Sidearms & Scatterguns 9MM Wins - Thanks FBI

[Cobracutter]

Well it looks like the FBI has come to the same conclusion that Military, Competition and Hobby shooters have been advocating for years.

Perhaps this will help put down the 9mm vs .40 debates once and for all.

FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division | LooseRounds.com

 

[ArcticLight]

Someone here posted a debate that the FBI got into whereas a subject t ook 6 or 8 s hots from a 40, although some hit vital organs, the subject had to be taken down with a 223 for that reason.

Shot placement had a lot ot do with it, and that's wh y the 5.56 sniper was able to stop the shooter instantly. Was pretty in depth and I lost all confidence in 40 cal at that point.
I still believe that 45 ACP is better than b oth of them.

But between 9mm and 40, I'll take a 9mm any day of the week.

 

[sandwarrior]

The FBI report has some pretty scary assumptions.

First off, let me say I'm finally (don't laugh it's been hard or me) not going to get so`much into the caliber debate as what the report says. 9mm is adequate for a personal sidearm. The .45 gives more power and believe it or not the .40 gives more. But, in looking at the big picture, the extra power may not be needed and could also end up as a detriment. It's not so much my opinion as the reports findings.

A good video on this was posted by Papa zero three. The video was of the head trauma surgeon at a major city hospital. The medical cross section of numerous .40, 9mm and .45 cal hits is that none of the rounds really causes "stopping power". They penetrate in general order of .40, .45 and 9mm. .40 is in front of .45 probably because of velocity. The thing that makes any of them deadly is the ability to hit center mass and open up a large blood vessel or organ. None of the rounds move fast enough to inflict "hydraulic shock", the truly deadly phenomenon that smashes cells and organs internally by large energy transference. Which leads to massive loss of blood. In most cases that is why a gunshot victim dies. The only reason the .45 would be a better choice is it's wider and has a larger expansion capability. Barely enough to even notice in the scheme of things.

My problem with their report is two things. First, that FBI agents who "don't remain proficient" are far more likely to be able to keep their pistol aimed 'center-mass'. Second, is the report states "bigger calibers are wearing out the service issue guns" too fast.


So, my isssue with the first point is, "Why are FBI/Gov. LE agents being allowed to let their skills degrade to the point that all they can shoot is a 9mm? That is not an excuse to move to a lesser caliber, even if it is sufficient. Because sooner or later, they (FBI/Gov LE agencies) will be saying the .380 is okay and the .38 special worked just fine.

To the second point, since when have all these larger caliber guns worn out? We had tons of WWII issue .45's when I was in. A lot of them saw service in Viet Nam. We shot them a lot and didn't see too many break. The report goes on to say all the SOF units can't keep up with replacement parts for the .45's because they wear out so fast. LE departments across the nation are seeing excessive wear on department issue handguns as the larger calibers just break them down. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as I know of older Glocks and polymer pistols that have been shooting .40 and .45 for years.

While the report simplifies that the 9mm is adequate for everyone, I will continue to prefer my .40 and .45

 

[fdkay]

I could be led to believe that the .40, being a high pressure, medium bullet weight platform would be tough on the 9mm sized platforms they are normally chambered in.
The plainclothes guys like to carry compacts or even sub-compacts. Controlling the smaller guns chambered in .40 could certainly be a challenge.

With modern, high quality hollow points, there is not a great difference in the performance of the 9mm, .40 and .45.

The .40 and .357 sig are very snappy with a sharp recoil compared the the "push" of a .45, the 9mm is pretty damn easy to shoot.
The 9x23 is an outstanding cartridge that is made for the large frame autos (same length as the .45 and 10mm) and gives you near .357 mag performance, with the ability to load the heavier bullets (unlike the .357 sig)

 

[EddieNFL]

What brand vehicles does the FBI use?

 

[RobG]

Someone here posted a debate that the FBI got into whereas a subject t ook 6 or 8 s hots from a 40, although some hit vital organs, the subject had to be taken down with a 223 for that reason.

