6X5 Thread V5.0 *new 1/1/21*

[justin amateur]

High velocities don't always go high...

Got that right barronian.
If you have a cartridge with visible defects, no telling where it will end up.
Dents, dings, seams, ridges, damaged or distorted drive bands,
variations in seating depth or angle can result in odd strays.
Not your fault. Just less than stellar production quality.
Keep in mind, if the nose is beat up, the heel will be also.
No way can you expect accuracy from asymmetric projectiles.
Well, you can, but you'll have to be within spitting distance of y'er target.


Here's an example, how many differences can you find?

I see dents, slanted drive bands, different transitions from ogive to drive bands,
different widths/depths of the cannelures....do you expect consistent trajectories
when the bullets themselves are visibly dissimilar?

 

[10ring1]

I thought so, very well done.

Thanks for the add j...

 

[golden_311]

High velocities don't always go high...

Got that right barronian.
If you have a cartridge with visible defects, no telling where it will end up.
Dents, dings, seams, ridges, damaged or distorted drive bands,
variations in seating depth or angle can result in odd strays.
Not your fault. Just less than stellar production quality.
Keep in mind, if the nose is beat up, the heel will be also.
No way can you expect accuracy from asymmetric projectiles.
Well, you can, but you'll have to be within spitting distance of y'er target.


Here's an example, how many differences can you find?

I see dents, slanted drive bands, different transitions from ogive to drive bands,
different widths/depths of the cannelures....do you expect consistent trajectories
when the bullets themselves are visibly dissimilar?

I always figured that the high velocity/shooting low (not necessarily high) was more of a resonance thing. But when you get the bullets in good light, you could very well make the case that the aerodynamics are all over the place from bullet to bullet.

 

[BillOH]

Slight improvement. Vudoo, 100 yards, SK Biathlon, Vortex scope. There's always that one stray shot, isn't there?

 

[jbell]

There's always that one stray shot, isn't there?

Yep... Especially the further out you get. Nice improvement!

 

[Just Chuck]

I shot the 6X5 yesterday and did pretty well - averaged 1.12MOA. My 'cold bore' was actually my fourth shot because I had left old dope on the scope for 183 yards so didn't hit the target until I fixed that. 'Old Dope' - sounds about right

Getting the T1X fitted with options that I like - DIP rail, muzzle brake, and bolt handle. DIY cheek riser and mag holder ( seems to be working out pretty well). Added flush cups and the vertical grip - like that a lot. Using the Tikka stock and it's OK - don't see a compelling reason to swap right now.

 

[jbell]

Man I have left old dope on my scopes before, it’s such a simple thing to prevent but somehow it seems those are the things that bite you in the ass...

 

[Cofercr]

Here is my first go at the 6x5 entry
Thanks.

 

[jbell]

Gotcha on the results. Welcome to the 6X5

 

[Cofercr]

Gotcha on the results. Welcome to the 6X5

Thank you

 

[barronian]

well, i'm not going to bore you all with the 30 odd 6x5s i've shot recently. I've hit a wall and just cant improve. I don't know if it is all me or what. I suspect it is me because there is very little measurable difference between ammo types.
Or is the reality that this is par for the course for bipod and rear bag, and it is unlikely that one can get much better results without using a front rest (seb/sinclair) and a properly setup rear rest ??? Ive seen some of the stunning groups shown in this forum - but don't know how they were shot ...

 

[jbell]

I would say work on refining your position so it becomes super repeatable. Consistently is the name of the game. I find that the slightest change in some aspect of my position prevents me from attaining the extreme level of my accuracy potential. I only shoot prone off a bipod and a small lightweight rear bag, there are some who shoot this 6X5 off a bench, but I don’t see anyone using super high end rest like some of the common Benchrest rigs.

 

[Cofercr]

I would say work on refining your position so it becomes super repeatable. Consistently is the name of the game. I find that the slightest change in some aspect of my position prevents me from attaining the extreme level of my accuracy potential. I only shoot prone off a bipod and a small lightweight rear bag, there are some who shoot this 6X5 off a bench, but I don’t see anyone using super high end rest like some of the common Benchrest rigs.

