Advanced Marksmanship After recoil, crosshairs end up high and right

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why?

It is a 300 WM, 12 lbs so recoil isnt exactly "light", is their a cure to it. I keep hearing the cross hairs should return back after the shot but I have never experienced this haha. Im shooting with and atlas bipod, Tab sand bag in the prone position.

Any advise would be great, I always like to hear techniques that I can practice on the range.

"cross hairs end up high and LEFT" sorry, about 2 feet each way

 

[Graham]

You are muscling the rifle. Square your shoulders and establish a NPA.


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[230grRN]

So I would like some clarification on a matter that pertains to the same question. Its been established that the POA should be close to where it was before the shot is fired, but after reading lots of posts I want to know just how close. So maybe someone can answer this.

If one's aim point is lets say a MOA dot, how far off that dot can it be said that you are returning to point of aim. Is it 1, 2, or what ever MOA. I've yet to see this clarified in lots of reading.

I have been struggling with the same issue, although not to the extent of the OP. I'm generally within 5-8 MOA of my original aim point, but can't help but feel I should be doing better. I'm a left handed shooter and I'd say 90% of the time crosshairs end up high and right.

I will say my shooting has greatly improved after lots of reading and shooting and thank you to all those who have offered their knowledge, but reading only gets a person so far. I think I'm to the point that it will take spending some time with a experienced shooter and more rounds, but If I have no one to diagnose the issue it will go uncorrected and become a bad habit if it already hasn't.

Thanks ahead of time to all those that will offer some insight into this.

 

[Infinity]

So I would like some clarification on a matter that pertains to the same question. Its been established that the POA should be close to where it was before the shot is fired, but after reading lots of posts I want to know just how close. So maybe someone can answer this.

If one's aim point is lets say a MOA dot, how far off that dot can it be said that you are returning to point of aim. Is it 1, 2, or what ever MOA. I've yet to see this clarified in lots of reading.

I have been struggling with the same issue, although not to the extent of the OP. I'm generally within 5-8 MOA of my original aim point, but can't help but feel I should be doing better. I'm a left handed shooter and I'd say 90% of the time crosshairs end up high and right.

I will say my shooting has greatly improved after lots of reading and shooting and thank you to all those who have offered their knowledge, but reading only gets a person so far. I think I'm to the point that it will take spending some time with a experienced shooter and more rounds, but If I have no one to diagnose the issue it will go uncorrected and become a bad habit if it already hasn't.

Thanks ahead of time to all those that will offer some insight into this.

Bump, great question. Would love to know the answer.

 

[cornhusker]

I have found for myself a heavy cheek yeild helps to stay on target...With a light hold,the
rifle is all over..I don't mean a death grip either..

 

[kraigWY]

I'm with Graham on this. Your position is lacking, you're muscling the rifle, after the shot you relax and your POI is high and right. You want your position/NPI to match your relaxed state. To do that, you cant muscle the rifle.

 

[usmc02xx]

You are muscling the rifle. Square your shoulders and establish a NPA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1

and to the other question the answer is dead on in a perfect world. if your npa is good then when the rifle returns from recoil it should fall directly back onto the target. now, no one is perfect all the time, but thats tthe goal.

 

[MarinePMI]

The quick check is to close your eyes and relax for 3 seconds or so. If the muzzle drifts, your NPOA is off. There are many reasons a rifle with a stiff recoil may not return to target (bipod, rifle twist, recoil altering your position etc.). It's best to check your NPOA before you pull the trigger, and just because it doesn't return doesn't necessarily mean your position was off when the trigger was pulled, it may be that something has changed since the round was let loose (assuming you had a good NPOA to begin with).

 

[punkwood2k]

The bipod on my rife has a slight right twist to it for some reason.. only a couple degrees, but noticeable when looking for it.. meaning that instead of the feet beinging totally perpendicular to the barrel axis, the left foot is just sligtly farther forward than the right foot.. Would this cause some of the high/right bounce I cant get rid of? Asked another way, how important is it that my bipod is 100% perpendicular to the bore?

 

[Rifles Only]

Negative. Not an issue. We shoot off of all sorts of different rests. Some are improvised, some are static, some are jus plain bipods. The issue is NPA, not being square, not coming straight back on the trigger, or not driving the rifle through recoil. It is a lot to manage, but keep at it

 

[sandwarrior]

One thing I noticed was when you're doing what Jacob says (and others above), the shot will look like you took it with a .22 LR. It's a "wow, that's what they're talking about" moment when you see the crosshairs hardly move on the target. Even if shooting a .300 WM.

