A&D FX-120i

[mbeavers1]

I'm gonna repost something that is already known on here in hopes that some new reloader will find it and avoid my pain.

The A&D FX-120i is far superior to the RCBS Chargemaster 1500....full stop. I'm an engineer that never believes the hype until I learn for myself and I have. I struggled to believe how inaccurate the CM1500 really could be so here is a real life example for my 6CM.

Setup is complicated (read this as painful) because I am waiting for my Autotrickler V3 to arrive....Im 6 more weeks out. My FX-120i arrived yesterday and I have a PRS shoot Saturday. Only option was to charge using the CM1500 then confirm all 120rds on the FX-120i and adjust with tweezers but because of this I got an upload and personal look at how bad it really was.

My load was developed using 0.3gn increments of H4350. What I found was that my CM1500 was off by +/-0.15gn. Stated another way my ES could be 0.30gn between two rounds in a 3 shot group when doing load development....meaning I could be off basically a full 'step' in my load from where I thought I was. Even then I was getting decent numbers over my 10 shots per charge at around a SD=8 and ES = 22.

With the FX-120i my charge ES is now only 0.02gn. That is a HUGE improvement and and I can't wait to see how those numbers will shrink my groups.

If you can find a way to fund it and are serious about getting the best out of handloads, don't 'think you can get by with the CM1500 and just get the brass prep right. The scale is cheaper than most glass or rifles and will make all of them more accurate and consistent.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I found out how good my beam scale was when I got my first analytical balance.

My old Ohaus 505 had an ES of .09grn and SD of .03grn. This was for 3 separate 30 charge tests. Even with bad technique, it is very easy to keep ES under .15grn.

 

[Maurygold]

That’s a great theory but how about actually extrapolating to real world data with shooting sd. Spending all that money for the fx may not lower your actual sd any and the increased resolution on weighing could realistically have nominal effects on shooting. Sd at muzzle effects bullet trajectory so I would be much more interested in that comparison than the .15 grains of resolution from chargemaster considering the price difference

 

[FatBoy]

Proof isn't in the puddin', it's in the eating. Don't get me wrong, one day I'll have one of these or a Prometheus but Phillip Crowe won the Leech Cup two years in a row shooting ammo un-weight checked from a chargemaster. Find the right node and .1gr - .3hr doesn't mean shit.

 

[mbeavers1]

That’s a great theory but how about actually extrapolating to real world data with shooting sd. Spending all that money for the fx may not lower your actual sd any and the increased resolution on weighing could realistically have nominal effects on shooting. Sd at muzzle effects bullet trajectory so I would be much more interested in that comparison than the .15 grains of resolution from chargemaster considering the price difference

Will be very easy to test. I have 50 rds of Labradar data with SDs and ESs using CM1500. Once I get a chance, I can do the same with FX and compare easily.

 

[straightshooter1]

My load was developed using 0.3gn increments of H4350. What I found was that my CM1500 was off by +/-0.15gn. Stated another way my ES could be 0.30gn between two rounds in a 3 shot group when doing load development....meaning I could be off basically a full 'step' in my load from where I thought I was. Even then I was getting decent numbers over my 10 shots per charge at around a SD=8 and ES = 22.

As usual, one gets what one pays for. The FX-120i no doubt is by far more accurate than the CM1500.

Last year I bought a CM1500 and tuned it to and tried various methods to get it from dropping clumps to something more more like a hand trickler might do. Apparently, RCBS is aware of that issue as they recently came out with their new Matchmaster Powder Dispenser that's supposed to solve that particular issue. But, I don't think they've improved the accuracy of the weighing mechanism.

I found that my CM1500 doesn't have a resolution any better than +/- .08 gr. So, though it might read the charge as being what I'm after, I could have charges with a .16 gr difference. And that DOES show up on paper. For a lot of people, that's good enough. But I prefer something less than +/- .05 resolution.

So, I've resorted to still using my CM1500, but check each charge with a inexpensive GemPro 250 that will measure down to +/- .002. Though I could get single digit SD's with the CM, the ES were in high teens to low 20's (mostly low 20's). Now that I adjust the charges using my GemPro, I've seen my SD's get even lower and my ES's are into the single digits most of the time.

The main reason I don't go with an FX-120i or something like it is I've had my GemPro for a long time and I'm just too cheap to invest in a FX-120i or anything like it for a small improvement. Though I suppose an FX-120i with an autotrickler would surely save some time at the loading bench.

 

[mbeavers1]

Proof isn't in the puddin', it's in the eating. Don't get me wrong, one day I'll have one of these or a Prometheus but Phillip Crowe won the Leech Cup two years in a row shooting ammo un-weight checked from a chargemaster. Find the right node and .1gr - .3hr doesn't mean shit.

