6mm PRC

[Chauncymayne]

I have been doing some looking around across different forums and sites to see what kind of loads folks are running on a 6mm PRC and haven’t had much luck, especially with light weight bullets.

Planning on running solids, currently thinking 88 grain *Cutting Edge MTH* in a 7.5 twist. Anybody have any suggestion on powder types, charges, and what kind of velocity they are getting?

Brand of Brass being used would be great to know as well.

Thinking I need solids because I don’t want to worry about throwing jackets on bullets in a twist that fast, as well as hoping to have that better BC bullet in the solid. (I don’t plan on getting a slower twist barrel, I am just getting an old 6GT barrel rechambered for something fun that goes the speed of light — 3700 FPS+).

Thank you in advance!

*Edit* - Meant Cutting Edge 88 Grain Solid not Flatline.

 

[Surdez1994]

Have a custom reamer on the way now for a 6 prc sherman improved. Will be running a 7.5 twist Bartlein carbon fiber and a 1:8 proof carbon fiber. I primarily plan on shooting 105-109 bergers.

Kinport peak rifle will have that reamer once my barrels are chambered.

No data yet, obviously, but im hoping for 34-3500 without pressure but we will see

 

[Surdez1994]

Have a custom reamer on the way now for a 6 prc sherman improved. Will be running a 7.5 twist Bartlein carbon fiber and a 1:8 proof carbon fiber. I primarily plan on shooting 105-109 bergers.

Kinport peak rifle will have that reamer once my barrels are chambered.

No data yet, obviously, but im hoping for 34-3500 without pressure but we will see

Lapua brass

 

[Dogtown]

im hoping for 34-3500 without pressure but we will see

And 600 round barrel life?

 

[John Glidewell]

3400 fps with 7.5 twist is 326,400 rpm. Same speed in 8 twist is 306,000 rpm. Jacket failure happens around 300,000 to 320,000 rpm depending on bullet.

 

[Surdez1994]

And 600 round barrel life?

Barrels aren't Cheap and coyotes aint worth a dime. But i sure spend a lot of money on them

3400 fps with 7.5 twist is 326,400 rpm. Same speed in 8 twist is 306,000 rpm. Jacket failure happens around 300,000 to 320,000 rpm depending on bullet.

3400 fps with 7.5 twist is 326,400 rpm. Same speed in 8 twist is 306,000 rpm. Jacket failure happens around 300,000 to 320,000 rpm depending on bullet.

I run 75 eldms at 315,000 rpms out of my 22 creed no problems with a 1:8 twist proof. I would venture to say i will be safer with a thicker jacket berger target bullet at high rpms

 

[Schamsy33]

I am working on a 6 PRC and have done a couple 25 PRCs and havent had any issues with Berger LRHT bullets spinning fast. 7 twist 25 PRC pushing the 135 at 3250fps = 334,285 rpm. 6 PRC 7.5 twist pushing the 109 LRHT at 3500fps = 336,000 rpm. Its certainly pushing it hard and other variables will come into play when running on the edge like that.

I am curious how a bullet's jacket failure due to excessive rpm varies based on the length of the barrel? Getting a 109 to shoot at 3500fps out of a 26" barrel will obviously take more powder and pressure than the same velocity with the same bullet out of a 30" barrel. RPM of the bullet would be the same leaving the muzzle of both length barrels, but that bullet accelerated to that rpm more quickly in the shorter barrel. I dont think we can safely assume that a particular bullet will always fail at a certain rpm window because there are other variables involved in how quickly it arrives at the max rpm. I think it is safer to assume that the quicker a bullet reaches max rpm, more stress has been imparted onto the jacket and it is thus more likely to fail.

 

[Chauncymayne]

I am working on a 6 PRC and have done a couple 25 PRCs and havent had any issues with Berger LRHT bullets spinning fast. 7 twist 25 PRC pushing the 135 at 3250fps = 334,285 rpm. 6 PRC 7.5 twist pushing the 109 LRHT at 3500fps = 336,000 rpm. Its certainly pushing it hard and other variables will come into play when running on the edge like that.

