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88 ELD-M in .223 Rem
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Well see, I haven't done any group testing yet. Just have heard that Lever is kind of a secret sauce for 223 with heavys in some circles. Shooting all those different charges at the same POA showed some promise, even though the charges were different. Obiviously not going to be as temp stable as an extruded powder but heading into winter I'm not too worried about it.
Never heard of it being used before but a few minutes of Googling suggest that you are correct.
Seems like the burn rate is very similar to CFE223, have you tried that also or just jumped straight in on the leverevolution?
I have a 26 inch Criterian 223 match chamber in 1/6.5 twist. I am using 24 grain of varget and getting 2700 fps . chamber is a super long throat and I am seating them jammed. shoots well out to 1000 yards.
I have both but I have more Lever. A experienced guy on another forum suggestions lever is the way to go between the two. I havent tried CFE other than with 75gr hornady bthps, velocity was killer, accuracey was the worst Ive ever seen. Didnt try and tune it or anything though. Well see it may be that it is the same case with lever but others state that is not the case. Pushing these heavy 223 pills really fast is awesome though. 75gr ELDs at 3050 fps with XBR 8208 is magic inside of 1,000y.
@jLorenzo - did you ever get back out with the lever 88 load? Curious how it went?
I ended up buying one of @padom 's wylde TL3 prefits from a guy and had great results shooting the 80.5 bergers initially and 88s more now. Looking at notes, my load with the 88s is typically 23.6gn 8208 and they're loaded at about 1.940 BTO going 2825 (~.020 off). Good velocity and accuracy.
I actually ended up needing to run another barrel on my TL3 so got one spun up from a preferred blanks cert I had here last year to match (or get close) to that one. I sent along a dummy round at .020 off with it and they came back that the 223 match reamer was actually a better choice than the wylde and we went with it.
I've got about 1200 rounds on this one now for my impact which I am still shooting today for club matches. It liked 75 ELD-M's more than 88s initially but I'm just about to give them another run in it now that the throat has opened up a bit. I had never seen any rifle stack shots as well as this one was placing the 75s so I just kind of didn't want to fight to make the 88s be better and went with them until now. Was shooting same powder charge as the 88s but just adjusted to the lands with the different bullet.
Anyhow, not sorry to bump this thread - it helped me get on track early on and the 88s are awesome.
I ended up buying one of @padom 's wylde TL3 prefits from a guy and had great results shooting the 80.5 bergers initially and 88s more now. Looking at notes, my load with the 88s is typically 23.6gn 8208 and they're loaded at about 1.940 BTO going 2825 (~.020 off). Good velocity and accuracy.
I actually ended up needing to run another barrel on my TL3 so got one spun up from a preferred blanks cert I had here last year to match (or get close) to that one. I sent along a dummy round at .020 off with it and they came back that the 223 match reamer was actually a better choice than the wylde and we went with it.
I've got about 1200 rounds on this one now for my impact which I am still shooting today for club matches. It liked 75 ELD-M's more than 88s initially but I'm just about to give them another run in it now that the throat has opened up a bit. I had never seen any rifle stack shots as well as this one was placing the 75s so I just kind of didn't want to fight to make the 88s be better and went with them until now. Was shooting same powder charge as the 88s but just adjusted to the lands with the different bullet.
Anyhow, not sorry to bump this thread - it helped me get on track early on and the 88s are awesome.
I havent done much more with the 88s. Tried Varget, CFE 223, RL 15.5 ts and lever. One Varget charge shot ok but for the most part they all shot a loose MOA. Good enough for casually banging steel. My 7.5 twist may be marginal, the holes in paper were clean though no keyholing. I have moved to Berger 85.5s for now. Shot some of the best groups Ive ever shot with the Bergers. Saving the 88s for when I rebarrel to a 7 twist. Best group was 24.4gr of Varget if I remember but not sure.
These are all different charges with the 88s. The blank paper group is the 85.5 hybrids.
