Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

[robdes]

Hey guys- I need some help.
I have a Desert Tactical in 300 win mag. I have aprox 200 rds down the tube. I had been having a hard time removing copper from the barrel. When you looked down the barrel from the muzzle, every land was completely coated in copper. I couldn't remove it with Sweets, no matter how many passes I made. I shot it yesterday with decent (for me) results. Sub 3/4 MOA at 200 yards in somewhat windy conditions. (The gun has shot a .25 MOA group at 100yrds with the copper coated lands) Then last night I used gunslick foaming bore cleaner for the first time. It removed 99% of the visible copper. But at the range today the gun started spraying. Most groups were 4" at 200 yrds. Some were worse. I shot 60 rds thinking that things might tighten up. They didn't. the last 4 rd group was as bad as the first. Also, the POI seemed to shift a bit from the previous day, although with the lack of accuracy it was hard to tell.

Any ideas?

Thanks for you input.

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

Something doesn't sound quite right!! With as good as these guns are shooting that shouldn't happen. PM Later with your dilemma, he should be able to shed some light on the subject!!!

 

[ney1]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I would get some witches brew and shrub the barrel good, that is a very good copper remover.

With the big bores you must be more diligent on removing copper. For the 308 win I almost never put any copper remover in the bore but on the 338's I plug the end of the barrel and fill the barrel all the way up with sweets and let it sit overnight to get the copper out it do this every couple 200 rounds or so. After you get all the copper out then it may take a couple rounds to get it fouled and shooting groups again, not more than 6-8 though.

What ammo are you shooting?

 

[Hateca]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

Stop cleaning the rifle, carbon will kill accuracy long before copper ever will, if ever.

Check the scope and mounts. If you have a wondering zero this could be your issue and the cleaning causing the accuracy issue is just a coincidence.

And yes the scope could go to shit that quick.

 

[robdes]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I was shooting federal 190gr match. I also shot 8 rds of hornady 150gr. It wasn't grouping either, but the center of the "group" seemed to be at least 1.5" to the right of the federal. I did check the scope mount and rings. The scope is a new PRH 5-25. I sure hope it isn't having internal problems yet. Of course this could all be driver error.... but I don't think so.

 

[ney1]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

Try putting a bore sighter on the gun and check and see if the scope is tracking properly. If the internals are fine try letting someone else shoot the gun that you know is a crack shot.

 

[robdes]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

here are pics of the muzzle after my time at the range today. This is also how it looked before I used the foaming bore cleaner last night. I misstated today's round count. This fouling(?) happened with 48 rounds. Should this be happening?

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I would say change bullets, but you did that already. I had the sort of the same thing happen to me on my custom rifle and it was the bullet.

What range you shooting at? ASC?

 

[robdes]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

Did the copper build-up cause any accuracy probs for you?

I have been shooting at ASC and at Hot Wells.

 

[nikko]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I would use Montana Extreme Copper Killer to clean it up.Might i ask how you broke the barrel in?

 

[robdes]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I probably didn't break it in properly. I cleaned between every round for the first 20, but I didn't use copper solvent. I used regular Hoppes and no brushing.

The gunslick foaming bore cleaner worked well in removing the copper last night. It was copper free before I shot today. (it looked just like the pics before I cleaned it last night.)

thanks

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

For me it was the bullets, not the copper. But I did have a local smith look at it and the barrel was fine. I guess it was just one of those things. Barrel still shoots well to this day. Just not with AMAXs.

 

[robdes]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

what smith did you go to?

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

PM sent

 

[nikko]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I would say that you screwed the pooch on the barrel.

 

[robdes]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

What do you mean? Do you think that my break-in was inadequate?

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I talked to Ron at Benchmark Barrels. Here is what he had to say. First you should clean all the copper out of the bore. Shoot a series of 3-5 shot groups cleaning and removing copper in between groups. If the groups do not shrink up then you most likely have a rare problem. Sometimes you get a particular piece of steel that fouls really bad, it is not anybodys fault from lapping to gunsmithing its just luck of the draw. There are some bad pieces of steel that copper foul really bad. Benchmark has had very few but they replace them. I would suggest testing as he suggested and if you do not see improved results contact Krieger and have them replace it. A custom hand lapped barrel should not foul that bad and they should replace it.

 

[KYS]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

people get to worked up over barrel break in... its not that big a deal really. To this day I have not done the "proper" barrel break in with any of my rifles and they all are extremely accurate. A trained Army Sniper has taken my GAP 308 and made a nice group at 600 yards better then I ever could. Its something mechanical or your ammo was a bad batch. Regardless I would send the rifle back to maker and have them look it over. You could have a shit barrel and it just been the black sheep of the group of barrels they had sitting around at the time.

They will make it right.

 

[Turk]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was shooting federal 190gr match. I also shot 8 rds of hornady 150gr. It wasn't grouping either, but the center of the "group" seemed to be at least 1.5" to the right of the federal. I did check the scope mount and rings. The scope is a new PRH 5-25. I sure hope it isn't having internal problems yet. Of course this could all be driver error.... but I don't think so.