I don't totally disagree with you. There have absolutely been people getting it done with the CM1500, especially when they are elite shooters. I was simply stating my experience and I know spent a significant amount of time and $$ at the range finding those nodes. Spending a bit extra at the start may be able to reduce time and $$ by eliminating a variable for a less experienced shooter/loader.

 

[MarinePMI]

Does the additional scale accuracy matter? Short answer is yes.

The long answer is, it really depends on the powder type, size of charge and range that ammunition is being used.

Some powders are more forgiving than others, with variations in the load (i.e. ball versus cylindrical powder).

A .09gr SD is a very different error in a 20gr 17 ︎MachIV load, than say in a 60gr load in a 30-06.

Shooting for groups at 100 is an entirely different requirement than shooting a target at 1k.

So, it really depends. But, why wouldn't you want to remove that variable, if you could?

So yes, the accuracy in the higher end scales do matter...most of the time.

 

[straightshooter1]

As usual, one gets what one pays for. The FX-120i no doubt is by far more accurate than the CM1500.

Last year I bought a CM1500 and tuned it to and tried various methods to get it from dropping clumps to something more more like a hand trickler might do. Apparently, RCBS is aware of that issue as they recently came out with their new Matchmaster Powder Dispenser that's supposed to solve that particular issue. But, I don't think they've improved the accuracy of the weighing mechanism.

I found that my CM1500 doesn't have a resolution any better than +/- .08 gr. So, though it might read the charge as being what I'm after, I could have charges with a .16 gr difference. And that DOES show up on paper. For a lot of people, that's good enough. But I prefer something less than +/- .05 resolution.

So, I've resorted to still using my CM1500, but check each charge with a inexpensive GemPro 250 that will measure down to +/- .002. Though I could get single digit SD's with the CM, the ES were in high teens to low 20's (mostly low 20's). Now that I adjust the charges using my GemPro, I've seen my SD's get even lower and my ES's are into the single digits most of the time.

The main reason I don't go with an FX-120i or something like it is I've had my GemPro for a long time and I'm just too cheap to invest in a FX-120i or anything like it for a small improvement. Though I suppose an FX-120i with an autotrickler would surely save some time at the loading bench.

PS: Now . . . if I could only shoot as well as I reload!

 

[FatBoy]

I don't totally disagree with you. There have absolutely been people getting it done with the CM1500, especially when they are elite shooters. I was simply stating my experience and I know spent a significant amount of time and $$ at the range finding those nodes. Spending a bit extra at the start may be able to reduce time and $$ by eliminating a variable for a less experienced shooter/loader.

And I'm not discounting your experience. I will own one of Adam's setups. If for nothing else than to stop double weighing. I currently check weight off of my 1500s with an Ohaus 10-10. Process is smooth but there always room for improvement .

 

[todd]

I have two tuned CM's and tested both of their accuracies on a friend's Sartorius. All I can say is: I am a self-proclaimed Cheap Bastard, and I have an FX-120i / V3 AutoTrickler on order now.

 

[Maurygold]

I shoot fclass at 600 yards over shotmarker and granted it measures SD at the target not the muzzle there is virtually no difference between my 6 dasher loads using 2 CM lites for powder and my buddy who uses FX120, keep in mind this is across multiple 20 round strings. We shoot identical brass, powder, and bullets.

I understand the argument that downrange SD doesn't reflect sd at the muzzle and I agree that the FX may shot 1 or 2 SD better than the CM lite but if the environment can mitigate the muzzle SD that much to show no sign downrange then how important is a $1200 scale? I am perfectly capable of affording an fx120 but after tracking the SD on target between the two I decided not to purchase the fx120.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I paid $485 shipped for mine. Search SH reloading forum for keyword "Cambridge" for use with ceproducts.com and see if it still works.

EDIT: see my post below (#15) for valid link and discount code

The only time I need to recalibrate mine is if I move it. I put my check weight on it with every use; if the displayed weight is even 0.02 grain "off," it's because the hvac is running.

 

[Maurygold]

@DownhillFromHere appreciate the help I was aware of this but could be good for others. I could never own the scale without the autotrickler setup and it is 1000 I think right now before maybe tax and shipping? But still a phenomenal unit

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I just checked this link , shows the scale at $745 American (by default from the site main page, you get Canadian dollar pricing and the discount code doesn't work). So, via this page, put the scale in the cart, go to checkout, used discount code "CAMBRIDGE" and presto, $465 + shipping.

 

[NamibHunter]

Have upgraded from a Gempro 250 to the FX120 scale and love the speed and stability of the FX120 with the auto trickler setup.

