Decided to shoot PRS next season and after hanging out at a few matches I realized my 6.5 CM with a carbon barrel isn’t the best choice (really starts opening up after 9 rounds), so over the winter l’m gonna build/buy a new rifle. After a ton of research it looks like the 6mm’s are dominating so I think the 6 Creedmoor would probably be the best fit for me, but before I drop a ton of cash I figured I’d ask a few more questions. The biggest limiting factor is I don’t reload and with work schedules I can’t see it happening any time soon, that pretty much leaves out the 6BRA, Dasher and GT. The 6BR has extremely limited factory loads and that makes me want to shy away from it. Is there anything else I should consider before I buy?
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6mm Migraine
- Thread starter blacklab1
- Start date
Nothing wrong with 6 creed for PRS, just not much barrel life. But if you’re paying to shoot factory ammo anyway, paying for new barrels shouldn’t be an issue. MTU or Proof Competition Contour, 26-27”, get that weight out front where it belongs.
I just picked up the RPR Custom Shop in 6mm Creedmoor. It reliable shoots at about .5 with factory Hornady 108 ELD-M ammo. With hand loads I got that down to .4 and one .31 group. But with factory ammo being that accurate, why reload?
Bud's had it for $1803, free shipping. I just paid NV sales tax.
Bud's had it for $1803, free shipping. I just paid NV sales tax.
A barrel swap for the 6.5 isn’t out of the question, but I’m told the 6mm‘s have less recoil and PRS is a recoil management game.
What rifle is your 6.5 creed in?
If I was shooting factory I’d stay with 6.5 creed unless there is a 6mm offering that’s cheaper to shoot.
If your willing to swap barrels and have an action thays already quality your probably looking at a chassis change along with the barrel to get the rifle to balance.
With weight and a good brake 6.5 creed doesn’t have much recoil. Honestly I shot my 6.5 better then my 6GT for awhile due to the better ballistics of the 140 grain going the same speed.
If I was shooting factory I’d stay with 6.5 creed unless there is a 6mm offering that’s cheaper to shoot.
If your willing to swap barrels and have an action thays already quality your probably looking at a chassis change along with the barrel to get the rifle to balance.
With weight and a good brake 6.5 creed doesn’t have much recoil. Honestly I shot my 6.5 better then my 6GT for awhile due to the better ballistics of the 140 grain going the same speed.
Don’t believe everything you are told.
PRS is a “execute fundamentally excellent shots quickly” game and a “spot your own impacts and adjust as needed” game. Recoil management falls under “excellent fundamentals” (see first sentence). A 22 pound 6.5 CM with a brake is not so much more recoil than a 22 pound 6CM with a brake that it will be worth a new rifle. Get a 26”, heavy barrel, and work on your fundamentals.
It’s one of those new Aero’s with a proof barrel that’s balanced right in front of the mag well and has a little bastard break. It shoots fine for 9 or 10 rounds but then starts to open up. By the 15th round it’s almost 2 MOA. (Don’t mind my handwriting….. penmanship was never my strong point)
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you have a great set up already. Honestly I would go compete with what you have at some local matches to burn that barrel out and then replace with whatever contour caliber you want.
Or just like mentioned above. Move to a 26” MTU, M24, Proof Competition contour now and have both options.
I would shoot what you have for now. Most PRS stages are 10 possible shots with a few occasionally being 12. Since you're starting out in this game, you will likely not get all the shots off in the amount of time available. Then you can let the barrel cool between stages, which is usually about 20-30 minutes. I would seriously look into ordering a heavy contour (Proof comp, MTU, Heavy Varmint or straight profile) prefit barrel and install that when the current barrel gets shot out. Since you don't reload, that's going to narrow the choices you have for cartridge, but either of the creedmoors will work.