Shot placement had a lot ot do with it, and that's wh y the 5.56 sniper was able to stop the shooter instantly. Was pretty in depth and I lost all confidence in 40 cal at that point.
I still believe that 45 ACP is better than b oth of them.

But between 9mm and 40, I'll take a 9mm any day of the week.

I wouldn't necessarily base an opinion on one case. I transported a guy shot 6 times in the back with a .40 S&W. He lived. I pronounced (dead on arrival) a guy shot once in the chest with a .22 LR from about 30 yds. I am not going to choose a .22 over the .40.

Of all the people I have dealt with that have been shot over 22 years, shot placement seems to matter most.

 

[355sigfan]

The point is no matter how skilled you are you will shoot faster with the same accuracy with a gun that recoils less. As to why shooters not just FBI agents are allowed to let their skills degrade is money. No one has the funds to pay the OT for training and supply the ammo it would take to make all agents, cops, soldiers expert shooters. That is a reality. I started the push at the agencies I have worked for back to 9mm and I have seen qualification scores go up as a result. We can afford more ammo to train with as well. I have no problem with those that chose other calibers but in my opinion the best case is made for a 9mm in a service pistol.
Pat

The FBI report has some pretty scary assumptions.

First off, let me say I'm finally (don't laugh it's been hard or me) not going to get so`much into the caliber debate as what the report says. 9mm is adequate for a personal sidearm. The .45 gives more power and believe it or not the .40 gives more. But, in looking at the big picture, the extra power may not be needed and could also end up as a detriment. It's not so much my opinion as the reports findings.

A good video on this was posted by Papa zero three. The video was of the head trauma surgeon at a major city hospital. The medical cross section of numerous .40, 9mm and .45 cal hits is that none of the rounds really causes "stopping power". They penetrate in general order of .40, .45 and 9mm. .40 is in front of .45 probably because of velocity. The thing that makes any of them deadly is the ability to hit center mass and open up a large blood vessel or organ. None of the rounds move fast enough to inflict "hydraulic shock", the truly deadly phenomenon that smashes cells and organs internally by large energy transference. Which leads to massive loss of blood. In most cases that is why a gunshot victim dies. The only reason the .45 would be a better choice is it's wider and has a larger expansion capability. Barely enough to even notice in the scheme of things.

My problem with their report is two things. First, that FBI agents who "don't remain proficient" are far more likely to be able to keep their pistol aimed 'center-mass'. Second, is the report states "bigger calibers are wearing out the service issue guns" too fast.


So, my isssue with the first point is, "Why are FBI/Gov. LE agents being allowed to let their skills degrade to the point that all they can shoot is a 9mm? That is not an excuse to move to a lesser caliber, even if it is sufficient. Because sooner or later, they (FBI/Gov LE agencies) will be saying the .380 is okay and the .38 special worked just fine.

To the second point, since when have all these larger caliber guns worn out? We had tons of WWII issue .45's when I was in. A lot of them saw service in Viet Nam. We shot them a lot and didn't see too many break. The report goes on to say all the SOF units can't keep up with replacement parts for the .45's because they wear out so fast. LE departments across the nation are seeing excessive wear on department issue handguns as the larger calibers just break them down. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as I know of older Glocks and polymer pistols that have been shooting .40 and .45 for years.

While the report simplifies that the 9mm is adequate for everyone, I will continue to prefer my .40 and .45

 

[Mike_Honcho]

I could give two shits what the FEDs want to shoot. For all I care the vast majority of them can shoot 25 ACP.

ETA - IMHO much of the story goes back to the history of the 10mm - full house 10 is a legitimate assracker. The FEDs recognized that it worked and worked well. It beat up 1911 platforms and there weren't many others out there. If you were a weak sister, you probably didn't qual, most that qual'd wouldn't have been considered shooters by real shooters. Then they dumbed down the 10 into the infamous FBI load - which was for all intents and purposes - the 40. The story is about how to take a group of largely non shooter types, give them a required piece of gear, make them minimally proficient for as little money as possible. It is simple physics - a 9 is easier to control, cheaper, and the platforms are smaller - one size fits all.