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Hey,
I am going down this road. Building a Tikka. I'm thinking 20" 88 eldms. Hoping for 2700 fps. I was thinking of using a 223 Wylde chamber for versatility and a 2.6" magazine. I want to run it in a magazine but I also would like a chamber that works well with 75, 80 and 88s if possible. I was thinking I'd send in a 80 at 2.5" for my gunsmith. If 223 Wylde gets me close to that I'd rather just use a known chamber... Any thoughts. Thank you!
I am going down this road. Building a Tikka. I'm thinking 20" 88 eldms. Hoping for 2700 fps. I was thinking of using a 223 Wylde chamber for versatility and a 2.6" magazine. I want to run it in a magazine but I also would like a chamber that works well with 75, 80 and 88s if possible. I was thinking I'd send in a 80 at 2.5" for my gunsmith. If 223 Wylde gets me close to that I'd rather just use a known chamber... Any thoughts. Thank you!
If you wanna shoot the heavies have the barrel throated for that otherwise you’re looking for troubles. You might be able to get away with the 85,5 which is a very good bullet.
What throat would you recommend for 80s? I feel like the 80 at 2.5" to lands would put me in a spot where I could shoot 75, 80 and 88 out of a 2.6" mag...
I never ended up shooting these but did a lot of reading about them.
88s at 2700fps from a 20" barrel is probably not going to happen without the use of an exotic powder, the heaviest I ended up going in my 18" 223 is 75gr and can only get them to around 2750fps. Will definitely want a longer chamber than Wylde though.
As for a chamber for all three bullets, yes it should be possible. Making dummy rounds I found that a 88gr ELD-M seating to around 2.55" was the same seating depth as a 75gr ELD-M seated to the lands in my Tikka. 2.55"-2.6" is still a little short on the COAL to make full use of the case capacity though. If you were to set up 88s to a COAL of about 2.7" that would be enough to not take up case capacity but will be getting a little far out to seat 75s to the lands. You could always shoot the 73s if the 75s didn't like the jump though.
I can only speak to the 88 ELDs in 224V. In an AR-15 action, they suck. The tips have a notorious reputation for breaking.
In my bolt action rifle, they are extremely accurate.
In my bolt action rifle, they are extremely accurate.
Hornady load data is showing 2700 fps with cfe223 out of a 20" 5.56 mm NATO. Is this out of the question?
It's probably possible but that seems optimistic without a very long freebore.
If you read through this thread and the 223AI thread you'll see some people are getting very fast speeds with the likes of CFE and LeverEvolution.
If you want to use a temp stable powder youll see the majority of guys are getting much lower.
There are other bullets you could use and achieve a similar outcome 85.5gr Hybrid etc.
It's chambered in 224 Valkyrie, 26" barrel and 2690 FPS. I'm shooting Hornady factory loads.
Make a mag length dummy round with an 88 eld. Give to competent gun smith and say put the bullet .020” off the lands. Receive barrel that will shoot any ammo you want. Mine still shoots 85.5 and even 77 smk extremely well. Any tangent ogive bullet is going to be pretty jump insensitive. Hybrids can be as well.
First 88 ELD's are VERY long. They are going to be way down in the case eating up precious case capacity in a 223rem round.. IF, and only IF you REALLY want to shoot 88's in a standard 223rem then you need to throat it WAY out to put the boattail/bearing surface at its optimal position of just over the neck/shoulder junction. Thats going to be LONG.
Now, 88 ELD's are not going to be optimal in a 223rem. Especially out of a 20" barrel.. Guys shooting 88/90gr bullets in a 223rem are shooting LONG barrels and single feeding them using exotic powders and running them hot. Brass life is not a worry to them.
223rem is my FAVORITE bolt gun cartridge. 80's are optimal for it imho.. I run 80 Amax's, 80 Bergers and 80smk shooting tiny little groups @ 2950 out of a 26" bolt bolt gun. That round matches the ballistics of my 6.5cm in drop and 0.1mil difference in wind @ 800yd..
I shoot 88/90's out of my 22BR's @ 3000 which is where they need to be imho to make a difference....