I am curious how a bullet's jacket failure due to excessive rpm varies based on the length of the barrel? Getting a 109 to shoot at 3500fps out of a 26" barrel will obviously take more powder and pressure than the same velocity with the same bullet out of a 30" barrel. RPM of the bullet would be the same leaving the muzzle of both length barrels, but that bullet accelerated to that rpm more quickly in the shorter barrel. I dont think we can safely assume that a particular bullet will always fail at a certain rpm window because there are other variables involved in how quickly it arrives at the max rpm. I think it is safer to assume that the quicker a bullet reaches max rpm, more stress has been imparted onto the jacket and it is thus more likely to fail.

These things are all interesting points to take into account. However, if I was going to run a heavier class bullet I wouldn’t be as concerned with the RPM’s and throwing jackets because it’s getting closer to the limit. Compared to if I was going to run a lightweight jacketed varmit bullet such as a V-Max near 4000 FPS. In order to take the possibility of that issue away, I’m going to go with a solid. That’s not a big deal to me since this gun may only be shot 50-100 times a year at most. In the information I have been able to find I’ve heard folks getting 3700 FPS+ with 88 grain bullets. Which is what I’m looking to do.

My biggest question, is what powder charges and with what powder are working in this cartridge. I’ve seen RL26 as well as I’m assuming H1000 will work. It would be greatly appreciated if you could share what loads you end up running in your 6PRC even if they are heavier.

 

[Mike Casselton]

6mm-284 data will get you in the ballpark

 

[Schamsy33]

55.5-56.5gr RL26 with 108 ELDM - the 56.5gr is just below pressure signs in my rifle with Hornady brass. 3425fps with 24" barrel
Working on new loads with Lapua brass now with H1000 and N565.

I do intend to run a 69gr Absolute Hunter or 88gr Hammer Hunter bullets at warp speed in this as well. I will share any info when I get to it.

 

[Chauncymayne]

55.5-56.5gr RL26 with 108 ELDM - the 56.5gr is just below pressure signs in my rifle with Hornady brass. 3425fps with 24" barrel
Working on new loads with Lapua brass now with H1000 and N565.

I do intend to run a 69gr Absolute Hunter or 88gr Hammer Hunter bullets at warp speed in this as well. I will share any info when I get to it.

Thanks for the information! I look forward to hearing about your findings with the light weight bullets!

 

[shootingnut]

Currently found a good load of 110 atips with 58gr of n565 and virgin Lapua with CCI BR primers, running at about 3328 fps (26" barrel) with no pressure signs. Noticed no bullet explosions yet, but I haven't taken it past the paper at 100 yards yet.

I could theoretically push the powder charge further, but I want to keep the same load for summertime and don't want to start seeing pressure when the temps here get up to 100. Gonna be taking it out to distance this weekend, will report back if the atips end up coming apart before impact.

 

[shootingnut]

Ordered a 7t 6PRC from PVA yesterday. Sub’d for updates.

Planning on running solids only in that guy? I'm curious if Atips or hybrids would hold up in a 7 twist.

I can give an update as well. Been out to 765 yards twice now with the Atips and no bullet blow ups to speak of, still keeping the same load going 3328 fps in a 7.5 twist 5R.

So far I love this thing, only slightly more recoil than a 6mm Creed but way more wind bucking and slaps steel with authority and can watch my impacts clearly. Gonna see if I can smack a yote with it in the next month or so and see some terminal results.

 

[McNamara0851]

I’m not counting on being able to run anything other than solids, but I will try the 90 ELDx and 95TMK. The 77TMK in my 7.7T 22-250AI come apart around 3450. ~325,000 iirc.

 

[McNamara0851]

What is everyone’s experience/methods with brass and dies so far? This barrel is going on LH Coup De Grace action, so I will have plenty of time to gather components, but I’d like to get started sooner than later.

 

[shootingnut]

What is everyone’s experience/methods with brass and dies so far? This barrel is going on LH Coup De Grace action, so I will have plenty of time to gather components, but I’d like to get started sooner than later.

I'm running a 6.5 PRC full length sizing die, on fresh 6.5 PRC brass I'll run it through the sizer with a 280 bushing and then a 270, then load it up. Running new Lapua brass and not getting any runout or needing trimming as far as I can tell.

Still no blow ups yet from the Atips, took a couple yotes with them last night and they do some work. Based on my math they should be going about 320k RPM so I'm keeping my fingers crossed still.

