My fourth cousin twice removed operated operationally during Grenada and I just don't buy that he'd be on this forum either. Checkmate.
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Advanced Sniper Rifle Solicitation
- Thread starter DavidK
- Start date
Hi,
@FatBoy
The U.S. Small Business Administration counts companies with as much as $35.5 million in sales and up to 1,500 employees as "small businesses" in regards to Government contracts.
Outside government, companies with less than $7 million in sales and fewer than five hundred employees are widely considered small businesses.
So if you run the numbers from the latest BATFE manufacturers report it would put Barrett over the revenue for "Small Business Govt Contracts".....unless as I mentioned previously their sales just tanked in 2018 because those manufactured numbers are not available yet since they do not get turned in to the BATFE until April 2019.
Sincerely,
Theis
@FatBoy
The U.S. Small Business Administration counts companies with as much as $35.5 million in sales and up to 1,500 employees as "small businesses" in regards to Government contracts.
Outside government, companies with less than $7 million in sales and fewer than five hundred employees are widely considered small businesses.
So if you run the numbers from the latest BATFE manufacturers report it would put Barrett over the revenue for "Small Business Govt Contracts".....unless as I mentioned previously their sales just tanked in 2018 because those manufactured numbers are not available yet since they do not get turned in to the BATFE until April 2019.
Sincerely,
Theis
Ok great, I'm not your Dad and nether are you.
This is exactly why I feel the need to pipe up when dudes start discussing our community and the things going on within it. A lot of guys seem to have a misconception about who we are. Guys should realize that SF dudes are made up of all sorts of different personalities and from all different walks of life. I've meet dudes that were doctors, rocket scientist, lawyers, philosophy professors, etc. before becoming Green Berets...and some of us were redneck fisherman, loggers, construction workers, with nothing in trems of education and prior experience other than a high school degree and a shitty job. Some of us are White, Black and every color in between. Some of us are funny, some are stoic. Some of us are the nicest person you'll ever meet and some of us are fucking dicks...and yes some of us are even dorks.
I've been bumming around the hide for a long time, yes my eyes roll into the back of my head concerning quite a few of the conversations I see unfolding but at heart I got started here because I'm a gun guy. As much as I might cringe, I also enjoy the Hide particulaly because if you keep your mouth shut long enough you can actually learn some stuff and meet some interesting people.
Hmmm.....as I understand one of the criteria from a tax stand point...once you hit 50 employees you are no longer considered a small business.
Back to ASR.....some other info....and I don't believe the barrel spec's are top secret as it was released with the submission information.
All barrels/calibers are suppose to have 5R style rifling. That's the called out spec.
.338 cal. barrels are suppose to have 1-9.5 twist. The reason for the 2.5moa requirement for the .338 as I understand it is because it's primary purpose is to carry a payload. I don't believe it's intended purpose is for soft targets.
All .30cal. barrels for the .308win and .300 Norma are spec'd at 1-8 twist.
All bore and groove tolerances are size +.0004" for tolerance. No exceptions! One maker asked Big Army to loosen up the tolerances on the bore and groove sizes. They we're told no. Even at Saami min. tolerances of size plus +.0005" tolerance that maker said they we're looking at a 20% scrap rate on the barrels.
All guns submitted by a manufacturer....they we're given a print for the chamber reamer spec. for all three calibers.
One ammo maker was given the order to make and supply the ammo for testing. This way each maker wasn't bringing they're own proprietary ammo or make of ammo etc....
Some extra thought was put into ASR to take some of the variables/problems out of the previous go arounds with PSR and PSR2. Is it a perfect world. Probably not but extra steps where taken and I'll tip my hat to them for that.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Back to ASR.....some other info....and I don't believe the barrel spec's are top secret as it was released with the submission information.
All barrels/calibers are suppose to have 5R style rifling. That's the called out spec.
.338 cal. barrels are suppose to have 1-9.5 twist. The reason for the 2.5moa requirement for the .338 as I understand it is because it's primary purpose is to carry a payload. I don't believe it's intended purpose is for soft targets.
All .30cal. barrels for the .308win and .300 Norma are spec'd at 1-8 twist.
All bore and groove tolerances are size +.0004" for tolerance. No exceptions! One maker asked Big Army to loosen up the tolerances on the bore and groove sizes. They we're told no. Even at Saami min. tolerances of size plus +.0005" tolerance that maker said they we're looking at a 20% scrap rate on the barrels.
