6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

[Tripwire]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Always hated that agree-to-disagree thing...absolutely stupid concept.

Spend your time at the annealing machine if that's what trips your trigger, I'd rather spend the bulk of it shooting.

Happy New Year too.........

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Yes, I'll spend the additional 10 min. at the machine to check the spring back of my necks before running the batch through, but I hardly classify that as the "bulk" of my time. But, now we're getting into the quantitative vs. qualitative thing again...

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ron Morrison</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

That doesn't answer the question. You've explained why you anneal, but not how you verify that its been done correctly.

</div></div>

The only way I know to determine exactly what you have done is with a Hardness Testing Machine and test to the original specification as found in your first post.</div></div>

You don't need to know the exact hardness to know if you're in the right area. Its much like reading pressure indicators on your brass; it won't give you an exact pressure, but it'll tell you what region your in. </div></div>

Annealing is done to soften from work hardening. You're willing to accept that pressure indicators on brass give you the "region your in" when they can vary from maker to maker even in spec'd brass and different primers, but you are not willing to accept that extended case life is a result of correct annealing. Qualitative results are fine.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Extended case life is an indicator and a result of correct annealing, but it isn't quantitative unless you're comparing it to control group and can say by how many firings it has extended case life. Further, using something that can only be know at the end of the life of the case is of little use when setting up the process at the beginning to the life of the case, isn't it?

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Do you want quantitative (4 reloads vs reported 10-20) or qualitative (heat the neck to XXX degrees F for X.X seconds)? Once someone has a workable annealing process it is repeatable. Most of the guys I know that anneal can tell if it's right when they seat bullets, to the point of culing out rounds that didn't feel right (qualitative measurement) and set those aside. Shooting those as practice gives larger groups (quantitative measurement). I understand you want to better define the process for annealing but you are trying to overanalyze it to the point that it becomes overbearing to do in your garage. Contrast the methods done now to putting the shell in a cake pan half full of water and heating with a tourch until it glows and knocking it over. How bright of a glow, how bright is the room, how warm is the water? To some that is ancient and awkward but it worked for them.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

The all time record I have heard of was in the 70 something firings on a
6.5x55 case. He is one of us old timers that's been annealing with a torch in
one hand and a beer in the other for 40 years. The case was still good when
he quit posting about it. If you are a bench shooter it matters. For the rest of us
it doesn't. You can get as technical as you want, you'll never get it perfect and
it doesn't need to be.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you want quantitative (4 reloads vs reported 10-20)or qualitative (heat the neck to XXX degrees F for X.X seconds)? </div></div>

Knowing that what I'm about to do will extended the life of the case if I do it correctly, doesn't help me to do it correctly.

For time vs. temperature, realize that changing the torch setting, changing the type of torch and/or changing the number of torches will all change that temperature, and therefore the time require. The dull glow is a more consistent indicator than Tempilaq unless you're using the same torch setup, at the same settings as the person giving you the timing. But, I'm still going to go by the material itself (spring back).

And btw, both of those are quantitative... Here's a little lesson: quantitative means that you've assigned a numerical value to it, qualitative means that you're describing it in general terms, with no specific value, so its open to interpretation.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

As long as you are assigning numbers, let's see if you can report exact numbers on the precision annealing you are trying to achieve.

Figure it a homework assignment....

Do tell us EXACTLY (that's only fair since you are striving to accomplish scientific precision in the first place) how much difference your CNC method makes compared to what the rest of us less fortunate/less knowledgeable heathans can accomplish by hand/eye.

We will want to see group sizes, and a whole raft of chrono results, and of course some "quantitative" measure of your brass life....in direct comparison of course (that is, if you can actually shoot well enough to actually see/determine/note a difference)

So, you will have to also become proficient in the "old way" as well to make your studies valid. We'll discount for now that each piece of brass has enough margin of error built into it by default, metalurgically and physically, to drive you insane with your pin gauges but it will at least be entertaining...at a bare minimum.

I'm betting a pig in a poke that you will end up right back here full circle saying that for the most part it wasn't worth the bother.....

 

[killer_penguin]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm betting a pig in a poke that you will end up right back here full circle saying that for the most part it wasn't worth the bother..... </div></div>

Bingo. While annealing might be new to kombayotch, it's not exactly new. Some people with large sized brains have looked into the issue in detail.

