Thank you for your thoughtful, analytical post. This is very helpful in thing this choice through.
Best regards,
FH
Best regards,
FH
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Accuracy International AIAW vs. Sako TRG-22 - My Experience with Both
- Thread starter XOR
- Start date
Now go try out an AX. It will blow your mind and have you selling both your AX and TRG to get the AX or two. 
The AX trigger is very much an improvement over the AW.
Also:
1) Make it a couple pounds lighter. -- AX
2) Emulate the Sako bipod in terms of mounting barrel height, legs that don't fold back on you, spiked bipod feet, and bipod feet that don't shoot out on their own. Keep the rapid deployment and swiveling part of the existing bipod.-- AX definitely has the bipod mounted more at barrel level
3) More ergonomic forearm for positional shooting comfort (somewhat done in new pistol grip sides or Viperskins) -- AX
4) Sell an optional plastic adapter that can slip over/clip on the metal trigger to insulate the shooter's finger from the cold metal. -- AX
5) Flush mount magazine on the stock like the TRG. -- well kinda AX they added a side slot.
The AX trigger is very much an improvement over the AW.Also:
1) Make it a couple pounds lighter. -- AX
2) Emulate the Sako bipod in terms of mounting barrel height, legs that don't fold back on you, spiked bipod feet, and bipod feet that don't shoot out on their own. Keep the rapid deployment and swiveling part of the existing bipod.-- AX definitely has the bipod mounted more at barrel level
3) More ergonomic forearm for positional shooting comfort (somewhat done in new pistol grip sides or Viperskins) -- AX
4) Sell an optional plastic adapter that can slip over/clip on the metal trigger to insulate the shooter's finger from the cold metal. -- AX
5) Flush mount magazine on the stock like the TRG. -- well kinda AX they added a side slot.
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Well you've pretty much ruined gun magazines for me. I'm not sure anyone is currently working that could compete with your comparison. Thank you. And it was timely for me. Even though you had your preferences, it was written in such a way that one had enough information to come to a different conclusion. And you weren't annoying or an arse.
Now here's a few subjects I'm sure many of us would appreciate you get right on; comparisons of:
Clip on NV devices
Powder scale/dispenser combos
Reloading presses and bullet feeders
Laser rangefinders
And a host of other subjects that could fill the page.
Thanks again.
Now here's a few subjects I'm sure many of us would appreciate you get right on; comparisons of:
Clip on NV devices
Powder scale/dispenser combos
Reloading presses and bullet feeders
Laser rangefinders
And a host of other subjects that could fill the page.
Thanks again.
I have not handled an AX, but here are my questions/comments:
I don't think the AX is 2lbs. lighter. The weight difference was reported as negligible. AI's website lists the rifle weights as the same.
Unfortunately, they got rid of the spigot mount. The spigot is simple. I just plug the bipod in and don't worry about it. It will never come loose and when I want it off, I press the button and it comes out in one second. I am reluctant to lose this feature.
Has anyone that has used the AI spigot ended up missing it on the AX? I tried a Harris on my AW and it was fine, but I still think I prefer the AI bipod a little more.
I need to try the AX, but it looks like they reduced the amount of forearm space. Sometimes in non-bipod shooting w/sling my hand may be in different positions depending on the terrain, angle, etc. Sometimes I grab out almost to the forward sling mount stud. I am worried that now when I do that I'll be grabbing a cold metal rounded shroud instead of a flat bottom foregrip with smooth insulated plastic sides.
Anyone doing sling supported prone, sitting, and kneeling? Can anyone comment on the comfort of the AX when not using a bipod or support vs. the AW? I do bipod a lot, but also do non-supported so I need to know how it compares to the AW.
EDIT: Looks like the AX trigger is synthetic, so the cold trigger issue is resolved.
It is not flush as I can see from the photos. Not like the TRG.
I need to try the AX to make a better judgement call on this. But the AX basically looks like it only gives me more mounting options and they took away some features I use frequently when I'm out shooting (spigot mount and foregrip space).
If anyone has some answers to these questions, I'm all ears. Ultimately I just need to get on one and feel what the differences are.
beenjammin said:
I don't think the AX is 2lbs. lighter. The weight difference was reported as negligible. AI's website lists the rifle weights as the same.