All guns submitted by a manufacturer....they we're given a print for the chamber reamer spec. for all three calibers.
One ammo maker was given the order to make and supply the ammo for testing. This way each maker wasn't bringing they're own proprietary ammo or make of ammo etc....
Some extra thought was put into ASR to take some of the variables/problems out of the previous go arounds with PSR and PSR2. Is it a perfect world. Probably not but extra steps where taken and I'll tip my hat to them for that.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Hi Frank,
That is a very specific tax break clause in regards to what companies are required to offer in regards to medical insurance and such under the affordable health care act. It really has nothing to do with what and how the Small Business Administration handles/classifies companies in general, much less classification in regards to Gov't contracts
Sincerely,
Theis
Interesting that they wanted a 1:8 twist for the .308 as well as for the .300 norma, as most of the barrels you see around are in the 1:10 range for the .308 and 1:9 for the .300 Norma.
It would be interesting to try out some barrels built to that spec and tolerance hold on an AI and see how they like some of the longer distance solids.
Warning uneducated speculation incoming, just trying to learn as well have you sell me on why I need to buy the new rifle that is chosen by Army (as long as I can get it in .308) to live out my operator fantasies....
Why is the M110 considered anything other than the spotters weapon for when something goes bad and instead of service rifle expectations of 4MOA you will get something closer to 2 MOA with a bit more power?
Thats my understanding of the M110, a backup for when something capable has an issue or targets of opportunity appear. .308 ARs dont even satisfy me and I shoot them much more leisurely than you need to.
As a fan of heavily reworked and massaged Remingtons I think it sucks the M2010 doesn't work but my enmity is directed at Remington for putting out a shitty product. I question why they even sell me something that I have to pay more to get to work right, shame on me. Really Remington you are going to screw this up for want of a $300 barrel?
When I buy Remington's they tend to be receivers from the 1960's. Even with their faults off the shelf they satisfy their true market - guys that zero in October and kill a deer first week in November, and they will still shoot MOA pretty regularly.
"Outgunned" is again a question of the rules of engagement. @THEIS is right I am one of those guys that has a hard time understanding we dont live in an era where you take out a city block to get one bad guy. I get that in some cases but I disagree with it in most cases. "By killing people we make more enemies" is a tough paradigm but if you don't want death and destruction don't go to war with the United States.
It crushes me to think some parent here got their kid back in a box because it was decided the collateral damage was unacceptable. Never should US "collateral damage" be acceptable. We dont belong where we are fighting if that is the case.
I know I am naive, guess I just cant accept that when I was in I was expendable. In my mind Im pretty valuable.
This is a dumb thing for me to bring up because it only in a round about way has anything to do with ASR.
With all the shit you guys currently have to carry when does the "camels" back finally carry the straw too many. Im not calling you a camel by they way. Everything just seems to be getting bigger, heavier and more "system". I guess thats a fact of life now that life sustainment gear is much more available and effective.
Not trying to be a dick just trying to understand with the bigger calibers you get bigger gear, you get issues to train with it, you get quicker shooter fatigue, shit local base here wont even allow the use of .50, .338 or any similar "magnum" calibers, is the benefit worth the cost?
I still advocate for people like SOCOM a "suite" of weapons to choose from based on need and if the answer to that is that its too difficult for logistics to handle than put Amazon in charge and your ammo supply will be on the hillside via drone delivery.
You addressed that you dont think "line" infantry would be the intent for this proposal. I think that is correct but what will they use? It seems the USMC is going to one size fits all with .300WM what will the greater Army use in place of 2010 - same ASR now that they are on board with this?
Hi,
Well that would allow them to have Crane, PWS, etc etc the possibility to rechamber the 300NM barrels with burned out throats and still get to use them for the 308Win ammunition.
Sincerely,
Theis
If I remember correctly the .308win. barrels will finish at 20". The Norma's are either 26" or 27" finish.
I'll say 8 twist was standardized because on the .30's because the .308win. is going to be a short barrel length of 20" is one reason. The Shorty .30's we make for the military has all been 1-8's for a while now. Also Big Green tested .300 Norma in 10 twist, 8, 8.5 and 9 twist barrels. No accuracy difference was noted good or bad out to a 1k yards. So I think instead of having two different spec's for the .30cal. barrels. Just one spec. was written for those.
The wear will be so bad on the magnums that once they are shot out you will not be able to cut enough off the breech end to get into clean rifling. That wear is going to extend up 6"-8" or more. Depending on the barrel contour you will only have about 3" to cut off and rechamber is a close number/guess.
