6X5 Thread V5.0 *new 1/1/21*

[padom]

CoolJJ, per the rules, we have to shoot 6 consecutive targets, 5 shots each, and then report those results. You average all 5 groups for the total average (like you did on the Lapua Center-X, row one above, 0.180 is the total average. Next, review those same 6 targets, and record the smallest group as the best group (like you did above on the same Lapua row (0.074)). When folks submit new targets, both numbers (from a tracking how well folks are doing perspective) may change if they are able to shoot a better overall average or a smaller single group.

Hope this helps?

It doesn't have to be the first 6 groups. Either. It just has to be 6 consecutive groups....the numbers are right... i don't think your following

 

[jbell]

Sorry guys, I have been busy lately. I'll get this updated this evening when I'm back home.

 

[padom]

Here is another example....

Sorry, not trying to be nuisance, I was just wondering because I was trying to figure out what number to use for the best group size for my spreadsheet in the 6x5. I tried taking the first 6 or the top 6 and couldn't reproduce your numbers. This is what I'm getting according to your method described above.

							6x5 Average	Best Group
Center-X	0.222​	0.144​	0.217​	0.074​	0.150​	0.271​	0.180​	0.074​
Center-X	0.304​	0.575​	0.364​	0.187​	0.138​	0.307​	0.313​	0.138​
Federal UM22	0.232​	0.082​	0.124​	0.329​	0.269​	0.147​	0.197​	0.082​
Federal Match 922A	0.275​	0.267​	0.231​	0.459​	0.408​	0.787​	0.405​	0.231​
Wolf Match Extra	0.344​	0.260​	0.515​	0.620​	0.363​	0.222​	0.387​	0.222​
SK Rifle Match	0.419​	0.248​	0.441​	0.405​	0.581​	0.251​	0.391​	0.248​
SK Standard Plus	0.297​	0.410​	0.243​	0.277​	0.148​	0.235​	0.268​	0.148​

Another example....bottom row, SK+ labeled #1..... Groups 1 through 10....going from left to right. Groups 4 through 9.....0.277 + 0.148 + 0.235 + 0.237 + 0.076 + 0.213 = 1.186 / 6 = 0.197666 ... I only going to the 3rd decimal place but you can round that as well using the 4th decimal and call it 0.180 or leave it at 0.179.....

 

[padom]

Sorry guys, I have been busy lately. I'll get this updated this evening when I'm back home.

No worries bud! Im sure all the back and forth will be confusing.. Just use the New firearm (RimX Keystone Bartlein) with the CenterX results of 0.180" @ 50yds and best group 0.074.

 

[jbell]

Thank you, that makes it easy! That is a very impressive target!

I'm hurting to get a rimfire built soon. I went on purge this winter and sold everything but have been slow to replace it all. I even sold my Jeep (which was just a toy for me and my daughters to play in the woods).

As crazy as it may sound I really want to get back into 3p air rifle, just for me vs me.

 

[padom]

Thank you, that makes it easy! That is a very impressive target!

I'm hurting to get a rimfire built soon. I went on purge this winter and sold everything but have been slow to replace it all. I even sold my Jeep (which was just a toy for me and my daughters to play in the woods).

As crazy as it may sound I really want to get back into 3p air rifle, just for me vs me.

Thanks man. This RimX keeps getting better and better by the day its amazing. Especially when it goes against everything we knew about rimfires and fixed headspace. Headspace doesnt matter with this rifle due to its design of holding the rim against the bolt face at all times. Ill admit, I was worried at first but it has been outstanding and actually has opened up the world of prefits for 22LR without the smith ever seeing the action. With Zermatt bringing the ultra tight action tolerances to the rimfire action that they have been known for with their centerfire actions has opened this possibility up. Thats why I have been a huge @Zermatt Arms supporter for many years now and own 6 of their actions and dont have a single complaint with any of them.

Each barrel I screw on to this action amazes me and when I think it cant shoot any better, the next barrel shoots better than the last. ALL of the barrels have shot better than most people can shoot or think is even possible with a 22LR. This Bartlein is just so damn forgiving, that entire target, all the ammo, is just amazing.

Hard to beat the RimX launch deals currently going on right now too. To think you can get into a barreled action, exactly to your requested specs for under $1500 with a billet magazine is awesome! Good times in the 22LR world right now!

