7.62 surplus sticking in 308

[timelinex]

So I bought a 200 pack of german surplus, for my savage fcp-k. It was more for practicing my positions, form, trigger time and less for trying to get.5MOA type shooting. Anyways, the bolt would have a harder than normal time extracting the first couple(but nothing too bad) and the brass would have slight extractor marks. I recognized this as over-pressured for my rifle, but I asked a couple of the 'knowledgable' people working at the range and they said it doesnt always signify high pressure. They said the primer looked perfect(which it did) and the bolt could be a little rough because of feeding military in a 308. Anyways, I hsot 2 or 3 more and the last one the bolt just stuck in there. I had to let it cool and do some heavy tugging to get the bolt out. Is this high pressure? I know those are all the signs of over pressured rounds <span style="font-weight: bold">BUT isnt 7.62 rated lower pressure than 308 </span>and thats why you can't run 308 in 7.62 . That doesn't make any sense then! I'll try to get a picture of the brass up tommorow.

I have had a hard time finding anything this rifle likes but match quality ammo. I have tried 2 other cheap brands(these were steel) and those both locked my bolt on one of the rounds so I stopped using them. The sad part is when they shot, Ive had really good luck with the cheaper stuff accuracy wise in my rifle. They always shot 1-2 MOA with an occasional flier. Which is really good for the purpose they had to serve.

I'm not looking for any lectures of why waste time using non match stuff. If you don't understand the point that not every time you shoot your only focus needs to be extreme precision (.5-1 moa) then please don't reply.(For example, If im shooting offhand, the worst surplus will honestly have better precision than I can achieve)

Here is the four of them:

Now here is what seems like the worst, notice the extractor marks

 

[scotharr]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

It could be any number of things and you need reloading measuring tools to figure it out. You want to do measurements on the fireformed brass, the unfired milsurp, and unfired 308WIN brass that is known good in your chamber. You would want to measure headspace, base to ogive, case head, and body diameter at several points. After comparing these measurements, the problem should become clear. Your case head before and after measurements are the most reliable way to determine if the load is over-pressure, but that would not be my first guess.

Since you have had problems with more than one type of factory ammo, it's possible that you have a chamber problem. ONce again, a lot of measurements will help you figure that out. I've seen lots of people have problems extracting steel-cased ammo. Personally, I'd stay away from that stuff.

 

[MWDG3]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

My Howa 308 won't lock on a 7.62, chamber's too tight. Could be an issue.

 

[former naval person]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Sometimes there is a reason governments sell "surplus ammo". One of them is that it doesn't meet accuracy/pressure/dimensional standards that the government contracted for. Just saying.

 

[tbugher62]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Government steel cased ammo is junk,I could never get any of it too function in my Fal or my bolt guns.

 

[dbsinh2o]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

If the German surplus you're shooting is DAG with the NATO (cross) headstamp, it should be dimensionally accurate. I'd have reservations about fouling my barrel with cupro-nickel bullets, but I wouldn't expect case sticking issues.

Have you ever used a chamber brush? If you've fired steel-cased ammo, some brands are known to leave behind some of their rust preventative lacquer coating. I'd wrap a solvent soaked patch around a .45 cleaning brush and make sure the chamber is squeaky clean. Also ensure the chamber is dry (free of oil), as this can contribute to sticking cases.

 

[7.62gunr]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

My Savage 12 has a moderately tight chamber but has never had hard extraction with surp(including DAG).
The DAG does shoot nice for what it is...I got about 1.5 MOA 5 shot groups.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

I have used a brush but only 3 times during 'break in' and one pass down. When it comes to cleaning, since I have always owned a 22 I never had to clean the bore. I feel like I don't want to mess the barrel up by dragging the nylon brush down the bore by doing it wrong but I have noone I know that can show me how. I understand that nylon is softer than steel, but I am always hearing horror stories of people messing up their bore's more through cleaning than firing. I know that sound silly, but Im learning everything on my own and alway have with shooting because noone I know does any shooting. I bought some foaming wipeout though, and will be putting that in. I don't need any scrubbing then do I?

ALSO, let me clarify. I have tried FGMM and black hills and both of those do NOT have any issues with the bolt or sticking. Does that still mean it could be because bore is too oily or dirty or another chamber problem?

Yes the ammo is DAG nato brass.