Although, as you say, if kombayotch is prepared to put in the work to prove he has anything to contribute, I will love to see the results and thank him for his work.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Wow! You really have trouble keeping your eye on the ball don't you?

I've never said that doing it by hand could not achieve the same results, I said that just putting the case in the flame for a fixed amount of time doesn't guarantee that it's been annealed. That using a Tempilaq value alone doesn't guarantee it and you should check the property of the brass itself to verify.

I've done it by hand. Plenty of guys on here use the cheap, simple jig I posted many moons ago for doing it by hand:

But, you know what? Doing batches of 300 was tedious enough using this method, I'm not going to be doing this way for batches of 1000 of 2000.

My original question was about the discrepancies between the temperatures listed in the 6mmbr article and those listed in material sheets. I then asked how people verified that they had indeed annealed the necks by checking properties of the material itself. Never once did I say that it couldn't be done accurately by hand, so no, I'm not going to post anything to prove a claim that I never made because you somehow see the use of a machine as elitist.

I post plenty of data on here, including pressure data, to share things with others. What data have YOU posted so far to help your fellow shooters?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Penguin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm betting a pig in a poke that you will end up right back here full circle saying that for the most part it wasn't worth the bother..... </div></div>

Bingo. While annealing might be new to kombayotch, it's not exactly new. Some people with large sized brains have looked into the issue in detail.

Although, as you say, if kombayotch is prepared to put in the work to prove he has anything to contribute, I will love to see the results and thank him for his work. </div></div>

You're going to call someone out when you have 33 posts of dataless commentary to back it up? Yeah, thanks for come'n out!

 

[Tripwire]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Yep, your original post pertained to your disagreement about temps, compared to what you are seeing.

Which quickly prompted several of us to try and help you understand, among other things, that the temps you were trying to hit with so much anal precision really didn't matter much as there is a "zone" wide enough in annealing rifle brass that you being precisely at some generic point within that zone isn't going to make a meaningful difference under real world conditions.

Talk about keeping an eye on the ball dude....

Your argument, whether actual, implied, or accidental, is that you intend to make a more "accurate" annealing process via a CNC controlled process...else you wouldn't bother posting your science fair project. Which by default pits the old way against your way. It's not my fault you were unprepared to back up your side, or are yet willing to do so.

Your fast time vs hot temp arrangement tells me you are screwing up right from the git go, but shit, what do I know...I'm not a data junkie for the sake of collecting data, therefore I'm not as "correct", I guess.

If I'm/we're wrong that you are likely pissing up a rope here, then it behooves you to prove me/us wrong...since this is your topic at hand, not mine/ours. We're just the Peanut Gallery........

 

[Tripwire]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You're going to call someone out when you have 33 posts of dataless commentary to back it up? Yeah, thanks for come'n out!

</div></div>

You opened that door Friend when you brought out that big word "quantitative", and then proceeded to define it for us lesser folks, as if it/that adds some level of rightousness to your "work" that's above us.

This is your horse Pard, ride it........

 

[John L]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're going to call someone out when you have 33 posts of dataless commentary to back it up? Yeah, thanks for come'n out!</div></div>

Post count does not equal knowledge.

 

[killer_penguin]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John L</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're going to call someone out when you have 33 posts of dataless commentary to back it up? Yeah, thanks for come'n out!</div></div>

Post count does not equal knowledge. </div></div>

Quite. Not to mention that a LOT of people with more knowledge than most refuse to post on forums of any kind due to personalities that exist there.

The predictability of the "post count" attack when someone cannot defend their position is almost like clockwork.

I'll trust the people at bench source that created the $500 machine I use to anneal.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Tripwire,

I'm sorry that you interpreted my posting of CNC annealing machine as a knock against the old method. But, I was not looking for an annealing lesson. I know how to anneal, whether its manual, automated, and yes even with the accelerated time-temperature I'm using (the precision of the machine does allow this). Thanks for the thought though, your torch trick is clever and does make it more like the swirl flame.

I asked for a credible source of data related to the annealing temperatures because what is listed in the article doesn't match what what I'm seeing. I was given a source that did at least partially agreed with the 6mmbr numbers... the lower limit anyway. Here it is, for those that may be interested:

I was also passed along a photo of the colors brass takes in relation to temperature achieved (in celcius), purportedly taken by a metallurgist (unverifed):

This supports the assertion that the upper temperature limits mentioned in the article are low. Your own method of basing your timing on the glow does as well. According to the article, that should have went to 950F and destroyed your cases.