Later, Frank
I'll say 8 twist was standardized because on the .30's because the .308win. is going to be a short barrel length of 20" is one reason. The Shorty .30's we make for the military has all been 1-8's for a while now. Also Big Green tested .300 Norma in 10 twist, 8, 8.5 and 9 twist barrels. No accuracy difference was noted good or bad out to a 1k yards. So I think instead of having two different spec's for the .30cal. barrels. Just one spec. was written for those.
The wear will be so bad on the magnums that once they are shot out you will not be able to cut enough off the breech end to get into clean rifling. That wear is going to extend up 6"-8" or more. Depending on the barrel contour you will only have about 3" to cut off and rechamber is a close number/guess.
Later, Frank
Our standard is size +.0005" day in and day out. Holding the tolerance to size +.0004" was no big deal for us. When we made barrels for ASR guns we sent an inspection report to the manufacturer like A.I. with the bore and groove size for every barrel. So they know exactly what they got.
I feel Big Army has gotten smarter on the barrels. By calling out a spec. dimension with a size tolerance helps guarantee that they get a better/more consistent product vs. getting a factory made barrel or a barrel made from a low end barrel maker and what ever they send you, that you take what they give ya. Not gonna happen this time around. Also some makes of barrels after rifling and during contouring/final machine work the bore can change/go sour on you. By calling out the spec. and putting it in writing you start eliminating variables.
IMHO.....they should've tightened up the allowed variance in the twist rate as well.
Later, Frank
Just out of curiosity, are you selling any of those barrels exactly like that to people who might like to satisfy their interest in building something to a specific "spec" for fun.
Lessons learned from Rem and the PSR barrels no doubt.
Lol, ok good point here and there probably isn't a need to "kill you, if I tell you". I'll start off by cut and paste some primary mission sets of SF and expound up them in the context of sniping and maybe t paint a couple of tactical vignettes based of my personal experiences as to how the ASR is a practical adaptation.
SPECIAL RECONNAISSANCE: Surveillance conducted in hostile, denied, or diplomatically or politically sensitive environments is known as Special Reconnaissance. During this mission, Soldiers collect or verify information of strategic significance, and employ capabilities not normally used by conventional forces. Ok so this is something I did quite a lot of as a SF sniper. A lot of folks think this is a mission set thats obsolete with the arrivel of ISR platforms but SR teams still provide much better situational awareness, that ISR can't. So where does the ASR come into play? Well start with asking your self why the SR team is collecting or verifying information in the first place. Its typically because somebody in or around the OBJ is going get butt-fucked by JADAMs or commandos...or maybe both. Typically an SR team isn't the sole kentic response but it can support follow on DA missions with organic fires, if and when things go kinetic. A bolt gun in .300/.338NM offers much better standoff than a .308 (or what ever the 6-6.5mm flavor of the month is) and with organic fire typically can deliver that strike option on command, instead of playing radio with support aircraft. This isn't secret, its science. The bigger the bubble of death I have the further away from the OBJ I can be which means more/better hide site options.
DIRECT ACTION: Direct Action missions are short duration strikes used to seize, capture, recover or destroy enemy material, or recover personnel - Again most of the above in the SR is applicable when the sniper team is in support of a DA option via SR, but its also posable that snipers will move in support the DA Mission, perhaps breaking off from the assualt force at the OPR or integrating with the support by fire. Here in this case the ASR probably doesn't bring anything to the table. The while the ASR can fulfill the role, the SASS/SPR's in a 6-6.5 are better suited given the distances and engagements speeds...but .30 cal@3200fps will fold bad guys in half, even though cars, espsially if you're only 200m from the OBJ.
Of course there are what you might consider "subset" of DA in the case of something like Hard Target Interdiction or High Value Target Interdiction, the snipers may very well be the primary kinetic option, the ASR's ability in launching payload delivering projectiles, greatly increases lethal effect and increaseed standoff options improves the teams survivability. Honestly the HTI/HVTI mission pretty rare to non-existant these days but given the predicted operational conditions of future conflicts, this reamins a viable option.
FOREIGN INTERNAL DEFENSE: Foreign Internal Defense is the act of training and equipping foreign allied military forces to defend against insurgency, subversion, terrorism and other security threats. (Also see SECURITY FORCE ASSISTANCE and COUNTERINSURGENCY and COUNTER TERRORISM. - Ah, a rose by any other name...I've kind of lumped all these into one big mess because thats usual how it comes in the real world. You can argue definitions to the academic level all week but as a simple man in the field, these mission sets have so much cross over. I will say that the CRIF's CT mission certainly warrents note for its delibrate role but its quite a bit a part from the wider CT mission.
