advice for a 200+ yard .308

K

kor

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Minuteman
Nov 5, 2013
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#1
First post, so apologies if this is in the wrong place (or is the wrong forum to be posting this question on, but google tended to direct me here so it's worth a shot). This may have already been covered in a lot of places and, if so, you can just point me there and I'll read the 30 or 40 pages of posts that already exist.

A little background: I am not a particularly experienced shooter, I have maybe 1500 rounds total under my belt, most through a mossberg 500 whose recoil I rather like. I have an AR-15 (but I pull the trigger more than I want), and a .22LR bolt action that I just discovered the joy of accurate ammunition with.

I had my .22 at the range, and despite the badly mounted barrel (reciever is drilled about 3 degrees off center) and gentle breeze, when I did my part it was pushing 3 round groups into 30 caliber holes at 100 yards off a sandbag with a blurry 3-9x scope. When I was slacking off, the 5 shot groups were 1.5 inches wide by .5 inches tall. Not bad for $220 with scope, and I want similar performance out of something bigger (and obviously more expensive). I guess I've discovered the joy of accurate shooting and wish to pair it with more energy.

Can anyone suggest a good rifle to start with? I'm looking to:
punch paper (sub-moa if I do my part) at 200 yards and ring gongs at about 500 yards outdoors at the local city range
keep the weight down to under 8lbs without glass
keep the entire rifle as short as possible
have iron backup sights if possible
have a short (11-13 inch) LOP (adjustable ar-style stock would be nice)
have a pistol grip because it feels right in my hands
shoot .308 because that's what I've decided I want
have provisions for a forward mounted scope because I like to see more of what's around me but this is not a hard requirement.

And with any luck, do it all under $1k. I'm not adverse to taking the time to learn to put one together right.


Thanks for the help and/or berating!
 
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#4
First, I challenge your ability to shoot 3x .22's into a 30cal hole at 100 with the best equipment on a windless day.

Some of the best shooters I know, who shoot mostly .22 cant do that on demand. Thats with measuring rim thickness, meticulous data logging, wind flags and pixie dust.

Now - as for your center-fire rifle choice: I would stay away from .308, doesnt sound like you need it.

Sounds to me like you need a dedicated LR upper for you AR.

Goodluck and welcome to the site!
 
#5
I started with a Howa 1500 with the Axiom stock and 20" barrel. Sounds like what u are looking for to the T. I have one that i would b willing to let go of if it goes to a good home. look it up. I took it out 800 on steel. No prob 400 and in sub MOA.
 
#6
Remington 700 SPS Tactical ($620.00) + SWFA SS 10X Kit w/rings etc. ($400.00)would meet the OPs requirements.

Add a EGW Rail he is up and running.

It is not a high end package, but that combination is easily good to 800 yards for a beginning shooter.
 
#7
Lafayette said:
First, I challenge your ability to shoot 3x .22's into a 30cal hole at 100 with the best equipment on a windless day.

Some of the best shooters I know, who shoot mostly .22 cant do that on demand. Thats with measuring rim thickness, meticulous data logging, wind flags and pixie dust.

Now - as for your center-fire rifle choice: I would stay away from .308, doesnt sound like you need it.

Sounds to me like you need a dedicated LR upper for you AR.

Goodluck and welcome to the site!
Click to expand...

I was surprised too and I'd be surprised if I could do it with much regularity, but it's what was happening when I managed to keep the barrel steady. I could barely notice the holes getting more ragged with each shot, but I know I wasn't missing an 18 inch target. When I do it again, I'll post pictures.

Why not .308? Why a different upper for the AR? Any suggestions regarding which one? I was leaning away from anything for an AR mostly because it felt better to me to work the bolt each time since it makes me pay more attention than just "squeeze trigger, see new hole, repeat", which is what I tend to do with it.


lslarkin07 said:
I started with a Howa 1500 with the Axiom stock and 20" barrel. Sounds like what u are looking for to the T. I have one that i would b willing to let go of if it goes to a good home. look it up. I took it out 800 on steel. No prob 400 and in sub MOA.
Click to expand...

I've barely heard of Howa, I assume they have a decent reputation? What else can you tell me about them and that combination rifle?


jashmore1234 said:
Remington 700 SPS Tactical ($620.00) + SWFA SS 10X Kit w/rings etc. ($400.00)would meet the OPs requirements.

Add a EGW Rail he is up and running.

It is not a high end package, but that combination is easily good to 800 yards for a beginning shooter.
Click to expand...