 

[Cofercr]

well, i'm not going to bore you all with the 30 odd 6x5s i've shot recently. I've hit a wall and just cant improve. I don't know if it is all me or what. I suspect it is me because there is very little measurable difference between ammo types.
Or is the reality that this is par for the course for bipod and rear bag, and it is unlikely that one can get much better results without using a front rest (seb/sinclair) and a properly setup rear rest ??? Ive seen some of the stunning groups shown in this forum - but don't know how they were shot ...

View attachment 7158786

I totally feel your frustration. I have figured out my gun is awesome, I’m pretty consistent however, I have noticed humidity, temperatures and barometer are huge with a 22 then add some wind. I find myself looking for the right day vs just a calm wind day.

 

[Kevin1]

Anschutz 1710 HB, Leupold 6.5-20 EFR, Center X shot at 100Y
Average of the last six consecutive 5 shot group = 0.6507"

 

[jbell]

Anschutz 1710 HB, Leupold 6.5-20 EFR, Center X shot at 100Y
Average of the last six consecutive 5 shot group = 0.6507"

Can’t see the pictures, what was your best group and I’ll update the results.

 

[Kevin1]

Can’t see the pictures, what was your best group and I’ll update the results.

Not sure why you can't see it and how I can post here from imagur. I can see it on my PC but not on my mobile. My best group was 0.476"

 

[jbell]

I used the little landscape icon in the header and post right off my phone. I’ll get it updated, nice shooting!

 

[barronian]

@jbell and others thanks for the feedback. If we use the snipershide 6x5 target at 100 yds as an example, when you are holding just before a shot how much does your reticle center dot wander or bounce with your heartbeat ? do you keep it within the center diamond, within the outer diamond ? and when you fire do you still keep it within the outer diamond during recoil ? within 0.2 mil ?
I'm trying to get a handle on where to concentrate my training.

 

[barronian]

@Cofercr agreed. i bought a magnetospeed recently and have noticed just how sensitive some of the rounds are to temp changes. Interesting watching the velocity slowly change as they go from 24deg C powder temp when they come out of the house to 1degC shooting conditions. Even more interesting is i have a suspicion that they fly unpredictably when going from warm air to cold air. The way the range is setup im frequently lying in the sun at say 16 C while most of the flight path is in the shade with cold 'ground air' at 4 C and close to 100% RH.
I havent managed to find any research on this but my impression is that the rapid temp and density transition causes the flight path to deflect somewhat like sound waves do. Dont get me wrong im not trying to excuse my 6x5 results but i think it may be one more factor that makes it less predictable and hence harder to work out what i need to improve.

My average of 245 100m 5 shot groups (including the really bad ones !) is 0.97 MOA. If i take the 10 worst ones out then the average falls to 0.87.
I suspect that even if the gun was mounted in concrete (ie i'm out of the process) the sum of all other factors would still result in an average of something around 0.6 MOA. Does this sound about right ?
If i look, for example, at Eley's lot tester it would suggest that rounds such as Tenex would be outside 0.5 MOA about 10% of the time. in fact the 100% case would be >2 MOA ! This is comparable with @jaia 50 round results at 200m (c. 1.7 MOA).

Or looking at it another way Tenex statistics suggests there is something in the order of (with the gun in a vice) a 50% chance that a 5 shot group will be bigger than 0.63 MOA at 100m.

So when i can get 50% of my groups smaller than 0.63 MOA i'll be a happy man !

 

[jbell]

@jbell and others thanks for the feedback. If we use the snipershide 6x5 target at 100 yds as an example, when you are holding just before a shot how much does your reticle center dot wander or bounce with your heartbeat ? do you keep it within the center diamond, within the outer diamond ? and when you fire do you still keep it within the outer diamond during recoil ? within 0.2 mil ?
I'm trying to get a handle on where to concentrate my training.

For the most part I am very stable when I brake a shot. To try and quantify it at 100yds shooting prone my wobble is somewhere around 0.2 MOA or less, if it is more the shot doesn’t go. I have spent years playing with how tight I grip the rifle (not just my firing hand’s grip -which is almost nonexistent but rather pulling it into my shoulder, also fairly light- but how much I am loading the bipod, how much cheek pressure I am using) all of that combined creates what I am referring to as gripping the rifle. Each rifle is or has the potential to like something different, or a better way of saying it is I shoot each rifle a specific way better. But after a very long time of playing with it and shooting a LOT of different rifles I feel like I have developed a hold that works well for me with any rifle, rimfire or not.