Unfortunately, they got rid of the spigot mount. The spigot is simple. I just plug the bipod in and don't worry about it. It will never come loose and when I want it off, I press the button and it comes out in one second. I am reluctant to lose this feature.
Has anyone that has used the AI spigot ended up missing it on the AX? I tried a Harris on my AW and it was fine, but I still think I prefer the AI bipod a little more.
I need to try the AX, but it looks like they reduced the amount of forearm space. Sometimes in non-bipod shooting w/sling my hand may be in different positions depending on the terrain, angle, etc. Sometimes I grab out almost to the forward sling mount stud. I am worried that now when I do that I'll be grabbing a cold metal rounded shroud instead of a flat bottom foregrip with smooth insulated plastic sides.
Anyone doing sling supported prone, sitting, and kneeling? Can anyone comment on the comfort of the AX when not using a bipod or support vs. the AW? I do bipod a lot, but also do non-supported so I need to know how it compares to the AW.
EDIT: Looks like the AX trigger is synthetic, so the cold trigger issue is resolved.
It is not flush as I can see from the photos. Not like the TRG.
I need to try the AX to make a better judgement call on this. But the AX basically looks like it only gives me more mounting options and they took away some features I use frequently when I'm out shooting (spigot mount and foregrip space).
If anyone has some answers to these questions, I'm all ears. Ultimately I just need to get on one and feel what the differences are.
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Thanks a lot for such unbiased and in-depth review. Fantastic job you've done. More importantly you compared face to face some of the two best LR precision rifles out there.
Excellent review, thanks for making the effort. It really is outstanding.
I would like to contribute an anecdotal counterpoint to your experience with Beretta USA service for the TRG. Surely the reputation they have has been earned. However, my experience was markedly different. I recently purchased a demo TRG-22 folder. One of the chassis bolts was missing. I identified the part group from the schematic (bolts are not individually numbered) and contacted the dealer that sold it to me. He called his Beretta rep who contacted me within 20 minutes. He took my information and the part group number and sent it in to Customer Service, with cc: to me. I had an entire new part group (i.e. all the bolts and washers) in 2 days, no charge of course. I was more than satisified.
I never called the service line, so maybe that is why I did not get the run around like you did. Given the reputation, I was expecting to start leafing through the McMaster-Carr catalog while I waited for the "special" Sako chassis bolt to get imported from Finland (I'm OCD that way). The reality was much the opposite, and I was impressed.
I would like to contribute an anecdotal counterpoint to your experience with Beretta USA service for the TRG. Surely the reputation they have has been earned. However, my experience was markedly different. I recently purchased a demo TRG-22 folder. One of the chassis bolts was missing. I identified the part group from the schematic (bolts are not individually numbered) and contacted the dealer that sold it to me. He called his Beretta rep who contacted me within 20 minutes. He took my information and the part group number and sent it in to Customer Service, with cc: to me. I had an entire new part group (i.e. all the bolts and washers) in 2 days, no charge of course. I was more than satisified.
I never called the service line, so maybe that is why I did not get the run around like you did. Given the reputation, I was expecting to start leafing through the McMaster-Carr catalog while I waited for the "special" Sako chassis bolt to get imported from Finland (I'm OCD that way). The reality was much the opposite, and I was impressed.
Glad to hear about your experience with Beretta USA. I was able to order spare parts from Brownell's pretty easily for the major things (like the trigger group and firing pin). I keep a spare firing pin with my TRG field kit and liked the fact that I could easily order it.
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Excellent review and much appreciated. I don't get to shoot my TRG as often as I like but it is an absolute pleasure when I do.
Looks like the TRG 2013 updates took care of some of the issues I pointed out in my review:
http://www.sako.fi/sakotrg_upgrade.php
- Improved trigger group.
- Better ejection on the TRG-42 model.
- Bolt handle is reportedly now more robust.
- Bolt release is now more robust.
These tweaks make an already great rifle even better.
http://www.sako.fi/sakotrg_upgrade.php
- Improved trigger group.
- Better ejection on the TRG-42 model.
- Bolt handle is reportedly now more robust.