 

[355sigfan]

The article made solid points regardless if you are a FED or a CCW holder.
Pat

 

[CoryT]

The point is no matter how skilled you are you will shoot faster with the same accuracy with a gun that recoils less.Pat

At which point I suppose we should just shoot .22's. Shoot them through the right eye and it's all good. Why the right eye? Spoils their aim.

 

[355sigfan]

At which point I suppose we should just shoot .22's. Shoot them through the right eye and it's all good. Why the right eye? Spoils their aim.

When you get to the point of diminishing returns. The 9mm is a perfect balance of terminal performance, recoil, and magazine capacity. The 40 SW offers a slight advantage in terminal performance because it expands to about .05 caliber more and goes about 1 inch deeper into gelatin. It also recoils more which slows the rate of fire which means less lead in the bad guy in any given amount of time vs the 9mm. The 45 does better still expanding to about .10 more (comparing similar bullet designs) holds even less ammo than the 40 and requires a larger gun to handle it. I was not a 9mm fan at the start believing in the big bore and magnum hype. But experience and training has taught me that what matters in the equation is shot placement and rate of fire. Putting lots of well placed shots into the target as fast as possible. No determined attacker is going to stop unless he wants to after just getting hit once or twice with any handgun caliber unless the central nervous system is hit. All handguns are relatively poor stoppers. I would much rather have a 9mm that I can fire fast and accurately even when injured when shooting from my left hand than have a 40, 45 or 10mm that hits harder per shot but has a slower rate of fire due to additional recoil and is exponentially more difficulty to fire one handed when injured. That is my stance. Others like other calibers for their own reasons. But after carrying guns for over 20 years 15 of that as a cop and carrying the 45 acp, 10mm, 357 sig, 40sw and 9mm. I know that in the end of the day caliber does not matter. What matters is you and your ability to use your tools effectively. One thing I do know is nothing ever dies as fast as you want it to when you are shooting it in defense of your life.

Agencies like LAPD have noticed an increase in stopping power after recruits have gone back to the 9mm due to the simple fact they are making better hits in gun fights. That is what matters. To make my argument simple. 3 9mms in someone's chest is better than 2 .45's.

Pat

 

[17874]

I will be sticking with my .40 caliber.

 

[355sigfan]

It is a very personal choice. If someone feels better with a 45 or 40 because of a belief that its a better round then they should carry one as long as they can shoot it well. Confidence is good regardless of rather that confidence is based on a real or perceived advantage.
Pat

 

[propeine]

Agencies like LAPD have noticed an increase in stopping power after recruits have gone back to the 9mm due to the simple fact they are making better hits in gun fights. That is what matters. To make my argument simple. 3 9mms in someone's chest is better than 2 .45's.

Pat

Strictly speaking, (2) 45's has affected more tissue than (3) 9mm by the cross sectional areas. Of course I'm just being a smartass about it and knew what you meant.

 

[Cobracutter]

I could be led to believe that the .40, being a high pressure, medium bullet weight platform would be tough on the 9mm sized platforms they are normally chambered in.
The plainclothes guys like to carry compacts or even sub-compacts. Controlling the smaller guns chambered in .40 could certainly be a challenge.

With modern, high quality hollow points, there is not a great difference in the performance of the 9mm, .40 and .45.

The .40 and .357 sig are very snappy with a sharp recoil compared the the "push" of a .45, the 9mm is pretty damn easy to shoot.
The 9x23 is an outstanding cartridge that is made for the large frame autos (same length as the .45 and 10mm) and gives you near .357 mag performance, with the ability to load the heavier bullets (unlike the .357 sig)

Exactly. The only real benefit that .40 had was better penetration through Laminated Glass (windshields). Modern bonded bullets have made that a moot point.