 

[CoolJJ]

Here is another example....



Another example....bottom row, SK+ labeled #1..... Groups 1 through 10....going from left to right. Groups 4 through 9.....0.277 + 0.148 + 0.235 + 0.237 + 0.076 + 0.213 = 1.186 / 6 = 0.197666 ... I only going to the 3rd decimal place but you can round that as well using the 4th decimal and call it 0.180 or leave it at 0.179.....

Thanks, that clears it up. I must have been a little slow from the tequila...

 

[arrow179]

There is some darn good shooting in this thread!! Wish it would stop raining so I could get out and shoot.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

Thanks man. This RimX keeps getting better and better by the day its amazing. Especially when it goes against everything we knew about rimfires and fixed headspace. Headspace doesnt matter with this rifle due to its design of holding the rim against the bolt face at all times. Ill admit, I was worried at first but it has been outstanding and actually has opened up the world of prefits for 22LR without the smith ever seeing the action. With Zermatt bringing the ultra tight action tolerances to the rimfire action that they have been known for with their centerfire actions has opened this possibility up. Thats why I have been a huge @Zermatt Arms supporter for many years now and own 6 of their actions and dont have a single complaint with any of them.

Each barrel I screw on to this action amazes me and when I think it cant shoot any better, the next barrel shoots better than the last. ALL of the barrels have shot better than most people can shoot or think is even possible with a 22LR. This Bartlein is just so damn forgiving, that entire target, all the ammo, is just amazing.

Hard to beat the RimX launch deals currently going on right now too. To think you can get into a barreled action, exactly to your requested specs for under $1500 with a billet magazine is awesome! Good times in the 22LR world right now!

padom, a question. I don't built rifles, or have any experience with that but I recognize the desire to try different barrels on an action without having to go to a smith each time. Can you tell me, when you change the barrel, how do you know it's fitted correctly to the action. Is there some kind of measurement to make sure the spacing is correct, when you change the barrels? Appreciate any thoughts you can share about that aspect of your rifle.

Thanks!

 

[padom]

padom, a question. I don't built rifles, or have any experience with that but I recognize the desire to try different barrels on an action without having to go to a smith each time. Can you tell me, when you change the barrel, how do you know it's fitted correctly to the action. Is there some kind of measurement to make sure the spacing is correct, when you change the barrels? Appreciate any thoughts you can share about that aspect of your rifle.

Thanks!

To simplify this question and answer I will refer to rimfire actions/barrels only.... Until the RimX, gunsmiths had to have the action in hand to properly headspace the barrel.... This is very very important for rimfire accuracy as the headspace typically matched the ammo the customer was shooting (rim thickness). Its different for Lapua vs say Eley, etc... If you had excessive headspace like say .049" and were shooting Eley Tenex with a 0.039" rim thickness, your bullet was not consistently tight against the breach face on every round so you lost your consistency. This is because the extractors only held the case till the bolt was closed at which time the extractors spread apart via the extractor grooves so the bolt face is the only thing holding that bullet in the chamber.. If too much headspace, you have bullet movement...

With this RimX, Zermatt has a tenon print they provide to smiths so gunsmiths can cut barrels to Zermatt's tenon print and because Zermatt's CNC machining on these actions are so tight and so consistent, every action is the same. So when a smith makes barrel after barrel to Zermatt's tenon print spec they fit every RimX... The key here is consistency from action to action which is what makes this possible.

Now the headspace thing....Zermatt uses a tensioner that once the bulllet is slid up onto the bolt face all the way, the tensioner grabs and holds the case rim against the bolt face.... So no matter what, the case rim is consistently in the same place, shot after shot...The case cant move with creates consistency. Consitency from shot to shot is key with 22LR. So now your only inconsistency is ammo which has always been the weakest link with 22LR... This is why we buy quality ammo and lot test, sort, etc...

The RimX does come with this little headspace gauge you can use to check to make sure youre good. Honestly, havent used it to date but one shop is doing my barrels and they are 100% exactly the same. The RimX has a minimum headspace of 0.0455" and maximum of 0.050". I have Keystone setting headspace to 0.046" on every one of my barrels..

