Maybe I'll do like most people and put a sticker over itThat sucks
"Oh what's that you say?...that's what's called a "sighter", I shoot 4 shot groups and a sighter for elevation and windage..."
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Actual Accuracy of 22lr Premium Rifles
- Thread starter MAJOR2257
- Start date
"Oh what's that you say?...that's what's called a "sighter", I shoot 4 shot groups and a sighter for elevation and windage..."
Maybe I'll do like most people and put a sticker over it
"Oh what's that you say?...that's what's called a "sighter", I shoot 4 shot groups and a sighter for elevation and windage..."
Cowpokey,
I did say " guys shooting Vudoo's" I did beat the guy's. Sorry if I did not say it correctly. Oh I did.
I guess I should have said 1" aggs. in very good conditions, not in all conditions.
A friends of mine new Vudoo 360 is running 1" aggs. at 200yds. he has shot many 0.75" and 1" 5 shot groups. I witnessed the groups in 0.5 mils of wind. Best shooting rimfire I have seen. I guess a Vudoo can do it.
I did say " guys shooting Vudoo's" I did beat the guy's. Sorry if I did not say it correctly. Oh I did.
I guess I should have said 1" aggs. in very good conditions, not in all conditions.
A friends of mine new Vudoo 360 is running 1" aggs. at 200yds. he has shot many 0.75" and 1" 5 shot groups. I witnessed the groups in 0.5 mils of wind. Best shooting rimfire I have seen. I guess a Vudoo can do it.
Your ego is still getting in the way of reality. Post up a video of 6 five shot groups in a row @ 200 yards that are all 1/2 MOA...we don't want to see a picture of you sitting on a bench with a target at 200, then close up pictures of a target with impact shots. Put a video camera on you and another one on the target, sync'd up so everything is simultaneous. I won't hold my breath.
Eley Match on all 4 corners. Center-X in the middle, though that one I kind of rushed because they were calling cease fire. I'm very happy with keeping groups at around 3" for 200yds.
Best I've ever done at 200 yards with a 10 shot group (I don't buy 5 shot groups) is with Eley Match, and the other groups that day were more at the 2.5". I guess I could cherry pick 5 shot clumps in the 10 shot groups that are about 1"
Best I've ever done at 200 yards with a 10 shot group (I don't buy 5 shot groups) is with Eley Match, and the other groups that day were more at the 2.5". I guess I could cherry pick 5 shot clumps in the 10 shot groups that are about 1"
You have nothing to prove, because you have no proof. Say what you mean Dick, very little censorship on The Hide...you got called out, and now you're backing away. That's fine. There are a hell of a lot of great shooters on this forum, maybe you're one of them, but I'd bet dollars to donuts there are dozens of them in this section that you wouldn't hold a candle to.
Zeroing brand new rimx with sk standard+ at 50 yards. 5 shots in each corner. The fuck ups were mostly me. The group on the cardboard with the flyer was my daughter who was 8 at the time. Now that I have shot the gun more, the tight groups are pretty indicative of what the gun will do at 50 yds with a good lot. A bad lot of sk standard will be .5-.75" at 50 yds and 1-1.5" at 100 yds and 4-5" at 200 yards. I have won some steel matches with the bad lots, but it is a hell of a lot easier to win with the good lots.
I almost never shoot groups unless checking a new lot of ammo. I zero at 25 yds now to get rid of most opportunity for wind drift affecting the zero. Of course the groups are 1 hole from there. We do have a 1 inch target hanging at 100 yards and the gun will clean the target for 10 shots from prone provided we have a good lot of ammo. It now has around 40k rounds through it.
Groups tend to be pretty good on fresh painted steel until around 170 yards. Around 1.5-1.75 inches when I have measured.
At 200 yards things tend to fall apart and groups are more in the 2.5-3.5" area.
Unless someone has figured out the secret to getting accuracy at long range (fast twist???) I would be very surprised to see consistent 1" groups at 200 yards. I have seen people come close at 100 but have yet to see someone print a sub 1/2" 10 shot group multiple times at 100 yards.
If tech would catch up then I think it is possible. However, the fun part of rimfire is the cost and that I don't have to load ammo or clean much. If it is going to cost >$0.50/rd then I will just shoot 223. If we were talking .223 I would easily believe guys claims of 1" @ 200 yds.