Many problems can also be attributed to making .40 work in a system that was desgined around 9mm.

 

[Cobracutter]

The other assumption that FED's can't shoot, its pretty far from reality. Compared to Local/County/State, the FED's actually take shooting seriously, and put alot of lead down range. They also shot ALOT more throughout the year the previously mentioned.

All of the FED LE and 1811's I know shoot ALOT. They are also gun guys. DHS doesn't buy Eleventy Billion rounds to just sit around in some warehouse.

 

[Cobracutter]

I could give two shits what the FEDs want to shoot. For all I care the vast majority of them can shoot 25 ACP.

ETA - IMHO much of the story goes back to the history of the 10mm - full house 10 is a legitimate assracker. The FEDs recognized that it worked and worked well. It beat up 1911 platforms and there weren't many others out there. If you were a weak sister, you probably didn't qual, most that qual'd wouldn't have been considered shooters by real shooters. Then they dumbed down the 10 into the infamous FBI load - which was for all intents and purposes - the 40. The story is about how to take a group of largely non shooter types, give them a required piece of gear, make them minimally proficient for as little money as possible. It is simple physics - a 9 is easier to control, cheaper, and the platforms are smaller - one size fits all.

And the effect on the target is too similar to notice a difference. So why limit your capacity, increase recoil, increase wear/tear on weapon, decrease reliability in a platform the caliber was not designed for, and at much higher cost?

If people look at why the .40 was selected years ago, they would realize why its a suboptimal.

But keep on shooting .40, more 9MM on the shelf for me.

 

[ZLBubba]

The truth is, if you've gotten yourself into a situation where 15 rounds of 9mm will save you but 13 rounds of .40 will not, then you've done fucked up. There isn't much difference between the two in all practicality, so carry whatever you like and shoot the best. Handgun cartridge debates aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I carry a Glock 23 because I like it, but rest assured I've got a threaded 9mm KKM barrel ready to go. Why pick one when you can have both?

 

[Rob01]

Feel like I opened Guns and Ammo magazine from the mid 90's. .40 vs 9mm? Really? LOL All we need is some .45 ACP or bust guys in here and we will be all set.

 

[rpk762]

Cobracutter out of all the 40 cal handguns out there how many will ever be wore out by shooting? On the high side maybe one in a thousand?

I never had a reason to shoot the 10mm short. With that being said everyone keep shooting your 40's and 9mm's. As I need brass for my 357sig and 9mm.

 

[ZLBubba]

Feel like I opened Guns and Ammo magazine from the mid 90's. .40 vs 9mm? Really? LOL All we need is some .45 ACP or bust guys in here and we will be all set.

So true! I busted out laughing when I saw this post, and my wife shot me a weird look for guffawing on the couch reading my iPad.

 

[Cobracutter]

The truth is, if you've gotten yourself into a situation where 15 rounds of 9mm will save you but 13 rounds of .40 will not, then you've done fucked up. There isn't much difference between the two in all practicality, so carry whatever you like and shoot the best. Handgun cartridge debates aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I carry a Glock 23 because I like it, but rest assured I've got a threaded 9mm KKM barrel ready to go. Why pick one when you can have both?

Thats not the point. The difference is getting hits on target, which is easier, quicker, cheaper and more reliable with 9MM than the .40

Glock .40 problems are well documented, from accuracy, to reliability to pre-mature parts wear..... and amazingly these problems go away when a dept goes to 9MM G17/G19's.

Its not some immature 9mm vs .40.... its approaching the discussion from a scientific point of view to support an assertion many already made 10+ years ago.

Yes , service pistol rounds are poor show stoppers. A rifle/Carbine will ALWAYS be preferable, but it does not change the fact one has advantages over the other.

 

[Cobracutter]

Cobracutter out of all the 40 cal handguns out there how many will ever be wore out by shooting? On the high side maybe one in a thousand?

