Rifle Scopes Advice on RMR with LPVO

[LucasTNT]

I have received my VORTEX Razor Gen III (1-10) and would like to understand the current thinking on using a RMR with it at either the 12 or 3 position for immediate access to 1x while the scope set at some higher magnification.

1) How common is this practice for both tactical and competitive purposes?
2) Am I thinking correctly when I assume this is done to offer maximum options under all situations? (Better to have and not need, etc.....)
3) Best mounting position - looking at SPUHR mounts which make it possible actually to get it mounted on top of the mount itself, or at 3?
4) Best practices, etc.

Thanks for your input suggestions, as always, very much appreciate the knowledge base here.

 

[Halberdier]

Is this an AR?

I can't answer any of your questions, but have you considered 45 degree offset sights? I have those on one rifle. For short range the target acquisition is near instant.

 

[nn8734]

Run your RMR or Aimpoint at a 45 degree offset either using a tube-mount or an independent mount on the rail. This allows you to maintain a cheek weld and get on target by simply twisting the rifle to the left by 45 degrees vs braking cheekweld and trying to acquire the RMR.

I’ve ran these in all configurations on my various AR platform rifles and the RMR/Aimpoint at a 45 degree offset was the fastest and most effective for me.

 

[db2000]

I have received my VORTEX Razor Gen III (1-10) and would like to understand the current thinking on using a RMR with it at either the 12 or 3 position for immediate access to 1x while the scope set at some higher magnification.

1) How common is this practice for both tactical and competitive purposes?
2) Am I thinking correctly when I assume this is done to offer maximum options under all situations? (Better to have and not need, etc.....)
3) Best mounting position - looking at SPUHR mounts which make it possible actually to get it mounted on top of the mount itself, or at 3?
4) Best practices, etc.

Thanks for your input suggestions, as always, very much appreciate the knowledge base here.

12 or 45 degree. 3 would be an awkward rotation for "instantaneous" sight. 12 will work with your scope because of the low pro elevation turret.
Consider 45 degree BUIS since if you drop the rifle both optics may break. Or just go with Dueck Defense offset BUIS for $230 and be done with it.

 

[db2000]

I'd be interested in hearing realistic scenarios where you need to be on 5-8x mag taking shots and then immediately need 1x for CQC. Competitions aside.
I'll start...ninja jumps out of tree in front of you while shooting prone at a target 200 years away.

 

[Campt413]

I'm running a red dot on my 16" .308 on a spuhr mount.

I can see the arguments from guys about breaking the cheek weld, but hear me out.

With the red dot on the spuhr it puts the dot pretty high. Similar to a 1.93-2.04 height mount. This allows your head to be very upright and not hunched over. This may be of an advantage in the situation where you would need to use a red dot.



In my opinion, a red dot means more to a medium powered scope, than it does on a lvpo. Not saying it doesn't help a lvpo, but the advantage is greater for a 2-20ish scope.


Edit: just noticed that is the picture of my .223 wylde. Not my .308 that it is on now.

 

[nn8734]

I'd be interested in hearing realistic scenarios where you need to be on 5-8x mag taking shots and then immediately need 1x for CQC. Competitions aside.
I'll start...ninja jumps out of tree in front of you while shooting prone at a target 200 years away.

Those Ninjas can be very sneaky and usually hunt in packs...or perhaps he’s being deployed to Portland or Seattle in the next couple weeks or so.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

45 with a rmr or T2.

With practice you can use the red dot for quick acquisition of a distant target, then with a slight rotation maintaining cheeck weld be right on target with your magnified optic. Without having to adjust power.

 

[SRPowah]

I'd be interested in hearing realistic scenarios where you need to be on 5-8x mag taking shots and then immediately need 1x for CQC. Competitions aside.
I'll start...ninja jumps out of tree in front of you while shooting prone at a target 200 years away.

I was engaging ground squirrels at 300 yards on 10x, had one come out of its hole 20 yards away... Couldnt find it in the scope without coming all the way down to 2.5x. Wasn't the first time, won't be the last. Red dot would of been appreciated. Worth the money? Meh...more Trump Bucks might convince me.

 

[nn8734]

My DD m4 block II used to be set up with an Aimpoint T1 in a LaRue 45 degree offset QD mount and a NF 2.5-10x24 as the primary set on 8x or 10x...I’d take that rifle into the back country with me on hiking / camping trips. The red dot would essentially serve as the primary optic once the sun went down (I had no clip-on NOD at the time). I’ve since switched to Mk6 1-6x24 so no need for the Aimpoint.

I would think you can run the Gen III at 1x with minimal issues but I’ve never looked through one so can’t say for sure.