 

[Djfergus]

We've took a couple of whitetails with the 6prc & 110atips @ aprx 3400fps mv. One thru the spine. Dime sized exit. The other was quartering away. In thru the front ribs & out thru off side shoulder. Quarter sized exit. Both were about 200yds away.

 

[4O6shootist]

My buddy is shooting 108 elite hunters at 3500 from a 26" barrel running 57.6gr rl26. Jumping them 70k, and it's a consistent half to third moa rifle. Coyote rig so he doesn't care how long the brass lasts or barrel for that matter.

 

[shootingnut]

My buddy is shooting 108 elite hunters at 3500 from a 26" barrel running 57.6gr rl26. Jumping them 70k, and it's a consistent half to third moa rifle. Coyote rig so he doesn't care how long the brass lasts or barrel for that matter.

What twist is on that guy by chance?

Here's some of the damage from mine, fox at about 125 yards, 3330 mv 110 atip. Also took a yote at 150 but forgot to get a picture, not as destructive results but I don't think I hit any bone on that one.

 

[4O6shootist]

What twist is on that guy by chance?

Bartlein 8tw 5r carbon 237 bore.

 

[Djfergus]

I took an armadillo @ around 125 yds with the 110 atp Blew it in half.

 

[evilsvt]

Going to take my 6PRC on an axis hunt this week. 22” 1:9 pushing a 90TGK at 3500 using 59gr of H4831SC.

 

[Chauncymayne]

Has anyone done any load development with H1000 yet? Also curious if anyone has experience with DTAC’s in this cartridge and if they have any tendencies to blow up?

 

[4O6shootist]

I just ordered a 6saum reamer with 215k freebore to shoot nothing but nose ring cut dtacs. 7.75tw rem varm hawkhill, zermatt medium action. This is going to be primarily a hunting rig.

 

[OkieRancher]

Built one a few years back
When powder was scarce
Ran some magpro since it was all I could find 57gr behind a 112 Barnes match burner 3350 consistently
Shoots them very well.

Daughter took a whitetail last year with it at 650yds
Piled him up.

 

[4O6shootist]

Built one a few years back
When powder was scarce
Ran some magpro since it was all I could find 57gr behind a 112 Barnes match burner 3350 consistently
Shoots them very well.

Daughter took a whitetail last year with it at 650yds
Piled him up.

Good info! Curios what twist rate you chose?

 

[Djfergus]

Built one a few years back
When powder was scarce
Ran some magpro since it was all I could find 57gr behind a 112 Barnes match burner 3350 consistently
Shoots them very well.

Daughter took a whitetail last year with it at 650yds
Piled him up.

Did you sort the match burners or just shoot them?

 

[OkieRancher]

7.5 26" barrel

 

[OkieRancher]

just shot them
Haven't had an issue
don't have as much time to shoot as I once did.
Damn farming and ranching all the time

I do have some hogs baited and waiting on a cooler evening to go swat one around 500yds
I want to see how it will handle a boars shoulder.

 

[4O6shootist]

Going to take my 6PRC on an axis hunt this week. 22” 1:9 pushing a 90TGK at 3500 using 59gr of H4831SC.

How'd the game changers hold up at freak speed on game? Still exit like normal?

 

[TX_Diver]

Has anyone done any load development with H1000 yet? Also curious if anyone has experience with DTAC’s in this cartridge and if they have any tendencies to blow up?

Ryan Avery on Rokslide is using the DTACs in a 6UM. Seems like similar velocities to what you're looking at with the 6PRC but I'm not sure if the powders would be similar.


Not sure on linking another forum here but google "rokslide 6UM" and you'll find the thread and all the load data/velocities. Think he did have an issue with one losing a tip and striking a baffle recently.

 

[4O6shootist]

Ryan Avery on Rokslide is using the DTACs in a 6UM. Seems like similar velocities to what you're looking at with the 6PRC but I'm not sure if the powders would be similar.


Not sure on linking another forum here but google "rokslide 6UM" and you'll find the thread and all the load data/velocities. Think he did have an issue with one losing a tip and striking a baffle recently.

They're using shorter barrel suppressed rigs, improved Saum case, LONG freebore, and lots of N570 to get the velocity. N570 will smoke a 65 prc barrel in less than 1000 rounds(I've done it), in 6mm bore it'll probably be 700. I wouldn't follow their steps there, unless it's a dedicated hunting rig that might get 40-50 rounds a year down it.