I never had a reason to shoot the 10mm short. With that being said everyone keep shooting your 40's and 9mm's. As I need brass for my 357sig and 9mm.

Well documented with .40 Glocks & M&P's they have issues. The M&P much more than the Glock, but there is a reason agencies are dumping them wholesale, and its not just cost.

DocGKR
"As noted, 9 mm Glocks have demonstrated substantially better durability than .40 versions; this is a pattern seen with many other vendors pistols...some would call that a clue."

 

[ZLBubba]

Thats not the point. The difference is getting hits on target, which is easier, quicker, cheaper and more reliable with 9MM than the .40

Glock .40 problems are well documented, from accuracy, to reliability to pre-mature parts wear..... and amazingly these problems go away when a dept goes to 9MM G17/G19's.

Its not some immature 9mm vs .40.... its approaching the discussion from a scientific point of view to support an assertion many already made 10+ years ago.

Yes , service pistol rounds are poor show stoppers. A rifle/Carbine will ALWAYS be preferable, but it does not change the fact one has advantages over the other.

Keep beatin' that drum, man. I'm not trying to say a 9mm is inferior.

I like Ford trucks, by the way. Not telling you that you shouldn't drive Chevys either.

 

[0311 Hesco]

I asked my paramedic teacher about hydrostatic shock and he researched it for a few days and said it's not a legitimate phenomenon.

 

[Veer_G]

Feel like I opened Guns and Ammo magazine from the mid 90's. .40 vs 9mm? Really? LOL All we need is some .45 ACP or bust guys in here and we will be all set.

It might just be a pinned thread where we're going ...

 

[355sigfan]

Cobracutter out of all the 40 cal handguns out there how many will ever be wore out by shooting? On the high side maybe one in a thousand?

I never had a reason to shoot the 10mm short. With that being said everyone keep shooting your 40's and 9mm's. As I need brass for my 357sig and 9mm.

They are going down much faster than their 9mm counterparts. No denying that. Now the reason you won't see more press is most agencies don't shoot that much but the ones that do have had to replace the guns far more often. Getting 100K or more out of a 17 is not a big feat but getting 35K or so out of a Glock 22 is pretty good.

 

[355sigfan]

The truth is, if you've gotten yourself into a situation where 15 rounds of 9mm will save you but 13 rounds of .40 will not, then you've done fucked up. There isn't much difference between the two in all practicality, so carry whatever you like and shoot the best. Handgun cartridge debates aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I carry a Glock 23 because I like it, but rest assured I've got a threaded 9mm KKM barrel ready to go. Why pick one when you can have both?

With respect many would say if your in a gun fight you done fucked up. But shit happens as they say. More is better. I saw a shooting video that was caught on a police dash cam that showed an officer getting shot in the face with a .357 revolver on a traffic stop. He managed to draw his pistol (Glock 17) ( round was not fatal believe it or not) and he was able to keep the suspect from getting out of his vehicle and finishing the job because he had lot of bullets. He was partially blinded and was only able to put rounds towards the door area of the suspects vehicle. The suspect gave up and left. I carry a Glock 17 now with Taran Tactical +5 extensions on duty. The only time you can have too much ammo is when your swimming or on fire. I used to carry a Wilson single stack 1911 in 45 acp. But after attending that training and watching a lot of officer involved shooting videos I transitioned to my Glock 17. I never cared for the 40 in 9mm sized guns due to the extra recoil and muzzle flip.

 

[355sigfan]

The other assumption that FED's can't shoot, its pretty far from reality. Compared to Local/County/State, the FED's actually take shooting seriously, and put alot of lead down range. They also shot ALOT more throughout the year the previously mentioned.

All of the FED LE and 1811's I know shoot ALOT. They are also gun guys. DHS doesn't buy Eleventy Billion rounds to just sit around in some warehouse.

