on a BRA or GT, I'm thinking about what freebore I'd want if I got a reamer or barrel made.
I have some 109s and 105s to test in my 6GT, along with 110 A-Tips. That has a longer neck and a 0.120" freebore, so I think I've got the room to seat them deep without issue.
Wondering if a longer freebore, essentially a 0.104" + 0.060" = 0.164" (or more) would be something worth pursuing. Obviously if you wanted to run the 105 Hybrids 0.010" off you'd run out of neck as the throat wore, but if you ran it with a jump the whole time you could either leave it as-is, or chase the jump to maintain it.
I just re-read the PRB articles on jump testing, and it is very interesting. Especially the data from top shooters and gunsmiths, like where Wade Stuteville said he has shot 105 Hybrids starting at 0.080" jump and just left it untouched for the life of a 6x47L barrel, essentially a 0.080" - 0.130" jump over the life. With the short neck of a Dasher not letting you stay above the neck/shoulder junction like on a BRA or GT, I'm thinking about what freebore I'd want if I got a reamer or barrel made.
I have some 109s and 105s to test in my 6GT, along with 110 A-Tips. That has a longer neck and a 0.120" freebore, so I think I've got the room to seat them deep without issue.
I’ve not tested it but I’m in the same boat as you in regards to the PRB data, very curious. I’ve always run a 104 freebore, jumped 20 thou with 105s and never chased it over the life of the barrel. Basically because it just shoots. But maybe I pull the barrel sooner than I should rather than re-doing load development and getting it to shoot with a different jump. I’d be curious to hear more data from people with the dasher
I use a .104 freebore and 105 Hybrids. I jump them .020 starting and also don't chase the lands. My take is that I'll be jumping about .100" by the time I take the barrel off and all the way from a .020 to a .100 jump the hybrids shoot good. If I started at .060 I'd be jumping them almost .150 by the time the barrel is used up.
I really think the ideal freebore for a 105 hybrid is probably real close to .130", but I already have the .104 freebore reamer and all my barrels have shot great. If I get a new reamer in the future I'll try .130".
I haven't tested the 109 Hybrids. I'm having a great time with the 105's. Anyone needing to offload 105's to buy 109's hit me up. Haha.
I really think the ideal freebore for a 105 hybrid is probably real close to .130", but I already have the .104 freebore reamer and all my barrels have shot great. If I get a new reamer in the future I'll try .130".
I haven't tested the 109 Hybrids. I'm having a great time with the 105's. Anyone needing to offload 105's to buy 109's hit me up. Haha.
Not to sidetrack Sam's question, but does anyone have good data on neck thickness between unturned, fireformed lapua brass and Alpha Dasher brass? I'm thinking about using necked down Alpha brass for a 22 Dasher, but I'm not sure if I need to alter neck clearances.
Good questions Sam! I did a jump test from 0.020" to 0.100" with my .104" FB Dasher over the last few weeks. What I have found is that I have a seating depth node in the .070-.090" range, while still getting great speed and deviation numbers! Right now I am looking at fine tuning it a little more based on what I am seeing from reloading mentors, but I would not hesitate to jump them further than you'd expect, or run a long FB reamer!
Josh
Thanks for the info Josh! I've read through this thread and noticed you have been willing to test different jumps. Did you ever end up re-throating your worn out Dasher barrel for 112/115gr bullets?
I need to do the test on my own with my current GT barrel, but I'm curious as to what others are seeing. Since reamers are pricey and take so long to get, I'd like to get it right, especially if I'm going to try an "against the grain" starting point for Hybrids.
No worries Sam and I am always up to try stuff in the pursuit of accuracy and science lol! I did rethroat my old Dasher barrel with a longer freebore and tested a few things. IIRC we ended up adding a total of 0.180" extra freebore to my shot out old .104" FB barrel and tried some different rounds.
Long story short, we added too much freebore and that old barrel was too worn out (2750-ish rounds when we started testing) to get good data/speed. I believe that a Dasher with a .150-.200" freebore would be a good option as long as you are not running a bullet with a shorter bearing surface, which is what the Hybrids have unfortunately. Additional to that, the 115's are great bullets, but I think that they're a little much in the Dasher unless you really run that freebore out and push them hard. All of this is my opinion, obviously, and you may see different results
Josh
Nice! Regular Dasher reamer with 0.104” freebore? My only concern is having a great jump but the bullet is way past the neck/shoulder junction. Maybe Dashers never get donuts so there’s no need to worry?
Side point on donuts, I read some interesting threads on accurate shooter where mandrel sizing the ID was brought up. The thought was that using the mandrel would push the donut out and negate the need to seat the bullets ahead of it (and not have to ID ream). Turns out brass springs back on a donut same as the neck, so guys were seeing the donut remain regardless.
I haven't run a 0.104" fb for about 4 barrels now
ideally, you want at least 0.120" fb
currently running 0.120", 0.135" and getting a new barrel with 0.140"
Question for the dasher guys.
