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- Thread starter cstmwrks
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Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
This is my standard response to "the legend":
I have called folks on this with their 500$ bone stock 1/2moa all day rifles
I said ok I put up 10K and you do, we make an appointment 2 weeks out, your range or mine 200yds, 50 rds, 1 inch targets, 1 hour, 5 groups of 10, 10 groups of 5 or whatever, all shots touch the target; loser also pays transportation, this is more like 5/8 moa but no one ever wanted my money
apparently everyone with those rifles/skills is independently wealthy, unless they are FOS ------my gut tells me it is the 2nd option
just be happy with good performance (around moa with a basic handload that does not take a lot of time or $$) and enjoy shooting/building skills
if chasing groups is what you like its called benchrest --switch to that
This is my standard response to "the legend":
I have called folks on this with their 500$ bone stock 1/2moa all day rifles
I said ok I put up 10K and you do, we make an appointment 2 weeks out, your range or mine 200yds, 50 rds, 1 inch targets, 1 hour, 5 groups of 10, 10 groups of 5 or whatever, all shots touch the target; loser also pays transportation, this is more like 5/8 moa but no one ever wanted my money
apparently everyone with those rifles/skills is independently wealthy, unless they are FOS ------my gut tells me it is the 2nd option
just be happy with good performance (around moa with a basic handload that does not take a lot of time or $$) and enjoy shooting/building skills
if chasing groups is what you like its called benchrest --switch to that
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
I think you should double check your reloads and practice more. Hopefully you didn't get a bad rifle, but its possible with any brand and any custom. Odds are certainly less with the latter.
I think you should double check your reloads and practice more. Hopefully you didn't get a bad rifle, but its possible with any brand and any custom. Odds are certainly less with the latter.
M
milo 2.0
Guest
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
A Remington owner could have posted the same title as you did.
Handloading takes time, you can get it right. With a factory gun you have to find the right combo.
Custom guns that shoot will take just about anything.
I would not be down on my factory gun if it, or I, could not hit a sub moa target at 1300 yards, especially one with a 20" barrel. Your gun was not made to do this! Keep in mind your bullet speed at that range.
Don't beat yourself up, it's Christmas.
Miles
A Remington owner could have posted the same title as you did.
Handloading takes time, you can get it right. With a factory gun you have to find the right combo.
Custom guns that shoot will take just about anything.
I would not be down on my factory gun if it, or I, could not hit a sub moa target at 1300 yards, especially one with a 20" barrel. Your gun was not made to do this! Keep in mind your bullet speed at that range.
Don't beat yourself up, it's Christmas.
Miles
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
Maybe I've missed something, but I haven't seen many (if anybody) here on SH claim a bone-stock, off-the-shelf Savage will shoot a repeatable 1/2 MOA OR shoot better than a custom rifle.
What I have seen people say is a homebuilt Savage can shoot just as good as a custom rifle, at substantially lower cost.
Maybe I've missed something, but I haven't seen many (if anybody) here on SH claim a bone-stock, off-the-shelf Savage will shoot a repeatable 1/2 MOA OR shoot better than a custom rifle.
What I have seen people say is a homebuilt Savage can shoot just as good as a custom rifle, at substantially lower cost.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Chasing groups is not my thing per say. I've only thought of it as a tool to check the ballistic stability of the ammo. One can do the same with dot drills. Just most folks seem to relate to group size.
I'm not upset that I could not hit a sub moa target at 1300 yards with my stubby 20 incher. To be honest I was some what impressed that the ammo i had kept hitting so close my spotter ( he was looking through a 3K S&B ) could not call any corrections.
So this sort of brings up another issue. So your ammo / gun combo holds maybe 1 MOA @ 100 yards. Is there such a thing as seeing the MOA improve at distance? Honest, it was suggested to me that my load was possibly "stabilizing" out at 300 yards or some such. In the back of my mind I was thinking maybe some one was pulling my leg.
It is easy to see that a sloppy gun / ammo will get worse at distance but the thought of it improving over distance had never crossed my mind. </div></div>
SO, what does this have to do with Savage?
Anyway, I've seen some Savages print .5" groups at 100 off benchrest. I have seen a Savage F/TR shot under .5" at 100. Who ever said it's not possible? The last time I checked it was Savage that won 600 and 1000 yard National Title.
I have extensively tested 17 diferent brands and types of MATCH ammo. My 20" Precision Carbine is 3/4" capable with Nosler Custom Competition 168 gr and Federal SMK 168 gr, no complaints there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Chasing groups is not my thing per say. I've only thought of it as a tool to check the ballistic stability of the ammo. One can do the same with dot drills. Just most folks seem to relate to group size.
I'm not upset that I could not hit a sub moa target at 1300 yards with my stubby 20 incher. To be honest I was some what impressed that the ammo i had kept hitting so close my spotter ( he was looking through a 3K S&B ) could not call any corrections.
So this sort of brings up another issue. So your ammo / gun combo holds maybe 1 MOA @ 100 yards. Is there such a thing as seeing the MOA improve at distance? Honest, it was suggested to me that my load was possibly "stabilizing" out at 300 yards or some such. In the back of my mind I was thinking maybe some one was pulling my leg.
It is easy to see that a sloppy gun / ammo will get worse at distance but the thought of it improving over distance had never crossed my mind. </div></div>
SO, what does this have to do with Savage?
Anyway, I've seen some Savages print .5" groups at 100 off benchrest. I have seen a Savage F/TR shot under .5" at 100. Who ever said it's not possible? The last time I checked it was Savage that won 600 and 1000 yard National Title.
I have extensively tested 17 diferent brands and types of MATCH ammo. My 20" Precision Carbine is 3/4" capable with Nosler Custom Competition 168 gr and Federal SMK 168 gr, no complaints there.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
If your gun doesn't shoot under 1MOA and is a heavy barreled gun, maybe you should look at pillar bedding it, and also may want to check that the barrel channel is clear and not touching the stock, that the tension on the action screws and that the base and rings are tight. Sometimes something loosens over use, and sometimes the stock filler can relax over time- not all stocks have aluminum pillars.
How many rounds do you have through it and what caliber is it?
If there is a factory load the gun likes, you may want to try to look at that load for a OAL.