I will have to say this depends. Some federal agencies take firearms training seriously some don't. The FBI qualification is a piece of cake. The training's I have attending where federal agents were also in attendance left me underwhelmed with their abilities behind a gun. That said most Feds are doing a job where their firearms skill is not that critical. The FBI for example is made up of mostly accountants and attorneys. If something bad is going to go down they call local police to go on the dangerous stuff with them. Ask me how I know? That said standards for police vary greatly across the country. Some agencies take shooting more seriously than others. I am from a small 10 man department yet I have taken 1st place the last 4 years in a row at our States annual LEO memorial shooting competition. This greatly pisses off guys from bigger more well funded agencies. The point is you can't make an assumption that the FEDs must shoot better than State and Local cops because in my experience the opposite is true.

 

[rpk762]

They are going down much faster than their 9mm counterparts. No denying that. Now the reason you won't see more press is most agencies don't shoot that much but the ones that do have had to replace the guns far more often. Getting 100K or more out of a 17 is not a big feat but getting 35K or so out of a Glock 22 is pretty good.

I know that but the average shooter will be lucky to get 3k down range during the time they have the handgun. I picked up a g31 gen3 that had to be one of the first in the country. If it had 400rds down range I would be shocked.

 

[EddieNFL]

The FBI for example is made up of mostly accountants and attorneys.

And computer nerds.

I know that but the average shooter will be lucky to get 3k down range during the time they have the handgun.

That's a good description of a gun owner. A shooter may do 3K in a month.

 

[Shoottothrill]

1. Guys with vagina's shoot .380's

2. Guys with 14" arms shoot 9mm's.

3 Guys with 16" arms shoot 40's.

4. Guys with 18" arms shoot .45's

5. These are irrefutable facts Cause Mas I'm a Boob said so in Guns and Ammo July 1996.

6. When a bad guy looks down the barrel of my .45 and see's my 18" arms he drops his gun runs 10 yards and drops dead in his tracks.

 

[Cobracutter]

FBI are not the only federal agency. LE and 1811's shoot much more than your avg cop or deputy. No they aren't all gun nuts, and yes many have financial and accounting backgrounds beacuse that is what they investigate. The Academies, follow up FLETC, and regular shoot regime most have result in competent shooters. When I was in combatives school, some unnamed agency was doing their ASP quarterly qualification in the next bay over. No joke, beating the fuck out of dummies just to stay current. This was not a high speed agency btw. They take their training seriously, and have the budget to support that.

Take the avg "cop" and the avg federal LE, and its night and day. Not even fair.....

 

[355sigfan]

FBI are not the only federal agency. LE and 1811's shoot much more than your avg cop or deputy. No they aren't all gun nuts, and yes many have financial and accounting backgrounds beacuse that is what they investigate. The Academies, follow up FLETC, and regular shoot regime most have result in competent shooters. When I was in combatives school, some unnamed agency was doing their ASP quarterly qualification in the next bay over. No joke, beating the fuck out of dummies just to stay current. This was not a high speed agency btw. They take their training seriously, and have the budget to support that.

Take the avg "cop" and the avg federal LE, and its night and day. Not even fair.....

There is no way you can quantify that. For starters no one makes those records available to the public except by subpoena at a trial. Secondly there is no real average because every agency has vastly different standards even amounts the FEDS themselves. I would take the average patrol cop over the exceptional federal agent on a hot call. Now if I need help with a detailed financial investigation then I want the feds help.
Pat

 

[cal50]

I will have to say this depends. Some federal agencies take firearms training seriously some don't. The FBI qualification is a piece of cake. The training's I have attending where federal agents were also in attendance left me underwhelmed with their abilities behind a gun. That said most Feds are doing a job where their firearms skill is not that critical. The FBI for example is made up of mostly accountants and attorneys. If something bad is going to go down they call local police to go on the dangerous stuff with them. Ask me how I know? That said standards for police vary greatly across the country. Some agencies take shooting more seriously than others. I am from a small 10 man department yet I have taken 1st place the last 4 years in a row at our States annual LEO memorial shooting competition. This greatly pisses off guys from bigger more well funded agencies. The point is you can't make an assumption that the FEDs must shoot better than State and Local cops because in my experience the opposite is true.