Since the Aero Solus uses the same prefit specs as the Zermatt Origin, this is the easy button. If you are LE/MIL, Paul at Evolved Ballistics can get you a good price. I'm not affiliated, just a satisfied customer.
https://evolvedballistics.com/barre...5-creedmoor-26-1-8-twist-competition-contour/
Gonna need a lot of weight to get where it needs to be. You’ll want your rifle to balance slightly forward of center of your barricade bag, which for a Schmedium or MFC means 4-5” in front of the front action screw.
I’m not a top level shooter, I’m usually in the high 70’s to 80’s when my rifle is squared away and I’m not asking smoked barrels to hold on too long, but I CAN see the difference in recoil in the scope between my 6 creed at 3165fps and my Dasher at 2800, both with 105H’s. There ARE dudes out there managing recoil exceptionally well on 6.5’s - I’m not one of them. I’ll take every advantage I can design for myself, so I’ll always shoot 6’s for PRS. With an underweight Aero rifle, especially with balance too far back like it is now, I’d drown with a 6.5creed.
If you're going to be shooting factory ammo, 6CM is a solid choice (you could also go 6GT, just tougher to score ammo as easily).
The tales of terrible barrel life are way overstated/overrated with 6CM (mostly by guys who haven't had a 6CM since ~10 years ago when it was the norm to run them 3100+fps and load them right up into the lands with little jump and/or use a shorter-than-SAAMI freebore, or have just read too much BS on forums).
At factory speeds with factory bullet-jumps, and a SAAMI chamber with standard .183" freebore (using say the Hornady 108ELDM stuff, which usually runs ~2900-2950fps jumping ~35-40 thou out of the box) you'd more than likely be looking at ~1500-2000rds of useable life for matches, ~2500rds for practice.
Since those Aero actions will accept Origin prefits, I'd recommend a Proof SS prefit from here: https://frontrangeprecisionllc.com/
The tales of terrible barrel life are way overstated/overrated with 6CM (mostly by guys who haven't had a 6CM since ~10 years ago when it was the norm to run them 3100+fps and load them right up into the lands with little jump and/or use a shorter-than-SAAMI freebore, or have just read too much BS on forums).
At factory speeds with factory bullet-jumps, and a SAAMI chamber with standard .183" freebore (using say the Hornady 108ELDM stuff, which usually runs ~2900-2950fps jumping ~35-40 thou out of the box) you'd more than likely be looking at ~1500-2000rds of useable life for matches, ~2500rds for practice.
Since those Aero actions will accept Origin prefits, I'd recommend a Proof SS prefit from here: https://frontrangeprecisionllc.com/
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It is but a lot of shooters are moving back to 6.5 and .25 cal. Theres a lot of advantages to bigger heavier bullets and not much of a recoil penalty with all the weight kits and brakes. Personally id just rebarrel to a heavy 6.5 7.5 twist and shoot 6.5cm. 6 cm is a good option to but barrel life sucks.
I make prefits for the Solus that shoot lights out. I can make you a drop in barrel for it in anything you want and ship it. A local gunsmith can swap the barrel for you in a few minutes. Or you can buy a barrel vise and action wrench, then swap it yourself. You don't need a new rifle.
I wouldn't be against building you a second rifle but I would be remiss to tell you that was necessary instead of just swapping a barrel in the existing gun and you're good to go. If you want to shoot factory ammo I have a 6 Creedmoor reamer that absolutely hammers the Hornady 108/103/110 class factory ammo, easily competitive in PRS.
www.patriotvalleyarms.com
Almost everyone in PRS reloads. If you don't you better have very deep pockets or expect to suffer performance wise.
There is a resurgence of 6.5 creed. I shot both 6.5CM and 6GT this season. This is due to a few reasons. Most notably 105 and 109 hybrid shortage but for high level shooters who can see every shot well, it provides better feedback on misses and hits on plates, for corrections. Also makes hits easier to see at long range so you arent losing points to non calls.