I've felt a couple Remington 700's, but not a tactical. Biggest downside, the ones I looked at had no backup irons. I've never really been fond of how Remington anything feel, nor the lines of their collapsable pistol grip stocks, they look like an afterthought to me. Of course, if they work well, how they look is secondary. Do they work well? Are you referring to this one: http://remington.com/products/firea...actical/model-700-sps-tactical-blackhawk.aspx or this one: http://remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-sps-tactical.aspx

What is this EGW rail you mention?
 
#9
+1 on the Axiom. It would be a great starter rifle, if you are needing a budget factory rifle with pistol grip. Throw on a SS 10x and EGW base, a good $50 set of rings and get out and shoot!
Howa 308 Win. Varmint Rifle/20" Heavy Barrel/Black Adjustabl $683.00 SHIPS FREE

attachment.php
 
#10
Shanerbanner10 said:
I think you need to just go get an M28 Davy Crockett. That will solve all problems here.
Click to expand...

Bore's a little big, ammo is probably prohibitively expensive, and RSO might complain about me hitting everyone's targets. O course, he might get caught in the blast and not care. Either way, I doubt I could get my hands on one.

Crosshair said:
+1 on the Axiom. It would be a great starter rifle, if you are needing a budget factory rifle with pistol grip. Throw on a SS 10x and EGW base, a good $50 set of rings and get out and shoot!
Howa 308 Win. Varmint Rifle/20" Heavy Barrel/Black Adjustabl $683.00 SHIPS FREE

attachment.php
Click to expand...

Second suggestion for that scope, what makes it so good?
 
#11
If I was spending $1000, I would personally do a Savage Hog Hunter (about $440) in .308, it has accutigger and barrels are easily swapped without needing to take it to a smith (with some tools). I think you'd much prefer a B&C Medalist stock ($260)over an AR type, they are much sturdier, unless you get into a more expensive chassis system. Borrowed pic from google of Hog hunter in B&C Medalist:

IMG_20130726_161535_zps25982464.jpg
 
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#14
Thanks for all the replies! I'll assume everything listed will meet my accuracy requirements, but they all seem to miss on 4 points. There is probably a good reason for this, can someone enlighten me?
kor said:
keep the weight down to under 8lbs without glass
keep the entire rifle as short as possible
have iron backup sights if possible
have provisions for a forward mounted scope
Click to expand...

P.S. start the enlightenment by hacking off a leg, I use my arms more.
 
#15
The Savage Hog hunter has iron sights.

I agree you don't need .308 for 200 yards. .223 REM is significantly cheaper and will go to more than twice your requirement. 308 is certainly not bad for what you want to do, you could just do it cheaper and equally well in .223.

Why is your weight requirement what it is? How did you arrive at 8lbs?

People are recommending an accurate upper for your AR because it means you don't have to buy another gun, which will save you money and .223 will do everything you are asking.

If you have a tendency to squeeze trigger, see new hole and repeat, I see no problem with that. I have no experience shooting ELR with my personal farthest shot ever at 200 yards on a range, so I can offer little advice outside the academic side of it.

I have a Rem 700 ADL in .308 WIN because I shoot animals with it too so I wanted something bigger and more powerful than .223. I actually want to re-barrel it to .260 REM now that I am getting into reloading and will be able to afford it.
 
#16
kor- can i suggest you look at the budget precision build series on lonewolfusmc's youtube channel. not because that is the rifle you should get, but because viewing those will expose you to equipment and equipment choices. i mention this as it is likely easier than reading loads of threads here on the hide. btw, reading loads of threads here is a great idea too.
 
#17
Good questions, more detail from to start might have helped.

I live along the rocky mountains and frequently (used to be once or twice a month, work schedule changed that) go camping in them around 9k feet. The weight was picked as it's a bit more than my 12 gauge, the length is due to very dense brush, the caliber due to bear country, and yes the shotgun suits my needs as a camp gun, but I'd rather be proficient in one weapon first for that and hobby than one for each. I had been thinking about one of the scout rifle offerings but 1.5 moa from experienced shooters does not give me confidence.

With regards to pull trigger, see hole, repeat: it's fun at the range but feels a bit hollow and lacking afterwards. When I bought the ar, I was looking for a bolt action 5.56mm to use surplus rounds for the range. The store had none not in .223 only. but the ar was cheap so I got it, fell in love with the ergonomics, and started hating how little I cared about where I hit. I want to fix that.
 