What I was told was to adjust into the direction the gun moves. I.E., the gun comes up-right, adjust yourself more 'up-right' on the butt. Make sure your body follows added: straight behind. Check NPA. Be cognizant of trigger and fire for effect (keeping firm behind butt-driving recoil) while noting what your rifle does at that point.

 

[mdesign]

My muzzle of my rifle always goes to the left. I shoot off a bipod and start by pointing the rifle to the target and getting straight behind it. Closed eye/breathing cycle checks, dry fire checks...looks good....send it....muzzle hops to the left.

SW - are you saying I need to move the but of my rifle more to the left on my body or my body more to my left of straight?

 

[sandwarrior]

My muzzle of my rifle always goes to the left. I shoot off a bipod and start by pointing the rifle to the target and getting straight behind it. Closed eye/breathing cycle checks, dry fire checks...looks good....send it....muzzle hops to the left.

SW - are you saying I need to move the but of my rifle more to the left on my body or my body more to my left of straight?

Start by taking your body and moving it slightly left and taking a shot. See how much that adjusts the follow through for you. If you feel your body getting clearly on the left of center of the rifle, move the butt outward on your shoulder (shoulder-left), assuming you are right handed, about 1/4" inch. And if you follow through with the rifle coming up then get a little higher on it. Lower the bipod if you have to get comfortable. Remember small increments. You will watch your follow through come under control better and better each time you start with a position this close. Consistency in building this position is critical. You're getting consistency as each time your rifle does the same thing after firing. You just gotta adjust yourself in.

 

[Bigwheels]

Are you a big guy? Reason I ask is that I'm not, & with my heavy recoiling rifle the recoil is enough to move my body. I will be pushed back around an inch per shot so as long as I'm close to my NPA after the shot I'm OK. I was constantly having to scoot back up after a few shots. I have since added a good brake, & new stock so its much better now but still enough to push me back a fraction of an inch each shot. Especially when I'm on a sloped FFP.

 

[Rifles Only]

Guys, you should be holding the rifle into your shoulder pocket. This pressure is applied with the bicep on the firing side

You should also get a ninety degree finger and press straight to the rear. You should also hold the trigger to the rear until your brain can consciously tell that recoil is over before running the bolt.

And one more thing, maintain the pressure on the gun THROUGH the recoil pulse, don't give up on the gun.
Additionally, it's probably a bad idea to start adjusting your position right and left a little here and a little there. Just get straight behind it from the get go and call it a day.

Getting straight and the fundamentals are covered in the Rifles Only video called the Fundamentals of Marksmanship. The video is available at Rifles Only

 

[mdesign]

I'm not large...5'10" and 175lbs...but it happens the same regardless of caliber. I have the videos and marked out my shooting mat with lines so I can track of square and straight so I think I have an idea on the 90 degree position and trigger finger. Driving the rifle through recoil is part of the problem but it's a lot harder to keep the trigger pressed to the rear than it is with my pistol or carbine.

It feels like the rifle butt is in the shoulder pocket but I'm not sure how to use the bicep correctly. I really have to grip the rifle to keep the finger on the trigger through recoil and my accuracy suffers when I grip it that tight. I agree, it feels like I am "giving up on the gun" but not sure how to maintain the pressure correctly.

I have started looking for a mentor to help me see what I'm not doing...I have to be close and I want to master this.

 

[Rifles Only]

Video yourself and make sure everything is squared up. For the trigger to the shoulders. Stick with it

 

[88blazer]

Spot on Rifles Only... I use to relax too quick, just a split second prior to the recoil pulse fully ending. It was like my brain said "ok, big boom over... time to relax". When I learned to follow through, I stayed right on target every time for follow up shots. True and square and following through is the key.

My friend explained it like this...this is how he taught his son and worked well. Its like your driving down the road and hit a pot hole you didn't see coming. The car slightly swerves unexpectedly. However; If you see the pot hole coming, you know what to expect and what to do. You follow through and keep the car going straight.

 

[kraigWY]

I use to relax too quick, just a split second prior to the recoil pulse fully ending.

Um you are suppose to be relaxed when the hammer falls. Then there is no "falling back" to a relaxed state.

You should have your NPA while you are in the full relaxed state. That way poor follow up wont screw you up.