The Gempro was accurate enough, but i accidentally broke two of them. Gave up after the second one died. The Gempro (once calibrated) is pretty accurate, but not quite robust enough (or maybe i am just too rough with my scales). It is affected by air flow so turn off the AC and close the door. I almost never need to calibrate the FX, always spot one. “Force restoration” mechanism is very quick to settle down and very repeatable. If you use all four of the screens and cut a small hole to put the pan and trickler barrel through, the AC effect is far less of an issue.

However, don’t use plastic pans like the one below, static electricity will eventually build up and several kernels will stick to it and not drop into the funnel and into the case. Metal or glass pans are far better.

So in this actual test 5 phantom kernels stayed behind in the plastic pan due to static electricity. That is 0.12 gn of error with this powder, which is too much. Now the $1000 plus setup is no better than a standard scale plus manual trickler, or a ChargeMaster. User error for sure, but just saying.

I have trickled 50 rounds on the FX120/auto-trickler setup, to the exact number, then put a bullet wrong-way down in the neck to close off each of the cases to prevent spillage. Then reweighed them a second time three hours later. Numbers were between -0.02 to 0.02 different. Some were the same. Maybe a kernel got stuck in the flash hole and refuses to drop out even if you vigorously tap the case with a screw driver. But i doubt. Maybe the powder is absorbing water vapor (humidity effect). Probably true, but that happens in a two hour reloading session anyway.

I think wind / air flow, vibration from the Walmart truck passing in the road, loud music from the moody teenager next door, and ambient temp changes induce a 0.03 to 0.04 gn error in the FX results. I don’t have a Sartorius to compare to, but i bet you will see an error of about this magnitude (around 2 kernels of error), which is just fine. [Don’t mean to offend anybody, but IMHO the Sartorius is better than it needs to be as a reloading scale. Probably good for sorting primers if that is something you do.]

BTW: No digital scale has accuracy exactly equal to its resolution. [Ran a similar experiment with the Gempro and it showed an ES of 0.06 gn. Mostly wind effect and scale drift.]

My muzzle velocity SDs between the Gempro and FX reloads were very similar (6-9 fps for large sample size, shot strings of between 30 and 50).

So the FX plus autotrickler setup did not gain me better accuracy. Maybe it would when one day when i finally solve my weakest-link-problem elsewhere.... But the new Autotrickler setup is so much more convenient, and faster. And i have not yet managed to damage the FX120...

For me, it has mainly been a productivity gain. And no i am not selling it!

Bryan Litz ran a similar experiment and published the results in one of his latest books (worth reading), and came to the same conclusion: An electronic scale with 0.1 gn resolution clearly outperforms a standard beam scale bought from Midway and likely (badly) made in China. [I know a tuned mechanical scale made decades ago and optimized by a real specialist can be very accurate, but still slow.] A milligram lab scale with 0.02 gn resolution (0.04 gn actual repeatability) only slightly outperformed the CM in terms of lower SD in the muzzle velocity.

 

[straightshooter1]

Have upgraded from a Gempro 250 to the FX120 scale and love the speed and stability of the FX120 with the auto trickler setup.

The Gempro was accurate enough, but i accidentally broke two of them. Gave up after the second one died. The Gempro (once calibrated) is pretty accurate, but not quite robust enough (or maybe i am just too rough with my scales). It is affected by air flow so turn off the AC and close the door. I almost never need to calibrate the FX, always spot one. “Force restoration” mechanism is very quick to settle down and very repeatable. If you use all four of the screens and cut a small hole to put the pan and trickler barrel through, the AC effect is far less of an issue.

View attachment 7372592

However, don’t use plastic pans like the one below, static electricity will eventually build up and several kernels will stick to it and not drop into the funnel and into the case. Metal or glass pans are far better.

View attachment 7372593

So in this actual test 5 phantom kernels stayed behind in the plastic pan due to static electricity. That is 1.1 gn of error with this powder, which is too much. Now the $1000 plus setup is no better than a standard scale plus manual trickler, or a ChargeMaster. User error for sure, but just saying.

I have trickled 50 rounds on the FX120/auto-trickler setup, to the exact number, then put a bullet wrong-way down in the neck to close off each of the cases to prevent spillage. Then reweighed them a second time three hours later. Numbers were between -0.02 to 0.02 different. Some were the same. Maybe a kernel got stuck in the flash hole and refuses to drop out even if you vigorously tap the case with a screw driver. But i doubt. Maybe the powder is absorbing water vapor (humidity effect). Probably true, but that happens in a two hour reloading session anyway.

I think wind / air flow, vibration from the Walmart truck passing in the road, loud music from the moody teenager next door, and ambient temp changes induce a 0.03 to 0.04 gn error in the FX results. I don’t have a Sartorius to compare to, but i bet you will see an error of about this magnitude (around 2 kernels of error), which is just fine. [Don’t mean to offend anybody, but IMHO the Sartorius is better than it needs to be as a reloading scale. Probably good for sorting primers if that is something you do.]