#18
kor said:
I've felt a couple Remington 700's, but not a tactical. Biggest downside, the ones I looked at had no backup irons. I've never really been fond of how Remington anything feel, nor the lines of their collapsable pistol grip stocks, they look like an afterthought to me. Of course, if they work well, how they look is secondary. Do they work well? Are you referring to this one: Centerfire Rifle - Model 700 SPS Tactical with BLACKHAWK! Axiom II - Remington Centerfire Rifles or this one: Centerfire Rifle - Model 700 SPS Tactical - Remington Centerfire Rifles

What is this EGW rail you mention?
Click to expand...

I have never had a need for backup iron sights on a precision rifle as I don't work on a two way range.

The SPS tactical (the second rifle linked) is the one I was referring to. It will likely shoot much better than you do from 100 yards to 800 yards. I have shot mine out to 1000 yards with good results.

The rail is attached to the action and the scope rings are attached to the rail. The EGW rail is a fairly inexpensive rail that will get the job done.
 
#19
Get the hog hunter in 308, it will do all that you want it to do, drop a primary arms FFP on there and use the $300+ left over for reloading equipment or ammo.

Crosshair said:
If I was spending $1000, I would personally do a Savage Hog Hunter (about $440) in .308, it has accutigger and barrels are easily swapped without needing to take it to a smith (with some tools). I think you'd much prefer a B&C Medalist stock ($260)over an AR type, they are much sturdier, unless you get into a more expensive chassis system. Borrowed pic from google of Hog hunter in B&C Medalist:

IMG_20130726_161535_zps25982464.jpg
Click to expand...
 
#20
If you really want a scout optic type setup, the Ruger Gunsite Scout has forward picatinny mount, and 16.5" or 18" barrel in regular or stainless. 7.1 lbs, detachable mag, and great iron sights. I've seen them around $750-$850. Burris 2.75x scout scope and go hiking...:cool:

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#21
Crosshair said:
If you really want a scout optic type setup, the Ruger Gunsite Scout has forward picatinny mount, and 16.5" or 18" barrel in regular or stainless. 7.1 lbs, detachable mag, and great iron sights. I've seen them around $750-$850. Burris 2.75x scout scope and go hiking...:cool:

6803.jpg
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I almost bought one, and while it'll probably outshoot me, is accuracy not a sum of myself and the rifle? If I shoot 2 inches with a tack driver and someone that drives tacks shoots 2 inches with that rifle, should I not expect 4 inch groups? The reviews I've seen for that rifle come in about 1.5 MOA, why handicap myself?

I missed the irons on the gog hunter, sorry. It might be the way to go.

I'll check the youtube channel, thanks for the information.

I can always take a long rail section and drill it appropriately for a rifle, hang the end over the barrel, and get that forward mount (or get a long quick detach riser and slap it on normal bases and do the same). I'm not sold on one, but I'd like the option to try it. That said, they clearly aren't popular, why? Tradition? Sight picture? Glare? Because no one makes them because they're not popular because no one makes them?

Thanks again, everyone's been helpful and it is very appreciated.
 
#22
kor said:
I almost bought one, and while it'll probably outshoot me, is accuracy not a sum of myself and the rifle? If I shoot 2 inches with a tack driver and someone that drives tacks shoots 2 inches with that rifle, should I not expect 4 inch groups? The reviews I've seen for that rifle come in about 1.5 MOA, why handicap myself?

I missed the irons on the gog hunter, sorry. It might be the way to go.

I'll check the youtube channel, thanks for the information.

I can always take a long rail section and drill it appropriately for a rifle, hang the end over the barrel, and get that forward mount (or get a long quick detach riser and slap it on normal bases and do the same). I'm not sold on one, but I'd like the option to try it. That said, they clearly aren't popular, why? Tradition? Sight picture? Glare? Because no one makes them because they're not popular because no one makes them?

Thanks again, everyone's been helpful and it is very appreciated.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've heard accuracy is hit and miss on the Ruger GSS. If it could be easily made into an honest 1moa gun, I think it would fill it's niche nicely. I'm curious if the pre-machined aluminum pillars that are available for them would make much difference, I'm guessing most of the accuracy issues are stock-fit related, but I dunno.