Now, 88 ELD's are not going to be optimal in a 223rem. Especially out of a 20" barrel.. Guys shooting 88/90gr bullets in a 223rem are shooting LONG barrels and single feeding them using exotic powders and running them hot. Brass life is not a worry to them.
223rem is my FAVORITE bolt gun cartridge. 80's are optimal for it imho.. I run 80 Amax's, 80 Bergers and 80smk shooting tiny little groups @ 2950 out of a 26" bolt bolt gun. That round matches the ballistics of my 6.5cm in drop and 0.1mil difference in wind @ 800yd..
I shoot 88/90's out of my 22BR's @ 3000 which is where they need to be imho to make a difference....
Here's what an optimal 223rem 88 ELD round looks like. As you can see, the boattail/bearing surface is right at to just barely above the neck/shoulder junction. This maximizes case capacity and keeps you away from the donut...
But, that puts the COAL at 2.685" and only grows from there. Thats not fitting in a 223 bolt gun mag, youll need to single feed those or modify a mag... And youll need something like a 223 ISSF chamber or a throated chamber to run these.....
The push isnt worth the squeeze. You want to shoot 88/90's in 223 get a 22BR or 22GT and have a blast and take advantage of that bullet. Or, stay with a 223rem in a Wylde chamber and shoot 75/80's and also have a blast.
Wylde Chamber puts a 75 ELD at the lands around 2.48 and a 80 ELD at the lands at around 2.50-2.51. Both will run great and fit in mags...
I have my own 223rem Match reamer I designed to shoot 80's in 223rem with a little longer freebore than 223Wylde to shoot 80s optimally with the boattail/bearing surface just above the neck/shoulder junction....
But, that puts the COAL at 2.685" and only grows from there. Thats not fitting in a 223 bolt gun mag, youll need to single feed those or modify a mag... And youll need something like a 223 ISSF chamber or a throated chamber to run these.....
The push isnt worth the squeeze. You want to shoot 88/90's in 223 get a 22BR or 22GT and have a blast and take advantage of that bullet. Or, stay with a 223rem in a Wylde chamber and shoot 75/80's and also have a blast.
Wylde Chamber puts a 75 ELD at the lands around 2.48 and a 80 ELD at the lands at around 2.50-2.51. Both will run great and fit in mags...
I have my own 223rem Match reamer I designed to shoot 80's in 223rem with a little longer freebore than 223Wylde to shoot 80s optimally with the boattail/bearing surface just above the neck/shoulder junction....
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I shoot 88s in a repeater in 223 with a 26” proof carbon barrel and get 2840 fps using h4895. 23.5 grains I believe is the load. I use MDT mags which allow to be seated further out than AI mags. 2.54” is my coal
Having said all that, I think the 85.5 Berger is the best 223 bullet for a bolt gun. But the 88 is no joke. The ballistics match my 6BRA with 105 hybrids which is impressive.
Your posted numbers and barrel length and components align within 10fps of QL. That load is WAY over pressure 67,000psi...
I shoot 88s in a repeater in 223 with a 26” proof carbon barrel and get 2840 fps using h4895. 23.5 grains I believe is the load. I use MDT mags which allow to be seated further out than AI mags.
Having said all that, I think the 85.5 Berger is the best 223 bullet for a bolt gun. But the 88 is no joke. The ballistics match my 6BRAwith 105 hybrids which is impressive.
Well it works in my rifle with no pressure signs. I didnt see pressure signs until 24 grains. Shot the previous barrel and pulled it at 3000 rounds and it was still shooting amazing. Actually kept the barrel in case I get a spare action it shot that good. Shoots as good as my PRS rifle maybe even better.
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Pffft... that barely qualifies as a gas gun load here on the Hide! Bolt guns are good for at *least* 80k!
Yes what chambering are you using to get the velocities for the barrels you have?
"223rem is my FAVORITE bolt gun cartridge. 80's are optimal for it imho.. I run 80 Amax's, 80 Bergers and 80smk shooting tiny little groups @ 2950 out of a 26" bolt bolt gun. That round matches the ballistics of my 6.5cm in drop and 0.1mil difference in wind @ 800yd.."