 

[mrtoyz]

I’ve been pondering the same using 45 degree mount. Have a free T1 to try but to me the size of the RMR or DPP seems more reasonable. My light looks like it might be in the way. Really need to try a few mounts to make sure it’ll all work and not have to change head position. Have my doubts.
Some good info here:

 

[Jigstick]

LPVOs with 45* offset red dots have been deployed for a long time now. And the versatility of the setup outstanding

 

[db2000]

I was engaging ground squirrels at 300 yards on 10x, had one come out of its hole 20 yards away... Couldnt find it in the scope without coming all the way down to 2.5x. Wasn't the first time, won't be the last. Red dot would of been appreciated. Worth the money? Meh...more Trump Bucks might convince me.

Good point.
My throw lever is pretty damn fast on my PA Plx 1-10x but my offset BUIS are probably faster.

 

[Slateman]

Arisaka makes a great offset mount. You can have it low or high, and at 35 degrees or 45 degrees. Highly recommend it.

 

[mrtoyz]

Saw a 45 mount from TRex

 

[AlpineSniper]

I would go with a 45 offset mount. If you go with a 12 oclock top mount you have to break cheek weld which leads to inconsistency. 45 is very quick.

 

[Pointman308]

Arisaka makes a great offset mount. You can have it low or high, and at 35 degrees or 45 degrees. Highly recommend it.

I use the same mount for a Holosun And they are excellent.

 

[Slateman]

I use the same mount for a Holosun And they are excellent.

Yea, gonna be honest, I think Holosuns are a lot better

 

[BufordTJustice]

45 with a rmr or T2.

With practice you can use the red dot for quick acquisition of a distant target, then with a slight rotation maintaining cheeck weld be right on target with your magnified optic. Without having to adjust power.

This^^. However, hanging lights, lasers, espresso machines on your rife adds weight. Options for Murphy to snag shit increases. Not saying there isn't a place for this stuff, just pointing out the obvious. My 308 w/ 20 Rd mag loaded all kited up, sling, Lpvo weighs 12 lbs. If you are considering a rmr in addition to your optic, might want to check out the badger condition one mount.

 

[texag14]

Badger Ordnance makes a great modular mount for this setup called the Condition One mount...if you can find one.

 

[LucasTNT]

I’ve been pondering the same using 45 degree mount. Have a free T1 to try but to me the size of the RMR or DPP seems more reasonable. My light looks like it might be in the way. Really need to try a few mounts to make sure it’ll all work and not have to change head position. Have my doubts.
Some good info here:

Very helpful video, and thanks very much for posting it.

 

[FishinGuns]

From what I have been researching, there are some that are specifically training with the red dot at 45 as a primary CQB sight and transitioning to the LPVO/mid range optic for longer engagements. They touched on it a bit in the GT video above. I’m no operator, but logically, I like the idea.

I personally think the mid-range 2-10/3-12 w/offset red dot is the best iteration of it, but train specifically to run the offset red dot as the primary CQB sight, and not a secondary CQB sight. I would tend to think having both optics at the same height is critical for this set-up likely in the 1.5” height range for good cheek weld.

For a higher mag LPVO, 1-8/1-10, Id be leaning toward a higher scope mount, and raise the offset red dot height slightly. Likely 1.7” height scope mount and 1.93” mount for the red dot. With the LPVO, you can CQB on 1x primarily and mag up for longer shots. You still have the offset red dot for times when you need to transition to short range (coyote hunting, for me) and in those instances, my head is already breaking cheekweld coming up, so the higher 1.93” mount is easier to pick up and more heads-up for a quick snap shot.

Again, just my logic. I plan to work it out in practice and see if it actually works as intended for me.

 

[Halberdier]

I'm going to ask again: Why not go with offset sights, especially the flip up ones? Smaller, lighter, no battery and faster target acquisition.

 

[FishinGuns]

Faster target acquisition? If that were the case, why doesn’t everyone run iron sights and forego the Aimpoint for primary optics?

 

[LucasTNT]

From what I have been researching, there are some that are specifically training with the red dot at 45 as a primary CQB sight and transitioning to the LPVO/mid range optic for longer engagements. They touched on it a bit in the GT video above. I’m no operator, but logically, I like the idea.

I personally think the mid-range 2-10/3-12 w/offset red dot is the best iteration of it, but train specifically to run the offset red dot as the primary CQB sight, and not a secondary CQB sight. I would tend to think having both optics at the same height is critical for this set-up likely in the 1.5” height range for good cheek weld.

For a higher mag LPVO, 1-8/1-10, Id be leaning toward a higher scope mount, and raise the offset red dot height slightly. Likely 1.7” height scope mount and 1.93” mount for the red dot. With the LPVO, you can CQB on 1x primarily and mag up for longer shots. You still have the offset red dot for times when you need to transition to short range (coyote hunting, for me) and in those instances, my head is already breaking cheekweld coming up, so the higher 1.93” mount is easier to pick up and more heads-up for a quick snap shot.

Again, just my logic. I plan to work it out in practice and see if it actually works as intended for me.

Thanks for your comments. They are what I'm reading elsewhere about using a 1.93" height mount for the LPVO. I've had some experience with them before, but in lower mounts, and always found it difficult to use them as quickly as I'd prefer.