@Zermatt Arms can jump in here if I missed anything or was off on anything but I believe I explained it best as possible.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

To simplify this question and answer I will refer to rimfire actions/barrels only.... Until the RimX, gunsmiths had to have the action in hand to properly headspace the barrel.... This is very very important for rimfire accuracy as the headspace typically matched the ammo the customer was shooting (rim thickness). Its different for Lapua vs say Eley, etc... If you had excessive headspace like say .049" and were shooting Eley Tenex with a 0.039" rim thickness, your bullet was not consistently tight against the breach face on every round so you lost your consistency. This is because the extractors only held the case till the bolt was closed at which time the extractors spread apart via the extractor grooves so the bolt face is the only thing holding that bullet in the chamber.. If too much headspace, you have bullet movement...

With this RimX, Zermatt has a tenon print they provide to smiths so gunsmiths can cut barrels to Zermatt's tenon print and because Zermatt's CNC machining on these actions are so tight and so consistent, every action is the same. So when a smith makes barrel after barrel to Zermatt's tenon print spec they fit every RimX... The key here is consistency from action to action which is what makes this possible.

Now the headspace thing....Zermatt uses a tensioner that once the bolt is slid up onto the bolt face all the way, the tensioner grabs and holds the case rim against the bolt face.... So no matter what, the case rim is consistently in the same place, shot after shot...The case cant move with creates consistency. Consitency from shot to shot is key with 22LR. So now your only inconsistency is ammo which has always been the weakest link with 22LR... This is why we buy quality ammo and lot test, sort, etc...

The RimX does come with this little headspace gauge you can use to check to make sure youre good. Honestly, havent used it to date but one shop is doing my barrels and they are 100% exactly the same. The RimX has a minimum headspace of 0.0455" and maximum of 0.050". I have Keystone setting headspace to 0.046" on every one of my barrels..

@Zermatt Arms can jump in here if I missed anything or was off on anything but I believe I explained it best as possible.

padom, thanks very much for those details. I understood what you explained, so thanks for that! One question, do you plan to try a Shilen barrel on the RimX?

 

[Zermatt Arms]

To simplify this question and answer I will refer to rimfire actions/barrels only.... Until the RimX, gunsmiths had to have the action in hand to properly headspace the barrel.... This is very very important for rimfire accuracy as the headspace typically matched the ammo the customer was shooting (rim thickness). Its different for Lapua vs say Eley, etc... If you had excessive headspace like say .049" and were shooting Eley Tenex with a 0.039" rim thickness, your bullet was not consistently tight against the breach face on every round so you lost your consistency. This is because the extractors only held the case till the bolt was closed at which time the extractors spread apart via the extractor grooves so the bolt face is the only thing holding that bullet in the chamber.. If too much headspace, you have bullet movement...

With this RimX, Zermatt has a tenon print they provide to smiths so gunsmiths can cut barrels to Zermatt's tenon print and because Zermatt's CNC machining on these actions are so tight and so consistent, every action is the same. So when a smith makes barrel after barrel to Zermatt's tenon print spec they fit every RimX... The key here is consistency from action to action which is what makes this possible.

Now the headspace thing....Zermatt uses a tensioner that once the bolt is slid up onto the bolt face all the way, the tensioner grabs and holds the case rim against the bolt face.... So no matter what, the case rim is consistently in the same place, shot after shot...The case cant move with creates consistency. Consitency from shot to shot is key with 22LR. So now your only inconsistency is ammo which has always been the weakest link with 22LR... This is why we buy quality ammo and lot test, sort, etc...

The RimX does come with this little headspace gauge you can use to check to make sure youre good. Honestly, havent used it to date but one shop is doing my barrels and they are 100% exactly the same. The RimX has a minimum headspace of 0.0455" and maximum of 0.050". I have Keystone setting headspace to 0.046" on every one of my barrels..

@Zermatt Arms can jump in here if I missed anything or was off on anything but I believe I explained it best as possible.

Nailed it.

 

[padom]

padom, thanks very much for those details. I understood what you explained, so thanks for that! One question, do you plan to try a Shilen barrel on the RimX?

I dont have any plans to. Unless Shilen sent me a barrel I dont have any plans to buy one.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

jbell, have you considered including the ammo brand in the data you report for each shooter in the "current" section? As a new shooter for these challenges, it would be helpful for me to see what ammo folks are shooting.

Just a thought...

Thanks!