From what I've heard, some guns like to be .005" off the lands, others may like to be further out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FROM THE NOSLER page:
For the last several decades, the general rule of thumb was the closer you seated the bullet to the lands, the better the accuracy. Currently, it is understood that this isn’t always true. It is true that some bullets and some rifles perform best when bullets are seated out long enough to touch the lands, but other bullets perform best when they have a certain amount of “jump” to the lands. The only rule is: there is no rule.
An exaggerated example showing two different seating depths with the same bullet.
The best way to find which OAL works best with a particular bullet in your rifle is to load and shoot what is called a “ladder.” To load a ladder, first settle on a powder and bullet combination which already provides a high level of accuracy. Next, decide upon a series of different lengths that you want to experiment with. An easy way to start is to begin loading cartridges to your rifle’s seating depth and then load your cartridges progressively shorter in increments of a few thousandths. Load three cartridges at each length. Be sure to load each cartridge exactly the same except for length. When you are testing and developing loads, you must only change one variable at a time. Now, go to the range and shoot a three shot group with the cartridges of each different length. Whichever length produces the smallest group is the length to use for that bullet in your rifle.
</div></div>
If your gun doesn't shoot under 1MOA and is a heavy barreled gun, maybe you should look at pillar bedding it, and also may want to check that the barrel channel is clear and not touching the stock, that the tension on the action screws and that the base and rings are tight. Sometimes something loosens over use, and sometimes the stock filler can relax over time- not all stocks have aluminum pillars.
How many rounds do you have through it and what caliber is it?
If there is a factory load the gun likes, you may want to try to look at that load for a OAL.
From what I've heard, some guns like to be .005" off the lands, others may like to be further out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FROM THE NOSLER page:
For the last several decades, the general rule of thumb was the closer you seated the bullet to the lands, the better the accuracy. Currently, it is understood that this isn’t always true. It is true that some bullets and some rifles perform best when bullets are seated out long enough to touch the lands, but other bullets perform best when they have a certain amount of “jump” to the lands. The only rule is: there is no rule.
An exaggerated example showing two different seating depths with the same bullet.
The best way to find which OAL works best with a particular bullet in your rifle is to load and shoot what is called a “ladder.” To load a ladder, first settle on a powder and bullet combination which already provides a high level of accuracy. Next, decide upon a series of different lengths that you want to experiment with. An easy way to start is to begin loading cartridges to your rifle’s seating depth and then load your cartridges progressively shorter in increments of a few thousandths. Load three cartridges at each length. Be sure to load each cartridge exactly the same except for length. When you are testing and developing loads, you must only change one variable at a time. Now, go to the range and shoot a three shot group with the cartridges of each different length. Whichever length produces the smallest group is the length to use for that bullet in your rifle.
</div></div>
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
Seriously? Sounds more like a personal problem than a savage problem. LOL
Seriously? Sounds more like a personal problem than a savage problem. LOL
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never said it was a savage problem </div></div>
Isn't that what the thread title and first few paragraphs suggest, though?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never said it was a savage problem </div></div>
Isn't that what the thread title and first few paragraphs suggest, though?
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
My Savage 116 shoots under 1 MOA all day with lots of loads. These are 100 yard targets:
FH
EDIT:
This is my .30-06 back-up hunting rifle. My go-to is a .308 WIn SPS SS sportier:
My Savage 116 shoots under 1 MOA all day with lots of loads. These are 100 yard targets:
FH
EDIT:
This is my .30-06 back-up hunting rifle. My go-to is a .308 WIn SPS SS sportier:
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
You make get beaten up a bit posting 3 shot groups, I know LL made a rule/standard that it had to be 5 shot groups in order to post any accuracy claim.
My old man wisdom is that in order to shoot well it is a combination of the following: 1/3 shooter, 1/3 ammo, and 1/3 the rifle. Reloading is an art form in itself, I have not been able not to shoot under 1 MOA with any rifle before. But I generally inspect my rifles far past the norm than others do. Check lugs, place the barrel on a lathe check for unbalances, check action threads,..etc It is really rare with today's manufacturing to produce a rifle that is not capable of 1 MOA at 100yds. Every once in awhile you get a dud..like bore off center axis or whatever, but this is a rarity. Just my 2 cents.
You make get beaten up a bit posting 3 shot groups, I know LL made a rule/standard that it had to be 5 shot groups in order to post any accuracy claim.
My old man wisdom is that in order to shoot well it is a combination of the following: 1/3 shooter, 1/3 ammo, and 1/3 the rifle. Reloading is an art form in itself, I have not been able not to shoot under 1 MOA with any rifle before. But I generally inspect my rifles far past the norm than others do. Check lugs, place the barrel on a lathe check for unbalances, check action threads,..etc It is really rare with today's manufacturing to produce a rifle that is not capable of 1 MOA at 100yds. Every once in awhile you get a dud..like bore off center axis or whatever, but this is a rarity. Just my 2 cents.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flatbush Harry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My Savage 116 shoots under 1 MOA all day with lots of loads. These are 100 yard targets:
</div></div>
Stock Savage? That gives me hope. I use the IMR 4064 and a 186 gr bullet. just not as hot a load. </div></div>
Mine is bone stock, an early AccuStock, and I have a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 with Rapid Z600 reticle mounted with Leupy STD rings and bases. Oh, and I'm off to the man-cave to make up some 178gr A-MAXs with RL19 and IMR4350 for potential hunting loads. As the pic showed, it works well with Barnes Triple Shocks so I'm good to go for elk and such.
Merry Christmas to you and yours,
FH
FH
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flatbush Harry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My Savage 116 shoots under 1 MOA all day with lots of loads. These are 100 yard targets:
</div></div>
Stock Savage? That gives me hope. I use the IMR 4064 and a 186 gr bullet. just not as hot a load. </div></div>
Mine is bone stock, an early AccuStock, and I have a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 with Rapid Z600 reticle mounted with Leupy STD rings and bases. Oh, and I'm off to the man-cave to make up some 178gr A-MAXs with RL19 and IMR4350 for potential hunting loads. As the pic showed, it works well with Barnes Triple Shocks so I'm good to go for elk and such.