- Bolt release is now more robust.
These tweaks make an already great rifle even better.
I would like to know as well.
I haven't been keeping up with the changes, but shortly before the AX achieved wide release, there was rumors that there was going to be a match trigger available for the AW. As a matter of fact, someone on here has a trigger that was prototyped or specially made with a lighter pull. But this was made a few years ago.
Unfortunately, I remember someone saying that there is significant changes to the AX that the trigger is not interchangeable.
Very nicely written up. I shoot the TRG as a duty rifle and find it outstanding, but the points you bring up are valid. I have demo'd the AI and find it outstanding as well. At this level, it's as much a personal preference and a 'fit' thing as anything else. As the OP points out, the accuracy and function of each rifle is so close as to be a non-issue.
Excellent review and this is a post that probably should be mde sticky. Those who are looking at a top-notch rifle need to read this... because compared to a lot of customs, these rifles both deliver, right out of the box.
Cheers and thanks, OP, for taking the time to write this up so thoroughly.
Sirhr
Excellent review and this is a post that probably should be mde sticky. Those who are looking at a top-notch rifle need to read this... because compared to a lot of customs, these rifles both deliver, right out of the box.
Cheers and thanks, OP, for taking the time to write this up so thoroughly.
Sirhr
I can't see myself ever selling my AIAW .308 . Every time I take it to the range I enjoy it more and more. The other rifles I have I find frustrating . especially my hunting guns , except for one. I have a cooper .204 and its a pleasure to shoot also. They bring another dimension to the table. With both you can watch the vapor trail and hit on target. Both are more gun than me. Almost every Friday morning a group of very good shooters are at the range I go to, I get the impression they may be L.E. They ask to shoot the AIAW and of coarse I said sure. Every one was as impressed as I still am. My hunting rifles are not custom in any way , so you expect 1" to 2" groups at 100 yards and I would feel comfortable with 200 to 300 yard shot on deer size animals but its frustrating to not be very sure where your bullet is going to go. Sorry to dribble on but I do like the AI thumb hole and all. I tried the viperskins and took back off, I also like the trigger.
Called AI today. The AX and AW trigger are the same trigger. It will fit an AW. Only difference is the metal trigger shoe to the plastic AX shoe other than the shoe there is no difference is what I was told. To replace to the new trigger was quoted around $700
Shit! $700 is ridiculous. I have an AW and had an AX. I couldn't set my AX trigger anywhere near as light as my AW. Needless to say there's no way I'd replace the AW trigger for that much. Hell, I'd still have my AX if I could have made the trigger feel like my AW trigger.
Thanks for that. I'm happy with the metal trigger geometry on the AI (except that it is cold when it's freezing out), but it's good to know it can be swapped easily.
In the past, I did try putting some heat shrink tubing over the metal trigger and it actually did work somewhat to make it less cold, but it wants to form creases due to the curve where you finger pad is which I didn't like. I'm still thinking some of the tool plastidip (http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip) painted onto the trigger may work pretty well. I may try doing that because if it doesn't work it is easy to remove with a razor blade.
Thanks for calling though and getting an answer.
Hey Bro, that is a Great News for us TRG owner who are worried about the Service/Warranty coverage of Beretta USA. Would you mind sharing the Name and Contact info of the Person that helped you with this matter with us in case of future needs??? Thanks so much!
Outstanding post, its great to see a review that delves this deep into the subject matter with absolute impartial bias either way. Bravo and cheers!
I also had a very good experience with Beretta USA recently. I lost the little floating nut in the stock that holds the adjustable comb in place on my TRG-22. I called Beretta USA customer service to order a new one but was told that it's part of the stock assembly and you can't buy that one piece seperately. Just when I was about to go off about having to spend hundreds of dollars to replace a 50 cent part, the rep told me that he had a broken stock in their shop that someone had sent in but was unrepairable. Seems the customer fell out of a jeep at 30 mph with the rifle slung across his back. Anyway, the rep said he would pull the piece I needed off the broken stock and mail it to me. Three days later it arrived along with the comb screw and slide that it fits into, all at no charge.