</div></div>
Somewhere in there may be your answer?

 

[nikko]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

Yes,that is what i mean.You should have used a brass or stainless steal brush during your break-in.

 

[Turk]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seadog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes,that is what i mean.You should have used a brass or stainless steal brush during your break-in. </div></div>
Never use stainless; unless your groups are too small!

 

[nikko]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I shoot 50bmg,bad copper fouler,i know the drill.Stainless is harmless on barrels and will not disolve with ammonia.

 

[KYS]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

stainless also scratches the inside of the barrel......

 

[Turk]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

http://www.riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire_maintenance.htm
Look under suggested equipment and solvents. Pretty much the same for any barrel manufacturer!

 

[nikko]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I should state that i shoot for a company that is producing a 50bmg round that is 26% lighter than current production.

 

[Turk]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seadog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should state that i shoot for a company that is producing a 50bmg round that is 26% lighter than current production. </div></div>
I should state that I don't!

 

[ChrisF]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS


Use some a lot of sweets , and if you still have problems .

use a 7mm wire brush , wrap with a patch & use either JBs paste or auotsol , depending on how aggressive you want to be .

however , make real sure you get all that stuff OUT before firing ,

Later Chris

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I agree with HateCA, you should also consider carbon fouling. If you have access to a borescope, use it to look for carbon near the chamber end, and have a good look at the lands before and after cleaning out the copper.

Break-in is useful if you have a poorly machined barrel that needs lapping to smooth the lands. Excessive roughness grinds copper from the bullet jacket, so a well lapped match barrel will not need breaking in and will retain much less copper.

Back to the carbon "doughnut": I had that problem a few years ago and used JB compound to cure it. That's my recommendation; using JB also laps your lands, removing copper at the same time.

PS I just read that you were using a PRH scope and said it was "new." There were a small number of the same scopes that were defective and wouldn't hold zero. Yours may be one of that bunch, so try another scope. Nevertheless, you have a hell of a lot of copper to deal with.

 

[younggun22]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seadog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should state that i shoot for a company that is producing a 50bmg round that is 26% lighter than current production. </div></div>

well i shoot for a company that is producing a 50bmg round that is 26% heavier than current production

... I have no new ideas about your rifle but im gonna go with a bad piece of steel

 

[ney1]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

If a rifle shoots 400 rounds with 1/2 moa accuracy then something had to have changed dramatically for it to all of a sudden start shooting 4 MOA accuracy, optics/mounts is what I would check first, crown damage second, and ammo third.

I have fired many thousands of magnum rounds and never has excessive fouling hurt the accuracy that significantly, EVER.

 

[HunterBear71]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

The barrel just may be a red herring. I would look closely at mounts and scope.

 

[gliechty]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I would not even consider stripping that barrel with groups like that. Your loss of accuracy most likely will be restored once the copper builds back up. As was stated earlier, not all steels in barrels are the same.
Your particular barrel appears to be rough. The copper deposits are filling the voids, and effectivly smoothing the barrel. When you stripped the barrel with solvents, you introduced a rough surface for the bullets. You are getting inconsistant results because copper is building its self back up. Once it gets back to the point of not building more copper, the accuracy will probably come back.

It will void the barrel warranty, but i would shoot some TUBB final finish through it. Make sure to have all the copper out before you shoot these, or they will just remove the copper, and not do thier thing on the barrel.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

Check the crown and the optic as was stated, tracking, loose screws etc. If all those are good get a different barrel. Try putting the scope on a different rifle that is a known performer, if you have one, and test it. Some Premiers on rare occasions have failed within the first 50rnds of use.

That seems like excessive fouling to me. I have yet to see a barrel foul that bad after 48rnds if it was completely cleaned out. Barrel break in would not affect that. I usually clean my rifles after i notice accuracy begin to drop off. Usually 150-200rnds then clean and shoot about 10rnds and its right back to it.

If all other mechanical problems have been addressed then the only likely conclusion will be bad steel which Krieger should replace.

Good Luck

 

[USMCj]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

Thats a lot of copper! Dont these things come with Krieger barrels? Havent seen one copper up tht bad.

 

[ranger1183]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

it's either an optical illusion or those lands and the copper fouling on them, don't look even at all.

 

[gliechty]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

In his post, he had great accuracy until he cleaned the rifle. People are very scared about the appearance of copper. They should be more concerned with how the rifle shoots. It shot great until the copper got to him!

 

[ratton]

Re: Accuracy problems after cleaning- DTA SRS

I use Barnes CR-10 to get copper out. It works very well for me.

 

[steve123]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

dtac,

You may know these tips but I'll put em out anyways.

Best to use a bore guide so the rifling at the throat doesn't get worn unevenly.Especially with stainless steel rods.

Sometimes a carbon ring forms right in front of the bore guide right past the throat affecting accuracy but JB paste will take care of this.

It's advisable not to drag a bore brush back into the crown of the muzzle...debatable?I don't even drag patches back through.