Merry Christmas to you and yours,
FH
FH
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You make get beaten up a bit posting 3 shot groups, I know LL made a rule/standard that it had to be 5 shot groups in order to post any accuracy claim.
My old man wisdom is that in order to shoot well it is a combination of the following: 1/3 shooter, 1/3 ammo, and 1/3 the rifle. Reloading is an art form in itself, I have not been able not to shoot under 1 MOA with any rifle before. But I generally inspect my rifles far past the norm than others do. Check lugs, place the barrel on a lathe check for unbalances, check action threads,..etc It is really rare with today's manufacturing to produce a rifle that is not capable of 1 MOA at 100yds. Every once in awhile you get a dud..like bore off center axis or whatever, but this is a rarity. Just my 2 cents. </div></div>
I apologize to all that I offended with the three shot groups. While developing loads, I make up 9 rounds in each load...that gives me three 3-shot groups to check for usefulness. I try to save time and money that way as well as having fewer not-very-good loads to disassemble. I take your admonition on behalf of LL and won't post 3-shot groups again.
Merry Christmas to you and yours,
FH
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You make get beaten up a bit posting 3 shot groups, I know LL made a rule/standard that it had to be 5 shot groups in order to post any accuracy claim.
My old man wisdom is that in order to shoot well it is a combination of the following: 1/3 shooter, 1/3 ammo, and 1/3 the rifle. Reloading is an art form in itself, I have not been able not to shoot under 1 MOA with any rifle before. But I generally inspect my rifles far past the norm than others do. Check lugs, place the barrel on a lathe check for unbalances, check action threads,..etc It is really rare with today's manufacturing to produce a rifle that is not capable of 1 MOA at 100yds. Every once in awhile you get a dud..like bore off center axis or whatever, but this is a rarity. Just my 2 cents. </div></div>
I apologize to all that I offended with the three shot groups. While developing loads, I make up 9 rounds in each load...that gives me three 3-shot groups to check for usefulness. I try to save time and money that way as well as having fewer not-very-good loads to disassemble. I take your admonition on behalf of LL and won't post 3-shot groups again.
Merry Christmas to you and yours,
FH
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
Bone stock at 300 yards, BA 110, hand loads.
sorry 4 shot groups, all on the same day back to back.
Diego What can I say!
Bone stock at 300 yards, BA 110, hand loads.
sorry 4 shot groups, all on the same day back to back.
Diego What can I say!
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
I saw a show where military armorers were test firing rifles for accuracy- they were locked down in a vise, of some sort...
Now, I know a lot of guys think they're steady as a rock ( I'm not one of them), and that shooter error may not play a role in their groups.
But I think if one is discussing a RIFLE's capability- and not the shooter's- isn't the only way to do this definitively to lock the rifle down in a vise, and remove shooter error entirely?
When we're talking about fractions of a minute of angle, I don't think that a human being handling the weapon is a perfect indicator of its inherent accuracy.
I saw a show where military armorers were test firing rifles for accuracy- they were locked down in a vise, of some sort...
Now, I know a lot of guys think they're steady as a rock ( I'm not one of them), and that shooter error may not play a role in their groups.
But I think if one is discussing a RIFLE's capability- and not the shooter's- isn't the only way to do this definitively to lock the rifle down in a vise, and remove shooter error entirely?
When we're talking about fractions of a minute of angle, I don't think that a human being handling the weapon is a perfect indicator of its inherent accuracy.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your gun doesn't shoot under 1MOA and is a heavy barreled gun, maybe you should look at pillar bedding it, and also may want to check that the barrel channel is clear and not touching the stock, that the tension on the action screws and that the base and rings are tight. Sometimes something loosens over use, and sometimes the stock filler can relax over time- not all stocks have aluminum pillars.
How many rounds do you have through it and what caliber is it?
If there is a factory load the gun likes, you may want to try to look at that load for a OAL.
From what I've heard, some guns like to be .005" off the lands, others may like to be further out.
</div></div>
It is a heavy barrel with a Choate stock. It floats with no contact with the stock. I have had issues with my scope rings but that sends things off the charts when they are loose. Last few visits to the range was testing different seating depths. There would always be a change that showed promise, but each return trip would void that promise and leave me starting over again..
Right now about the only component inconsistency I have left is the powder. Same type.. just about every pound is from a different lot. They were bought over a period of three years to kinda stock up. </div></div>
Are you using a Bipod and sandsock under the rear of the stock for elevation?
How many rounds on the barrel?
What powder, caliber, and bullet?
There are powders more and less ideal for a given caliber, and bullet brands, types and weights that are probably better for the twist rate of your barrel.
What type of scope are you using?
Are you adjusting for paralax?
<span style="font-weight: bold">
There are so many variables that effect accuracy that you have to go through a whole troubleshooting matrix to narrow it down. </span>
I also saw a guy here study different primers- in his test CCI and Remington primers tested best. I would say edge to CCI for multiple good primers. He showed that simply changing primers changed his results (group size and extreme spread). Of course this was on a smaller scale (maybe .25MOA).
1300 yards is a hell of a long way for a 10" target with a 20" (GUESS here .308). To be pissed because you couldn't hit it, is probably expecting too much- your rounds may be subsonic- meaning your groups open up.
I remember a 3-5MPH wind day- making head shots on iron maidens at 700M easily with an M24, but that's more the exception than the rule. Most days wind is higher, and that's not happening so easy. Hitting a Larue sniper target at even 1150 meters with an M24 on an average day is pretty DAMN good shooting if you can do it in less than 3 rounds. Past 800m the hits get harder to make.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your gun doesn't shoot under 1MOA and is a heavy barreled gun, maybe you should look at pillar bedding it, and also may want to check that the barrel channel is clear and not touching the stock, that the tension on the action screws and that the base and rings are tight. Sometimes something loosens over use, and sometimes the stock filler can relax over time- not all stocks have aluminum pillars.
How many rounds do you have through it and what caliber is it?
If there is a factory load the gun likes, you may want to try to look at that load for a OAL.
From what I've heard, some guns like to be .005" off the lands, others may like to be further out.