Adjust each little aspect of your position and note the results fine tune them and then start combining the best of all of them to get your best position. Only play with 1 aspect at a time and make sure it is repeatable and most of all comfortable. Adjust the rifle to fit your body not your body to your rifle, it all starts there.

For reference here is my rimfire precision rifle setup (nothing fancy or really what you can consider an accuracy aid like a benchrest or big bags to hold the rifle):

 

[JG26_Irish]

Manage the variables. The ammo is going to be a limiting factor at some point. I like to shoot early in the mornings just because the winds are more calm at my location then. I shoot alone if I am going to go for groups because the distraction of having others around will foul up my concentration. I shoot 6x5's in a cadence with one shotabout every 45 sec. The way I look thru the scope is the same every shot. The part of my finger on the trigger is in the exact same place every shot. Breathing is the same. If your heartbeat is moving the sight picture try relaxing ypur grip a little on the rifle. I don't grip them too tight. If it is still moving the recticle, just break the shot in between the beats. Good breathing will slow your heartbeat also.

 

[barronian]

Well, i was so inspired by @jbell and @JG26_Irish that i had to make use of the windless conditions today. I started by trying to discard everything that i thought i knew about how to hold my gun - and start from the basics again. Damm good advice they gave. I can see that when i manage to remember most of the basics (npoa, trigger hand pressure, right elbow position, etc, etc ) i get better groups (best today was 0.424 at 100m ). however i still invariably forget one thing or another on at least one shot in a group
i also learnt that a waterproof shooting mat in 47 F rain isn't necessarily a good thing ! Even though i was keen I gave up when my balls got tired of swimming.
Forcast is for another 6+ days of rain
Anyway, thanks folks for taking time to give me pointers !

 

[Kevin1]

Anschutz 1710 HB, Leupold 6.5-20 EFR, Center X shot at 100Y
Average of the last six consecutive 5 shot group = 0.6507"

I can't see the pics. Let's try using "insert image"

 

[littlepod]

Well, i was so inspired by @jbell and @JG26_Irish that i had to make use of the windless conditions today. I started by trying to discard everything that i thought i knew about how to hold my gun - and start from the basics again. Damm good advice they gave. I can see that when i manage to remember most of the basics (npoa, trigger hand pressure, right elbow position, etc, etc ) i get better groups (best today was 0.424 at 100m ). however i still invariably forget one thing or another on at least one shot in a group
i also learnt that a waterproof shooting mat in 47 F rain isn't necessarily a good thing ! Even though i was keen I gave up when my balls got tired of swimming.
Forcast is for another 6+ days of rain
Anyway, thanks folks for taking time to give me pointers !

+1 so many variables on these 6x5's. Fatigue being one of them. Holding concentration for 30 shots and remembering everything is really, really hard. For me, the biggest things that changed my group size was going from a 3lb trigger to a 1lb trigger. NPOA is probably the next big thing, if I'm not doing it right, then I've seen my muzzle lift about .4mil after the shot instead of recoiling straight back, which means that there was some input into the round as it was flying out. The heartbeat thing I've tried to reduce due to better breathing techniques and not resting my cheek too hard onto the rifle, and also not loading the bipod too much either.

I just ordered a kidd single stage for my 10/22 and we'll see how that goes, going from it's old mushy 3lb trigger. My Tikka will get a new barrel in the next month or two, so it's not the pencil light barrel.

 

[barronian]

@littlepod the 200 STR has a good trigger so i cant use that as an excuse ;-) today i was really aware of how unstable i am with the rear bag and how much my NPOA varies after loading each round - def something to concentrate on next time out ! in fact if I'm realistic i'm not really shooting groups - i'm rebuilding my position and shooting 5 individual shots all aimed at the center point.
Straight back recoil is something else that im working on. I've been trying to get my shoulder-stock height correct to minimise the recoil bounce... however this position may not be the same one that dosent change the NPOA ... confusing.
Now if the rain would just stop so that i can go and learn !!!!!