About scout scopes, I think Col. Jeff Cooper was on to something with the Scout rifle concept, the forward mounted optic does give more peripheral vision. But, eye-relief is directly proportional to field of view (all things being equal), so even with a low power setting you still have drastically smaller magnified filed of view. I find the only useful magnification on scout scopes is under 3x. With the 1-4x and 1-6x scopes being as good as they are these days, most guys prefer a true 1x for close range target acquisition, as it provides a seamless stereoscopic sight picture, and the 4x or 6x on the high end is more useful that the 2x-3x of useable top end of scout scopes....IMO. If you have't looked through a high quality 1-4x, check em out... I love the Trijicon 1-4x24 with amber triangle and would be my choice for a short, handy scout type rifle.
 
#23
I left out mention of an optic to keep from convoluting things at the start, but I knew it'd come up eventually.

If I'm punching holes in paper, why would I care how much I can see magnified around the target? (Seriously, I don't know but want to learn.)

When I bought my first scope, I didn't know of focal planes, I was shocked when the reticle didn't change size (turns out the moa lines are only accurate on power 4 of a 3-9 scope, but reasonably useful at 9x on my .22, a $40 lesson in what I want isn't bad). I want first focal plane, some form of measurement, and more eye relief. No more than 3x at the low end, no less than 7 at the high end should do well.

Would I have any forseeable problems extending a rail with a long riser?
 
#24
kor said:
I left out mention of an optic to keep from convoluting things at the start, but I knew it'd come up eventually.

If I'm punching holes in paper, why would I care how much I can see magnified around the target? (Seriously, I don't know but want to learn.)

When I bought my first scope, I didn't know of focal planes, I was shocked when the reticle didn't change size (turns out the moa lines are only accurate on power 4 of a 3-9 scope, but reasonably useful at 9x on my .22, a $40 lesson in what I want isn't bad). I want first focal plane, some form of measurement, and more eye relief. No more than 3x at the low end, no less than 7 at the high end should do well.

Would I have any forseeable problems extending a rail with a long riser?
Click to expand...

I guess I'm a little confused as to the main things you are after. By the list of attributes you are talking about, you are describing a fast handling mountain rifle, not a longer range paper punching bench gun.
Sub 8lb. rifle before optic------ Not conducive to a paper-punching bench rifle. Most are on the heavy side for a reason; heavier barrels, stocks, and higher power glass, bi-pod, all add up to weight. Weight is also stability. A lot of these type rifles will easily top 12lbs. before scope.
Short as possible----- Shorter than average rifles are mainly made shorter to handle better and faster for hiking and in brush. Shorter doesn't mean less accurate though, just less velocity; ie. range.
Back up iron sights------ Irons don't come into play when punching paper at 200y. Irons are for quick and close range hunting and shooting movers. Or if the optic goes down in a life-or-death tactical situation, and then on an auto rifle.
Forward mounted optic------- Again, designed for quick and close, point shooting. Not at all conducive to paper punching. In not aware of any scout or LER scopes that are intended to be dialed up or down, or have any milling or ranging features and will be optically inferior to a similarly priced standard scope. If you want extra eye relief, choose one with 4" +, there are lots out there and are nice to have on recoiling magnums.

I wouldn't consider making a cantilevered scout rail out of a riser. Going to be an endless cluster. Start with known quantities. Get a Savage hog hunter, Rem AAC-SD, Tikka T3, or Howa 1500 and put a good $300-$400 3-9x, or 4-12x, or best of all, a fixed 10x or 12x SWFA SS (if you're not hunting) and start getting some rounds downrange, Just my advice.
 
#25
My biggest use will be punching paper, but I also like versatility and have use for a better woodland gun. I know that involves compromises, and I was hoping to get a little better than commercial scout offerings in the accuracy department at the cost of some weight and some more money (or get a light fast accurate target rifle at the cost of accuracy). Backup irons seem good if I don't want to abuse the scope in places I can't see past 50 yards.

I have seen a couple nice looking scout optics that do what I want, except focal plane. Not too sure on glass quality.
 
#26
kor said:
My biggest use will be punching paper, but I also like versatility and have use for a better woodland gun. I know that involves compromises, and I was hoping to get a little better than commercial scout offerings in the accuracy department at the cost of some weight and some more money (or get a light fast accurate target rifle at the cost of accuracy). Backup irons seem good if I don't want to abuse the scope in places I can't see past 50 yards.

I have seen a couple nice looking scout optics that do what I want, except focal plane. Not too sure on glass quality.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are asking to make recommendations when you do not have firm requirements. I recommend that you start reading threads and searching for topics of interest.

Not to be rude, but if you don't know specifically what you want you are going to be wasting peoples time. This site contains a wealth of information and is an incredible resource to come up to speed on the topic of precision rifles before you put your money down on something that will sit in the safe because you didn't think it through before you bought it.
 