 

[88blazer]

kraig, I guess is what I was trying to say was I wasn't driving through the full shot and caught myself reaching up immediately for the bolt handle. that and trying to muscle the rifle too much. When I figured it out, I was like "thats what I'm suppose to do!" I do understand what you mean about being in a relaxed state when the hammer falls. I have to constantly remind myself to do that.

I'm so glad I joined the Hide. So much I've learned in such a short time. Not to mention, so much to learn as well! A lot of knowledge on this site!

 

[Mike_Honcho]

My encouragement is to go back and re-read Sandwarrior's comments. Since some of us process info differently, I will restate what SW said in terms that I relate to better: In recoil, the rifle moves in the direction of the forces that are applied to it. Therefore if the crosshair ended up high and left, it is the result of excess downward force as well as force applied from the right. Think of it as what forces are in play as the rifle 'bounces' off of a hard surface - what force vectors caused it to travel in the direction that it did?

Things that help:

A) Re-Read Jacob's (RiflesOnly) comments / watch the vid / become a part of online training / attend a class
B) Contact Chuck and get an IOTA http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../66789-i-o-t-indoor-optical-training-aid.html - allows for indoor practice. The IOTA gives you pretty good feedback on half of the equation - the force inputs that you are applying to the shot through the moment of trigger pull. The primary thing I am looking for when I use the IOTA is - did the cross hair jump at the moment I broke the trigger? A more refined version of practice once the jump is eliminated - did the reticle wiggle at the trigger break and then settle back on POA (wiggle = the stadia width sliding around on the POA and then settling back on POA)? With IOTA my goal is to completely eliminate even the wiggle. Ain't so bad with a bolt gun, but I often have a very slight wiggle with an SR25 - probably that 'awesome' 3 stage trigger it came with.
C) Shoot your .22lr - while the IOTA is good, a .22LR is worlds apart. Now you are using something with just enough recoil to reveal any deficiencies in your position, but not enough recoil to induce flinch / allow one to justify any reason for something less than perfection with each shot. You want to use a POA that is right about the size of the cross hair. At the break you should see the crosshair on the POA, you should know that recoil is occurring, you should watch the crosshair remain on POA through the recoil impulse, and when the recoil impulse subsides - you should still be on POA. If doesn't happen exactly like that - it is on you. There are no excuses. When it all comes together it is like feeling a golfball compress and leap off the club face, or a ski reverse camber and accelerate you out of a turn - you KNOW it was perfect.

 

[Cdiver0109]

Guys, you should be holding the rifle into your shoulder pocket. This pressure is applied with the bicep on the firing side

You should also get a ninety degree finger and press straight to the rear. You should also hold the trigger to the rear until your brain can consciously tell that recoil is over before running the bolt.

And one more thing, maintain the pressure on the gun THROUGH the recoil pulse, don't give up on the gun.
Additionally, it's probably a bad idea to start adjusting your position right and left a little here and a little there. Just get straight behind it from the get go and call it a day.

Getting straight and the fundamentals are covered in the Rifles Only video called the Fundamentals of Marksmanship. The video is available at Rifles Only

Earlier today was the first time I've read this about applying pressure to the rifle with your bicep. I was under the impression that in the prone position the shooter was to relax all muscular tension and rely solely bone and artificial support. I attempted this technique earlier this afternoon and instead of the rifle recoil ending high and left; the retical ended high and right. Maybe I was applying too much pressure with my firing side bicep? I'd be very interested to hear this technique described in more detail.

On a side note while at the range today I used a technique by Jacob in a similar thread where he described instructing a client to place his support hand parallel with the rifle when firing. This in fact did make a positive difference. Instead of being high left, my poa now is dead center and slightly less high. Thanks to all you fellas for all the help and guidance. I love this Damn site!

 

[M40_A1]

Natural Point of Aim is simply where the rifle wants to point naturally, with no muscle tension affecting it. You can find a perfect NPA for any given position and still have the sights recover off target after the shot. NPA is not the end all answer.

Where the sights settle after the shot does not necessarily have anything to do with NPA, especially with heavier recoiling rifles. Where the sights settle, assuming a perfect NPA, has more to do with your position, but not exclusively. Heavy recoil is more likely to upset your position than light recoil. The heavier the recoil, the more important it is to have a solid position that will absorb the recoil while affecting your position as little as possible. At some point, a rifle having sufficient recoil will upset even the most solid of positions, unless you're built like Jabba the Hutt. This is separate from NPA.