</div></div>
It is a heavy barrel with a Choate stock. It floats with no contact with the stock. I have had issues with my scope rings but that sends things off the charts when they are loose. Last few visits to the range was testing different seating depths. There would always be a change that showed promise, but each return trip would void that promise and leave me starting over again..
Right now about the only component inconsistency I have left is the powder. Same type.. just about every pound is from a different lot. They were bought over a period of three years to kinda stock up. </div></div>
Are you using a Bipod and sandsock under the rear of the stock for elevation?
How many rounds on the barrel?
What powder, caliber, and bullet?
There are powders more and less ideal for a given caliber, and bullet brands, types and weights that are probably better for the twist rate of your barrel.
What type of scope are you using?
Are you adjusting for paralax?
<span style="font-weight: bold">
There are so many variables that effect accuracy that you have to go through a whole troubleshooting matrix to narrow it down. </span>
I also saw a guy here study different primers- in his test CCI and Remington primers tested best. I would say edge to CCI for multiple good primers. He showed that simply changing primers changed his results (group size and extreme spread). Of course this was on a smaller scale (maybe .25MOA).
1300 yards is a hell of a long way for a 10" target with a 20" (GUESS here .308). To be pissed because you couldn't hit it, is probably expecting too much- your rounds may be subsonic- meaning your groups open up.
I remember a 3-5MPH wind day- making head shots on iron maidens at 700M easily with an M24, but that's more the exception than the rule. Most days wind is higher, and that's not happening so easy. Hitting a Larue sniper target at even 1150 meters with an M24 on an average day is pretty DAMN good shooting if you can do it in less than 3 rounds. Past 800m the hits get harder to make.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
I have a 10FP that shoots closer to 1/4moa than half. Believe that shit or not, I don't care. I have multiple top 3 finishes in matches with it, and a slew of people that's seen it do it. It's stock Salvage barrel bedded in a Manners T3 stock, with a SSS trigger. It shoots so good, that I'm afraid when the barrel goes in it because I just can't imagine another barrel out performing this one.
Anytime you want to be absolutely mind blown by a factory BA Salvage, come to Bham. I'll even let you shoot it.
I have a 10FP that shoots closer to 1/4moa than half. Believe that shit or not, I don't care. I have multiple top 3 finishes in matches with it, and a slew of people that's seen it do it. It's stock Salvage barrel bedded in a Manners T3 stock, with a SSS trigger. It shoots so good, that I'm afraid when the barrel goes in it because I just can't imagine another barrel out performing this one.
Anytime you want to be absolutely mind blown by a factory BA Salvage, come to Bham. I'll even let you shoot it.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
I will tell you this much:
Those 168 grain BTHP from Wideners are NOT match grade bullets.
They are Prvi-Partizan bullets and are very inconsistent. Just look at the base of the bullet.
They are about 1.5 MOA bullets on a good day in both my 5R and my savage 12 with lothar-walther match barrel.
If you were to use Hornady 168 match HPBT and between 44 to 44.5 grains of varget, you would probably shoot more .5 moa groups.
Shitty bullets equal shitty groups.
I will tell you this much:
Those 168 grain BTHP from Wideners are NOT match grade bullets.
They are Prvi-Partizan bullets and are very inconsistent. Just look at the base of the bullet.
They are about 1.5 MOA bullets on a good day in both my 5R and my savage 12 with lothar-walther match barrel.
If you were to use Hornady 168 match HPBT and between 44 to 44.5 grains of varget, you would probably shoot more .5 moa groups.
Shitty bullets equal shitty groups.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
I would recommend varget for a powder option. I would also recommend SMK or Amax bullets. I ran 168 and 175 SMK's through my 10fp, though it was a 24" barrel, with fantastic results. Edge to the Amax in mine. Also my savage liked being loaded about .010" into the lands, as opposed to jumping to the lands. I ran about 44.5gr of varget behind the 168's and about 45gr behind the 175's. These were the two best powder charges that I found. Have you tried a ladder test with the 4064 powder? Reloading is an art form, but if you take some time and check everything out, then you'll probably find something that works for you. Good luck
I would recommend varget for a powder option. I would also recommend SMK or Amax bullets. I ran 168 and 175 SMK's through my 10fp, though it was a 24" barrel, with fantastic results. Edge to the Amax in mine. Also my savage liked being loaded about .010" into the lands, as opposed to jumping to the lands. I ran about 44.5gr of varget behind the 168's and about 45gr behind the 175's. These were the two best powder charges that I found. Have you tried a ladder test with the 4064 powder? Reloading is an art form, but if you take some time and check everything out, then you'll probably find something that works for you. Good luck
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
I was tempted to buy a bag of 500, but I found a bag of 100 on Graf's.
I bought them, though the price was nearly the same as a quality bullet, just to see if I could get 1 moa for practice.
As noted, I could not. If you were to look at the very base of the bullet (the actual bottom), you would see a very dimpled surface. The base of the bullet is extremely important when it exits the bore, as a jacked up base will cause the bullet to be "kicked" off center as it exits. The reason for the accuracy being reasonable at extended ranges is that the bullet will "go to sleep" after a distance. The bullet will stop wobbling in flight and fly fairly true, but that initial kick in the pants as it leaves the bore plays havoc at short range.
I was tempted to buy a bag of 500, but I found a bag of 100 on Graf's.
I bought them, though the price was nearly the same as a quality bullet, just to see if I could get 1 moa for practice.
As noted, I could not. If you were to look at the very base of the bullet (the actual bottom), you would see a very dimpled surface. The base of the bullet is extremely important when it exits the bore, as a jacked up base will cause the bullet to be "kicked" off center as it exits. The reason for the accuracy being reasonable at extended ranges is that the bullet will "go to sleep" after a distance. The bullet will stop wobbling in flight and fly fairly true, but that initial kick in the pants as it leaves the bore plays havoc at short range.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">
There are so many variables that effect accuracy that you have to go through a whole troubleshooting matrix to narrow it down. </span>
</div></div>
Stock 10-FP with accu trigger. 20" hvy brl with a brake .308 cal and 1100 rounds down the barrel. Folding stock has a rear elevation adjustment foot and I do use it. Harris bipod up front. 10 X fixed mil dot by Bushnell.. Common weaver scope mounts on top of a single piece 20 moa base mounted on top of the action.