I've always run my Aimpoint red dots in mounts that give me a lower 1/3" cowitness, and once I had to use one in a low mount and found the experience to be a real pain.

 

[mrtoyz]

Badger c1 1.7” looks to be vaproware currently

 

[Team RCBS & Bushnell]

I ran an offset RDS on my PCC for USPSA and it got me hooked on doing it for all ARs at this point. The backup part of it if your main goes down is one thing, but it's very difficult to hit a hard right lean shot with the primary I found, and it's makes it fast & easy with an RDS on an offset. Simple twist of the wrist and you can transition back and forth very fast and most offsets seem to have the same height as the primary basically so the height isn't an issue for transition either.

 

[SRPowah]

...and faster target acquisition.

Come again???

 

[Pointman308]

I only use the red dot for fast transitions. If I enter a building or area that I need one power only I dial my LPVO down to 1. It’s already been said that you can also index targets out far With the red dot theN rollover to your LPVO for fast acquisitions.

 

[FishinGuns]

I only use the red dot for fast transitions. If I enter a building or area that I need one power only I dial my LPVO down to 1. It’s already been said that you can also index targets out far With the red dot theN rollover to your LPVO for fast acquisitions.

That’s one of the best arguments for keeping the heights Of both optics the same, IMO.

 

[Halberdier]

Come again???

Have you tried these? I have them on four rifles. I have no offset red dots installed, but the transition from scope to offset sights is instant. Is the transition to a red dot faster than instant? It's not the same as having either as your primary sighting system -- and you have to actually try the setup to understand this. So again, have you?

 

[-=boone=-]

 

[-=boone=-]

 

[SRPowah]

Have you tried these? I have them on four rifles. I have no offset red dots installed, but the transition from scope to offset sights is instant. Is the transition to a red dot faster than instant? It's not the same as having either as your primary sighting system -- and you have to actually try the setup to understand this. So again, have you?

Yes, I have ran offset irons. Listen, I am proficient with iron sights. I plan on getting folding offset irons for my AR rebuild. But calling irons quicker than a red dot? If we are comparing apples to apples (red dot vs irons in the same position), there is a reason why you see red dots vs irons in competitions where time actually matters. You might not feel the time difference, but people see it on their score card.

Have you tried an offset red dot?

 

[Halberdier]

Yes, I have ran offset irons. Listen, I am proficient with iron sights. I plan on getting folding offset irons for my AR rebuild. But calling irons quicker than a red dot? If we are comparing apples to apples (red dot vs irons in the same position), there is a reason why you see red dots vs irons in competitions where time actually matters. You might not feel the time difference, but people see it on their score card.

Have you tried an offset red dot?

As stated above, I have no offset red dots installed. I have no desire to try them either. The offset sights are very instinctive for me. I did try shouldering a rifle and switching to the position of an offset red dot, it required more adjustment than just pivoting.

That's my take on it. If yours is different, you can make your choices accordingly.

 

[Halberdier]

View attachment 7408727

That seems really high. What movement do you have to make to switch, both ways?

 

[-=boone=-]

That seems really high. What movement do you have to make to switch, both ways?

I slightly move my head. Cheek weld to chinish weld.
Yes, it’s even faster than canted 45* offsets.

 

[LucasTNT]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice you've offered me on this thread. I picked up a Badger Ordnance mount today for my Razor III.

Now I'm wondering about the pros/cons of using an Aimpoint T2/H2 or a RMR with it.

Thoughts?

 

[-=boone=-]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice you've offered me on this thread. I picked up a Badger Ordnance mount today for my Razor III.

Now I'm wondering about the pros/cons of using an Aimpoint T2/H2 or a RMR with it.

Thoughts?

Your eye is drawn faster to a circle vs square. I’d have to find the study and post it on here. It was a break down between RMR/ square vs circle/ Aimpoint.

 

[LucasTNT]

Your eye is drawn faster to a circle vs square. I’d have to find the study and post it on here. It was a break down between RMR/ square vs circle/ Aimpoint.

Fascinating, and thanks...

 

[Mike_Honcho]

I would love to see a pic of (both?) an Arisaka or a TRex mounted forward of the eject port and in conjunction with some big turrets.

Anyone know if KAC 34 mm ring caps will interchange with Badger ring caps? Specifically this KAC set up in combination with this legacy Badger Unimount

 

[mrtoyz]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice you've offered me on this thread. I picked up a Badger Ordnance mount today for my Razor III.

Now I'm wondering about the pros/cons of using an Aimpoint T2/H2 or a RMR with it.

Thoughts?

I’ve decided to try a badger c1 as well. Where did you find one??

 

[LucasTNT]

These folks were/are great:

IG Home Page

www.interstateguns.com

 

[chevy_man]

T.REX Offset Mount – T.REX ARMS

www.trex-arms.com

He has plenty of YouTube videos showing how to set it up and how to use it. Kid can shoot.