Here is the run down. Guys are shooting 6mm for a bunch of reasons. When I say 6mm , I mean 6mm BR, Dasher predominately. There are guys shooting 6 creed and 6x47, but they are MUCH more finicky to load for, and its pointless to run them when you can run a more efficient cartridge (less case capacity, higher fill percentage) like the BR class.
If you don't reload it comes down to how much money you have and can spend. You can still shoot GT , Dasher, BRA, BR, but you will be paying $2.5-3 per round for premium match ammo from one of the custom ammo manufactures. If you can afford it, you can sell the lapua/alpha brass back to get some of your cost out of it.
Otherwise 6 creed and 6.5cm factory ammo is your best bet. Depending on how much you want to spent, you are looking at $1.25-2.50 per round for good match ammo. 6 creed will be easier, as it has less recoil and will shoot much flatter, but will also give you less time to see your shots and will burn out barrels much faster. With factory 6 creed around 3050, I would expect to pull my barrel around 12-1500 shots. With factory 6.5cm, you are looking at 2650 to 2900 or so fps. I would expect to get 2500-3000 before you need to pull the barrel.
For reference, you can reload top tier ammo using the best components (Alpha/Lapua brass. H4350/Varget/VV, 105/109 hybrids, #450s) for about .80 cpr if you factor in 10 firings on the brass before you loose it. You will also end up with a significantly better shooting load, Sub 5 SD and 15 ES is the norm with good components and a good reloading process using good equipment).
I think I will have shot about 2800 rounds of centerfire in PRS matches this year. That is at the venue, not including practice days. I practice with .223 because its is much cheaper and don't want to burn up my match components. The ammo that best compares to what I am shooting (but still not near as good, closer to 10-15 SD) is about $44 a box or $2.20 per round. Compared to my match loads that would be an increase almost $4,000 to shoot factory ammo that is no where near as good. Then you have to factor in reloading equipment in time, but yo can see after a year or two, even with the best reloading equipment money can buy, it pays for itself.
So to circle back, especially if you are a newer shooter just learning, I would do 6.5CM and find some decent factory ammo or $25-30 a box. The Normal Golden tiger 143gr is a good one, especially at the $22 a box we were paying earlier this year. Shoot out the barrel and then decide what you want next. I don't think going to 6 creed is going to be a huge advantage, especially with a 22+ lb gun. Some of my best scores this year were shooting factory 6.5CM ammo, not my custom 6 gt loads.
If you start to get better and think a change will net you more points, then spend the money on good custom 6mm BR class reloads, sell the brass and rock out. Its not going to be be cheap but it may be your only option if you dont reload.
There is also this stuff, which was the old prime load. They have about 40 boxes left, may be worth snatching up. https://www.gmansportingarms.com/pr...point-boat-tail-hpbt-20-bx-10-cs?asaid=as0004
Ive been getting 6.5 CM Hornady American Gunner 140 from GunMagWarehouse for about a buck around. REALLY fast turn around. Great for practice. Then for any critical application I switch to Hornady 140 ELD. Very little difference out to about 700. I tried several different manufacturers and the only one that was as accurate was the Federal GGM and its more expensive.
I shot that my first season of PRS, before my reloading room was setup. It chronoed really bad, Super high ES/SD, not to mention the BC variation really showed at distances past 600. For plinking its fine, but not reliable enough for LR practice or matches. One i switched to Lapua brass with Berger 130s, everything tighened up significantly and my hit % shot up.
My suggestion would be. First What is the best selection of the type of ammo you are looking for and availability? Not taking into consideration the cartridge or caliber. This week it may be 6mm but remember last week it was 6.5. What will it be next week? Then get the gun that matches it. There are leaders and followers.
NDR
@blacklab1
Can I ask if you know how solid your fundamentals are? Do you know/believe that the last three shot group you shot was fired with as much control as the first group? How many rounds have your shot with your current 6.5?
I’m just asking.
Can I ask if you know how solid your fundamentals are? Do you know/believe that the last three shot group you shot was fired with as much control as the first group? How many rounds have your shot with your current 6.5?