 

[littlepod]

@littlepod the 200 STR has a good trigger so i cant use that as an excuse ;-) today i was really aware of how unstable i am with the rear bag and how much my NPOA varies after loading each round - def something to concentrate on next time out ! in fact if I'm realistic i'm not really shooting groups - i'm rebuilding my position and shooting 5 individual shots all aimed at the center point.
Straight back recoil is something else that im working on. I've been trying to get my shoulder-stock height correct to minimise the recoil bounce... however this position may not be the same one that dosent change the NPOA ... confusing.
Now if the rain would just stop so that i can go and learn !!!!!

Yeh I'm still struggling with NPOA myself. Given how little the 22 recoils it's misleading how off my NPOA might be. When I pull out my 308 unbraked, I notice how bad I am...

The NPOA test I've done is, get on the rifle. Close your eyes, let go of the rifle. Get back on the rifle with your eyes closed, get into the exact position you are going to shoot. Is the crosshair exactly where you left it before? Mine isn't, 99% of the time until I go and make a lot of little adjustments, then it's all great, and I need to make sure my spine is perfectly lined up so it recoils straight back, etc.

Have you lead sled your rifle and see what it really can do? Especially when you're not in a wind tunnel, any wind can really move the round @ 100 yards on a .22. .7-.8" avg is nothing to scoff about. I met someone who submitted a .5 avg here using Midas X-Act, and it's really hard to pull off, and majority of days it'll be in the .8's.

 

[barronian]

@littlepod ill try your close eyes test - i can do that from the house while im waiting for the rain to stop
Never had the STR on a leadsled. but have lots of experience of winds - the range is on a mountain side so we get lovely swirling and vertical winds. You know the sort, they announce their presence by whistling or hissing in the trees, then announce their arrival by blowing over my targets. I dont think i've ever seen the same wind direction at both ends of the range, in fact they are often literally blowing in opposite directions.

Thanks for the last paragraph

 

[barronian]

Been practicing NPOA dryfire with the "close eyes test" and adjusting my position to minimise any change of the aim point with breathing. Also found that i was changing my NPOA every time i loaded a new round (moving right elbow). So now ive shortened my LOP so that i can reach the bolt without moving my elbow. The "correct" position to get a solid NPOA dosen't feel natural yet but i've still got days of rain to practice until it does feel natural
I'm soooo impatient to go and try for real !!!!!

 

[jbell]

Good catch on the elbow movement! Also make sure your not moving your head, I see that way too often.

 

[barronian]

@jbell i havent understood just what to do with my head yet .. i generally don't put much weight on my cheek weld ... but the training advice is to close eyes and RELAX to check NPOA. if i do that then there is more weight on the cheek weld and the POA will change.
what i have been trying (dry fire) is to try and find the body position so that the change when i relax onto gun has only a vertical component. and is as small as possible. ?

 

[littlepod]

Good catch on the elbow movement! Also make sure your not moving your head, I see that way too often.

Hmm I need to check my LoP. I've only done the bicep test... I think I might need to reduce mine by 1/4".

 

[jbell]

@jbell i havent understood just what to do with my head yet .. i generally don't put much weight on my cheek weld ... but the training advice is to close eyes and RELAX to check NPOA. if i do that then there is more weight on the cheek weld and the POA will change.
what i have been trying (dry fire) is to try and find the body position so that the change when i relax onto gun has only a vertical component. and is as small as possible. ?

It really depends on how your scope is set up vs the stock vs how much cheek pressure you prefer. I use a light to medium pressure personally and set up my scope so that when I shoulder my rifle with my eyes closed my eye is in the right position for a correct sight picture. Before you can work on your NPOA and building a repeatable position you need to make sure your rifle is adjusted correctly to your body.

 

[jbell]

Hmm I need to check my LoP. I've only done the bicep test... I think I might need to reduce mine by 1/4".

I actually use a shorter LOP than most people would think is proper, I find it more comfortable over a long shooting session.

 

[jbell]

@Cofercr agreed. i bought a magnetospeed recently and have noticed just how sensitive some of the rounds are to temp changes. Interesting watching the velocity slowly change as they go from 24deg C powder temp when they come out of the house to 1degC shooting conditions. Even more interesting is i have a suspicion that they fly unpredictably when going from warm air to cold air. The way the range is setup im frequently lying in the sun at say 16 C while most of the flight path is in the shade with cold 'ground air' at 4 C and close to 100% RH.
I havent managed to find any research on this but my impression is that the rapid temp and density transition causes the flight path to deflect somewhat like sound waves do. Dont get me wrong im not trying to excuse my 6x5 results but i think it may be one more factor that makes it less predictable and hence harder to work out what i need to improve.