What chambering are you using to get that result. I would be very happy with that performance.
What an asshole. Go fuck yourself.Are you reading the posts? read the very next post after the one you quoted......
hahaha.
You keep asking questions but choose not to do any reading. The answers to all your questions are in every thread you've posted in today. I see, your just looking to be spoon fed instead of learn.
He mentions in the next post the issf reamer which is a popular one for running long bullets.
However a lot of people will make a dummy cartridge and get it throated to suit. Which means a standard 223 reamer and the freebore lengthened to suit.
This post does not link chamber to velocity you stated you were getting in the 26"... Lack of mind reading ability is different from reading comprehension. Clearly you are a ring leader around here and you are permitted to be condescending by your followers.Here's what an optimal 223rem 88 ELD round looks like. As you can see, the boattail/bearing surface is right at to just barely above the neck/shoulder junction. This maximizes case capacity and keeps you away from the donut...
But, that puts the COAL at 2.685" and only grows from there. Thats not fitting in a 223 bolt gun mag, youll need to single feed those or modify a mag... And youll need something like a 223 ISSF chamber or a throated chamber to run these.....
The push isnt worth the squeeze. You want to shoot 88/90's in 223 get a 22BR or 22GT and have a blast and take advantage of that bullet. Or, stay with a 223rem in a Wylde chamber and shoot 75/80's and also have a blast.
Wylde Chamber puts a 75 ELD at the lands around 2.48 and a 80 ELD at the lands at around 2.50-2.51. Both will run great and fit in mags...
I have my own 223rem Match reamer I designed to shoot 80's in 223rem with a little longer freebore than 223Wylde to shoot 80s optimally with the boattail/bearing surface just above the neck/shoulder junction....
You my mind friend are all over the place. When you learn to read instead of spam posting across the forum the same questions that are already answered if you just read, you'll get a lot more help.
Everyone else on this forum has been polite and courteous. Every forum has a condescending troll like you. If you just answer or ignore my questions there would be know problem. Your post literally did not answer the question I posted.
If we start with Muzzle Energy and look at traditional bullet weights, we can also back into the required velocities, for example....
At 1300 ft*lbs a 55 grain bullet goes roughly 3260 fps
a 69 grain bullet goes roughly 2920 fps
a 77 grain bullet goes roughly 2766 fps
a 80 grain bullet goes roughly 2705 fps
a 88 grain bullet goes roughly 2580 fps
a 90 grain bullet goes roughly 2550 fps
You will already recognize some of your familiar favorites in terms of bullet weights and speeds, and also see how those less common ones compare when at the identical energy level.
An 88 going 2700 fps is 1425 ft*lbs (or 1932 Joules) from a design rated at roughly 1300 ft*lbs before we even bring the bbl length into the discussion.
It is easy to get lower in terms of KE, but to be honest it is difficult to go significantly higher.
It isn't impossible, but it takes a story.
For perspective, getting a 5% boost takes some effort. Getting a 10% KE increase takes lots more explaining. YMMV
At 1300 ft*lbs a 55 grain bullet goes roughly 3260 fps
a 69 grain bullet goes roughly 2920 fps
a 77 grain bullet goes roughly 2766 fps
a 80 grain bullet goes roughly 2705 fps
a 88 grain bullet goes roughly 2580 fps
a 90 grain bullet goes roughly 2550 fps
You will already recognize some of your familiar favorites in terms of bullet weights and speeds, and also see how those less common ones compare when at the identical energy level.
An 88 going 2700 fps is 1425 ft*lbs (or 1932 Joules) from a design rated at roughly 1300 ft*lbs before we even bring the bbl length into the discussion.
It is easy to get lower in terms of KE, but to be honest it is difficult to go significantly higher.
It isn't impossible, but it takes a story.
For perspective, getting a 5% boost takes some effort. Getting a 10% KE increase takes lots more explaining. YMMV
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