So, how does the ASR play out? While these mission typically don't focus on unilateral operation combat operations, they can range from vacations with guns, to training exercise abroad, to low vis support to partner nation, to herding commandos on "host nation" lead operations, to shit has gotten real and now the adults are taking over. What most fail to see is that there isn't always a huge amount of logistical support. Ammunition procurement while abroad can be difficult. The biggest power plays the ASR has to make is 1.) Flexibility in diet - .308 is pretty common across the world, so whether we are talking about simply be able to participate in a training with Nepalese Rangers because the LNO lost the import paper work, or planing on ammunition commonality durning contingency operation with ROK SF or ripping belts of 7.62 off your afghan commando, you're not going to find 6.5 anything anywhere. 2.) Assuming you are logistcally supported to the "T", then .300/.338NM offers low impact interdiction capabilities that are organic. I hear phrases all the time like "1000 and beyond is for Artty and CAS"...yeah sure ROEs aside, non-orgnic fires are often not available or impractical in there response time.
Example - I was workedin central Afghanistan in 2012 for about 10 months, our team of 8 dudes was 50k (or 12hrs) from the closest supporting ground elements, no unit artillery was capable of ranging us even with RAP rounds and Air was 50 minutes response time, unless they were already spun up for something else. So for that first hour of contact we're on our own. We had 120s and 81s organic which was great but you drop enough 120 HE on prox, and sooner or later they figure out you can only range 7k from that fixed location and they can just hold close to popluation centers to mitigate that treat. End result is we used .300WM and .50BMG in effectively shape the battle space of 20K long valley. Our team racked up 50-60 EKIA with those ELR capabilities in a few months time, mostly just while trying to do FID shit like have tea, building wells and babysitting commandos. As you can see sniping isn't the mission, it supports the mission.
UNCONVENTIONAL WARFARE: Unconventional warfare is activities conducted to enable a resistance movement or insurgency to coerce, disrupt, or overthrow a government or occupying power by operating through or with an underground, auxiliary, and guerrilla force in a denied area. - I left this one for last because of its over arching nature it includes the potential to be executing all of the missions above in but now in denied areas, by/with/through whatever friends you can make and most likely whatever you can carry on your back. Its not a mission set that particually useful in the current conflicts but as for preping the stage of future operations I think its still relevant. So how does the ASR play its hand? Well pound for pound I'd doubt you'd get more bang for your buck than with an SWS in asymmetrical conflict.
Long winded but there it is in the smallest nutshell I can manage as to why I see the ASR program as being relevant for SOF.
From a historical perspective, I think you'll find that while "experienced, intelligent operators performing relevant analysis" happens all the time, more often than not what actually gets done / purchased / approved / produced / deployed is something in which a lot of "other" things have been taken into account instead & the end result has been modified to fit what the "other" interests were. Sometimes not, but that is the case a lot of times.
Otherwise the original PSR might have gone to AI or Barrett and then when the .300 Norma/.338 Norma and faster twist rates became a thing, they just had to buy additional barrels for their setup.
Lol, ok good point here and there probably isn't a need to "kill you, if I tell you". I'll start off by cut and paste some primary mission sets of SF and expound up them in the context of sniping and maybe t paint a couple of tactical vignettes based of my personal experiences as to how the ASR is a practical adaptation.
SPECIAL RECONNAISSANCE: Surveillance conducted in hostile, denied, or diplomatically or politically sensitive environments is known as Special Reconnaissance. During this mission, Soldiers collect or verify information of strategic significance, and employ capabilities not normally used by conventional forces. Ok so this is something I did quite a lot of as a SF sniper. A lot of folks think this is a mission set thats obsolete with the arrivel of ISR platforms but SR teams still provide much better situational awareness, that ISR can't. So where does the ASR come into play? Well start with asking your self why the SR team is collecting or verifying information in the first place. Its typically because somebody in or around the OBJ is going get butt-fucked by JADAMs or commandos...or maybe both. Typically an SR team isn't the sole kentic response but it can support follow on DA missions with organic fires, if and when things go kinetic. A bolt gun in .300/.338NM offers much better standoff than a .308 (or what ever the 6-6.5mm flavor of the month is) and with organic fire typically can deliver that strike option on command, instead of playing radio with support aircraft. This isn't secret, its science. The bigger the bubble of death I have the further away from the OBJ I can be which means more/better hide site options.