 

[RETE8]

Can you shoot any rimfire caliber for a 6x5 or does it have to be .22 LR?

 

[jbell]

Padom, your Bart RemX is on the board!

Rimfireshooter99, I have not thought about adding the ammo to the list. But after several years of doing this Center X is by far and away the most widely used and consistently at the top of the heap. I see some Eley Match or Tenex occasionally, with a good bit of SK. Not much RWS or Midas.

RETE8, yes as far as I am concerned any rimfire is welcome. I just note at the end of the entry if it is anything other than 22lr.

As far as the discussion about ”the rules” as mentioned they are detailed on the first post. I think we should all try to stick to them just so everyone is on the same page and the results can more accurately be used for some sort of decent data. However IMO this thread is simply about trying to get the most out of your rifle and yourself, everyone is welcome, all kinds of firearms are welcome (just keep it to rimfire). This is OUR thread, most certainly not my thread. I am just here to keep it going. I look forward to checking in and seeing y’all s targets and rifles and hearing your stories.

 

[CoolJJ]

jbell, have you considered including the ammo brand in the data you report for each shooter in the "current" section? As a new shooter for these challenges, it would be helpful for me to see what ammo folks are shooting.

Just a thought...

Thanks!

I don't think it was tracked in the past, but going forward I'm going to track it alongside a couple other variables.

Here's the google spreadsheet downloadable as an Excel file or viewable as an html file.

I complied all the previous results into one sheet and noted ammo where available. I also added barrel, firing pin position, and twist rate.

 

[jbell]

I don't think it was tracked in the past, but going forward I'm going to track it alongside a couple other variables.

Here's the google spreadsheet downloadable as an Excel file or viewable as an html file.

I complied all the previous results into one sheet and noted ammo where available. I also added barrel, firing pin position, and twist rate.

NICE

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

I don't think it was tracked in the past, but going forward I'm going to track it alongside a couple other variables.

Here's the google spreadsheet downloadable as an Excel file or viewable as an html file.

I complied all the previous results into one sheet and noted ammo where available. I also added barrel, firing pin position, and twist rate.

CoolJJ, on the 50 yard data tab, my ammo is Eley Team, not Eley Tenex. FYI. Thanks!

 

[CoolJJ]

CoolJJ, on the 50 yard data tab, my ammo is Eley Team, not Eley Tenex. FYI. Thanks!

Awesome, thanks for letting me know. I have it updated.

I've seen a lot of success in others and myself using Lapua varieties. Lapua, SK, Wolf.

Not so much with Eley. Hasn't worked that well for me except one Anschutz rifle and it requires Tenex. I'd like to see more data from others using Eley.

Same with RWS, all the varieties I have seem to shoot well in two older Anschutz rifles and Remington 37, but not the modern Anschutz. Others report RWS doesn't work for them. I would like to see more data on all the RWS varieties.

Anything else such as Federal or CCI hasn't been that impressive. I use what I have to plink steel plates with my pistols. What's interesting is padom's targets with the RimX and federal. Surprising and impressive.

 

[padom]

Also, just from what I've seen, all the Lapua varieties seem to perform well. Lapua, SK, and Wolf. I haven't seen much success with Eley. In my limited experience it only works well in one Anschutz rifle I own. RWS works well in 3 target rifles I own, but others report varying success.

Awesome, thanks for letting me know. I have it updated.

I've seen a lot of success in others and myself using Lapua varieties. Lapua, SK, Wolf.

Not so much with Eley. Hasn't worked that well for me except one Anschutz rifle and it requires Tenex. I'd like to see more data from others using Eley.

Same with RWS, all the varieties I have seem to shoot well in two older Anschutz rifles and Remington 37, but not the modern Anschutz. Others report RWS doesn't work for them. I would like to see more data on all the RWS varieties.

Anything else such as Federal or CCI hasn't been that impressive. I use what I have to plink steel plates with my pistols. What's interesting is padom's targets with the RimX and federal. Surprising and impressive.

Wolf is Eley not Lapua. They even have Eley headstamp

 

[CoolJJ]

Wolf is Eley not Lapua. They even have Eley headstamp

Correct. Unless using older Wolf. I have both varieties. I've had better results with the older Wolf than the Eley produced stuff.