#27
More research is what you need. Read, read, read here on the hide. You need to figure out what is important to you. Many of your requirements conflict with one another.With enough research/reading, you'll figure out the best set up.
 
#28
My GSS is about 2" at 100 yds with the irons and me behind it. Using just a Harris bipod on the front and shooting from a bench.
Remove rear sight and install 3x9 Leupold VX-3 in the factory rings that come with the gun and it is MOA or a little less under the same conditions. One change, 168 FGMM.
I tried 3 different scout scopes and never was able to get a satisfactory picture through the tube.
I have the option (spare scope) to mount a Trijicon 1-4x24 Accupoint with yellow post and chevron. Gonna use that for deer this season if I can get time off from work. Got one last year with the Leupold.

This makes a nice, handy hunting gun and the accuracy is more than adequate. Took the deer at about 175 with Hornady Zombie Max 165.
 
#29
jashmore1234 said:
This site contains a wealth of information and is an incredible resource to come up to speed on the topic of precision rifles before you put your money down on something that will sit in the safe because you didn't think it through before you bought it.
Click to expand...

That is why I'm selling my AR to a coworker that will use it and asking questions.

I'm becoming flexible because I couldn't find a commercial offering that did everything I wanted after a couple weeks looking, and I learned there's a reason for that from the people here: contradictory requirements.

Can you suggest some questions I need to be asking myself? How about information posted already to read?
 
#30
kor said:
That is why I'm selling my AR to a coworker that will use it and asking questions.

I'm becoming flexible because I couldn't find a commercial offering that did everything I wanted after a couple weeks looking, and I learned there's a reason for that from the people here: contradictory requirements.

Can you suggest some questions I need to be asking myself? How about information posted already to read?
Click to expand...

What is the primary function of this rifle? Hunting? Shooting paper for groups? Long range? Varmint? Show off to your friends?

How will the rifle be utilized? Will you shoot it standing (off hand), off sand bags, prone, off sticks, etc.?

What are your requirements? Not to be confused with parameters that would be nice, but are not necessary. In other words, what do you absolutely need in this rifle?

Are you willing to shoot high quality ammunition in order to achieve the desired accuracy results? If not, there's no point in building a highly accurate rifle because you'll be limited by the ammo.

You just need to narrow down on what you want out of the rifle. From my experience, trying to build a do-it-all rifle when you don't have a ton of experience in any single field is just going to create a money-sink with little to no benefit to the rifle or the shooter. Remember that a do-it-all rifle will, at best, perform mediocre at any given field.
 
#31
It will see most of it's use from a sandbag or bipod sitting at a bench. Some shots will be standing (no sticks), some kneeling. I will feed it about 500 rounds of cheap stuff, then switch to a mix of cheap, good, and hand loads depending on what I want to do any given day. I may hunt with it (I have never hunted but want to at least try once). I want it to replace my 12 gauge as a camp gun. The hog hunter, howa 1500, and remington tactical all look decently suited. So does the gunsite scout; the inconsistent accuracy rifle-rifle concerns me a little or I'd have one already.
 
#32
I don't mean to pile on here but it sounds like your scope is a bit broad for this rifle.

Why not let the shotgun be the camp gun and build a paper puncher that will do what you want it to off the bench? My 200-600 yard gun is a .223 bolt. You could grab a Tikka varmint for ~$700 and add the optic of your choice.

If you don't care for the feel of a rem 700 (I personally don't) the Tikka may be just what you're looking for. At least do a bit of reading about them before you buy anything.

I would reconsider your 308 requirement for 200 yards.
 
#33
I will also recommend the hog Hunter. Great entry level platform for you to grow with. That's what I am doing.

You can do just about anything you want with it. Partner it with some good glass and you will have yourself a very capable rifle.
 
#34
Thanks for all the (presumably) good information and helpful replies. I didn't get the kinds of answers I was hoping for, but I learned a bit about why and that is far more valuable.

I have some decisions to make about where to compromise, but it seems any entry level compromise I make will leave budget room to play with should I change my mind and sell it used. I'll probably get a hog hunter and see where that takes me.

Again, thanks to all and thanks for all the help, advice, information, and patience.
 
#36
That is a very nice looking rifle, I hope it shoots as well as it looks.

Are the irons at least slightly usable with the scope and rings off but rail still attached? I do know sight picture will be degraded.
 
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