DIRECT ACTION: Direct Action missions are short duration strikes used to seize, capture, recover or destroy enemy material, or recover personnel - Again most of the above in the SR is applicable when the sniper team is in support of a DA option via SR, but its also posable that snipers will move in support the DA Mission, perhaps breaking off from the assualt force at the OPR or integrating with the support by fire. Here in this case the ASR probably doesn't bring anything to the table. The while the ASR can fulfill the role, the SASS/SPR's in a 6-6.5 are better suited given the distances and engagements speeds...but .30 cal@3200fps will fold bad guys in half, even though cars, espsially if you're only 200m from the OBJ.
Of course there are what you might consider "subset" of DA in the case of something like Hard Target Interdiction or High Value Target Interdiction, the snipers may very well be the primary kinetic option, the ASR's ability in launching payload delivering projectiles, greatly increases lethal effect and increaseed standoff options improves the teams survivability. Honestly the HTI/HVTI mission pretty rare to non-existant these days but given the predicted operational conditions of future conflicts, this reamins a viable option.
FOREIGN INTERNAL DEFENSE: Foreign Internal Defense is the act of training and equipping foreign allied military forces to defend against insurgency, subversion, terrorism and other security threats. (Also see SECURITY FORCE ASSISTANCE and COUNTERINSURGENCY and COUNTER TERRORISM. - Ah, a rose by any other name...I've kind of lumped all these into one big mess because thats usual how it comes in the real world. You can argue definitions to the academic level all week but as a simple man in the field, these mission sets have so much cross over. I will say that the CRIF's CT mission certainly warrents note for its delibrate role but its quite a bit a part from the wider CT mission.
So, how does the ASR play out? While these mission typically don't focus on unilateral operation combat operations, they can range from vacations with guns, to training exercise abroad, to low vis support to partner nation, to herding commandos on "host nation" lead operations, to shit has gotten real and now the adults are taking over. What most fail to see is that there isn't always a huge amount of logistical support. Ammunition procurement while abroad can be difficult. The biggest power plays the ASR has to make is 1.) Flexibility in diet - .308 is pretty common across the world, so whether we are talking about simply be able to participate in a training with Nepalese Rangers because the LNO lost the import paper work, or planing on ammunition commonality durning contingency operation with ROK SF or ripping belts of 7.62 off your afghan commando, you're not going to find 6.5 anything anywhere. 2.) Assuming you are logistcally supported to the "T", then .300/.338NM offers low impact interdiction capabilities that are organic. I hear phrases all the time like "1000 and beyond is for Artty and CAS"...yeah sure ROEs aside, non-orgnic fires are often not available or impractical in there response time.
Example - I was workedin central Afghanistan in 2012 for about 10 months, our team of 8 dudes was 50k (or 12hrs) from the closest supporting ground elements, no unit artillery was capable of ranging us even with RAP rounds and Air was 50 minutes response time, unless they were already spun up for something else. So for that first hour of contact we're on our own. We had 120s and 81s organic which was great but you drop enough 120 HE on prox, and sooner or later they figure out you can only range 7k from that fixed location and they can just hold close to popluation centers to mitigate that treat. End result is we used .300WM and .50BMG in effectively shape the battle space of 20K long valley. Our team racked up 50-60 EKIA with those ELR capabilities in a few months time, mostly just while trying to do FID shit like have tea, building wells and babysitting commandos. As you can see sniping isn't the mission, it supports the mission.
UNCONVENTIONAL WARFARE: Unconventional warfare is activities conducted to enable a resistance movement or insurgency to coerce, disrupt, or overthrow a government or occupying power by operating through or with an underground, auxiliary, and guerrilla force in a denied area. - I left this one for last because of its over arching nature it includes the potential to be executing all of the missions above in but now in denied areas, by/with/through whatever friends you can make and most likely whatever you can carry on your back. Its not a mission set that particually useful in the current conflicts but as for preping the stage of future operations I think its still relevant. So how does the ASR play its hand? Well pound for pound I'd doubt you'd get more bang for your buck than with an SWS in asymmetrical conflict.
Long winded but there it is in the smallest nutshell I can manage as to why I see the ASR program as being relevant for SOF.
Awesome and thank you for taking the time to type it out.