It's advisable not to completely clean all the copper out.I use those nickel coated jags instead of bronze so I can monitor when to stop cleaning the copper out.

That TM solution works great on carbon removal.

Did you let your barrel cool some between groups?

I'm unfamiliar with SRS but was your barrel set all the way in and properly torqued?If you have a shoulder bump gauge you can measure your brass for shoulder expansion to compare to the brass that shot well previously to confirm.

Steve

 

[JamieD]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

I can help. It's the foaming bore cleaner. Shoot it some more - get 20 -30 rounds down the barrel. I have had similer problems with a 22-250. It was always a shooter - figured I would try the foaming bore cleaner to get it really clean (this was a couple years ago - I don't use it anymore). Went to a shoot (16 round groundhog shoot) and the guns group doubled or tripled. Cleaned it agian - same terrible results. Than a friend who had similer problems said that in his case he believed it was getting too clean, it gets down into every crack, scratch and void on a microscopic level. It then needs to be shot for all these imperfections to be filled back in to shoot again.

I'm not going to say he was right or his reasoning was right, but after about 30 rounds the accuracy came back. Haven't used it since and on my custom barrels, I might not clean them for 200 to 300 rounds now. It's amazing what a borescope shows, it has changed my cleaning regiments forever.

Good luck and I hope it helps,
JamieD


PS- If the accuracy comes back, shoot it and enjoy it. If it does not find someone with a borescope and have them look in the barrel and see if they can find the problem.

 

[nikko]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

Opinions are like, you know.To clear the air i would like to say that in my opinion, it's good practice to treat all new barrels as if they were never lapped.Some say,no stainless.some say tubbs. etc.etc.I say,clean from breach to crown.Don't let the carbon or the copper build.Shooting 50 all the time makes you understand copper or bronze fouling.Ammonia oil's work best,but don't use a brass or bronze brush,unless you want to have no brush at all.To say that all barrel mgf's say no stainless steel is flat out bs.Like i said everyone has there opinion.I might add that i am new to this site and need to get used to culling truth from fiction.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

There is a sentiment on SH that breaking in a good barrel does not make it clean easier, shoot better or last longer. That view exists because many of the rifles used by member are high quality, lapped barrels that are ready to shoot. It's probably not true of factory rifle barrels than could benefit from treating them as though they were never lapped - my Remington LTR comes to mind.

The Desert Tactical barrel should fall in the high quality, lapped barrel category. Nevertheless, there is something definitely wrong with it - just look at copper in the images. If it were mine, I would work with Desert Tactical to replace it and let them figure out what went wrong - dtac should get his money's worth and not spend his time cleaning an expensive barrel every 50 rounds.

There must be someone from DT who reads these posts!

 

[nikko]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

100 % agreed.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">dtac should get his money's worth and not spend his time cleaning an expensive barrel every 50 rounds.</div></div>

I too agree 100%. Im sure Krieger has had this experience before. Benchmark has had to scrap a whole Lot of steel once because it was bad steel. I dont think it is DTA's fault it would not show up in test firing at DTA because he doubtfully puts 50rnds thru the rifle to test it. Its unfortunate but should be dealt with. They can shoot good until they foul out, it happens. I had a factory barrel on a rifle once that would go to crap after 40rnds, a bag of patches and 10 foulers later it was back to shooting tiny groups until it hit the magical 40 rounds then i had to rinse and repeat. You should not have to do this on a cut rifled hand lapped barrel!

 

[USMCj]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

With the amount of copper in that barrel after only 50 or so rounds, I would hazard a guess that Krieger forgot to lap it. A hand lapped barrel should not copper that much, especially at the muzzle.

 

[Dogtown]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There must be someone from DT who reads these posts!</div></div>

Um...SR90 has been writing in this thread

 

[110len]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

One other thing. Crown damage from cleaning has been mentioned but there is another possibility. Firearms with muzzle brakes can develop a false crown. Usually, this a concentric buildup of fouling. Sometimes, as a result of cleaning or firing the weapon, a piece can chip off creating an uneven opening and result in a sudden loss of accuracy. 200 rounds on a .300WM may be enough to have created a false crown sizeable enough so that if a piece ripped out the accuracy would deteriorate suddenly. Take a look - easy enough to fix.
Len

 

[Fredo]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

Clean it up and shoot 220's in it.

No problems with copper like that with hot 338LM 250, 300gr loads Scenars and SMK's. The 270 LRBT's didn't even foul like that.

 

[robdes]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics


Man, what a great site. Thanks to everyone for helping me figure out what to do.
I have been out of town on a computer free (and unfortunately gun free) trip. I should be able to make some time this week to deal with this. I'll let you know how I resolve the issue.

 

[Turk]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

If it is BS; kindly show us which high quality barrel manufacturer suggests using a stainless brush?

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: Accuracy probs- DTA SRS- Updated w/ pics

I use a plastic brush. Never had a problem getting the copper out of the custom barrels with it and it holds up great to sweets copper solvent.