BTW: No digital scale has accuracy exactly equal to its resolution. [Ran a similar experiment with the Gempro and it showed an ES of 0.06 gn. Mostly wind effect and scale drift.]

My muzzle velocity SDs between the Gempro and FX reloads were very similar (6-9 fps for large sample size, shot strings of between 30 and 50).

So the FX plus autotrickler setup did not gain me better accuracy. Maybe it would when one day when i finally solve my weakest-link-problem elsewhere.... But the new Autotrickler setup is so much more convenient, and faster. And i have not yet managed to damage the FX120...

For me, it has mainly been a productivity gain. And no i am not selling it!

Bryan Litz ran a similar experiment and published it in one of his latest books (worth reading), and came to the same conclusion.

I really appreciate your report here as I use a GemPro 250 myself and get MV SD's with my .308 cartridges much the same as you have. My GemPro tends to give me an ES of .04 grs when I use a particular method of sitting the powder pan onto it. And you're right about being sure there's no air movement on the scale. I also learned not to lean on my counter top, as heavy duty as it is, somehow the scale fluctuates when I do (much be some flex that disturbs it, like changing from its level).

I throw my powder with an RCBS Charge Master 1500, then trickle to the weight I'm after. The Charge Master does a pretty good job for the most part in producing low SD's, but every so often (too often for me) it'll have one way off that ruins a group of shots (the Charge Master's ES is around .9 grs). So, the GemPro helps quite a bit. I've had it for a couple years now and so far, so good and hoping it'll last for many more. If not, I'll be going to an FX120.

 

[NamibHunter]

Somebody else also mentioned that if your load development was well executed and your final load is sitting on a flat spot in the speed vs powder graph, often also the point where speed SD is minimized, and maybe you got good or lucky and your load has been optimized for positive compensation at a longer distance while staying inside the speed node, then even 0.15 gn errors should not shift the MV much, or shift the POI too badly at distance. Under these ideal but hard to preserve conditions, a 0.15 grain scale will appear totally adequate.

Of course all powders are a little temp sensitive no matter how good the marketing department claims it is, and a round cooking in a hot chamber for too long can gain you 15 fps or more. All of that can push you out of the speed node you worked so hard to find. So having one less “wild” variable (powder weight variation) is often enough of a real benefit.

A confounding factor is optical effects like heavy midday mirage, clouds moving in that causes a shift in POI due to less mirage (a temporary effect), and a hot barrel that can shift your sight picture from all that hot air boiling off in front of the scope objective lens. Nobody in PRS seems to use a mirage screen attach via velcro to the barrel, seems to be a BR and F class thing only. Shooting without an accurate crony, we incorrectly conclude that the round must have been exceptionally slow or fast , because of where the bullet hit, when in reality it was a perfectly constructed round, but optical effects interfered. Labradar is a game changer in this application.

 

[BFuller]

Will be very easy to test. I have 50 rds of Labradar data with SDs and ESs using CM1500. Once I get a chance, I can do the same with FX and compare easily.

Have you done that comparison? I'm thinking about a fx120i.

 

[sleeplz]

Have you done that comparison? I'm thinking about a fx120i.

Do it, don't waste any more of your life waiting. Unless it puts you in the negative and not able to buy GME.

 

[ChristianSilver]

My V3 shipped from CE Products this week and should be here end of next week.

My CM1500 has served me well. Just curious as to how much off it’s been all this time. Will report back...

 

[ACard]

I'm gonna repost something that is already known on here in hopes that some new reloader will find it and avoid my pain.

The A&D FX-120i is far superior to the RCBS Chargemaster 1500....full stop. I'm an engineer that never believes the hype until I learn for myself and I have. I struggled to believe how inaccurate the CM1500 really could be so here is a real life example for my 6CM.

Setup is complicated (read this as painful) because I am waiting for my Autotrickler V3 to arrive....Im 6 more weeks out. My FX-120i arrived yesterday and I have a PRS shoot Saturday. Only option was to charge using the CM1500 then confirm all 120rds on the FX-120i and adjust with tweezers but because of this I got an upload and personal look at how bad it really was.

My load was developed using 0.3gn increments of H4350. What I found was that my CM1500 was off by +/-0.15gn. Stated another way my ES could be 0.30gn between two rounds in a 3 shot group when doing load development....meaning I could be off basically a full 'step' in my load from where I thought I was. Even then I was getting decent numbers over my 10 shots per charge at around a SD=8 and ES = 22.

With the FX-120i my charge ES is now only 0.02gn. That is a HUGE improvement and and I can't wait to see how those numbers will shrink my groups.

If you can find a way to fund it and are serious about getting the best out of handloads, don't 'think you can get by with the CM1500 and just get the brass prep right. The scale is cheaper than most glass or rifles and will make all of them more accurate and consistent.