I’m just asking.
I’m by no means a top tier shooter but I think my fundamentals are fair. I’ve shot mostly 3 gun and USPSA for the past 10 to 15 years and started with .22 in MARS and a few F class matches a couple years back. I’m positive it’s the barrel warning up, I tried it a couple times with the same results…..the only reason I started to experiment with it was because of the lack of carbon barrels at matches and most people telling me the same thing, their not for PRS. I heard people saying that they opened up when they got warm before put it together but I thought it was just a bunch of bull, now I know better. To answer your question a little better I probably only have 300ish rounds on that particular rifle but 1000’s of rounds down range with my other rifles. On a good pre Covid 3 gun weekend it was up to 1000 rounds total for 2 matches, 250-300 of those were rifle out to 500 yards.
Cool. I just saw everyone jumping on the new barrel thing, which I agree with by the way, and wanted to make sure to clear up two things. First was your experience, since I’ve seen less experienced guys that start to lose it after the first few shots. It’s largely a matter of correct practice. I took a while to both realize that and change my understanding.
Second was to make sure that your barrel was telling you right.
Third, I’ve got both 6mm and 6.5 (via .260 Rem) and like both. In your circumstance and from my conservative perspective, I’d get a good M24/MTU barrel or heavy varmint as recommended a couple/few times already, slap it on and go shooting. In my small insignificant opinion, fundamentals and practice > smaller caliber.
So just my thoughts but I feel like the way to go is to either stick with the 6.5 Creed but get a steel barrel OR wait until wither 6GT is on shelves everywhere or until you can reload to go to one of the smaller case 6mms (GT, Dasher, BR, BRA).
For the 6.5 Creed, as others have said, muzzle breaks, weights, and shooting technique can really help you manage recoil enough to see that splash. Great thing about the MPA is there are lots of great options for weights. I run their full weight kit, side rails, and Grey Ops weights that fit in the side rails. If you end up doing that I highly recommend building a practice barricade and getting a DFAT or setting up some place where you can dry fire practice. Moving a heavy rifle around can take working up to and practice. I lost some muscle after a knee injury at the end of last summer and when I shot my first match this year I was SLOW moving my heavy rig around. Became a good reason to start lifting weights again. Now I'm rambling...
6mm Creed is a great round. Probably recoils just a bit less. But I feel like when you're starting out the 6.5 offers a better variety of affordable options. You won't burn through barrels as quickly. Also whoever said you have to reload to be competitive is wrong and even if they are right as a beginner you have a lot of improvement to make before your ammo is your limiting factory. I'm one of the weird people who enjoys reloading but it's another rabbit hole/money pit to climb into but if you don't have the time for it yet, I'd budget that limited time towards practicing. To that end check out the comment in this post made by gconnoyer. He's the top ranked shooter in our local PRS series. At this point he almost exclusively dry fire practices or shoots matches. Live fire practice is great and useful alos, but if you're limited on time 15-20 minutes 3 days a week of dry fire can really help you improve.
www.snipershide.com
For the 6.5 Creed, as others have said, muzzle breaks, weights, and shooting technique can really help you manage recoil enough to see that splash. Great thing about the MPA is there are lots of great options for weights. I run their full weight kit, side rails, and Grey Ops weights that fit in the side rails. If you end up doing that I highly recommend building a practice barricade and getting a DFAT or setting up some place where you can dry fire practice. Moving a heavy rifle around can take working up to and practice. I lost some muscle after a knee injury at the end of last summer and when I shot my first match this year I was SLOW moving my heavy rig around. Became a good reason to start lifting weights again. Now I'm rambling...