While at the local indoor range in walks a couple women and when they removed their jackets they had badges and holstered handguns. The range is 50' long and they had full size silhouette targets run down to the end and fired a couple mags each, ran the target back and literally missed most of the shots fired. They then ran the targets down maybe 1/3 of the way and did a LOT better and kept their shots on the target. They finished up and left. When we exited the range we asked the guy working there if he knew them. He is local PD and said they are a couple of FBI agents from the Cleveland office and come out on occasion.

He said the running joke is if they told you to halt ( and you did ) and they started shooting at you they would likely miss but if you were running you have a greater chance of being hit.

Lots of people wrongly assume becasue someone is a cop, ex-military or an instructor that they have super marksmanship skills.
Some do and lots don't.

I really need a job where I get free ammo.........

 

[EddieNFL]

These are irrefutable facts Cause Mas I'm a Boob said so in Guns and Ammo July 1996.

Last time I saw him he was using a 9MM.

 

[thebolt]

The FBI performs firearm studies annually and their studies normally conflict and are all over the charts. They study and change their firearms every couple years searching for the perfect firearm and have carried almost every pistol in the US market with each being the best at that moment in time. The firearm skills of most agents are low average but they are highly satisfied with that level of performance and brag about their superior abilities.

The FBI are overconfident and most of their job is about their ego and appearance. They have no credibility with law enforcement agencies and take credit for the work of others.

The bureau ride desks for a living and they get their asses handed to them when they leave their offices. Research those shootings involving the FBI and you will see their actual performance is sorely lacking and even their dishonest press releases can't cover those facts. Their dismal performance is documented in many instances and they are all smoke and mirrors.

Use and carry what works for you and allow this study the value and credibility it deserves.

 

[sandwarrior]

The FBI performs firearm studies annually and their studies normally conflict and are all over the charts. They study and change their firearms every couple years searching for the perfect firearm and have carried almost every pistol in the US market with each being the best at that moment in time. The firearm skills of most agents are low average but they are highly satisfied with that level of performance and brag about their superior abilities.

The FBI are overconfident and most of their job is about their ego and appearance. They have no credibility with law enforcement agencies and take credit for the work of others.

The bureau ride desks for a living and they get their asses handed to them when they leave their offices. Research those shootings involving the FBI and you will see their actual performance is sorely lacking and even their dishonest press releases can't cover those facts. Their dismal performance is documented in many instances and they are all smoke and mirrors.

Use and carry what works for you and allow this study the value and credibility it deserves.

Specifically the 1986 bank robbery that led to the return to the .45, then spawned the 10mm, which in turn spawned the .40, only to go back to a 9mm standard.... ^^ Somewhere in there .357 Sig was added and plus P rounds too. The .45 ACP was again chambered in an off the shelf revolver during this time as well

The real thing that was lacking was training and tactics. In which my point was that is always where they lack. Declaring one round better than the other is a very small slice of the pie.
Also, they were up against a carbine. You're gonna be outgunned no matter what pistol you shoot in that situation.

 

[Wyfox]

Agencies across the US are going back to 9mm now, agency T & E has been proving that the 9mm with quality bullets out performs many other calibers. Greater penetration and higher round capacity along with officers being able to put rounds down range faster and more accurately then with a 40 or 45. It's a win win situation for law enforcement officers. Everybody knocks the 9, but it works.

Military is restricted to FMJ so they don't have the option to utilize quality bullets as law enforcement does.

 

[17874]

Thats not the point. The difference is getting hits on target, which is easier, quicker, cheaper and more reliable with 9MM than the .40

Glock .40 problems are well documented, from accuracy, to reliability to pre-mature parts wear..... and amazingly these problems go away when a dept goes to 9MM G17/G19's.