I had exactly the same revelations! That said I have also done some shooting to experiment with rounds loaded to same theoretical standards using the two different devices. Short story is in the picture. Shooting my 338 LM I was never able to achieve groups like the following pucture shows. The flyer at 3 o'clock was a fouler round I let my son send, he surprised me with his impact so I stayed on same target. The group on the 9 side is 5 rounds of 338LM at 100. 300 gn A-Tips on top of 91.6 gns of H1000.

Yes it was a pain to weigh each load and adjust with tweezers but imo the results are very worth it. I cannot wait for the rest of my V3 to come in!

 

[MarinePMI]

I have, and here is what I saw when comparing the CM1500 and GemPro250 to my FX120i:

View attachment 7542000
View attachment 7542001

Am I missing something? I don't seem to see anything relating to the Fx-120, only the CM1500 and GP250...

And the SD/ES is for both? Or which side of the column? Shouldn't there be SD/ES's for both the CM1500 charges and SD/ES's for the GP250?

ETA: Or is that the SD/ES of the charges themselves (not necessarily ES/SD's as they were recorded shot from a rifle)?

 

[BFuller]

I have, and here is what I saw when comparing the CM1500 and GemPro250 to my FX120i (the numbers for the weights are from the FX120i):

View attachment 7542000
View attachment 7542001

Thanks for the numbers, those are useful. I was meaning shooting a set of rounds prepared with CM1500 vs FX-120i, to see the measurable SD and ES for muzzle velocity.

 

[BuLLet]

Ordered the whole kit! This will make a nice addition to the reloading room.

 

[Steel head]

I had exactly the same revelations! That said I have also done some shooting to experiment with rounds loaded to same theoretical standards using the two different devices. Short story is in the picture. Shooting my 338 LM I was never able to achieve groups like the following pucture shows. The flyer at 3 o'clock was a fouler round I let my son send, he surprised me with his impact so I stayed on same target. The group on the 9 side is 5 rounds of 338LM at 100. 300 gn A-Tips on top of 91.6 gns of H1000.

Yes it was a pain to weigh each load and adjust with tweezers but imo the results are very worth it. I cannot wait for the rest of my V3 to come in!

View attachment 7541950

If tiny powder changes effects your groups I’m pretty suspicious of your load development.

 

[straightshooter1]

Am I missing something? I don't seem to see anything relating to the Fx-120, only the CM1500 and GP250...

You're right! I rushed and grabbed the wrong file. that was just the comparison between my CM1500 and my GP250 and testing to see how the length of the straw would vary the throws (which works best for better throws).

And the SD/ES is for both? Or which side of the column? Shouldn't there be SD/ES's for both the CM1500 charges and SD/ES's for the GP250?

The SD's and ES's are for the column they reside in (like for the GP250 only).

ETA: Or is that the SD/ES of the charges themselves (not necessarily ES/SD's as they were recorded shot from a rifle)?

Nope. It's not anything from shooting. It's just the stats from the throws.

Sorry for the confusion. The following post has the data I meant to post.

 

[straightshooter1]

Thanks for the numbers, those are useful. I was meaning shooting a set of rounds prepared with CM1500 vs FX-120i, to see the measurable SD and ES for muzzle velocity.

I screwed up that post, so here is the one I meant to have that has the comparative data for the FX120i. What I did here was throw from my CM1500 and then weigh the very same throw on the other scales and that's what you see in the columns to the right of the CM1500 column. The SD's and ES's at the bottom are from the weights shown in the same column. Note the far right set of columns includes my little Frankford Arsenal DS-750, which was remarkably the same as the CM1500 (except for the last one, anyway).

Below, is chrono numbers from throws as measured with my CM1500 (note the more accurate measurement in the blue area taken from the FX120i) and the next set of ten are as they were measured rom the FX210i. Looking at the chrono data (from a MagnetoSpeed) you can see how much the accuracy of powder measure made and I included the group size I got (at the bottom of the blue area). With my FX120i, I typically get single digit SD's and mid teen ES for my .308 tuned cartridges.

PS: Each powder weight shown in blue is next to the corresponding velocity for that cartridge fired.

 

[sig2009]

As usual, one gets what one pays for. The FX-120i no doubt is by far more accurate than the CM1500.

Last year I bought a CM1500 and tuned it to and tried various methods to get it from dropping clumps to something more more like a hand trickler might do. Apparently, RCBS is aware of that issue as they recently came out with their new Matchmaster Powder Dispenser that's supposed to solve that particular issue. But, I don't think they've improved the accuracy of the weighing mechanism.