IMR 4064 43.5 Federal 210 primers 168 gr BTHP bulk from wideners R-P brass. Turned necks and .0135' thick if I recall.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1300 yards is a hell of a long way for a 10" target with a 20" (GUESS here .308). To be pissed because you couldn't hit it, is probably expecting too much- your rounds may be subsonic- meaning your groups open up.
</div></div>
I was not pissed... I took it as strange that my ammo that seamed to hold so poorly at over 1 MOA @ 100 yards could land so close to a 10" target at 1300 yards that my spotter could not call out any corrections. He has way better optics than me and has been calling shots for years.
I would have thought at that distance you would see obvious hits high, low, left, right and by a foot or two not inches. </div></div>
Couple things beside the obvious bullet concern people raised, and valid thoughts on switching powder (according to Hodgdon's online reloading data- 4064 is slightly less optimal for .308 than Varget, and more importantly 4064 produces ~9000CUP's higher pressure for the same ballpark velocity. More pressure is not going to help the barrel shoot better either. Pick up some 175 grain Sierra Match Kings - I believe the savage's are rifled 1-10 twist (which is fast for heavier bullets), these are considered more accurate at longer range. Try 43grains of varget seated .010 off the lands as a starting load, and if you don't see pressure signs and can push 44 or 45 grains successfully, why not? especially when trying to push a 20" .308 to 1300 yards. <The 210M primer is a little softer according to what I've read, so CCI#34's might help if your pressure signs are in the primer and not the case.
No comment on a sandsock- if you don't have one, get one. (I use beans because they are light, other people use sand, because it's a little more stable). People absolutely shoot better with a sandsock.
If your muzzle brake is leaded up, or not mounted symetrical, that can cause fliers and erratic shot groups.
As far as your friend trying to spot your rounds at 1300 yards- there's no wonder he was having trouble- the 20" .308 is not going to be supersonic at 1300yards, and there is no trace when the bullet is sub-sonic. So realistically it's going to be tough to spot rounds for that rifle past ~950-1000yards. Some guys with a lot of experience and a good mind for it can guess where the bullet will be based on where they lose trace, taking into account range, and bullet trajectory, but there are probably only 60-100 of those people in the world who are actually any good at it- people like sniper instructors who spend all year on glass spotting the same basic bullet weight and velocity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">
There are so many variables that effect accuracy that you have to go through a whole troubleshooting matrix to narrow it down. </span>
</div></div>
Stock 10-FP with accu trigger. 20" hvy brl with a brake .308 cal and 1100 rounds down the barrel. Folding stock has a rear elevation adjustment foot and I do use it. Harris bipod up front. 10 X fixed mil dot by Bushnell.. Common weaver scope mounts on top of a single piece 20 moa base mounted on top of the action.
IMR 4064 43.5 Federal 210 primers 168 gr BTHP bulk from wideners R-P brass. Turned necks and .0135' thick if I recall.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1300 yards is a hell of a long way for a 10" target with a 20" (GUESS here .308). To be pissed because you couldn't hit it, is probably expecting too much- your rounds may be subsonic- meaning your groups open up.
</div></div>
I was not pissed... I took it as strange that my ammo that seamed to hold so poorly at over 1 MOA @ 100 yards could land so close to a 10" target at 1300 yards that my spotter could not call out any corrections. He has way better optics than me and has been calling shots for years.
I would have thought at that distance you would see obvious hits high, low, left, right and by a foot or two not inches. </div></div>
Couple things beside the obvious bullet concern people raised, and valid thoughts on switching powder (according to Hodgdon's online reloading data- 4064 is slightly less optimal for .308 than Varget, and more importantly 4064 produces ~9000CUP's higher pressure for the same ballpark velocity. More pressure is not going to help the barrel shoot better either. Pick up some 175 grain Sierra Match Kings - I believe the savage's are rifled 1-10 twist (which is fast for heavier bullets), these are considered more accurate at longer range. Try 43grains of varget seated .010 off the lands as a starting load, and if you don't see pressure signs and can push 44 or 45 grains successfully, why not? especially when trying to push a 20" .308 to 1300 yards. <The 210M primer is a little softer according to what I've read, so CCI#34's might help if your pressure signs are in the primer and not the case.
No comment on a sandsock- if you don't have one, get one. (I use beans because they are light, other people use sand, because it's a little more stable). People absolutely shoot better with a sandsock.
If your muzzle brake is leaded up, or not mounted symetrical, that can cause fliers and erratic shot groups.
As far as your friend trying to spot your rounds at 1300 yards- there's no wonder he was having trouble- the 20" .308 is not going to be supersonic at 1300yards, and there is no trace when the bullet is sub-sonic. So realistically it's going to be tough to spot rounds for that rifle past ~950-1000yards. Some guys with a lot of experience and a good mind for it can guess where the bullet will be based on where they lose trace, taking into account range, and bullet trajectory, but there are probably only 60-100 of those people in the world who are actually any good at it- people like sniper instructors who spend all year on glass spotting the same basic bullet weight and velocity.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
Buy decent components, don't go trying to chase the ragged edge of accuracy, and stick with what works.
My handloading method is retardedly boring, and while I lack the experience of having tried a billion different combinations to know how many ways one's recipe can suck, I already know what works. Varget, SMKs, Lapua brass, and FGMM primers. For my rifle, loading depth and charge weight are basically irrelevant - it'll shoot almost anything within reason.
Buy cheap bullets, use bad parts, get lame accuracy. Know where to save money, and where to spend it.
Buy decent components, don't go trying to chase the ragged edge of accuracy, and stick with what works.
My handloading method is retardedly boring, and while I lack the experience of having tried a billion different combinations to know how many ways one's recipe can suck, I already know what works. Varget, SMKs, Lapua brass, and FGMM primers. For my rifle, loading depth and charge weight are basically irrelevant - it'll shoot almost anything within reason.