My understanding of what Army SF does and why it matters to me is exemplified by what happened in Egypt a few years ago with Al-Sisi overthrowing Morsi. Sure you guys will support host soldiers but more importantly, perhaps, just perhaps, some of the political objective actually makes it into the skull of stone age man and after decades of Bright Stars or training to fight threats internal and external some of the political things you instruct on actually take hold and you get a guy like Al-Sisi to say "This is bullshit, Inshallah" and a real threat is eliminated without the US firing a shot or you bring some humanity to the barbarian (and they are not stone age or barbarian those guys have a lot of balls working with you knowing our fickle government could abandon them with a change in the wind).
The other services SF dont seem to emphasize that political component as much as I understand Beret people do.
Perhaps I give you too much credit but still I think I got my tax moneys worth out of Al-Sisi's exposure to the US mil from the 80s on. Too bad the commies in charge at the time he took power failed to fully support.
I dont doubt for a second the need in your case for you to get whatever you want.
Perhaps my lack of understanding comes from my assumption "everyone" is requesting the ASR to become standardized.
At least you guys get the beards and ability to modify your uniform some but when I see photos of Infantry regiment guys in the Army they are buttoned up like turtles. I imagine some Company order exists that requires the groin plate, shoulders, throat, cumberbund sides, helmet (strapped), knee pads and of course ballistic lenses. Than add the fighting gear. My wish for that guy is an XM-3 or something he can get in and out of a vehicle with, its capable of extending beyond the M4 and limits the ass kicking he takes from his own gear.
What does the Platoon that does a combat security patrol within a limited distance/duration from a fixed base require?
Sure in AF perhaps an overwatch might have the ability to cover and ASR in a static position would be needed.
What if available cover doesnt allow for distance. Is the weight and fatigue added on top of every thing else you carry worth it?
Moot point perhaps depending on what comes of the proposal request.
Fun to speculate because I like rifles and in my case watched enough Military Channel to be ignorant.
A t least you guys get the beards and ability to modify your uniform some but when I see photos of Infantry regiment guys in the Army they are buttoned up like turtles. I imagine some Company order exists that requires the groin plate, shoulders, throat, cumberbund sides, helmet (strapped), knee pads and of course ballistic lenses. Than add the fighting gear. My wish for that guy is an XM-3 or something he can get in and out of a vehicle with, its capable of extending beyond the M4 and limits the ass kicking he takes from his own gear.
I was composing my reply when you posted.
Believe me I place a lot of respect on what you guys do because your "intimate" working with host country militaries and the fact educating is as much a part of the fighting, perhaps more so, in your mission requires capable, intelligent people, that have to develop the analysis of who or who will not support our strategic goals in a theatre.
My example, if Im right, is Egypt.
As another posted the problem is you guys often report to deaf ears and only about 1% of us dorks in the country understand it. The voting electorate has no clue.
A couple of scenarios. First would be the requirement to expend upwards of 35% of budget monies in the Small Business program which means Agencies have to work to get Small Business credit for the dollars they spend. Maybe more plausible is they do not want the big companies playing so they get more juice for the squeeze? Maybe they want more operations input versus engineering theory?
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I think that has more to do with the fact that the military is largely mechanized, and (largely) trucked into combat, not hoofing it in on their black cadillacs (or brown as the case may be these days). It's the same reason PFT's are slowly migrating to be strength based, rather than stamina (running) based. Times have changed, and strength is more valuable these days (being able to take an IED blast or lift a wounded buddy into a vehicle in all their battle rattle, etc.).
Weight is less of concern now, though it is still important (obviously) to many of the services. Whether that is wise or not, remains to be seen.
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Man.... and I thought neckbeards liked to measure dicks....
They ain’t got anything on you military guys!!!! Lmao!!!!
It’s like you guys try to see who is more super-secret-squirrel OAF or throw down as much shade as you can on some guys opinions..... you all try to see who has the “biggest in” with the mostest acronyms.....
Lmao! Please keep it up! I love it!
Thanks....
Bender....
They ain’t got anything on you military guys!!!! Lmao!!!!
It’s like you guys try to see who is more super-secret-squirrel OAF or throw down as much shade as you can on some guys opinions..... you all try to see who has the “biggest in” with the mostest acronyms.....
Lmao! Please keep it up! I love it!
Thanks....
Bender....
For cop jobs its tough finding kids that can pass the PFT. They all say how easy it will be running the 1.5 mile base line course. Than you never hear from them again when they fail it.