 

[evilsvt]

How'd the game changers hold up at freak speed on game? Still exit like normal?

Eh. Ended up making a head shot on her, grass was hip deep and didn’t want to have to find her. Shot her at 175 yards

 

[TX_Diver]

They're using shorter barrel suppressed rigs, improved Saum case, LONG freebore, and lots of N570 to get the velocity. N570 will smoke a 65 prc barrel in less than 1000 rounds(I've done it), in 6mm bore it'll probably be 700. I wouldn't follow their steps there, unless it's a dedicated hunting rig that might get 40-50 rounds a year down it.

I'm not going down that route although I could get it to last me a few years if needed. Just a data point on someone pushing 6mm DTACs.

Out of curiosity/ignorance, does the shorter barrel and longer freebore make much difference on if the bullet would come apart or not? Or is it solely related to velocity and twist (which would correlate to RPM)?

 

[4O6shootist]

I'm not going down that route although I could get it to last me a few years if needed. Just a data point on someone pushing 6mm DTACs.

Out of curiosity/ignorance, does the shorter barrel and longer freebore make much difference on if the bullet would come apart or not? Or is it solely related to velocity and twist (which would correlate to RPM)?

Shorter barrel will not have an impact on blow ups, longer freebore is just to get the long bearing surface DTAC up out the powder space. DTACs are made by sierra, known for their tough jackets. My 6saum will be a 7.5tw as the barrel already showed up and they sent 7.5 instead of the 7.75 I ordered.
Keeping rpms down(slower twist/less velocity) and running a 237 bore VS 236 bore will help mitigate or eliminate jacket failure. The tighter bore diameter causes more jacket deformation on its way down the tube which can cause damage to the jacket and initiate bullet failure once it exits. I personally do not use 236 bore 6mm blanks for this reason, as well that it causes pressure signs to show up sooner in the loading process.

 

[rabeck27]

I just took an old 26” 6 creed barrel and set it back with a 6 PRC reamer. It’s a 7 twist which i figured was gonna be way too fast but I just wanted to play a bit and see what i could learn and then use a new blank for long term.

I ordered a Manson reamer with the slightly larger base to prevent the clicker issue .277 neck and .100 freebore. I believe i got this info from some guys on here. It worked out perfectly.

I’m using rcbs 6.5 PRC match master dies. I ordered a 6mm decapping stem and made a plug to hold the stem. It’s a different thread size than the 6.5 PRC stem. 6mm stem is 10-32.

Link to the stem.

Buy MatchMaster Exp-Decap Assembly and More | RCBS

Shopping for the MatchMaster Exp-Decap Assembly - Learn more about the latest Replacement Parts and other hunting or shooting gear at RCBS.

www.rcbs.com

Using lapua 6.5 PRC brass, i tried stepping down to .280, then .270. Checking concentricity, going straight to .270 all at once was actually giving me less runout.

So far, I’ve tried 110 A-Tips and 87 VMAX. The .100 freebore is perfect. Both bullets are seated with the bottom of bearing surface right at the neck/shoulder junction when .015 off the lands. The A-tips are just short enough to fit in MDT 300 wsm mags at 2.920 COAL.

110 A-tip COAL touching lands = 2.936
87 VMAX COAL touching lands = 2.695

58.5 gr H1000 was about the pressure limit with the A-Tips and got me 3375 fps. I did not have any bullets blow up and they are shooting 1/2 moa out of a tired old barrel. Can’t complain there.

58.5 gr of RL26 was also max charge before i got pressure signs. Got me 3460 fps and 1/2 moa as well. Still no blown up bullets.

87 vmax maxed out at 60 gr RL26 and 3736 fps. They were blowing up at that speed so i backed them down and got them to stay together at 59 gr/3670 fps. Shooting about 1 moa. I need to play and see if i can get them to tighten up but the twist may be too much. I figure they can handle about 375,000 rpm. So, i will probably go to a 7.5 twist which will work for both bullets.

The groundhogs really seem to like the vmax bullets.