I almost never shoot groups unless checking a new lot of ammo. I zero at 25 yds now to get rid of most opportunity for wind drift affecting the zero. Of course the groups are 1 hole from there. We do have a 1 inch target hanging at 100 yards and the gun will clean the target for 10 shots from prone provided we have a good lot of ammo. It now has around 40k rounds through it.
Groups tend to be pretty good on fresh painted steel until around 170 yards. Around 1.5-1.75 inches when I have measured.
At 200 yards things tend to fall apart and groups are more in the 2.5-3.5" area.
Unless someone has figured out the secret to getting accuracy at long range (fast twist???) I would be very surprised to see consistent 1" groups at 200 yards. I have seen people come close at 100 but have yet to see someone print a sub 1/2" 10 shot group multiple times at 100 yards.
If tech would catch up then I think it is possible. However, the fun part of rimfire is the cost and that I don't have to load ammo or clean much. If it is going to cost >$0.50/rd then I will just shoot 223. If we were talking .223 I would easily believe guys claims of 1" @ 200 yds.
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I've shot quite few sub MOA 10 round groups at 100 yards with my Vudoo, Anschutz 1712, and Ruger 10/22T, but that is the exception not the norm. I consider myself a pretty good shooter, there are many folks better than I am. @MarkCZ doing 1/2 MOA consistently at 200 yards? I'd have a better chance of seeing Elvis riding a unicorn over a rainbow or winning the lottery jackpot twice in one week.
Edit add: I doubt very seriously his buddy does it with a Vudoo either.
Edit add: I doubt very seriously his buddy does it with a Vudoo either.
Do you have video proof of your sub moa 10rd 100yds? We have to have that now. Me and Elvis are going to buy some lottery ticket, you want some.
Nope, I don't video my range time; but I'm also not the one claiming 1/2 MOA @ 200 yards. Sub MOA @ 100 is realistic, lots of people can do it.
I've done a .6" 10 shot group at 100m in a wind tunnel with lot tested Lapua ammo, once.
Mike N of Thomas airguns has done .6-7 MOA for a number of groups at 200Y before with his single shot dedicated lead slug pcp air rifle.
The major reason why is the ES is around """10 fps"""!!!!
Another reason is the wind was calm-ish but Wind flags were also used to help.
These are almost $4000 custom BR air rifles with high end 22rf BR barrels he preps himself.
Shot on a perfectly stable BR table.
Gun sitting on a perfectly stable Randolph one piece rest with custom improvements he cnc machined..
The lead slugs he used are custom swaged one at a time 38gr/22 cal/.13BC/850-ish fps, so each one is identical to the next, and sized to fit the barrel perfectly. One has to literally push them into the chamber with force via the adjustable bullet depth seater.
Gun and velocity tuned to the best of his ability.
On top of that he's the top ranked unlimited N50 BR airgun shooter in the USA.
I'm not saying this happens all the time either because he has only tried 200Y a few times. Take it for what its worth. Info only.
I'm positive if the same test was done by Mike in a 200Y tunnel the precision can still be improved upon marginally because wind affects the vertical aspect especially with low BC projectiles.
Too put it into perspective properly - this doesn't happen with factory match grade 22rf ammo "consistently" if for no other reason than the ammo's ES considering its commonly 30-40 fps.
His Gen 2 slug rifle.
His Gen 3 slug rifle.
200Y groups and I should also mention he had to aim at the top of an object above the target stand because he ran out of elevation.
The major reason why is the ES is around """10 fps"""!!!!
Another reason is the wind was calm-ish but Wind flags were also used to help.
These are almost $4000 custom BR air rifles with high end 22rf BR barrels he preps himself.
Shot on a perfectly stable BR table.
Gun sitting on a perfectly stable Randolph one piece rest with custom improvements he cnc machined..
The lead slugs he used are custom swaged one at a time 38gr/22 cal/.13BC/850-ish fps, so each one is identical to the next, and sized to fit the barrel perfectly. One has to literally push them into the chamber with force via the adjustable bullet depth seater.
Gun and velocity tuned to the best of his ability.
On top of that he's the top ranked unlimited N50 BR airgun shooter in the USA.