I found that my CM1500 doesn't have a resolution any better than +/- .08 gr. So, though it might read the charge as being what I'm after, I could have charges with a .16 gr difference. And that DOES show up on paper. For a lot of people, that's good enough. But I prefer something less than +/- .05 resolution.

So, I've resorted to still using my CM1500, but check each charge with a inexpensive GemPro 250 that will measure down to +/- .002. Though I could get single digit SD's with the CM, the ES were in high teens to low 20's (mostly low 20's). Now that I adjust the charges using my GemPro, I've seen my SD's get even lower and my ES's are into the single digits most of the time.

The main reason I don't go with an FX-120i or something like it is I've had my GemPro for a long time and I'm just too cheap to invest in a FX-120i or anything like it for a small improvement. Though I suppose an FX-120i with an autotrickler would surely save some time at the loading bench.

The GemPro 250 was discontinued because they had accuracy problems with the scale so using that to check another scales readings are worthless. I had 2 Gempros go south and they now do not have any replacements for the bad ones. They just refund your purchase price.

 

[NamibHunter]

You are correct that the FX120 is a major upgrade compared to any scale with a 0.1 gn resolution. I have a V1 Autotrickler system, and i love it! Will probably at some point upgrade to the V3.

Even though superb, the FX120 does not always deliver 0.02 accuracy over 100 rounds, as it can occasionally drift. This is fairly rare, but it can happen if ambient conditions change. You have to preheat the scale for at least 15 minutes before use or there will be substantial drift. I just keep it on for days at a time.

Also, you can load very good ammo with 0.04 gn resolution, because other factors like neck tension differences, bullet and primer weight variations and progressive barrel fouling dominate once you load to two kernel accuracy. In my experience, 2 kernel accuracy is the point of diminishing returns.

My FX120 scale runs on a high end power filter/surge suppressor, and is sitting on an anti-static mat which is properly earthed to avoid static buildup, no fluorescent lights anywhere.

A stray kernel can accidentally get onto your scale tray and go unnoticed for a while. You really have to keep an eye on the negative number every time you remove the pan. Train yourself to look at it before you dump the powder into the case. Once or twice in a loading session you will see that “something” has happened.

Have run the experiment where i loaded 50 rounds as best i can, tweezer in hand, then carefully put bullets upside down in each case to prevent spillage, waited a few hours, and then weighed them all a second time, being super careful. ES was 0.06 gn (2-3 kernel accuracy) and SD was 0.016 gn. Good but not perfect. [Btw: This testing method is flawed: Ideally we should use a Sartorius GD503 or equivalent scale that has 0.001 gn resolution. Since i don’t own one me did the best me could.]

Yes - by all means get one, it is superb, just learn how to use it well: It is sensitive to drafts, so turn off the AC and close the door. I cut a small rectangular hole in the bottom of the front screen and made it slightly larger than the pan, and cut a round hole in the side screen for the trickler spout. Note: If you remove one of the screens, your measurement error will double to 0.07 gn or more. If you use it with no screens, accuracy is less than 0.1 gn and you have wasted your money. If you don’t believe me, try it both ways.

Also: It needs to be mounted on a stable flat surface, and no milligram scale likes vibration, like a truck passing in the street, or the user bumping the table. A granite slab helps. Just mark the position of the feet on the mat and mark the position of the mat on the table so you can pick up if anything got bumped or moved, and recalibrate the scale.

My SDs came down from 12 fps to 6-9 fps range when switching from a 0.1 scale to a 0.02 scale. But understand that in reality it is closer to a 0.05 gn scale. And neck tension differences have a bigger impact than 2 kernels of powder. [Buying a scale capable of 0.001 gn (1/10’th of a kernel of powder) is overkill IMHO (unless you plan to split kernels with a carpet knife???), but if budget is no constraint, go for it. If you are in the BR game and weight sort your primers, you will appreciate the extra resolution. ]

Good luck!

 

[straightshooter1]

The GemPro 250 was discontinued because they had accuracy problems with the scale so using that to check another scales readings are worthless. I had 2 Gempros go south and they now do not have any replacements for the bad ones. They just refund your purchase price.

I simply recorded the same powder throw weights as measured on each scale. Ever since I got my GemPro250 it seemed to function just fine (though it does have a tendency to drift A LITTLE) though I often wondered how it might compare to an FX-120i in terms of accuracy and consistency. Well. . . look at the numbers and judge for yourself. This is NOT to say all GemPro-250's work over all as well and not that it is even in any way equivalent to an FX-120i.

 

[louu]

I just loaded my first 10 rounds on the fx120i and all I can say is wow. I've been using the gem pro 250 for about 2 years now and it's always been super frustrating because it drifts all over the place and never holds zero not to mention how slow it is. Oh yeah and it doesn't always pick up what I'm putting down, meaning I'll be dropping 7 or 8 kernals of varget and it just stays in the same spot then it jumps up .8 or more.