I cannot seem to get my concentricity under control. My total runout is around .004-.006”. With the same reloading process, my 308 loads are 0.001” max total runout. Here is my process.
Alpha dasher brass, Berger 105 Hybrid.
decap
tumble
Anneal with AMP
FL resize with Whidden
Tumble to remove lube
Run through Sinclair mandrel (0.002”)
Prime
Dip in dry lube
Seat using LE Wilson Chamber die and Arbor press.
I seat 0.075” off the lands. When I seat the bullet, I can feel a bump towards the end. I guess this is when the end of the bearing surface meets the neck-shoulder fold. Im guessing this is what makes my runout funky.
I cannot seem to get my concentricity under control. My total runout is around .004-.006”. With the same reloading process, my 308 loads are 0.001” max total runout. Here is my process.
Alpha dasher brass, Berger 105 Hybrid.
decap
tumble
Anneal with AMP
FL resize with Whidden
Tumble to remove lube
Run through Sinclair mandrel (0.002”)
Prime
Dip in dry lube
Seat using LE Wilson Chamber die and Arbor press.
I seat 0.075” off the lands. When I seat the bullet, I can feel a bump towards the end. I guess this is when the end of the bearing surface meets the neck-shoulder fold. Im guessing this is what makes my runout funky.
I did a test similar to @MDT_Josh (jumping from .020-.120) , and I'm jumping the 109's .060". I talked to a buddy that is jumping them the same in his Dasher as well. I also ran the 110 Atips for a little while last year and jumped them .110".
Have you tried backing the seating depth off so it doesn’t go past the neck/shoulder junction and see if that cures it?
I had a Whidden sizing die in 6.5x47L that would banana cases 0.004 - 0.006” right out of the die. They’d go from 0.000” fired to terrible once sized. Got rid of the Whidden die and never had that issue again. Just something else to check, maybe the runout is in the case and not the bullet seating.
I use custom-honed Forster dies (FL non-bushing), only issue is the wait time. If you're using a mandrel post-sizing, you don't need the custom honed neck diameter, but the dies will end up working the neck a little more than necessary.
I do a similar setup; off-the-shelf Forster FL die and a sinclair mandrel (2 operations). My run out, which I am realizing is important with the long jump, is .001-.003" for match ammo. Anything over .003" will be separated and kept aside for practice.
Josh
anyone have much experience with Alpha brass? 31.8 Varget 105 Hybrids showed pressure signs and heavy bolt lift today. Cases has been loaded 3x. Didnt show pressure sign @ 2nd firing.
Do you have any marks on the case head, I had a similar issue but it was due to bumping the shoulder to far and allowing the case to slam into the bolt face.
Okay, That’s a little weird that it happened on the third firing and nothing before, so that sorta rules out a brass prep issue unless something magically changed. I ended up contacting alpha directly with what I was experiencing and send them over a whole bunch of measurements to compare to their numbers. In my case it seemed that I bumped the shoulder back .004 instead of .002 which caused just enough movement to be an issue.
Im going to try Lapua brass. What is the best method to form a dasher? Hydro, false shoulder, load and shove? I would like the best possible product. Time is not a problem.
all are the same if done properly
for your pressure issue,
if your primers look ok, but you are getting ejector swipes and hard bolt lift.
it’s likely your sizing die is too large for your chamber.
common problem with cases that have minimal taper and have no sammi standard for chambers/does
primers are flat and raised around the firing pin. when I chamber a round with a stripped bolt, feels the same as without a round in the chamber. If sizer is too big I would feel a resistance right?
Load 30 thou long into the lands, 30 grains of Varget, jam and shoot. Accurate and good forming. I split one case in 400.
if you are seeing flat primers, then you are definitely over pressure.
and no, you can have a smooth bolt close with brass that isn’t sized enough, and then get a stiff bolt after firing.
you verify by checking the base diameter of
virgin brass vs. fired brass vs. sized brass
I am officially a fan of the Dasher kool-aid! I spent the last couple months fireforming 500 pieces of brass and finally got around to some load development.
This is actually a 4 round group at 100 yards with 32.0gr of Varget(Magneto didn't register the first shot). You can also see the SD's and velocity's of my small ladder test.
Berger 105 Hybrid
0.060" off the lands
CCI 450
1x fired Lapua BR brass
0.002" Shoulder bump
.267 bushing in Redding S die (Expander ball removed, did not run a mandrel thru either)
This is actually a 4 round group at 100 yards with 32.0gr of Varget(Magneto didn't register the first shot). You can also see the SD's and velocity's of my small ladder test.
Berger 105 Hybrid
0.060" off the lands
CCI 450
1x fired Lapua BR brass
0.002" Shoulder bump
.267 bushing in Redding S die (Expander ball removed, did not run a mandrel thru either)