 

[4O6shootist]

@rabeck27 how'd the 277 nk diameter work out? Curious what the loaded neck diameter is after necking down. My 65prc adg brass has a loaded diameter of 293-294, so I figured with neck down, loaded necked down to 6mm diameter would be around 274. I'm still waiting on my 279nk 6saum reamer. Barrel is a 7.75tw, but we put a LOT(0.225) of freebore in it to shoot the nose ring cut 115 dtacs jumping a long ways. It'll be finished at 24" and I just want to run them around 3300fps with H1000 or Retumbo, something that burns cool to prevent rapid throat erosion.

 

[rabeck27]

@4O6shootist loaded neck diameter is .2735. I definitely wouldn’t want to go any smaller than .277 for lapua brass. With .015 neck thickness on ADG, you’ll end up about the same with loaded round as me. I’d say .279 will be just about right.

 

[4O6shootist]

@4O6shootist loaded neck diameter is .2735. I definitely wouldn’t want to go any smaller than .277 for lapua brass. With .015 neck thickness on ADG, you’ll end up about the same with loaded round as me. I’d say .279 will be just about right.

Thanks for the info!

 

[shootingnut]

I have been doing some looking around across different forums and sites to see what kind of loads folks are running on a 6mm PRC and haven’t had much luck, especially with light weight bullets.

Planning on running solids, currently thinking 88 grain *Cutting Edge MTH* in a 7.5 twist. Anybody have any suggestion on powder types, charges, and what kind of velocity they are getting?

Brand of Brass being used would be great to know as well.

Thinking I need solids because I don’t want to worry about throwing jackets on bullets in a twist that fast, as well as hoping to have that better BC bullet in the solid. (I don’t plan on getting a slower twist barrel, I am just getting an old 6GT barrel rechambered for something fun that goes the speed of light — 3700 FPS+).

Thank you in advance!

*Edit* - Meant Cutting Edge 88 Grain Solid not Flatline.

Update that's directly relevant to this. I decided to work up a load with the Cutting Edge MTH Gen 2 88 grain for a potential depredation elk hunt on national park land, which requires non-lead projectiles.

Worked up a load of 61.03 grains of n565, CCI BR2 primer, new Lapua brass, loaded to 2.693 COAL (so the case mouth just touches the Seal Tight band as per the recommendations from Cutting Edge), 3 thou neck tension.

Getting about 3651 fps with .5 moa groups with no pressure signs, very slight powder crunch on seating. Could probably get it going faster with a faster burning powder, but this is what I have available.

Here's a quick vid of me shooting it at 650 yards on steel, it gets there quick but man it sounds similar to a 77gr 223 on impact.

 

[shootingnut]

Got an update on the 6 PRC chronicles for anyone who is still watching this thread.

I was able to connect on a cow elk at about 250 yards with that 88gr Cutting Edge MTH Gen 2 with an impact velocity of about 3100 fps. Even though I placed the shot a little lower than I had wanted, the results were still devastating and I'm extremely impressed with the terminal performance of the bullet. I was going for a high shoulder shot but ended up slipping it in a bit low and it became a high lung shot.

She ran a little over 100 yards on pure adrenaline after the shot along with her herd and then laid down and expired.

In the chest cavity picture, the entrance hole is on the left and you can see that the bullet began expanding almost immediately after entry as the inside entrance and inside exit hole on the right side of the chest cavity are about the same size.

Gotta be honest, I was not expecting a baseball sized permanent wound channel from an 88gr 6mm copper bullet, but this thing made me a believer.

 

[Nohuddlefirearms]

Love the 6 PRC. I’ve been running mine for a year and a half. 58 grains of reloader 26 w/ 110 Atips have done exceptionally well out of a 22 inch barrel doing 3330 fps. Found the 108 to be about 80 ft./s Faster with the same load.

Curious, anyone tried the 80 grain ELDvt’s yet? Any loads/ speeds to give me a baseline using reloader 26?

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

Have any of you guys put many rounds through your 6 prcs yet? I'm curious how accuracy and load tuning is holding up over the life of the barrel.
I'm thinking about going from 6.5 saum to this cartridge in my wife's ultralight shorty hunting rifle to reduce recoil.

 

[Nohuddlefirearms]

In case anyone is interested:

 

[shootingnut]

Have any of you guys put many rounds through your 6 prcs yet? I'm curious how accuracy and load tuning is holding up over the life of the barrel.
I'm thinking about going from 6.5 saum to this cartridge in my wife's ultralight shorty hunting rifle to reduce recoil.