Buy cheap bullets, use bad parts, get lame accuracy. Know where to save money, and where to spend it.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
well this sounds farmiliar on a few levels. i work a a gun range and have made a few really good deals on guns that just will not shoot! then with some time behind the trigger all of the sudden they start behaving.
as far as 1\2 moa savage i have a 110ba in 338 and it has consistantly shot .6 moa for the last 470 rounds. i have several hundred groups that are averaged out to be .6 and several trophys in the reloading room that prove teh consistancy of the gun.
bone stock action stock and barrel. only thing that was changed was teh grip for a fatter one.
hope you have better luck if you are in my neck of the woods i will take you out and show you the gun and the information i have collected on this gun and let you shoot it. good luck getting your gun sorted
well this sounds farmiliar on a few levels. i work a a gun range and have made a few really good deals on guns that just will not shoot! then with some time behind the trigger all of the sudden they start behaving.
as far as 1\2 moa savage i have a 110ba in 338 and it has consistantly shot .6 moa for the last 470 rounds. i have several hundred groups that are averaged out to be .6 and several trophys in the reloading room that prove teh consistancy of the gun.
bone stock action stock and barrel. only thing that was changed was teh grip for a fatter one.
hope you have better luck if you are in my neck of the woods i will take you out and show you the gun and the information i have collected on this gun and let you shoot it. good luck getting your gun sorted
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as far as 1\2 moa savage i have a 110ba in 338 and it has consistantly shot .6 moa for the last 470 rounds. i have several hundred groups that are averaged out to be .6 and several trophys in the reloading room that prove teh consistancy of the gun.</div></div>
Very familiar. Working on OCW the other day with the exact same rifle, several groups at 300 yards were at or under 1/2 MOA and I'm still getting used to the ergonomics, the recoil, the trigger, the scope, was sitting not prone, wind was kicking up from 5-8 mph and I had more than a handful of 3 shot groups where two bullets were touching then there'd be a flyer. Could be due to excess headspace from new brass vs. fire formed (some rounds were new brass, some where loaded twice so the case fit tighter in the chamber), rear bag adjustment.
Problem is workable. So far, with less than 50 rounds down the pipe, I can see this gun being at least as accurate as my Rem 700s, all of which are tunable below 1/2 MOA and I have one .308 PSS that consistently makes cloverleafs, or can. I'm just not that good a marksman, consistently.
Savage is making a product - commercially - as good as any other manufacturer so far as I can tell. You want to spend $4500 for a custom-made one-off, fine. But for $1800 I'd put this against any of those guns and will soon once I figure out the best load for it, a process we all go through.
YMMV.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as far as 1\2 moa savage i have a 110ba in 338 and it has consistantly shot .6 moa for the last 470 rounds. i have several hundred groups that are averaged out to be .6 and several trophys in the reloading room that prove teh consistancy of the gun.</div></div>
Very familiar. Working on OCW the other day with the exact same rifle, several groups at 300 yards were at or under 1/2 MOA and I'm still getting used to the ergonomics, the recoil, the trigger, the scope, was sitting not prone, wind was kicking up from 5-8 mph and I had more than a handful of 3 shot groups where two bullets were touching then there'd be a flyer. Could be due to excess headspace from new brass vs. fire formed (some rounds were new brass, some where loaded twice so the case fit tighter in the chamber), rear bag adjustment.
Problem is workable. So far, with less than 50 rounds down the pipe, I can see this gun being at least as accurate as my Rem 700s, all of which are tunable below 1/2 MOA and I have one .308 PSS that consistently makes cloverleafs, or can. I'm just not that good a marksman, consistently.
Savage is making a product - commercially - as good as any other manufacturer so far as I can tell. You want to spend $4500 for a custom-made one-off, fine. But for $1800 I'd put this against any of those guns and will soon once I figure out the best load for it, a process we all go through.
YMMV.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
The very best, and first thing you should do with any Salvage is ditch that piece of shit stock they sit in. Putting mine in the Manners stock really changed everything. It just feels like a real gun now.
The very best, and first thing you should do with any Salvage is ditch that piece of shit stock they sit in. Putting mine in the Manners stock really changed everything. It just feels like a real gun now.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will tell you this much:
Those 168 grain BTHP from Wideners are NOT match grade bullets.
They are Prvi-Partizan bullets and are very inconsistent. Just look at the base of the bullet.
They are about 1.5 MOA bullets on a good day in both my 5R and my savage 12 with lothar-walther match barrel.
If you were to use Hornady 168 match HPBT and between 44 to 44.5 grains of varget, you would probably shoot more .5 moa groups.
Shitty bullets equal shitty groups. </div></div>
+10 on that, I had 200 of these Widener's "Sniper" bullets- 175gr BTHP's that were absolutely horrible. I was so angry for wasting my time loading them! After some research, I too, found they are just Prvi bullets. My bad for not doing my homework before!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will tell you this much:
Those 168 grain BTHP from Wideners are NOT match grade bullets.
They are Prvi-Partizan bullets and are very inconsistent. Just look at the base of the bullet.
They are about 1.5 MOA bullets on a good day in both my 5R and my savage 12 with lothar-walther match barrel.
If you were to use Hornady 168 match HPBT and between 44 to 44.5 grains of varget, you would probably shoot more .5 moa groups.
Shitty bullets equal shitty groups. </div></div>
+10 on that, I had 200 of these Widener's "Sniper" bullets- 175gr BTHP's that were absolutely horrible. I was so angry for wasting my time loading them! After some research, I too, found they are just Prvi bullets. My bad for not doing my homework before!
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To date I've never caught a glimps of trace. Even my buddy seldom sees the trace. For the most part we both work off the low tech method of dust kick up at the impact point.
</div></div>
Make sure make a sandsock and integrate it into your shooting. The rear bag isolates your muscles and pulse from the stock so where your pulse sends the reticle up and down 3/8MOA, with the sandsock, wobble zone might be 1/8" or less. The sandsock is critical to precision shooting and that's why every serious precision shooter has one.
Sandsock (basic description)
They don't have to be sand- the guy below, says field corn, I use light dried beans. Sand works better, but I don't want to carry 5 lbs of sand if I can use something lighter that works 80% as well.
<span style="font-weight: bold">On Trace</span>
Trace you can spot sometimes even inside 300 meters, but certainly should be able to spot almost always (except on very windy days) at 300-900M.