Lastly, I'm not sure how much importance this has but in all the cases of my bolt getting stuck it is NEVER the first shot. What I mean by first shot, is first shot after 5 minutes of waiting for example. So its always on a warmer/hot barrel after firing atleast one before.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Added pictures

 

[dbsinh2o]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Sounds to me like you may have some buildup in the chamber, and it gets sticky when the gun warms up.

Go get a bronze .45 cal cleaning brush, and soak a patch with Hoppes #9. Wrap the patch around the brush (it won't be a tight fit - you can use 2 patches if you want), attach a cleaning rod, and give the chamber a good scrubbing.

Chambers do get dirty, and you have to clean them. I just got back from the range and cleaned my 5R about an hour ago. After only 50 rounds, I still got some crud out of my chamber when I cleaned it as stated above.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds to me like you may have some buildup in the chamber, and it gets sticky when the gun warms up.

Go get a bronze .45 cal cleaning brush, and soak a patch with Hoppes #9. Wrap the patch around the brush (it won't be a tight fit - you can use 2 patches if you want), attach a cleaning rod, and give the chamber a good scrubbing.

Chambers do get dirty, and you have to clean them. I just got back from the range and cleaned my 5R about an hour ago. After only 50 rounds, I still got some crud out of my chamber when I cleaned it as stated above.


</div></div>
But can this be the case even though matcha ammo like FGMM doesn't get stuck? I would think if its some sticky stuff in the chamber, it would affect all ammo?

Also is the brush method needed if I use foam wipeout, I thought wipeout soaking overnight gets all the stuff undone. Especially considering the rifle is less than a month old.

Thanks for all the replies, I know it could be frustrating explaining something to someone that doesn't know some of the basics! But gotta learn somewhere!

 

[dbsinh2o]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

I don't know how many rounds you've put through your rifle, or how clean it is. I know it sounds strange, but I've cleaned residue out new guns - right out of the box.

I'm not sure about the other brands, but I know that FGMM cases seem to be polished smoother than DAG. I've also read that FGMM is sized slightly smaller, so that may account for some of the difference.

As far as cleaning products go, I've never seen anything that cleans properly without scrubbing. Whether it's your car, your gun, the shower, or the toilet - there's no such thing as "touchless" cleaning.

I've put a bunch of that DAG through my M1A, and have never had a failure to extract with it. I have seen FTEs when people shoot steel cased ammo, and then switch back to brass. Maybe your chamber is too small, but I'd still bet it's a dirty gun.

If you clean it, get a chamber mop and wrap a patch around it before you go shooting. If there's any oil or cleaner left in the chamber, that can give you problems as well.

Don't be surprised if you still get an occasional "sticky" round. I get 1 out of every 100 or so with bolt guns, but it's rare if I can't dislodge it by closing and opening the bolt handle a second time.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

For what it's worth.

7.62x51mm NATO or 308 Winchester? What's the Difference?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.308 Win vs. 7.62×51–The Straight Scoop

<span style="font-weight: bold">.308 Win vs. 7.62×51–The Straight Scoop</span>
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question “Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62×51 NATO one and the same?” The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62×51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win “Go Gauge” is 1.630&#8243; vs. 1.635&#8243; for the 7.62×51. The .308&#8242;s “No-Go” dimension is 1.634&#8243; vs. 1.6405&#8243; for a 7.62×51 “No Go” gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62×51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: “[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn’t to the .308 ‘headspace’ dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.” You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62×51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone’s 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell’s .308 vs 7.62×51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62×51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62×51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.

M118 LR and the MilSurp Ammo Option
One reason the .308 Win is so popular is the availability of very inexpensive 7.62×51 military surplus ammo. As explained in more detail above, a 7.62×51 chamber is NOT the same as a SAMMI-spec .308 Win chamber. Nonetheless it is normally safe to shoot 7.62×51 NATO-class ammo in your .308 Win because current .308 Winchester rifles are designed for higher maximum pressures.

Among the many types of military ammo sold to consumers, there is the “Good Stuff”, namely Lake City M118 LR (“Long Range”), and everything else. The M118 LR is the true milspec ammo issued to U.S. military snipers. Boxer-primed and loaded with Sierra 175gr MK projectiles, M118 LR rivals some commercial match ammo for accuracy. Tests by SniperCentral.com reported the M118 LR produced .5 MOA to .7 MOA groups in some rifles. Note: M118 LR has a thick sealant right at the case mouth. Shooters report that if you re-seat the bullets just about .020&#8243; deeper this can break the sealant and potentially improve accuracy. Normally, your best source for M118 LR is the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP), which recently sold it by the case at $399.00 for 920 rounds. The CMP is currently out of stock, but it is available online from Ammoman.com, and Impact Guns. Expect to pay a lot more, however. Ammoman sells M118 LR for $350.00 per 500, and Impact Guns charges $24.99 per 20-round box–way too much!