Needless to say, I was very happy with the service. It's also worth adding that I got through to customer service immediately with no hassle, holding or having to navigate an automated system. The rep I dealt with (don't remember his name) was a super nice guy and couldn't do enough to help me.
I have heard some nightmare stories about Berretta USA's service, but my first experience with them was great.
I'm a little late to the party, but this is a fantastic write up. I'm looking into an AI AE so this was helpful. Thanks!
Thanks for the write up. I have a mod LTR in a AICS 2.0 chassis and a green TRG-22 that I enjoy. I laughed when I saw your '1) Your customer service stinks'. Back when SHOT was held at the LVCC, I stopped for a gander at the Berretta USA's booth. While large and impressive, the snotty lady I dealt with left a sour taste in my mouth. Maybe I didn't dress appropriately or sport the proper credentials. lol
All,
Just got my left hand .308 AIAW having placed a deposit back in October 2012. I plan to shoot it in a few days. Here are my first impressions:
The Good:
1) Working the bolt tells me that I'm in a different league. It just feels like quality battle implement. Nothing on the rifle appears fragile.
2) The fit and finish of the plastic skins is excellent. It is the newer design with the deeper butt hook and rounded forend. I really like the feel. It looks like there is an option to adjust the size of the grip for larger/smaller hands - I need to verify this.
3) The two stage trigger is crisp - total pull weight through both stages at 3.5 lbs. Trigger finger ergonomics is an improvement over my Remington 700 placed in an AICS chassis.
4) The Bartlein barrel looks flawless. I left it at 26" and had it threaded for 5/8-24 to fit my 30-P1. Mile High did a very good job on the muzzle threading - comparable to what I've seen from Tornado Technologies.
5) Loading the double stack magazine is a pleasure - much better than the AICS mags.
6) Everything is machined - no cast or MIM parts that I can see.
Opportunities for improvement (I'm being picky)
1) The magazine release paddle could be a bit longer - it might be difficult to operate with gloves. If there was an option for a longer paddle I would purchase it.
2) Some of the grooves in the picatinny rail have some tool chatter (not just machining marks, but irregular tool chatter) that detract from the overall experience. This is simply the intersection of my OCD and the fact I spent over 6K on this rifle.
3) Marking on the barrel "AINA 308 WIN" is upside down. I know - it has nothing to do with function but one can do it properly with the same amount of effort. Or do the barrels index differently from rifle to rifle?
4) Instruction manual should cover adjusting the trigger pull weight. Edit: Did some more reading and it's best to leave the trigger alone - you are more likely to screw it up.
I'll report back once I've had a chance to shoot
Just got my left hand .308 AIAW having placed a deposit back in October 2012. I plan to shoot it in a few days. Here are my first impressions:
The Good:
1) Working the bolt tells me that I'm in a different league. It just feels like quality battle implement. Nothing on the rifle appears fragile.
2) The fit and finish of the plastic skins is excellent. It is the newer design with the deeper butt hook and rounded forend. I really like the feel. It looks like there is an option to adjust the size of the grip for larger/smaller hands - I need to verify this.
3) The two stage trigger is crisp - total pull weight through both stages at 3.5 lbs. Trigger finger ergonomics is an improvement over my Remington 700 placed in an AICS chassis.
4) The Bartlein barrel looks flawless. I left it at 26" and had it threaded for 5/8-24 to fit my 30-P1. Mile High did a very good job on the muzzle threading - comparable to what I've seen from Tornado Technologies.
5) Loading the double stack magazine is a pleasure - much better than the AICS mags.
6) Everything is machined - no cast or MIM parts that I can see.
Opportunities for improvement (I'm being picky)
1) The magazine release paddle could be a bit longer - it might be difficult to operate with gloves. If there was an option for a longer paddle I would purchase it.
2) Some of the grooves in the picatinny rail have some tool chatter (not just machining marks, but irregular tool chatter) that detract from the overall experience. This is simply the intersection of my OCD and the fact I spent over 6K on this rifle.
3) Marking on the barrel "AINA 308 WIN" is upside down. I know - it has nothing to do with function but one can do it properly with the same amount of effort. Or do the barrels index differently from rifle to rifle?
4) Instruction manual should cover adjusting the trigger pull weight. Edit: Did some more reading and it's best to leave the trigger alone - you are more likely to screw it up.