If you have a spotting scope worth a crap, position yourself just right and rear of the shooter as close to the bore axis as possible, set the scope to ~18 power (somewhere in the 16-20x range), focus on the target, or bring it back just about 1/3 of the way toward your location, so the target is just barely blurred. Mount the spotter in a tripod that is firmly mounted so that there is no shake in the scope [this might take some rigging of your tripod but it is critical], then look through the scope with both eyes open, not touching the scope with your forehead, cover your non scope eye with your hand, but don't close either eye.
You should see it. The brake won't help because blast will cause you to want to close your eye. Sound suppressors for this reason really make seeing trace more reliable and easy, but that doesn't mean it can't be done all the way up to 50BMG without a can. With the 50 you just get behind the shooter sitting so you're looking over the gun, rather than off to the side getting your world all fucked up by the blast and flying dirt and grass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To date I've never caught a glimps of trace. Even my buddy seldom sees the trace. For the most part we both work off the low tech method of dust kick up at the impact point.
</div></div>
Make sure make a sandsock and integrate it into your shooting. The rear bag isolates your muscles and pulse from the stock so where your pulse sends the reticle up and down 3/8MOA, with the sandsock, wobble zone might be 1/8" or less. The sandsock is critical to precision shooting and that's why every serious precision shooter has one.
Sandsock (basic description)
They don't have to be sand- the guy below, says field corn, I use light dried beans. Sand works better, but I don't want to carry 5 lbs of sand if I can use something lighter that works 80% as well.
<span style="font-weight: bold">On Trace</span>
Trace you can spot sometimes even inside 300 meters, but certainly should be able to spot almost always (except on very windy days) at 300-900M.
If you have a spotting scope worth a crap, position yourself just right and rear of the shooter as close to the bore axis as possible, set the scope to ~18 power (somewhere in the 16-20x range), focus on the target, or bring it back just about 1/3 of the way toward your location, so the target is just barely blurred. Mount the spotter in a tripod that is firmly mounted so that there is no shake in the scope [this might take some rigging of your tripod but it is critical], then look through the scope with both eyes open, not touching the scope with your forehead, cover your non scope eye with your hand, but don't close either eye.
You should see it. The brake won't help because blast will cause you to want to close your eye. Sound suppressors for this reason really make seeing trace more reliable and easy, but that doesn't mean it can't be done all the way up to 50BMG without a can. With the 50 you just get behind the shooter sitting so you're looking over the gun, rather than off to the side getting your world all fucked up by the blast and flying dirt and grass.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So Choate is a POS ??.... but.. but.. but... I think I may cry...</div></div>
He was referring to the factory tupperware stocks that savages come in. All pre-2009 Savages with synthetic stocks were terrible only because the factory tupperware was terrible, it was too flexible and affected the accuracy. Savages are supposed to be free-floated, but when you put a bipod on the factory stock, it would flex and come into contact with the barrel, hence effecting the accuracy.
Now this is NOT reffering to the Choate stock you have on your rifle, the Choate stock is a decent stock, definitely better than the factory stock. Its good for its price, but its not in the same league as other, more expensive stocks. Manners and McMillan make amazing stocks. I personally go to Kevin Rayhill at Stockade for Savage stocks, he makes amazing stocks and they wont break the bank, a complete, painted stock will cost you around $300-350, but an unpainted, "moneysaver" stock will cost you about $200-250. Heres the website for more info (by info, i mean pics)
http://www.stockadegunstocks.com/
Now that I'm done with that rant on accuracy, let me tell you about savage accuracy. i can easily get 1/2 MOA groups out of my 300 WSM rifle, but being realistic this rifle is about a 3/4 MOA rifle, with 1/2 MOA groups coming once in a while, though not rarely. I really think its the rounds youre using that is causing the terrible accuracy, I'm sure there is nothing wrong with your rifle, it sounds like a great rifle setup that you have.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So Choate is a POS ??.... but.. but.. but... I think I may cry...</div></div>
He was referring to the factory tupperware stocks that savages come in. All pre-2009 Savages with synthetic stocks were terrible only because the factory tupperware was terrible, it was too flexible and affected the accuracy. Savages are supposed to be free-floated, but when you put a bipod on the factory stock, it would flex and come into contact with the barrel, hence effecting the accuracy.
Now this is NOT reffering to the Choate stock you have on your rifle, the Choate stock is a decent stock, definitely better than the factory stock. Its good for its price, but its not in the same league as other, more expensive stocks. Manners and McMillan make amazing stocks. I personally go to Kevin Rayhill at Stockade for Savage stocks, he makes amazing stocks and they wont break the bank, a complete, painted stock will cost you around $300-350, but an unpainted, "moneysaver" stock will cost you about $200-250. Heres the website for more info (by info, i mean pics)
http://www.stockadegunstocks.com/
Now that I'm done with that rant on accuracy, let me tell you about savage accuracy. i can easily get 1/2 MOA groups out of my 300 WSM rifle, but being realistic this rifle is about a 3/4 MOA rifle, with 1/2 MOA groups coming once in a while, though not rarely. I really think its the rounds youre using that is causing the terrible accuracy, I'm sure there is nothing wrong with your rifle, it sounds like a great rifle setup that you have.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
rusty815; I have a 2 year old 10FP and made the mistake of putting the bypod on the end of the stock, had round flying high right at 300 yds. Found that the stock was flexing moved bypod back to second mounting point that cured the problem. As to the 1/2 moa groups my rifle will shot them if I do everything right: but I'm not good enough to shoot that kind of grouping consistantly.
rusty815; I have a 2 year old 10FP and made the mistake of putting the bypod on the end of the stock, had round flying high right at 300 yds. Found that the stock was flexing moved bypod back to second mounting point that cured the problem. As to the 1/2 moa groups my rifle will shot them if I do everything right: but I'm not good enough to shoot that kind of grouping consistantly.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To date I've never caught a glimps of trace. Even my buddy seldom sees the trace. For the most part we both work off the low tech method of dust kick up at the impact point.
</div></div>
Check out this video I made of my TRG. It shows trace pretty well. At the base of the video image is a tab to make the video larger, click it. Make sure the HD is on if your connection is fast enough.
http://vimeo.com/24227428
You can see the very different angles of trajectory between the different shot distances. Becoming a good spotter takes some time, some pick it up faster than others. The ambient light conditions and background color can also make spotting more difficult on some days. I usually spot at 20-25 power when looking for trace.