Its not some immature 9mm vs .40.... its approaching the discussion from a scientific point of view to support an assertion many already made 10+ years ago.

Yes , service pistol rounds are poor show stoppers. A rifle/Carbine will ALWAYS be preferable, but it does not change the fact one has advantages over the other.

My question to you is, how many shootings have you been in? I managed 100% accuracy with a .40 in mine and took care of business in less than 2 seconds from start to finish.

 

[355sigfan]

My question to you is, how many shootings have you been in? I managed 100% accuracy with a .40 in mine and took care of business in less than 2 seconds from start to finish.

I am glad you survived and won. There is a danger in using anecdotal data however especially with a sample size of one. I know of an officer who was in a shooting where he was simply more lucky than the drunk that was shooting at him and he won. His department made him a firearms instructor. He sucked at it. But since he was in a shooting he was elevated to hero status and everyone assumed he knew how to handle a gun.
Pat

 

[sigfan27]

My question to you is, how many shootings have you been in? I managed 100% accuracy with a .40 in mine and took care of business in less than 2 seconds from start to finish.

A full brief on the incident would be nice out of the respect of ballistics and science. Ammo, firearm, loading, distance, time, toxicology, and the investigation afterward.

 

[17874]

I am glad you survived and won. There is a danger in using anecdotal data however especially with a sample size of one. I know of an officer who was in a shooting where he was simply more lucky than the drunk that was shooting at him and he won. His department made him a firearms instructor. He sucked at it. But since he was in a shooting he was elevated to hero status and everyone assumed he knew how to handle a gun.
Pat

PM sent

 

[17874]

A full brief on the incident would be nice out of the respect of ballistics and science. Ammo, firearm, loading, distance, time, toxicology, and the investigation afterward.

PM sent

 

[JLM]

Handguns. They all suck for most part. Pick a nice low pressure round and get on with life.

My friend did Trauma in North Omaha. Dude comes in one night shot 7x COM with a .45 ACP. He lived. Next night dude comes in shot 3x with a 9mm and he died.

And then there was the cat stabbed with the Samurai sword xD.

For the .40 fans, enjoy your 'numerically superior' caliber. And your shit wearing out earlier.

 

[Javelin]

It's 2014, why are grown men still arguing over the merits of underpowered automatic pistol cartridges..

 

[Veer_G]

It's 2014, why are grown men still arguing over the merits of underpowered automatic pistol cartridges..

Because we don't have phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range yet ...

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Specifically the 1986 bank robbery that led to the return to the .45, then spawned the 10mm, which in turn spawned the .40, only to go back to a 9mm standard.... ^^ Somewhere in there .357 Sig was added and plus P rounds too. The .45 ACP was again chambered in an off the shelf revolver during this time as well

The real thing that was lacking was training and tactics. In which my point was that is always where they lack. Declaring one round better than the other is a very small slice of the pie.
Also, they were up against a carbine. You're gonna be outgunned no matter what pistol you shoot in that situation.

x2!

Not for the faint of heart btw
Murder of Deputy Kyle Dinkheller - Laurens County, GA - YouTube

Hopefully our officers have learnt from this encounter(Ive read they have trained accordingly and use this as material).

 

[Capt Academy]

Tag

 

[Veer_G]

Put enough bullets where they need to go and the bad guy stops being bad. If you carry for a living you probably don't get to pick what you shoot. If you do, get what you shoot well and train until you can't get it wrong. When you can't get it wrong, train some more. This caliber vs caliber stuff is nonsense. Get what you finances and situation will allow and learn to use it well.

Caliber isn't an issue once you get over a certain amount of terminal effect. As was said, it's a matter of shot placement and ease of repeated delivery where it counts. What's more of an issue are ridiculously heavy trigger pulls on DAO systems. I've seen plenty of people who do carry for a living who can barely overcome the shitty lawyercentric triggers with which they're stuck, because, as you said, they don't get to pick. That's a damned sin, especially for someone in uniform.