The fx120i is instant and accurate. I went back a half hour later and weighed all 10 charges again and they were all exactly the same. I never thought a digital scale could do that.

So happy I upgraded. Hoping it warms up a little so I can get to the range and chrono these rounds. I'll post my results when I do.

 

[NamibHunter]

I simply recorded the same powder throw weights as measured on each scale. Ever since I got my GemPro250 it seemed to function just fine (though it does have a tendency to drift A LITTLE) though I often wondered how it might compare to an FX-120i in terms of accuracy and consistency. Well. . . look at the numbers and judge for yourself. This is NOT to say all GemPro-250's work over all as well and not that it is even in any way equivalent to an FX-120i.

I used the GemPro250 for several years, and it was better than all the low cost electronics scales that i tried before. Drift can be an issue and re-zeroing is periodically needed, perhaps every 10-20 rounds. I had two of them over a 4 year period, and loaded accurate ammo with it that shot pretty well at 600 yards. Sadly, both broke down.

But do we really need a milligram scale? Good load development can hide small errors in powder charge, especially once you figure out how to get positive compensation to be your friend. A perfect scale is not strictly needed if you do good load development, until ambient temp and throat erosion pushes you outside of the node.

Then took the plunge and got the FX120i, i reasoned it was the same price as two Gempros, and what a difference that made! You load faster, with high confidence, and the SDs did come down. Productivity gain especially once combined with the Autotrickler is substantial. Vertical dispersion (waterline) at 600 came down to 2” or under - after dialing in positive compensation.

IMO: If you have a Gempro, and you are happy with it, keep using it. If it dies on you, think about upgrading to the FX120...

The FX120i is not cheap, but worth it, once you are ready for an upgrade. Once you get it, you will never let go of it!

 

[Rocketmandb]

The FX120i is not cheap, but worth it, once you are ready for an upgrade. Once you get it, you will never let go of it!

I spent about as much on the three scales I had before I got my 120i, so "not cheap" is relative

That was before I knew about the super secret reloader pricing from the same folks that sell the AutoTrickler stuff. I wasn't willing to spend ~$800 - $900 on just the scale. Under $500? Definitely.

 

[ChristianSilver]

Mine V3 arrived yesterday... Now to get home and see what I’ve been missing..

Anti-static mat and 18x18x3 granite plate. A-Static to be delivered Tuesday..
Will pick up granite on way home from NM...

 

[NamibHunter]

Mine V3 arrived yesterday... Now to get home and see what I’ve been missing..

Anti-static mat and 18x18x3 granite plate. A-Static to be delivered Tuesday..
Will pick up granite on way home from NM...

Exciting day! Post an update once you have it all set up.

You will find that the scale needs to heat up for the reading to stabilize, at least 15 minutes, but 30 minutes is better. Or just leave it on and get a lightning / surge protector.

Confident you will like it!

 

[Sniperwannabee]

Mine V3 arrived yesterday... Now to get home and see what I’ve been missing..

Anti-static mat and 18x18x3 granite plate. A-Static to be delivered Tuesday..
Will pick up granite on way home from NM...

What’s the mat for? Got a link? Can’t you just use a aluminum funnel

 

[Steel head]

I don’t use any of that fancy stuff.

Plug it in, warm it up, get to it.

 

[918v]

I'm gonna repost something that is already known on here in hopes that some new reloader will find it and avoid my pain.

The A&D FX-120i is far superior to the RCBS Chargemaster 1500....full stop. I'm an engineer that never believes the hype until I learn for myself and I have. I struggled to believe how inaccurate the CM1500 really could be so here is a real life example for my 6CM.

Setup is complicated (read this as painful) because I am waiting for my Autotrickler V3 to arrive....Im 6 more weeks out. My FX-120i arrived yesterday and I have a PRS shoot Saturday. Only option was to charge using the CM1500 then confirm all 120rds on the FX-120i and adjust with tweezers but because of this I got an upload and personal look at how bad it really was.

My load was developed using 0.3gn increments of H4350. What I found was that my CM1500 was off by +/-0.15gn. Stated another way my ES could be 0.30gn between two rounds in a 3 shot group when doing load development....meaning I could be off basically a full 'step' in my load from where I thought I was. Even then I was getting decent numbers over my 10 shots per charge at around a SD=8 and ES = 22.

With the FX-120i my charge ES is now only 0.02gn. That is a HUGE improvement and and I can't wait to see how those numbers will shrink my groups.

If you can find a way to fund it and are serious about getting the best out of handloads, don't 'think you can get by with the CM1500 and just get the brass prep right. The scale is cheaper than most glass or rifles and will make all of them more accurate and consistent.