Good luck!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cstmwrks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To date I've never caught a glimps of trace. Even my buddy seldom sees the trace. For the most part we both work off the low tech method of dust kick up at the impact point.
</div></div>
Check out this video I made of my TRG. It shows trace pretty well. At the base of the video image is a tab to make the video larger, click it. Make sure the HD is on if your connection is fast enough.
http://vimeo.com/24227428
You can see the very different angles of trajectory between the different shot distances. Becoming a good spotter takes some time, some pick it up faster than others. The ambient light conditions and background color can also make spotting more difficult on some days. I usually spot at 20-25 power when looking for trace.
Good luck!
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
Ok here we go, Please dont take offense but are you honsetly capable of consistant 1/2 moa shooting... Think about that, Im not talking about one saturday, when the stars where lined up, the temp was just right, and you were wearing your lucky t-shirt. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say yes Im a 1/2 moa shooter. A lot of people out there have convinced themselves that they are when they are not. Thats point number one.
Point number two, you haven't even scrached the surface on working up a load for this gun. Do you have a good chronograph? I dont mean one of those total POS chrony's either, I mean a good one, Oehler comes to mind. What speeds are you running? Do you know what speeds your looking for? Another poster mentioned the bullet going to sleep down range, the real truth is if you do the load work correctly you will put the bullet to sleep right out of the barrel period.
Components, its been stated but Im going to say it again, use top quality components, the stuff thats been proven to work, for the bullet weight you are trying to run.
Number 3, yes the Choate stock is a total POS.
Again, Im not trying to be an A$$hole, but before you can rant you need to do a whole bunch of work, this site is about helping people and not blowing sunshine you know where. If you want my help Im more than happy to do so, just PM me.
mike
Ok here we go, Please dont take offense but are you honsetly capable of consistant 1/2 moa shooting... Think about that, Im not talking about one saturday, when the stars where lined up, the temp was just right, and you were wearing your lucky t-shirt. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say yes Im a 1/2 moa shooter. A lot of people out there have convinced themselves that they are when they are not. Thats point number one.
Point number two, you haven't even scrached the surface on working up a load for this gun. Do you have a good chronograph? I dont mean one of those total POS chrony's either, I mean a good one, Oehler comes to mind. What speeds are you running? Do you know what speeds your looking for? Another poster mentioned the bullet going to sleep down range, the real truth is if you do the load work correctly you will put the bullet to sleep right out of the barrel period.
Components, its been stated but Im going to say it again, use top quality components, the stuff thats been proven to work, for the bullet weight you are trying to run.
Number 3, yes the Choate stock is a total POS.
Again, Im not trying to be an A$$hole, but before you can rant you need to do a whole bunch of work, this site is about helping people and not blowing sunshine you know where. If you want my help Im more than happy to do so, just PM me.
mike
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mbandy13</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok here we go, Please dont take offense but are you honsetly capable of consistant 1/2 moa shooting... Think about that, Im not talking about one saturday, when the stars where lined up, the temp was just right, and you were wearing your lucky t-shirt. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say yes Im a 1/2 moa shooter. A lot of people out there have convinced themselves that they are when they are not. Thats point number one.
Point number two, you haven't even scrached the surface on working up a load for this gun. Do you have a good chronograph? I dont mean one of those total POS chrony's either, I mean a good one, Oehler comes to mind. What speeds are you running? Do you know what speeds your looking for? Another poster mentioned the bullet going to sleep down range, the real truth is if you do the load work correctly you will put the bullet to sleep right out of the barrel period.
Components, its been stated but Im going to say it again, use top quality components, the stuff thats been proven to work, for the bullet weight you are trying to run.
Number 3, yes the Choate stock is a total POS.
Again, Im not trying to be an A$$hole, but before you can rant you need to do a whole bunch of work, this site is about helping people and not blowing sunshine you know where. If you want my help Im more than happy to do so, just PM me.
mike
</div></div>
+1 100%
Just because you shot a .499 ctc group (probably 3 shot- which does not constitute as a real group) once, and usually average around 1.2 ctc- does not mean you have a sub 1/2 MOA rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mbandy13</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ok here we go, Please dont take offense but are you honsetly capable of consistant 1/2 moa shooting... Think about that, Im not talking about one saturday, when the stars where lined up, the temp was just right, and you were wearing your lucky t-shirt. Can you look yourself in the mirror and say yes Im a 1/2 moa shooter. A lot of people out there have convinced themselves that they are when they are not. Thats point number one.
Point number two, you haven't even scrached the surface on working up a load for this gun. Do you have a good chronograph? I dont mean one of those total POS chrony's either, I mean a good one, Oehler comes to mind. What speeds are you running? Do you know what speeds your looking for? Another poster mentioned the bullet going to sleep down range, the real truth is if you do the load work correctly you will put the bullet to sleep right out of the barrel period.
Components, its been stated but Im going to say it again, use top quality components, the stuff thats been proven to work, for the bullet weight you are trying to run.
Number 3, yes the Choate stock is a total POS.
Again, Im not trying to be an A$$hole, but before you can rant you need to do a whole bunch of work, this site is about helping people and not blowing sunshine you know where. If you want my help Im more than happy to do so, just PM me.
mike
</div></div>
+1 100%
Just because you shot a .499 ctc group (probably 3 shot- which does not constitute as a real group) once, and usually average around 1.2 ctc- does not mean you have a sub 1/2 MOA rifle.
Re: The legend of the 1/2 MOA Savage
+1 I have shoot .5Moa groups 5 and 10 round but not consistantly. I belive thr rifle may be capable of this but I'm not. I have worked up a consistant load; 175 smks 44.5 grains Varget, 2.80 OAL FGMM brass Winchester primers. This load has given me the best accuracy, but I still need a lot of practice.
+1 I have shoot .5Moa groups 5 and 10 round but not consistantly. I belive thr rifle may be capable of this but I'm not. I have worked up a consistant load; 175 smks 44.5 grains Varget, 2.80 OAL FGMM brass Winchester primers. This load has given me the best accuracy, but I still need a lot of practice.