My average of 245 100m 5 shot groups (including the really bad ones !) is 0.97 MOA. If i take the 10 worst ones out then the average falls to 0.87.
I suspect that even if the gun was mounted in concrete (ie i'm out of the process) the sum of all other factors would still result in an average of something around 0.6 MOA. Does this sound about right ?
If i look, for example, at Eley's lot tester it would suggest that rounds such as Tenex would be outside 0.5 MOA about 10% of the time. in fact the 100% case would be >2 MOA ! This is comparable with @jaia 50 round results at 200m (c. 1.7 MOA).

Or looking at it another way Tenex statistics suggests there is something in the order of (with the gun in a vice) a 50% chance that a 5 shot group will be bigger than 0.63 MOA at 100m.

So when i can get 50% of my groups smaller than 0.63 MOA i'll be a happy man !

I thought I would circle back around to this in relation to the ammo’s capabilities. I went out for a quick trip to zero a scope I just put on a rifle last Saturday. I was shooting my Anschutz that I had specifically built for longer range stuff and chambered for Eley, it prefers Eley Match (black box) over Tenex for some reason. I have shot many great 100 yard 5 round groups with this rifle (down to just under 1/4 MOA). I shot a few groups at 100 on this trip that were pretty much on par for the rifle around 1/2 MOA, or just a fuzz over. I know Eley uses 10 round groups for their lot analysis so I decided on my last target I would see if the accuracy I was seeing in my 5 round groups would hold up for 10 rounds.
This is a random lot of Eley Match, nothing special as far as that goes. I am NOT saying I can repeat this with any regularity. My intent is to show what quality ammo is capable of.

That one round that dropped low may very well have been me, but who knows...

Here is the rifle with the new scope and my shooting setup, not exactly the most stable.

 

[barronian]

@jbell very nice group ! i admire that consistency - some day i'll be able to post a similar group !
Assuming the target is a 1" disk i see one of the differences that confuses me at times - i obviously use a different method of measuring groups. i get a ctc of 0.67" and 0.64 MOA ?

 

[jbell]

@jbell very nice group ! i admire that consistency - some day i'll be able to post a similar group !
Assuming the target is a 1" disk i see one of the differences that confuses me at times - i obviously use a different method of measuring groups. i get a ctc of 0.67" and 0.64 MOA ?

Hmm... good question, I measured it pretty quick at the range and the light was almost gone. I went and re measured in better light here in the house and is supposed to be a 1” target, but the target measures 0.987” and as best as I can tell the group is around 0.828” at the extreme edges so I was somewhere around 0.010” too small (0.622” ish group). But not really what I was getting at, I was just trying to illustrate what good ammo is capable of. I know that 1 group doesn’t prove anything by any means, and when I get home later in the week I’ll try and get back out to the range and repeat this with the Anschutz and my Vudoo. It’s an interesting conversation for sure, and really what I have always felt this thread is about (what can we do with these little 22’s).

 

[barronian]

@jbell absolutely no pointing fingers from my side !!
i was just discussing the differences that arise with different measuring methods and assumptions. At the (necessary) level of pedantry that we are discussing to analyse real accuracy and precision we dont just have gun, round and shooter variance - we are also very susceptible to differences in group measurement assumptions. Should one use outside to outside and subtract a nominal bullet diameter ? or use center to center ? or must one use a program like OnTarget TDS or Ballistic -X ? If we do use outside to outside what nominal bullet diameter should we use ? Is a ruler accurate enough or must one use a calipers ?

If we had an agreed upon, absolutely accurate and precise method of measuring our groups then we would have one less source of confusion in discussing our "accuracy". One of the main reasons that i spend time on this thread is because the 6x5 target and methodology goes a long way towards providing some consistency so that we can compare apples to apples ( even if they still aren't guaranteed to be the same species )

Interestingly (to me at least !) i have been having discussions recently with various custom and other .22 lr gunsmiths and this discussion of what is the real accuracy of a .22 lr is a real issue - even for those building some of the best in the world. Even if you are not selling a complete weapon but are designing, for example, chassis this is a problem, while marketing may be able to function on mystique, R&D need to be able test to quantify what makes a chassis better.

sorry, i'll try and put the resident nerd back to sleep !