6mm Creed is a great round. Probably recoils just a bit less. But I feel like when you're starting out the 6.5 offers a better variety of affordable options. You won't burn through barrels as quickly. Also whoever said you have to reload to be competitive is wrong and even if they are right as a beginner you have a lot of improvement to make before your ammo is your limiting factory. I'm one of the weird people who enjoys reloading but it's another rabbit hole/money pit to climb into but if you don't have the time for it yet, I'd budget that limited time towards practicing. To that end check out the comment in this post made by gconnoyer. He's the top ranked shooter in our local PRS series. At this point he almost exclusively dry fire practices or shoots matches. Live fire practice is great and useful alos, but if you're limited on time 15-20 minutes 3 days a week of dry fire can really help you improve.
How do you practice for PRS?
I'm really curious how many of you guys go about practicing for PRS competition. I was speaking with a few of the top shooters at my last match and was told by one of them he shoots around 8,000 rounds a year in practice and another guy said he was well over double that. Well that's just great...
www.snipershide.com
I watched someone run a match at The Arena using a CF 6.5 CM stick... wish I could remember the gent's name or that of the match. Not optimal, but certainly doable. Worth keeping in mind: there's a difference between "I will shoot PRS next year" and "I will compete for regional and national match wins in PRS next year." There is absolutely nothing wrong with running what you have now and learning to be both a better shooter and gathering the information required to make better choices about what gear you want to run IF you decide PRS is the game for you.
I jokingly said elsewhere that 6.5 CM remains a great choice for people that prefer to make the first shot count versus a slightly faster follow-up on their misses. I was riffing off something Frank said, words to the effect of "too many shooters don't bother with a good wind call or hold, they just send it and correct."
PRS has, from my lay perspective, progressed to the point where top-level shooters have very few (and sometimes no) misses in a match. In combination with very heavy rifles and purpose-built muzzle devices, there's a choice to make concerning recoil versus wind drift. You're not necessarily wrong for choosing wind drift... especially if you can still spot your own shots because you're running a 25 lb rifle with a brake.
Reminds me a bit of when liter bikes got really big back in like 2009 and displaced a LOT of 600cc bike purchases... one of the bike mags did a 1000/600 comparo, lapping 600s and 1000s at Willow Springs (I think). Same riders, same day... the less skilled riders were faster on the 600s because they were easier to ride at the edge (or closer to the edge) with ~105 bhp compared to the 180+ bhp on the liter bikes. The pro choice isn't always the right regular joe choice.
ETA, 20 lb gun:
6 CM recoil, 108 grain @ 2950 fps: 4.52 ft-lbf (energy), 3.81 fps (velocity)
6.5 CM recoil, 140 grain @ 2750 fps: 5.71 ft-lbf, 4.29 fps
That recoil velocity is comparable to a 11-12 lb .223 - not exactly severe. ;-)
I jokingly said elsewhere that 6.5 CM remains a great choice for people that prefer to make the first shot count versus a slightly faster follow-up on their misses. I was riffing off something Frank said, words to the effect of "too many shooters don't bother with a good wind call or hold, they just send it and correct."
PRS has, from my lay perspective, progressed to the point where top-level shooters have very few (and sometimes no) misses in a match. In combination with very heavy rifles and purpose-built muzzle devices, there's a choice to make concerning recoil versus wind drift. You're not necessarily wrong for choosing wind drift... especially if you can still spot your own shots because you're running a 25 lb rifle with a brake.
Reminds me a bit of when liter bikes got really big back in like 2009 and displaced a LOT of 600cc bike purchases... one of the bike mags did a 1000/600 comparo, lapping 600s and 1000s at Willow Springs (I think). Same riders, same day... the less skilled riders were faster on the 600s because they were easier to ride at the edge (or closer to the edge) with ~105 bhp compared to the 180+ bhp on the liter bikes. The pro choice isn't always the right regular joe choice.