Your ES is not .02gr. The linearity of the FX120 is plus minus .04gr. That means your ES is .08gr.

 

[padom]

Will be very easy to test. I have 50 rds of Labradar data with SDs and ESs using CM1500. Once I get a chance, I can do the same with FX and compare easily.

We've tested this to DEATH years ago. I ran 2 CM 1500 side by side shoot loads with single digit SD's for many years. It throws to within 0.1..

The key is load development. If you're in the center of a node that variation doesn't matter. This isn't new news


My A&D Fx V3 auto throw and trickler setup is awesome and fast. But you can make very accurate, low SD ammo on a CM

 

[ACard]

We've tested this to DEATH years ago. I ran 2 CM 1500 side by side shoot loads with single digit SD's for many years. It throws to within 0.1..

The key is load development. If you're in the center of a node that variation doesn't matter. This isn't new news


My A&D Fx V3 auto throw and trickler setup is awesome and fast. But you can make very accurate, low SD ammo on a CM

could not agree more, though I also own 2 CM's and while RCBS claims accuracy to 0.1 gns. Mine have never done better than 0.2 and typically throw no better than 0.4 and as you mention slow compared to AT V3.

 

[ChristianSilver]

 

[ChristianSilver]

My A&D Fx V3 auto throw and trickler setup is awesome and fast. But you can make very accurate, low SD ammo on a CM

Fast, that’s the key... I know my way around my CM1500, done some upgrades but its slow.
I can make good loads with it, my nodes are good. But it’s slow, less time on the press means a lot to me. I enjoy it but...

V3 will speed the process up so much..

 

[Cascade Hemi]

The major benefit of the AT V3 isn't that it resolves to .02gr, it is that it isn't a load cell. Load cells suck for a variety of reasons and it isn't because they can't also measure .02gr because they can.

 

[PFG]

How many folks are under throwing charges "by hand" (with a manual powder throw) to get close, then tossing the pan into the V3 to auto trickle up to the desired throw?

That seems like it could potentially be as fast as using the full AT V3 set up, no? Or darn close once you have the manual powder thrower dialed in.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

How many folks are under throwing charges "by hand" (with a manual powder throw) to get close, then tossing the pan into the V3 to auto trickle up to the desired throw?

That seems like it could potentially be as fast as using the full AT V3 set up, no? Or darn close once you have the manual powder thrower dialed in.

The AT V3 already under throws the charge and then trickles up. That is the entire system.

 

[padom]

How many folks are under throwing charges "by hand" (with a manual powder throw) to get close, then tossing the pan into the V3 to auto trickle up to the desired throw?

That seems like it could potentially be as fast as using the full AT V3 set up, no? Or darn close once you have the manual powder thrower dialed in.

Used to do it that way before they came out with an auto throw...no, its as fast as dumping, then setting back on scale. It's FAST

 

[straightshooter1]

How many folks are under throwing charges "by hand" (with a manual powder throw) to get close, then tossing the pan into the V3 to auto trickle up to the desired throw?

That seems like it could potentially be as fast as using the full AT V3 set up, no? Or darn close once you have the manual powder thrower dialed in.

Yup, that's what I do and as you suggest, it's actually rather fast as trickling up to get the weight down to a single kernel doesn't take long. Having to use a manual thrower takes up a little more space, but . . . it's certainly better and faster than my CM.

 

[Heavyopp]

How many folks are under throwing charges "by hand" (with a manual powder throw) to get close, then tossing the pan into the V3 to auto trickle up to the desired throw?

That seems like it could potentially be as fast as using the full AT V3 set up, no? Or darn close once you have the manual powder thrower dialed in.

I think the autothrow needs the scale to read 0.02 or less to automatically start — by dropping a pan already close you would need to manually start the autothrow trickler

I do not have the autothrow setup but I did just recieve the fx scale this afternoon — ordered it Tuesday, delivered today (friday) — less than 96 hours from order to delivery — I’m in NJ

I was thinking of just ordering the auto trickler — I already have a 3br powder measure bought back in the 90’s — well made and works great

Thinking out loud here but why not drop the empty pan on the scale, get the trickler running, then drop a short charge out of the 3br into a pan — have a funnel, of the proper length, dropping through the hole in the windscreen of the FX and into the pan thats getting charged by the auto trickler — drop the charge in the pan from the manual measure through the funnel and into the pan on the scale

I just don’t see this method taking much more time and it doesn’t make my redding 3br obsolete

 

[Graye2]

I think the autothrow needs the scale to read 0.02 or less to automatically start — by dropping a pan already close you would need to manually start the autothrow trickler

You can manually dump charges and let the AutoTrickler finish them off for you. When I load with N570 it clogs the auto throw so this is exactly what I do...manually throw a charge with a Lee scoop and then trickle up. Just disable auto throw in the app.