I'll report back once I've had a chance to shoot
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Barrels index differently from rifle to rifle. Barrels installed in the UK get fitted, and then marked later, while barrels installed in the US (and subsequent replacement barrels) are turned, finished, and marked as individual barrels (rather than specific to a certain rifle).
In the long run, eventually you wind up replacing your barrel, and whenever you do it's going to be another random chance as to where the markings wind up. Or you get a whole pile of barrels, and keep screwing them on until you find one that lines up closely. The barrel is still going to headspace properly regardless of where the markings are.
(emphasis added)
Yes, that is the best thing to do with the AI (and Sako) trigger. Leave them alone. People get drawn to messing with them like a moth to a flame and there is a good chance they'll screw it up. These are field tactical rifles, not benchrest guns. The triggers in them are excellent from the factory. I've never felt the need to adjust the AI or TRG triggers and they both routinely shoot 0.3MOA or better. They have kept their crisp consistent break after thousands of rounds. You couldn't pay me to go in there and start fiddling with them.
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This is perhaps true. I just have bad experience watching people adjusting triggers on otherwise perfectly fine rifles and making them worse. The Sako TRG in particular (old trigger module) is very sensitive to improper adjustment.
I would feel comfortable adjusting the AI trigger now simply because I've shot it thousands of times and know the rifle well. But after doing all that shooting I realize that I just couldn't make it shoot any better/more reliably. It shoots under 0.3MOA consistently. That's so good for a tactical rifle that I just don't think I could make it any better to the point where I could differentiate it between ammunition/operator variance vs. trigger pull weight being the problem.
The weight is negligible, I wouldn't say its lighter, maybe a touch heavier. It balances perfectly though.
I never was a big fan of the AI bipod or the spigot mount. I didn't mind the flop much but even when loaded it still canted too freely for me. My complaint was the ski feet, they slid on EVERYTHING it seemed. The only thing they didn't slide on for me was moist grass and dirt. They also aren't a good choice if you want to shoot off a vehicle, they will scratch the hell out of it. I tried the rubber foot covers but they got chewed up very easily for some reason. Personally I like the Harris over the AI bipod and the Atlas kicks its ass. The AX rail with a Atlas is perfect IMO.
The AX is better for sling shooting just because of the mount points alone. With the AW you are stuck with a hook on the side or a regular swivel on the bipod attachment. The hook on the side will cause side pressure when you're trying to shoot and the swivel on the bottom sucks for carrying the rifle as it won't lay flat. With the flush cup mounts in all the rails I have one on the side solely for carrying the rifle and I can quickly move it to the bottom so when I shoot with the sling the rifle doesn't try to tilt.
The fore grip is also in the perfect place, I wouldn't have it anywhere else. Also I believe AI may have addressed your issue of the mags hanging down but don't quote me on this. I have all 10 round mags so they hang but they offer a 5 from what I've seen and I don't see why they wouldn't be flush but I can't say for sure. I'm sure somebody can chime in.
The trigger shoe is entirely metal. If I paid this price for a rifle and the trigger shoe was plastic, quite frankly I would be a bit pissed and would send it back. Metal is stronger, plain and simple. I shoot my rifles in the cold plenty and have never had an issue with a metal trigger shoe. If my fingers are going to be cold they are going to already be cold from the weather, not the trigger. Either way I will take robustness over possible momentary discomfort, I'm shooting a rifle, not driving a cadillac.
The spigot and a few inches of forend space that would be taken up by a Harris bipod on most peoples rifle are no loss in my book. I too was hesitant and thinking I may not like the AX but after using it I love it.
I vote try it, you'll probably like it.
Tag for reference.
Excellent post! Too much information to process, had to read it twice.
With Mkiii now possessing many of the AW features how much is a person leaving on the table by going with an AE over the AW?
Excellent post! Too much information to process, had to read it twice.
With Mkiii now possessing many of the AW features how much is a person leaving on the table by going with an AE over the AW?