ETA, 20 lb gun:
6 CM recoil, 108 grain @ 2950 fps: 4.52 ft-lbf (energy), 3.81 fps (velocity)
6.5 CM recoil, 140 grain @ 2750 fps: 5.71 ft-lbf, 4.29 fps
That recoil velocity is comparable to a 11-12 lb .223 - not exactly severe. ;-)
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OP do whatever you want here. Just listen to the guys telling you there are options. Its really up to you to make them work. You can go a number of different ways. One thing I will say is don't get stuck on 140gr bullet weight if you shoot 6.5.
A strange turn of events happened in the past week. A guy I haven’t seen in a while posted a Terminus Zeus QC with a 6.5 barrel and low round count for sale here on the hide. After talking for awhile I got it for a good price, so I’ll probably sell the Aero and as my experience with PRS grows the Zeus can grow with me. After I get a few matches under my belt I may start to experiment with the 6CM, 6GT, or whatever the popular flavor is that month, or if I’m doing good with the 6.5 I’ll just stick with that. It just seemed like the best avenue, if I do change calibers and don’t care for the new one its easy enough to switch it back to the 6.5 and sell the other barrel. I will be spending a few months on the couch though when the boss lady sees the withdrawal from the account…..I hope it was the right move.
I am about to get out of the 6.5 Creedmoor business. Nothing wrong with the Creedmoor and I am really hesitant about my decision. Its just so much easier to be shooting Precision with one round rather than always trying to keep sufficient rounds available in two different calibers. I do find that it is easier to hit with the GT, but the 6.5 does have some specific advantages.
For one, components always seem to be easier to find. Also, seeing and spotting hits and misses is again much easier. of course the the higher BC’s of the bullets do make for easier wind calls.
Taking my time making this decision but just this week, our son decided he did not want the 6.5 rifle I am selling and I was holding off on everything until he made up his mind. Now, it looks like its gonna be a sale day soon. Last decision, to I go with local consignment with the one rifle I am selling or do I try online sales one more time.
In a way, I believe the 6.5 is a great rifle / caliber to start off with. But it should be in a way that future options are open.
For one, components always seem to be easier to find. Also, seeing and spotting hits and misses is again much easier. of course the the higher BC’s of the bullets do make for easier wind calls.
Taking my time making this decision but just this week, our son decided he did not want the 6.5 rifle I am selling and I was holding off on everything until he made up his mind. Now, it looks like its gonna be a sale day soon. Last decision, to I go with local consignment with the one rifle I am selling or do I try online sales one more time.
In a way, I believe the 6.5 is a great rifle / caliber to start off with. But it should be in a way that future options are open.
I tried a 6 creedmoor for exactly 1 match. Not enough difference in full-house loads vs. 6.5 creedmoor to justify the lack of splash on/near target IMO/IME. I swapped to 6mm ARC and did notice a significant drop in felt recoil.
YMMV, but if I were in your shoes (not reloading), I'd build a 20-23lb 6.5 Creedmoor with a decent brake.
YMMV, but if I were in your shoes (not reloading), I'd build a 20-23lb 6.5 Creedmoor with a decent brake.
I thought about what you said, that there’s a difference between shooting in PRS and competing in PRS. I’m one of those people whose just going to shoot PRS, I don’t think I have the God given talent to be competitive and the time required for practice is equivalent to a full time job and I already have a full time job. I like to shoot to escape reality for a while and hang around with like minded people. I have realistic expectations of my abilities. As I learn more I’ll expand my arsenal of equipment……be prepared to answer a lot more questions.
This is exactly how you should be. You’ll have a good time just like you expect. I long ago realized I didn’t have a drive to be the best, but I like to compete and I like the friends I meet while I do it. I’m comfortable just doing what I’m doing.I thought about what you said, that there’s a difference between shooting in PRS and competing in PRS. I’m one of those people whose just going to shoot PRS, I don’t think I have the God given talent to be competitive and the time required for practice is equivalent to a full time job and I already have a full time job. I like to shoot to escape reality for a while and hang around with like minded people. I have realistic expectations of my abilities. As I learn more I’ll expand my arsenal of equipment……be prepared to answer a lot more questions.
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