 

[padom]

Correct. Unless using older Wolf. I have both varieties. I've had better results with the older Wolf than the Eley produced stuff.

Older wolf yes. But its been a while.

 

[CoolJJ]

Older wolf yes. But its been a while.

Ha!, it has, I've got a stash that's been sitting in storage for a while. Sometimes I forget it's changed.

 

[orkan]

Ha!, it has, I've got a stash that's been sitting in storage for a while. Sometimes I forget it's changed.

I still have a stash of that good wolf branded SK/lapua as well.

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

padom, I was reviewing the 6x5, 50 yard averages, and noticed you shoot very well with both a RimX/Bartlein and a Vudoo/Benchmark. I currently shoot an Anschutz 1903, and am looking to upgrade to a Vudoo. I know very little about the RimX action, so please bear with me. Can you comment on which rifle you can recommend and why for someone like myself? Also, which barrel contour are you using on both rifles?

Thanks very much for sharing any thoughts you might have.

 

[padom]

padom, I was reviewing the 6x5, 50 yard averages, and noticed you shoot very well with both a RimX/Bartlein and a Vudoo/Benchmark. I currently shoot an Anschutz 1903, and am looking to upgrade to a Vudoo. I know very little about the RimX action, so please bear with me. Can you comment on which rifle you can recommend and why for someone like myself? Also, which barrel contour are you using on both rifles?

Thanks very much for sharing any thoughts you might have.

I would first suggest you head over and read the RimX thread....your very questions have come up more than once and myself and others have answered multiple times. Let me know if you have any specific questions after. I would buy the RimX every day and on Sunday.

 

[RainierRimfire]

200 Yards
Vudoo V-22
18” Kukri
Ridgeback
Lapua X-Act

Avg - 2.174
Best - .999

52 degrees
66% Humid
Winds 1-3 mph

I started at 100 and shot terrible, avg was 1.175!!

Then I went out to 200 and shot this. My best ever at 200!

 

[Rimfireshooter99]

I would first suggest you head over and read the RimX thread....your very questions have come up more than once and myself and others have answered multiple times. Let me know if you have any specific questions after. I would buy the RimX every day and on Sunday.

padom, is your custom chamber reamer set to a particular ammo brand?

Thanks!

 

[jbell]

RainierRimfire, that is some good shooting. I have you on the 200 yard results.

 

[CoolJJ]

Shot one 6x5 today. Tiny improvement on average for the Remington.

Remington 37
Leupold 30x40
Lapua Midas+
50yd
Avg: .387/.739MOA
Best: .300/.573MOA

 

[CoolJJ]

CZ 457 VPT
Center-x
72F
Wind 3-6 switching 8-2. (Quarry walls)
1” dots
50y
First entry.
View attachment 7334807View attachment 7334808

Nice shooting. Can you post your average and best group size? I measured .398 avg and .210 best. Can you confirm?

 

[RETE8]

Here is my first entry into the 6x5.....gotta start somewhere. Rifle is an Anschutz 1720 .22 Mag @ 50 yds

 

[BillOH]

200 yard entry for my Ruger 10-22. Groups 2 through 7. I shot the first group and came up a minute and almost went off the target. I couldn't see the hits so came down and fired some more groups. The oblong hole between group 3 and 4 is a double. I had to keep remeasuring because I would measure one group outside to outside and then the next inside to outside. I think I got them right.

Ruger 10-22, Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25 scope, SK Biathlon, Atlas bipod, rabbit ear rear bag from a bench. Wind was about 5 mph, coming and going. I'm still trying to learn the wind.

Average 3.28. Best group 2.18.

 

[jbell]

CoolJJ & BillOH I have y’all updated. Mr. Zick and RETE8 welcome and I have y’all on the results.

 

[Gjmen22]

This is my first 6X5 post. Please let me know if I did something wrong. (other then that group 3# lol) I measured with my dial cal from center to center of the furthest holes in each group. Next time I can measure from outside to outside and subtract he .223. My question is... do I measure from the outside of the holes, or from the outside of the grayish ring left behind from the bullet? I had a better target today with some Eley match but was distracted and put a 6th bullet in group #1. I'm guessing this would get me DQ'd. Please see below. All info is on the target.

 

[jbell]

I measure from the outer lead ring leaving a crack of paper showing and then I subtract 0.222"

Post up the target with the extra round, more is always welcome. As long as you don't shoot 6 in 1 group and only 4 in another.