Thanks for the updates on the AX vs. AW. I'll just need to get behind one. Right now I have only tried an AX chassis version and still preferred the AW. I need to use the AX though more extensively and in non-prone shooting situations to see how it goes. If I had to modify the AI bipod it would be the feet. I'd adopt more of the ski/spike hybrid of the TRG. I also would modify it so it couldn't fold backwards as it offers me no advantages. The bipod itself though I still use simply because I like the rapid deployment, ruggedness, ability to pan/tilt on uneven surfaces, ability to attach/detach quickly and overall it works OK for me. I have not tried the Atlas though to compare.
My only other concern with the AX is it really raises the scope mounting up higher than the AW. I like having the scope as low as I can get it to keep my cheekweld near the bore axis. Again though, no experience with the AX to judge this. It's just what I've seen.
I think AI should try to knock 3-4lbs. off their rifles. If they could at least make it the weight of the bare TRG I think it would be a good improvement in terms of handling. I'm used to the weight now, but sometimes when it's slung and/or going off-hand I really wish it were lighter.
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The AX ('12 production) sitting in front of me appears to have a metal shoe. I'm guessing that it's aluminum, since a magnet won't stick to it.
Worst article ever because its about shit I cant have. Fuck!!
On a serious note, thank you for this. I'm actually saving up for one of the two and this article really helps define each rifle so I know I'll be making the right choice. You should get paid for this.
On a serious note, thank you for this. I'm actually saving up for one of the two and this article really helps define each rifle so I know I'll be making the right choice. You should get paid for this.
The AE doesn't have a bonded action and it doesn't have a built in recoil lug. Because of this you must remove the action from the chassis to swap barrels. Not a big deal as you aren't going to be swapping barrels in the field anyway and it only adds a couple more minutes of work. The AE also weighs a hair less than the AW because of the action.
The only practical advantage to the AW over the AE is the true double stack magazines as mentioned in the article. The AICS mags the AE uses can be clumbsy to load and require two hands. They also can't be topped off with the mag in the rifle but the AW can. Basically the AW mags load like a AR15 mag, you just pop the rounds in it.
Only you can decide if that one advantage is worth the extra $2000 for new rifle prices. I would pay the extra if you're talking used and you get an AW for $4000-4500 but not at $6K. It has been suggested though that AI may be coming out with an AE that uses AW mags though.
You really should try the Atlas, even if it's the Atlas with the AI spigot mount. It's 100% a better bipod than the AI. The legs won't fold back unless you want them to, they have better feet, and it cants and pans just like the AI bipod, it actually pans a bit further than the AI bipod. The legs also lock at 45 degrees forward or back which comes in handy sometimes. I've never needed to quickly detach a bipod on any rifle before, I've taken them off but I've never needed to do it quickly. The Atlas spigot mount will detach just as quickly and easily as your AI bipod though and the Atlas picatinny attachment with the ADM QD mount also releases just as fast. I bought mine with the ADM mount so I could move it to another rifle if I wanted without using tools.
The scope mount is up there but it isn't too bad. Most of the AI scope mounts are a bit high anyway but it doesn't really effect anything. Where my cheek piece is at to get a good cheek weld is still very comfortable, I don't have to crane my neck or anything like that.
As far as the weight, AI may be able to knock a little bit off of the AW and AX but it's not going to be 3-4lbs, there is no way. The chassis is what it is, there is really no place on it to save weight and not weaken the design. The weight saving areas would be the barrel and action. The action could be lightened up a bit but not much to justify it IMO. The barrel would be the easiest place to save weight, especially yours being 26". You could knock at least a pound off of that between shortening it and contouring it. It's going to come at a cost of balance, velocity, and the barrel heating faster. Personally I hunt with my precision rifles and carry them in the field all day and the weight has never bothered me even on my AE 24" with a S&B 5-25 and a 32oz suppressor that weighed 20lbs total.
Mine is alluminum without a doubt. I was worried about this because the ones in the pics I saw all looked plastic but I was happy to see when I got mine it was metal. I guess AI might have used both, not sure why they would do this though.
What he's referring to is what most call is closed type action. It has a ejection port just large enough without having the top of the action open like on most typical bolt rifles.
Perhaps its the finish that makes it feel like plastic. It certainly isn't steel, but you could be right that its aluminum. I'm going to take a closer look when I get home.