I've put probably 600 through mine and still shooting great. I run fairly moderate loads and mostly the heavies around 110 grain and the load I started with still works exactly the same. From my discussion with gunsmiths, I predict it'll last about 1k rounds or so. Not many guys have even put so much as 400 rounds on theirs because it's typically a hunting cartridge that you aren't putting tons of rounds through.

If you want something for your wife that'll still cut through the wind and pack a punch at distance but with less recoil then I'd definitely recommend it. I'd put the 6 PRC right around the recoil level of a 6.5 creed. It's more recoil than my 6 creed but less than my 6.5 PRC for sure.

In case anyone is interested:

Great video. Interesting how he basically made a 6 Creedmoor out of it with the short barrel. I still prefer the longer barrel for more speed, but I also hunt in wide open spaces so the length doesn't hurt me much.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

I've put probably 600 through mine and still shooting great. I run fairly moderate loads and mostly the heavies around 110 grain and the load I started with still works exactly the same. From my discussion with gunsmiths, I predict it'll last about 1k rounds or so. Not many guys have even put so much as 400 rounds on theirs because it's typically a hunting cartridge that you aren't putting tons of rounds through.

If you want something for your wife that'll still cut through the wind and pack a punch at distance but with less recoil then I'd definitely recommend it. I'd put the 6 PRC right around the recoil level of a 6.5 creed. It's more recoil than my 6 creed but less than my 6.5 PRC for sure.




Great video. Interesting how he basically made a 6 Creedmoor out of it with the short barrel. I still prefer the longer barrel for more speed, but I also hunt in wide open spaces so the length doesn't hurt me much.

Right on that's great input, 1000 rounds is definitely gonna take about 5 years with this rifle so I'm really not that worried about it.
Good to hear that accuracy has remained without having to tweak your loads, that's my biggest concern with overbore cartridges.

 

[shootingnut]

Right on that's great input, 1000 rounds is definitely gonna take about 5 years with this rifle so I'm really not that worried about it.
Good to hear that accuracy has remained without having to tweak your loads, that's my biggest concern with overbore cartridges.

I should caveat that with the fact that I got this barrel with about 200 rounds already on it used, so it was already well broken in. Assuming you're past the break in period I don't see why you couldn't use the same load until it's burned out. Wouldn't be a bad idea to clean it more often though. For example, I'll try and give it a good clean every 60 rounds or so whereas my 6 Creedmoor might go 150-200 rounds before a clean. I think that cleaning schedule helps prevent groups opening up on an overbore cartridge like this.

 

[rabeck27]

Has anyone tried any super light bullets? Just picked up some 55 gr hammer hunters and wanna see how fast i can make them go. Just curious what powder might yield the best speed with light bullets. I have H4350, H4831SC, H1000 and RL26

 

[shootingnut]

Has anyone tried any super light bullets? Just picked up some 55 gr hammer hunters and wanna see how fast i can make them go. Just curious what powder might yield the best speed with light bullets. I have H4350, H4831SC, H1000 and RL26

Lightest I've been able to try so far has been the 88gr Cutting Edge with n565. Also looks like others have tried the 87 vmax with RL26 but I don't see anything lighter than that. Since you have RL26 I'd give that a shot and see what happens.

 

[rabeck27]

Here’s what i got.

55 gr hammer hunter, 2.120 cbto, 2.463 COAL, 210M, RL16

54.0 3800
55.0 3940
56.0 3979
57.0 4068
59.5 4257 no pressure, almost 100% case fill

55 gr hammer hunter, 2.120 cbto, 2.463 COAL, 210M, H4831SC
60.0 3867
61.5 3987 100% case fill, no more room for powder

55 gr hammer hunter, 2.120 cbto, 2.463 COAL, 210M, RL15.5
56.0 4332 slight pressure
57.0 4424 slight pressure
58.0 4515 slight pressure
*primers weren’t very flat but saw a very slight ejector swipe on the brass on all three of these. Interesting that it didn’t get any worse as the charge went higher

55 gr hammer hunter, 2.120 cbto, 2.463 COAL, 210M, H4350
61.6 4490 - moderate ejector swipe

Didn’t have much time to shoot multiple charges of every powder but i did shoot one group with the RL15.5 at 58.0 gr. See below. Keep in mind this barrel is a take-off 6 creed retired from PRS duty and set back. Decent results i think.