 

[Gjmen22]

I measure from the outer lead ring leaving a crack of paper showing and then I subtract 0.222"

Post up the target with the extra round, more is always welcome. As long as you don't shoot 6 in 1 group and only 4 in another.

Posted. Thx

 

[jbell]

Gjmen22, welcome and I have you on the results.

 

[jbell]

I measure from the outer lead ring leaving a crack of paper showing and then I subtract 0.222"

Post up the target with the extra round, more is always welcome. As long as you don't shoot 6 in 1 group and only 4 in another.

One thing I should have said if if an extra round is fired in a group it must also be included in that group size and the target average. Just wanted to point that out so everyone knows...

 

[learjet]

new 6x5 at 50 and 100...

i was trying out a different scope, a March 10-60x52 i purchased used this weekend. not really the type of scope i was planning on getting, but the glass is amazing, and i couldnt pass it up for the price. anyways, using Eley Match from machine 5 i improved my best groups and averages. winds were problematic at times, and since i dont have the hang of reading them yet i tried to wait them out.

EDIT... I noticed this morning i measured the wrong holes on my best 100 yd group, should be .650-.223=.427 CTC/1.047=.408MOA

Group average for 100 yd changes to .554 CTC, .529 MOA

please check my math!

lear

 

[orkan]

I finally had a decent condition. One of the first times this spring I've had the wind this steady. Wind was barely tugging 2-5mph, but had a nice steady wide pace to the changes in intensity... and I cranked off 6 good groups with one absolute stunner. Might be the smallest group I've shot to date with a rimfire. Best news... I shot it on camera. This tuner has pulled a solid tenth of an inch out of my group size, on average.

Distance - 50yds
Ammo - RWS R50

.192
.152
.145
.119
.009
.151
6x5 with an average of 0.128".

Here's the rifle:


Here's the target:


Here's the video:

 

[vaguru]

orkan,

That is some fantastic shooting!

 

[CoolJJ]

I finally had a decent condition. One of the first times this spring I've had the wind this steady. Wind was barely tugging 2-5mph, but had a nice steady wide pace to the changes in intensity... and I cranked off 6 good groups with one absolute stunner. Might be the smallest group I've shot to date with a rimfire. Best news... I shot it on camera. This tuner has pulled a solid tenth of an inch out of my group size, on average.

Distance - 50yds
Ammo - RWS R50

.192
.152
.145
.119
.009
.151
6x5 with an average of 0.128".

Here's the rifle:


Here's the target:


Here's the video:

Nice shooting, what Tangent Theta scope are you using so I can mark it in my record?

 

[orkan]

Nice shooting, what Tangent Theta scope are you using so I can mark it in my record?

Sure, here's the rifle specs

Rifle built by TS Customs -
RimX action
Tangent Theta 525P Gen2XR optic
Hawkins Heavy Tactical rings
Triggertech Diamond pro-curve trigger
26" Benchmark 3-groove 16.5 twist MTU contour
22LR Primal 2° chamber
Harrell tuner
McMillan A5A McWoody stock
Hawkins bottom metal
Atlas PSR bipod

 

[Gjmen22]

Nice shooting! Did you have that tuner bored for the taper of the barrel?

 

[orkan]

Nice shooting! Did you have that tuner bored for the taper of the barrel?

Yes, I had it taper bored about 10-15 thousandths oversize, to accommodate some card stock shim. I don't like clamping directly on the barrel.

 

[Gjmen22]

Yes, I had it taper bored about 10-15 thousandths oversize, to accommodate some card stock shim. I don't like clamping directly on the barrel.

Do you find any benefit in using the card stock shim? Or was it more to keep the barrel from getting marred up? Again... Nice Shooting!

 

[orkan]

Do you find any benefit in using the card stock shim? Or was it more to keep the barrel from getting marred up? Again... Nice Shooting!

Keeps the barrel from getting marred up for sure, but mainly I just like having something a little "grippy/squishy" in between there to keep things solid. I also don't want the exposed aluminum in the tuner doing anything "stupid" because of being in direct contact with dissimilar metals or cerakote.

 

[jbell]

learjet & Orkan, I have you both updated. EXCELLENT shooting both of you!!