After the M118 LR, you have a wide choice of ammo, the best of which might deliver 1.0-1.5 MOA on average. The Australian (ADI) ammo is popular because it is reasonably accurate and it comes in handy plastic blister packs–ideal for long-term storage. Zak Smith reports he and others “are getting sub-MOA from the Australian surplus”. Regular Lake City Ammo is readily available and offers reloadable boxer-primed brass. This editor has had very good luck with certain 1988-89 lots of Berdan-primed British Radway Green ammo in individual brown boxes. It shot sub-MOA in an M1A. However some of the older Radway in ammo boxes with fitted trays is not so great. FNC (Portugese) ammo has proven reasonably accurate and reliable. Occassionally you’ll see some Hirtenberger 7.62×51. That’s worth checking out, because newer lots are Boxer-primed (reloadable) and the brass is quite good.</div></div>

 

[Emouse]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

The DAG and MEN are NATO standard ball that sends at around 2750fps for the 147gr bullet. The nickled soft steel jackets do not foul any worse than copper, or wear the bore any faster!

The MEN is outstandingly accurate ammo as tested against other military ball ammo by AI in the U.K.Having fired 1,000's of rounds if the MEN I can confirm this.

The problem you have has been seen here in commercial Rem700'S with tight .308 chambers.

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Out of a 200 rd DAG (German) battle pack I had 2 cases severely stick in the chamber of one of my M1A's. After much wrangling to remove said piece of brass, I discovered some serious indentations around the shoulder. Someone at the range said that these rounds might have been belted together for use in a machine gun.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Ok So I think the consensus is that it is the tight demensions of my match barrel. I will be cleaning on my entire rifle really well, and cleaning the brass off with steel wool. The casings aren't really smooth like match ammo, so that might be part of it.

I just wanted to make sure, I'm not causing the bore any harm by trying again and having it sticky right? I wouldn't think so since the only part that's getting abuse is the beginning of the barrel that only the casing touch's so even if it wears, thats not the part that touches the bullet and would effect accuracy...

 

[former naval person]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

No...won't hurt the "barrel"...but the chamber and lugs might suffer if the reason it is surplus is that it produces too high a pressure. Clean the chamber with a brush and solvent. A bronze brush will not harm your chamber. Stick it and twist...always in the same direction. Then mop it out. See how that works. If it continues, I wouldn't fire that in my rifle. JMHO

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No...won't hurt the "barrel"...but the chamber and lugs might suffer if the reason it is surplus is that it produces too high a pressure. Clean the chamber with a brush and solvent. A bronze brush will not harm your chamber. Stick it and twist...always in the same direction. Then mop it out. See how that works. If it continues, I wouldn't fire that in my rifle. JMHO </div></div>
Ok thanks. I have a Nylon brush already, should I go out and get a bronze one instead?

 

[BigMahi]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Whoa - everybody needs to slow down a bit. All of you exceedingly knowledgeable which is usually a good thing but right now there's a whole bunch of unsubstantiated theories being tossed around.


OP - have you done a google search regarding your ammo? You're not alone.

http://forums.theboxotruth.com/showthread.php?3426-7.62x51-vs-.308-stuck-in-chamber

Just google "7.62 bolt stuck" and you'll see a plethora of forums hashing this over and over.

The general consensus, before you undertake to scrub your chamber, is that 7.62 is about .013 longer headspace-wise than .308. Combine that with sub-par (soft & thick) brass, and what happens upon firing is the brass expands like a spring loaded camming device and wedges itself between the bolt face and rifling.


I experienced the same thing with ATI (american tactical import) 7.62 (Nato, Turkish manufacture). I tried reloading them by running them through small base dies but still seize the bolt up after firing.

Save it for another rifle or trade it.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Yea I saw that thread while doing research about my problem on google.

I figure its worth giving it another try. I'm going to give it a cleaning, and try it again. If it happens again then I'll just sell the ammo. I should be receiving FGMM 175 in 7.62x51(not 308) i think today, so wonder how that will fare in my rifle.

 

[dbsinh2o]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Does this look familiar?