My Guard buddy says the rail thin 100 pound kids make it half way through runs and than stop saying "It hurts".
Some of its fitness, most of it is lack of heart.
Granted anyone getting issued an ASR should have plenty of fitness and heart but maybe the ASR should spec wheels so it can be dragged like a golf bag rather than carried.
neckbeard
Talkative, self-important nerdy men (usually age 30 and up) who, through an inability to properly decode social cues, mistake others' strained tolerance of their blather for evidence of their own charm.
Nailed me!
We're a custom shop. You just have to tell us what you want. If you want the ASR spec. it's nothing proprietary or top secret as far as I'm concerned.
Like I said the .30's are 1-8 twist and all 5R rifling. Only call out difference is Big Army requires the bore and groove tolerance to be held to min. spec. +.0004".
Order barrel, take to your smith and have him fit it up to your rifle. Done!
Later, Frank
Looks like Barrett was awarded the contract
https://gununiversity.com/breaking-barrett-wins-socom-advanced-sniper-rifle-contract-asr/
https://gununiversity.com/breaking-barrett-wins-socom-advanced-sniper-rifle-contract-asr/
Barrett always seems to win US contracts. Im an AI fan so naturally would like to see our top tier ass kickers carrying AI's.
I agree in many ways. Problem is Barret has a long history with US MIL. Not to mention all the tooling and parts already in inventory. it probably came down to money and politics not performance..........................................as usual.
Spoken like a bunch of guys who have never ran the two rifles side by side. The MRAD runs shoots with the best of them, boys.
acually have used both. im not saying the decision is wrong. Im just sayin the AI is a better all around rifle. But i wasnt there and im not the one using them so my opinion means nothing. at th very least american companies are still feeding american troops. that counts for something!
Good, at least you've tried both. I've owned them both and the MRAD did not leave me wanting at all, other than cheaper and more barrel options. Which means squat to the military. It does some things better than the AI and vice versa. The AI love is strong here (a bit too much imo) and AI definitely caters more to the civilian market than Barrett does.
Absolutely. I just think the AI is a touch more refined in the action and bolt. But the MRAD is no slouch.
I've shot both. A barrett m98 I think in .300wm. There isnt anything wrong with the barrett but I like the AI better and action design better like tacticaldillhole eluded to. Just a preference. The barrett is still nice though.
Hi,
Say it isn't so....A guy 12 miles from Barrett talking about too much "AI Love" here....LOLOL.
Congrats to Chris and rest of the Barrett Team on this contract, BUT lets not act as if all the sudden the USA Government purchases the "Best" of something.
A lot goes into the decision making of these contracts such as:
Fulfillment timelines
Price (of course)
Training Programs (Train the Trainer, Armorer, etc)
Logistics
Ease of Depot Level maintenance
Negotiations of "Separation of Contract". Some manufacturers try to play hard ball with this too much. Gov wants to be able to separate from contract as easy as possible.
Etc, Etc, Etc
Sincerely,
Theis
Say it isn't so....A guy 12 miles from Barrett talking about too much "AI Love" here....LOLOL.
Congrats to Chris and rest of the Barrett Team on this contract, BUT lets not act as if all the sudden the USA Government purchases the "Best" of something.
A lot goes into the decision making of these contracts such as:
Fulfillment timelines
Price (of course)
Training Programs (Train the Trainer, Armorer, etc)
Logistics
Ease of Depot Level maintenance
Negotiations of "Separation of Contract". Some manufacturers try to play hard ball with this too much. Gov wants to be able to separate from contract as easy as possible.
Etc, Etc, Etc
Sincerely,
Theis
lol whats up bitches
My only complaint is that I am required to load at mag length for the 300g 338LM putting me to a .025 jump at the absolute best. Not sure if this could be fixed with caliber specific magazines as they only have a short action and long action mag.
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Not to mention. How many barrett's do u see in competition? I know 1 guy that does, and he is basically a non competitive shooter that shoots .300wm in PRS and local matches. Think ab that versus how many AIs you see in matches. Cant say cost has a influence bc the m98b, which is the short action model tactical rifle, is cheaper than even an AW, used AE or ATs. This is anecdotal, but something valid to mention none the less.
A guy with an open mind who currently owns an AI. All I'm saying is that claiming that the reason the AI didn't win is purely politics and some under the table monkey business is nonsense. The MRAD will hang with an AI all day for less money.