I'm not saying this happens all the time either because he has only tried 200Y a few times. Take it for what its worth. Info only.
I'm positive if the same test was done by Mike in a 200Y tunnel the precision can still be improved upon marginally because wind affects the vertical aspect especially with low BC projectiles.
Too put it into perspective properly - this doesn't happen with factory match grade 22rf ammo "consistently" if for no other reason than the ammo's ES considering its commonly 30-40 fps.
His Gen 2 slug rifle.
His Gen 3 slug rifle.
200Y groups and I should also mention he had to aim at the top of an object above the target stand because he ran out of elevation.
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High end PCP air rifles have more consistent MV than even the best .22lr ammo.
Mikes two tightest "25/yes twenty five/" shots in a row at 50Y!
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I told @jbell he needed a new target, Jesse, try this one....
Center dot is 0.10 inch diameter
Outer edge of heavy ring is 0.30 inch diameter
Next is 0.52 inch diameter (1 moa at 50 yards)
Outer ring is 1.04 inch diameter (1 moa at 100 yards)
3 sighter bulls and 25 shots for record
Can you hit what you aim at?
Click on popout link below to download PDF
Download, open, print 8.5x11, actual size, 100%
10 inch reference check at left edge of border
Center dot is 0.10 inch diameter
Outer edge of heavy ring is 0.30 inch diameter
Next is 0.52 inch diameter (1 moa at 50 yards)
Outer ring is 1.04 inch diameter (1 moa at 100 yards)
3 sighter bulls and 25 shots for record
Can you hit what you aim at?
Click on popout link below to download PDF
Download, open, print 8.5x11, actual size, 100%
10 inch reference check at left edge of border
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Thats pretty good. here is mine but only 20-shots. here is something most don't do try shooting groups with different lots. 5 10-shot groups shot with 5 different lots.
Lee
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In my experience, every manufacturer out there kicks a dog out the door occasionally, some more so than others.
I dreamed of owning a Kimber as a teen. Well, I’ve been through a few and none met my accuracy standards. I had a need for an accurate Ruger 77/22, owned 2 and swore you couldn’t chase me down to give me another. You guessed it, I found an accurate one by accident. Anschutz 54’s, Coopers 36 & 57s, Steyrs, Walthers, etc. all are desirable not solely because there are pretty examples, but because they hit where you aim. Kleinguenther K22, a rifle that doesn’t have a high “book” value, is virtually unattainable due to their desirability based on that accuracy reputation alone.
Winchester 52s, Remington 37 & 40X, classic arms with well earned reputations for accuracy. Bleiker, Feinwerkbau, Diana, Schultz & Larsen, Weirauch, and so many others have a high cost of admission, because they perform when your eye is behind the sights.
Now look at the “every man’s” rifles, the Marlin 60s, Ruger 10/22s, Savage Mks, etc…
If the premium builders can kick out a dog, so the humble manufacturers can ship out a rare jewel on occasion. How often? Well some more often than not (CZ). Others, due to reliability and design, can foster a huge following in aftermarket support, yet still sell a mediocre base product….
I dreamed of owning a Kimber as a teen. Well, I’ve been through a few and none met my accuracy standards. I had a need for an accurate Ruger 77/22, owned 2 and swore you couldn’t chase me down to give me another. You guessed it, I found an accurate one by accident. Anschutz 54’s, Coopers 36 & 57s, Steyrs, Walthers, etc. all are desirable not solely because there are pretty examples, but because they hit where you aim. Kleinguenther K22, a rifle that doesn’t have a high “book” value, is virtually unattainable due to their desirability based on that accuracy reputation alone.
Winchester 52s, Remington 37 & 40X, classic arms with well earned reputations for accuracy. Bleiker, Feinwerkbau, Diana, Schultz & Larsen, Weirauch, and so many others have a high cost of admission, because they perform when your eye is behind the sights.
Now look at the “every man’s” rifles, the Marlin 60s, Ruger 10/22s, Savage Mks, etc…
If the premium builders can kick out a dog, so the humble manufacturers can ship out a rare jewel on occasion. How often? Well some more often than not (CZ). Others, due to reliability and design, can foster a huge following in aftermarket support, yet still sell a mediocre base product….