 

[Tomiboy]

In Steve Boelter's book, "Riflemans Guide to Rimfire ammunition" he discusses how he measures group size. (Page 33) This was probably before the various target measurement programs now available. He measures the actual hole made by the round and subtracts that from the outside edge to edge measurement. You end up with a larger C-C measurement but more accurate. The hole made is always smaller than .223 or .224. This is how I measure, but I need to download one of these new fangled measuring apps!

 

[littlepod]

Took out one of the spacers from my KRG Bravo and things feel a lot better! No movement of the elbow to cycle the bolt on my T1X or my T3X, and my trigger finger is much more solid on the rifle. Moved my scope further away by 1 picatinny slot, and things are more or less the same. Picatinny slot spacing is .394" and the KRG spacer is .375. I was too lazy to further fine tune everything and didn't want to retorque, move, re-level my scope, so it's good enough for now. Will head out shooting to see how it feels behind live ammo vs the dry firing in the garage.

 

[Near miss]

This reminds me of when the host of accuratereloading made huge tests with 5000 or more ammo spent and the group sizes were measured so poorly it was almost like guessed.

Our Latest 22 Long Rifle Rim Fire Ammo Test

forums.accuratereloading.com

Particularly the normal vs. weighted vs. measured bullets test

I measured few scores with software to make my own conclucions, but it would be a huge work to do it again and make the data worth something.

About the LOP, I play with it far too much. It feels nice having it short, like having more control to the rifle. Increasing it by 0.5" I get a more square / shoulders even position but feels like the rifle is somehow too far and less controllable.

@jbell Do you shoot your rimfire like centerfire when it comes to position?

 

[barronian]

@Near miss i remember that thread :-( could have been a very interesting and useful thread/test but as you say it was destroyed by the inconsistent and incorrect group size measurements and a few other procedural inconsistencies.
Strangely he wasn't interested in learning how to measure the groups correctly

 

[barronian]

and now for some light entertainment ....
it finally stopped raining and i was really impatient to see if i'd learnt anything with all my dry fire training ...
this was the result:

in my defence, my gun was blown over between group 3 and 4 ! I could watch 2 shots fired at group 6 get blown over into group 4 !
For some reason i haven't measured the group sizes

 

[Just Chuck]

I'd like to use the Sniper's Hide 6X5 Challenge target but haven't been able to find a place to down load it. Is there a link to that?

 

[Near miss]

I'd like to use the Sniper's Hide 6X5 Challenge target but haven't been able to find a place to down load it. Is there a link to that?

It was last time noted on the previous page, post #631 I think it is.

Here is the link for you:

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/6x5-thread-v3-0.6253073/post-6952952

 

[barronian]

I'd like to use the Sniper's Hide 6X5 Challenge target but haven't been able to find a place to down load it. Is there a link to that?

message #92 has a link

 

[jbell]

This reminds me of when the host of accuratereloading made huge tests with 5000 or more ammo spent and the group sizes were measured so poorly it was almost like guessed.

Our Latest 22 Long Rifle Rim Fire Ammo Test

forums.accuratereloading.com

Particularly the normal vs. weighted vs. measured bullets test

I measured few scores with software to make my own conclucions, but it would be a huge work to do it again and make the data worth something.

About the LOP, I play with it far too much. It feels nice having it short, like having more control to the rifle. Increasing it by 0.5" I get a more square / shoulders even position but feels like the rifle is somehow too far and less controllable.

@jbell Do you shoot your rimfire like centerfire when it comes to position?

exactly the same

 

[Cuzz]

I'd like to use the Sniper's Hide 6X5 Challenge target but haven't been able to find a place to down load it. Is there a link to that?

I tried it and got 3 pages of wasted mostly black, i had to screen shot it, that worked ok.

 

[Just Chuck]

That's kinda what I did too. But now I've a copy to copy.

 

[Cuzz]

That's kinda what I did too. But now I've a copy to copy.

same here, now all i need is a gun that will shoot, been waiting on vudoo 5 weeks plus.

i should add that its at lapua being tested now . Dupposed to go back to Vudoo monday.