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As much as I agree the AI is the better system (yes I've handled and shot both), I don't that what is used vs isn't used in PRS is really relevant to this contract.
Hi,
Yea, the word "Politics" really isn't appropriate. It is just the easiest way to point out an ideology concept.
These contracts DO indeed take into consideration the following "Politics":
.Gov definitely prefers to go with entities they have already done business with.
Sincerely,
Theis
Yea, the word "Politics" really isn't appropriate. It is just the easiest way to point out an ideology concept.
These contracts DO indeed take into consideration the following "Politics":
- Manufacturers submitting to solicitations must include contract number(s) of which they have submitted tenders to previously.
- Manufacturers submitting to solicitations must include contract number(s) of which they have been awarded tenders previously.
- Manufacturers submitting to solicitations must include contract number(s) of which they completed in full and did not complete.
- Manufacturers submitting to solicitations must include the number of employees they currently have and how many "potential" new employees the awarding of tender would bring to the company.
- Etc Etc Etc.
.Gov definitely prefers to go with entities they have already done business with.
Sincerely,
Theis
The issue I heard from the test was, an AI trigger went down, which handed the contract to Barrett.
The first one should have gone to AI over Remington, and the issues with Remington became apparent after the fact.
I don't want to sound like I am pointing fingers more like filling in the blanks and thinking out loud, but to have an AI trigger go down something out of the ordinary had to happen. They do have a US Company making the Competition trigger and I am not sure if that was the trigger included or the original AI trigger. I have feeling, and again, one I did not explore with AI, that this small change resulted in the problem reported.
A lot more of the AI line is made here in the US, this was designed to help with certain contracts. AI is already used by different units and their parts are used by the likes of Crane on the Mk13s, etc. It's not like they are not in the system, but the country of origin has an effect.
Barrett will do fine, the only issue with the MRAD was the lack of support on the civilian side and it really just sat dormant for years, but now it has a contract I am sure they will ramp up production on the support parts and pieces of the system.
The first one should have gone to AI over Remington, and the issues with Remington became apparent after the fact.
I don't want to sound like I am pointing fingers more like filling in the blanks and thinking out loud, but to have an AI trigger go down something out of the ordinary had to happen. They do have a US Company making the Competition trigger and I am not sure if that was the trigger included or the original AI trigger. I have feeling, and again, one I did not explore with AI, that this small change resulted in the problem reported.
A lot more of the AI line is made here in the US, this was designed to help with certain contracts. AI is already used by different units and their parts are used by the likes of Crane on the Mk13s, etc. It's not like they are not in the system, but the country of origin has an effect.
Barrett will do fine, the only issue with the MRAD was the lack of support on the civilian side and it really just sat dormant for years, but now it has a contract I am sure they will ramp up production on the support parts and pieces of the system.
No, I agree with u. Hence the disclaimer in my post. I only said it to give an example of the fed gov not going with the best, but the ones that clicks off more boxes with price being the biggest one, but the civilian competition side typically shows support with "the best" in mind as opposed to, which one checks off X amount of boxes. Hence why the AI is more prevalent than barrett but also why AI isnt the most used overall bc it isnt "the best" as far as the shooting style of which we do every weekend. Your custom actions fill that role very well.
With that said, in more than a few aspects, what the civilian side pushes can and does influence some facets of what is used down range. Hence tripod usage, shooting bags, civilian training, etc. But I agree, its wasnt what in to the decision making of this particular contract.
What makes the AI a better system for this contract? Genuine question as I have never touched an AXMC.
Most of the points on this page so far speak to it being more desirable for personal ownership.
How long are you needing to go? I just mic'd a long action MRAD magazine at 3.790" and 300gr scenars start to jam ~ 3.69"
Most of the points on this page so far speak to it being more desirable for personal ownership.
How long are you needing to go? I just mic'd a long action MRAD magazine at 3.790" and 300gr scenars start to jam ~ 3.69"
It's been announced. Barrett has been awarded the contract.
USSOCOM Selects Barrett Firearms Manufacturing MRAD as New Advanced Sniper Rifle | Soldier Systems Daily
USSOCOM has made the following announcement regarding the purchase of the Advanced Sniper Rifle: Barrett Firearms Manufacturing Inc., Christiana, Tennessee, ...
soldiersystems.net
I’m surly not in the know and have no reason to doubt you but I find it hard to believe that single broken field replaceable part on a test rifle that is already in the “same circle”, ended the test.
Especially after doing well in the original test a few years ago.
There has to be more??
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