Most internet groups are not 10-20+ shots for a reason. People talk a lot of shit. Show us 3 ten shot groups at 100. It’s is rare that the average is below 1”, regardless of ammo or rifle. Or just one 30 shot group at 100. Bench rest competitors know this. If the .5 MOA all day clowns beat the BR folks at a match, that means something. Until then, it’s just public masterbation.
The group gestapo has arrived.
Motto “ If I can’t do it you can’t either.”
Can you find me one post on SH that anyone claims “all day long”? In 15 years I do not recall a single one. I do recall hundreds like yours claiming someone claimed all day long.
If you don’t care for someone’s target ignore it.
I walked out my back door onto the patio this morning. Sat at table and shot a crow at 206 yards. One shot. Winchester 52 and Eley Tenex EPS. Neither I nor the crow are concerned if I can do it 50 times in a row. I don’t recall the last one I missed inside 200 yards with that rifle.
This is my purpose for owning an accurate rifle.
To me that is rimfire accuracy. You may have another definition. All good.
This is my purpose for owning an accurate rifle.
To me that is rimfire accuracy. You may have another definition. All good.
Unless your buying a certain lot from a certain production line run by the specific employee (yes the crazy BR guys do that in England)
For a good shooting rifle (not a random rest BR gun) with a good lot of Ammo not cherry picking groups
Consistently Attainable:
Dime at 50
Nickel at 100
Size of a closed fist at 200
“Sneaker” box at 300
That’s really about as good as Ammo is over a entire lot# with some deviations on both sides
For a good shooting rifle (not a random rest BR gun) with a good lot of Ammo not cherry picking groups
Consistently Attainable:
Dime at 50
Nickel at 100
Size of a closed fist at 200
“Sneaker” box at 300
That’s really about as good as Ammo is over a entire lot# with some deviations on both sides
This is very near exactly what I have found. Peak accuracy. Beyond this it’s just random events.
I think my best set up will do a bit better at 50. 5/8” at 100 is tough to do consistently. At 200 anything under 4” is good. Some 5-10 shot groups will be better but hard to sustain anything under 4” for me over long haul.
I think my best set up will do a bit better at 50. 5/8” at 100 is tough to do consistently. At 200 anything under 4” is good. Some 5-10 shot groups will be better but hard to sustain anything under 4” for me over long haul.
I just got home from the range and was going to post a few targets on the William Buck Memorial when I saw this. I happened to be testing some ammo at 100 today, which I normally do with 10 round groups. I shot a few mags of Eley Match at 100 after testing it at 50, it didn't do so great so I switched back over to SK Standard Plus which normally shoots good out of this rifle to make sure I wasn't shooting like ass. It took 10-13 rounds to settle in then I shot a 10 round group (bottom right target). It was good so I dialed down a little and shot 2 more 10 round groups, just because I wanted to see what I could do today.
This is about what I expect out of an accurate rifle (30 consecutive rounds @ 0.574 MOA) with me shooting it prone off of a CAL and Precision Underground rear bag:
This would be damn impressive, but I don't play around any with the BR stuff. I am usually the point of failure with my precision rifle system.
Obtaining quality rimfire cartridges is an exercise in frustration.
I have to position a chronograph out front in order to determine what was me
and what was velocity caused spread, every trip to the range.
Purchases of Eley, RWS, Lapua, SK and Fiocchi Italia all require that chronograph
in order to diagnose the cause of vertical spread.
I can hear and feel the energy differences, shot to shot,
but only the chronograph provides quantifiable data of the differences.
I have to position a chronograph out front in order to determine what was me
and what was velocity caused spread, every trip to the range.
Purchases of Eley, RWS, Lapua, SK and Fiocchi Italia all require that chronograph
in order to diagnose the cause of vertical spread.
I can hear and feel the energy differences, shot to shot,
but only the chronograph provides quantifiable data of the differences.
I totally agree! Frustrating today when I get to the range and the battery pack for my Labradar was at 10% and within 10 rounds it was dead from the cold. Idiot tax I guess…
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Bragging about a rifle shooting random lots of Center-x is like saying you had good lap times in a random GT3.
Even random lots of Center-x are still better way than most other ammo.