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[former naval person]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Like BigMahi says...subpar ammo. There is a reason...as I said before...that the "surplus" stuff is out there. Your life and your barrel's life are too short to shoot crap ammo. You really only learn how to pull the trigger to make it go "BANG". It tells you nothing about your real accuracy learning curve. JMHO

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does this look familiar?


</div></div>
Wow, I feel bad for him! Mine is super smooth as long as its match ammo. Received my 175 FGMM 7.62x51, and 2 diff american eagle boxes to try. So next time at the range we will see how the cheaper american eagle shoots.

 

[Emouse]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out of a 200 rd DAG (German) battle pack I had 2 cases severely stick in the chamber of one of my M1A's. After much wrangling to remove said piece of brass, I discovered some serious indentations around the shoulder. Someone at the range said that these rounds might have been belted together for use in a machine gun.
</div></div>

Baloney,...DAG in battle packs are sub divided into 20rnd cartons. These are not re-packaged link ammo.

 

[Emouse]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

exactly,...shoot military ammo in military spec chambers. Its not "crap" ammo just ignorant shooters!

 

[SmokinAce]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

I have a 10fp that loves American Eagle in a pinch and it will throw it down range with no problems. AE is just not the best for accurate shooting but for plinking ammo it should be fine. I will say that mine sometimes doesn't care for the 7.62 headstamped ammo though as said above it is a a fraction longer which in my chamber makes a difference. On the flip side there is some Pakistani 7.62 that I had that my rifle loved and would shoot MOA out to 200 yards. Honestly it prefers Prvi Match 168 or 175 if I can't give it hand loads.

Anyhow try something different that is marked 308win if that is what your barrel is marked and go from there. IF you did shoot steel cased stuff make sure your chamber is clean or you could cause yourself undue headaches.

 

[Snakum]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

I thought I was the only one. LOL. I use steel cased Brown Bear in mine for practicing off hand and positional shooting, too. It's surprisingly accurate and never sticks.

Never had anything stick in mine except when shooting too hot reloads or the way too hot Georgia Arms. But that was sticking bolt due to pressure.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

The silverbear I tried didn't show any signs of sticking and then the fifth one or so was overpressured and stuck the bolt. So I gave up on those too. Also they were extremely dirty, had gun powder all over my bolt and everything else after every shot.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sometimes there is a reason governments sell "surplus ammo". One of them is that it doesn't meet accuracy/pressure/dimensional standards that the government contracted for. Just saying.</div></div>



verily so

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

I did not write this to be taken as almighty gospel. This is what a marine vietnam vet said might be the problem. By-the-way, he was a bush marine who carried an M60....<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Out of a 200 rd DAG (German) battle pack I had 2 cases severely stick in the chamber of one of my M1A's. After much wrangling to remove said piece of brass, I discovered some serious indentations around the shoulder. Someone at the range said that these rounds might have been belted together for use in a machine gun.
</div></div>

Baloney,...DAG in battle packs are sub divided into 20rnd cartons. These are not re-packaged link ammo. </div></div>

 

[bricktop]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Most German DAG I've shot (in an M1A) does yield flattened primers, but I've never had any other problems with it and it always goes bang.

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Just bring a short piece of 2x4 with you when you use that ammo. If your bolt handle falls off just get it TIG welded back on.

I wouldn't keep shooting it if it was me. It gives you an excuse to start reloading.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Yea I sold the ammo locally already. I fully cleaned out my rifle and polished a couple rounds with some steel brass, then went to the range. With my first shot, the bolt was harder to extract, so I decided its definitely not worth messing with it further.

 

[VKC]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Clean your chamber well. Make sure to wipe excess oil from the chamber and bore before shooting, as it will trap and collect debris. Otherwise, if that does work, check the chamber size and ammo specifications.

 

[timelinex]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

Yea I cleaned it very well. Two rounds of wipeout cleaned it out nicely. It's just not even worth it considering I found the American Eagle 150gr's for like 55 cents a shot. They work perfectly, have reloadable brass and are factory new. Its not even worth trying to mess around with military surplus for maybe a 5 cent savings.

 

[Russell3812]

Re: 7.62 surplus sticking in 308

I was just linked to your post through another guy that read your article. I had the same experience with the same exact ammo and same rifle. The first and second shots of the day required me to muscle the bolt open. This is the german military surplus ammo from cheaper than dirt. I won't be buying anymore of these. Too bad, it was for a good price.