My intention was not to show a more accurate method of annealing. I tried adjusting my new process using these Tempilaq paints, based on temperatures and instructions provided in that article. Things did not match up. The argument here isn't about manual vs. automated, its about the method of setting the timing with either method. And I think we both agree that an arbitrary Tempilaq temperature value is not the best way of setting it.

Your method of going by the dull glow or my method of testing the spring back can be done on either a manual or automated process. Both are putting us above the dreaded 800 F limit. However, both are based on a property of the brass itself, which I trust more than the paint.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Penguin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Although, as you say, if kombayotch is prepared to put in the work to prove he has anything to contribute, I will love to see the results and thank him for his work. </div></div>

No KP, the keyword here is not knowledge, but <span style="text-decoration: underline">contribute</span>. And if you're going to questions someone's contribution, then yeah, post count and your own contribution comes into play. And, I've contributed more than my fair share to the forum.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

The way he annealed those samples is really fascinating. For the experiment, he used a bath of molten potassium nitrate. The temperature was monitored with a thermocouple.

The heat transfer rate from a liquid to the thin-section solid is very high, much higher than gas-to-solid. So the neck reaches the bath temperature within a couple seconds, without it being transferred to the case body. Similar times to what we see with torches, but without the possibility of overshooting the temperature. I need to clarify what affect this has on the brass; if this was just for experimentation or if it would work for bulk annealing.

Here's a pic of the process:

Bath is at 408 celcius.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Nice write up...impressed, here, with that.

Still not in the market for a CNC annealer though....<grin>

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

I may not have much use for it either once I understand this dipping process and its effects... But, my annealer is only a jig I made from scraps of AL that I already had, and I only spent $30 on the torches, so no big loss.

I haven't heard back from him yet. But, there are a few reasons why he probably chose potassium nitrate for his molten salt bath.

Unlike lead, it isn't toxic and impurities won't cause it to weld to the brass like solder. They used to use it for making beef jerky, some people still do. It's saltpeter. The know side effect is that it lowers sex drive. He said that his dipping pot has never seen lead...

According to Wikipedia: "It is also commonly used in the heat treatment of metals as a solvent in the post-wash. The oxidizing, water solubility and low cost make it an ideal short-term rust inhibitor."

If this dipping doesn't harm the brass (which is shouldn't), and the residue cleans off easily (which it should), he has every other method I've seen licked in terms of accuracy, repeatability, simplicity and even cost in the long run. The danger of overcooking the necks is completely removed and you won't anneal the body if the dip time is short.

What he said about looking for the faint glow was that it happens at a higher temperature than is *required* for annealing, but that there is no evidence that its too high, or is harmful to the cases. That is just a myth.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Answered my question about dipping in lead. If you try it let us know how it works out. Potasium nitrate is also the oxider in real black powder. Potasium nitrate, carbon (charcol), and sulfer.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

I tried dipping in lead one time a couple of decades ago.

Read about it in Field & Stream, or something....

Probably coulda figure out how to cure it but the lead stuck to the brass like I had got the soldering gun out and did it on purpose.

Made a complete mess out of the cases, useless junk.....

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Yep, solder is lead and tin. If your lead isn't pure, you may very well have an alloy that adheres to brass/copper just like solder does.

Here is a video of his process:

http://s262.photobucket.com/albums/ii102/BattleRife/?action=view&current=Annealing_1.mp4

Still waiting on specific answers to some questions, but I guess we can infer from this that it's his regular annealing process and doesn't harm the brass.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

He has some nice photomicrographs of cracks in necks too:

 

[clmayfield]

Re: 6mmbr's annealing temperatures seem questionable..

Interesting... I agree that the temps used in the annealing articles are too low. I have some 650 F Tempilaq and not only does it turn clear, it burns almost instantaneously, even on the insides of the neck. If I turn the heat and times down to the point that the Tempilaq merely goes clear, I get zero signs of "annealing" from color change in the brass to red glow. Nothing. It can't be anywhere close to annealing. I think the 350 Tempilaq for the case head is useful to establish over-annealing of the case head, but Tempilaq to establish a lower limit is a waste of money and I am mad I bought the 650 F stuff.