I got news for you all my currents lot are random bought I haven't been to the test center in 4 years now. I also shoot Lapua PK
my best non-sanctioned target shot with a random lot of Lapua PK my best sanctioned ARA shot with a random lot of CX. this is from two different rifles. both Anschutz match 54's
Lee
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I remember when Center X could be had for about $10 a box and it was absolutely pointless to lot test because it was so good. That doesn’t seem to be the case as of the last 2ish years. Does anyone remember the Wolf Match Gold from the late 90’s-early 2000’s? It was damn good!
That’s good stuff there. Had to look up the size of a nickel. Guessing that group is 1 1/8”-1 1/4” Center to Center?
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It's almost like ammo makers can't figure out how to increase production. I mean they say there's no demand to justify it.
Come up with new ammo....no problem. Keep the ammo they already make on the shelf.....sorry.
Come up with new ammo....no problem. Keep the ammo they already make on the shelf.....sorry.
I shoot F class (FTR) LR. I change OCW, seating depth etc. Since you can't do that with a .22, I try every ammo possible and check overall length and rim thickness.
Sorting ammo is good but sorting crap is crap. As many here have found, at 50-300 yards I can see a HUGE difference between good and bad in "my rifle". And that applies to mfg's of "good ammo".
Some of the "best brands" shot like crap out of my rifle and some of the same mfg shot fantastic.
Every barrel is different and you need to see what shoots best in yours.
Sorting ammo is good but sorting crap is crap. As many here have found, at 50-300 yards I can see a HUGE difference between good and bad in "my rifle". And that applies to mfg's of "good ammo".
Some of the "best brands" shot like crap out of my rifle and some of the same mfg shot fantastic.
Every barrel is different and you need to see what shoots best in yours.
Are you shooting a factory barrel? I shoot benchmarks all have the Nevius chamber. I have been doing this since late 2015. IMO the more engraving the harder it is to find lots.
Lee
I was lucky I bought a bunch of bricks right before the price went up.
Got a good lot from target sports and called to see if they had any more.
They found me several bricks over 2-3 shipments
Really good job helping me out
I wish my rifles would make up their minds.
A year ago they preferred RWS R50 SC.
Then they decided the next brick of the R50 wasn't what they wanted.
So I fed them some SK Biathlon...which they liked...a lot.
But the following brick must have been undesirable in some way.
So I offered them some Eley SemiAuto Benchrest Precision.
That worked out well, until I had to purchase my next brick.
Again they changed their minds and so I bought them some Fiocchi 320 Exacta.
They were happy again, until they weren't.
It's a shame I can't find a brand they like.
Bunch of fickle minded firearms.
Apparently brand means nothing to them.
Not Eley, not Lapua, not RWS, not even Fiocchi satisfies them.
They just aren't interested in the labels, or the advertising campaigns.
All they want is uniformly well made cartridges with tight muzzle velocities.
It's a shame the factory assembly lines aren't as consistent as my rifles would like.
A year ago they preferred RWS R50 SC.
Then they decided the next brick of the R50 wasn't what they wanted.
So I fed them some SK Biathlon...which they liked...a lot.
But the following brick must have been undesirable in some way.
So I offered them some Eley SemiAuto Benchrest Precision.
That worked out well, until I had to purchase my next brick.
Again they changed their minds and so I bought them some Fiocchi 320 Exacta.
They were happy again, until they weren't.
It's a shame I can't find a brand they like.
Bunch of fickle minded firearms.
Apparently brand means nothing to them.
Not Eley, not Lapua, not RWS, not even Fiocchi satisfies them.
They just aren't interested in the labels, or the advertising campaigns.
All they want is uniformly well made cartridges with tight muzzle velocities.
It's a shame the factory assembly lines aren't as consistent as my rifles would like.
I have a lot of wolf that shoots insane 8-10 but throws those 2 ..1” out
If those flyers were gone it would be the most accurate 22 Ammo I’ve ever shot and maybe seen in person
I think it’s wolf extra match , but they have so many names
The wolf Match Gold had a different manufacturing location printed on the box. I do not know who was actually making it but damn it was good stuff.
That's what I thought. I remember seeing Made in Germany on the box, but I can't remember where the Match Extra and Match Target (I think that was the low grade) was made.
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