Against the grain?

[QuarterHorse]

So I've decided I'm going to get an AI for my first "precision" rifle and am in the midst of savings, getting through paying taxes for the business etc... before making the dive to buy one. I'll more than likely end up attempting to get a decent deal on a used AT and barrel it to my liking later or hope one comes barreled to my liking. At any rate this is my plan.

Getting back to the post I've found a few used optics to start out with. I say start out with as I'm certain as I get more time looking through glass at matches (my goal) and just more time behind the trigger it's quite possible I'll just want the upgrade anyway. This being said, is there some unwritten rule, or, will I be mocked out of a match by showing up with an AIAT with something like a Burris XTR II on top of it?

I know, who cares, and I think deep down that's my thought process. It's my money, and if someone wants to sponsor (being facetious) me I'll gladly take their scope as to not "clash" with an AI rifle and anything other than a Kahles/S&B etc... on the top of it.

Maybe it's just me being stir crazy but I thought why not ask the question. If I get out west to some matches I'll be "that guy" with the AT topped with the XTRII so come say "hey" and laugh.

 

[doctordoctor]

It's not a beauty contest. You're there to have fun. Who cares what scope you have on it. I took a course once years ago. I waxs the only guy there with a factory Rem 700 rifle.... The rest were all custom. I won the mini competition we had. I wasn't embarrassed by my equipment, don't be

 

[BurnOut]

Like the others have said, you do you, man... nearly everyone on nearly any firing line has been in a position of "run what ya brung" at one point or another, and there isn't a bit of shame in it. Go, have fun, learn what you like & why you like it... that's what the hobby is all about.

 

[Bandit320]

I recently shoot in our clubs distance competition with a Savage Axis (customized) and a Cabelas scope. Lots of fancy guns and scopes being shot over the two day event. Out of 114 shooters only two shoot further. Don’t be embarrassed and have fun.

 

[Huskydriver]

I would take a vortex gen 2 razor over the Burris xtr any day just my 2 cents. They go used on here all the time for 1800 best bang for your buck imo

 

[021411]

No need to please anyone but yourself. I could give two shits about what other people think. I show up to ranges with a cheap ass Voodoo Tactical bag and pull out my $6000 stick. Anyone that rolls their eyes can go fuck themselves.

 

[Huskydriver]

No need to please anyone but yourself. I could give two shits about what other people think. I show up to ranges with a cheap ass Voodoo Tactical bag and pull out my $6000 stick. Anyone that rolls their eyes can go fuck themselves.

Voodoo tactical is operator as hell man

 

[QuarterHorse]

Much appreciated. I think I just felt the need to post, as I stated earlier, who cares it's my money, I was just thinking out loud I suppose and had posting withdraws.

As far as the "I'd get a used XXX" goes, I've found the used Burris for 6-800 bones. I can't find a better deal on a used optic for what seems to be decent enough for doing what I'm doing. In all my years of shooting I've never once had anyone volunteer to stand down range of me, not even with a $300 Savage Mod 10 chambered in, *gasp* .308!? haha.

….and to address again, a used "something higher end" will be in the future, but for now...….

Thanks again all

 

[PBWalsh]

I have a used SWFA 5-20 on mine. One day I may can get “tier 1” glass, but this one works great.

Get what you can afford, shoot the piss out of it, be confident in yourself, and forget about the haters. Also now rocking a PIG-0311 tripod and a DIY hog saddle type head, yeah I do not care what others think.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I'd rather have a $4K optic on a $1K rifle than a $1K optic on a $4K rifle, but that's me. You're getting more (and more noticeable) performance and reliability out of the more expensive than you are the more expensive rifle.

 

[QuarterHorse]

I'd rather have a $4K optic on a $1K rifle than a $1K optic on a $4K rifle, but that's me. You're getting more (and more noticeable) performance and reliability out of the more expensive than you are the more expensive rifle.

I never said stopping at the 1k dollar optic, quite the opposite, I said starting. That's cool though, we all have our opinions and I appreciate the input.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I agree if you have a budget cap, spend more on the optic and less on the rifle.

If you are planning on upgrading in the near future, then go for it. I just purchased an AT and wish I would have just started out with one after going through quite a few customs. But it’s also nice to have the others to compare and appreciate what I have now.

 

[MarinePMI]

I have a used SWFA 5-20 on mine. One day I may can get “tier 1” glass, but this one works great.

Get what you can afford, shoot the piss out of it, be confident in yourself, and forget about the haters. Also now tocking a PIG-0311 tripod and a DIY hog saddle type head, yeah I do not care what others think.

View attachment 6993055

This^^^^

I did the same with my AT. I upgraded later, but the SWFA did not hold me back at all.

Edit: Here’s a picture of my AT sporting an SWFA at Snipers Hide Cup 2015. The scope certainly tracked better than I did (it was my first national level match). Talk about a way to bust your cherry in this sport...lots of humble pie that weekend.

 

[300ATT]

Nobody cares what optic you bring; however, if everyone else on your squad is shooting suppressed and you’re not ....

 

[jim996]

I just bought an AI AX but managed to get the S&B PM2 Scope second hand for £1600 vs £2900 new. Depends how long you have to wait for one to come up for sale.

The other option is just buy what you want but put half the price on a zero percent credit card deal for 18 months and pay it off. You will get what you want and it will be cheaper in the long run because you won't lose money trading up the cheaper scopes over time....

 

[NateVA]

Nobody cares what optic you bring; however, if everyone else on your squad is shooting suppressed and you’re not ....

This.

In all seriousness though if you're planning on upgrading in the near future then I'd definitely just get the AT and go from there. I've found it's easier to move on from an optic than it is to move on from a rifle.

 

[QuarterHorse]

Thanks again all

 

[bab029]

This.

In all seriousness though if you're planning on upgrading in the near future then I'd definitely just get the AT and go from there. I've found it's easier to move on from an optic than it is to move on from a rifle.

I agree.

With everyone out here prancing about with their Khales and Tangent Thetas, It's easy to lose sight of the fact that an XTRII is not a shit optic. Believe it or not, you can see through them.

You'll love the AT. Make it happen.

 

[Primus]

Spend the money on a top tier scope and then pick out a decent rifle like the John Hancock, Tikka tac , seekins havak,ECT. No reason to waste money on an AT. With the Hancock you get cheap, user replaceable barrels. Put the money Into the best glass you can afford.

 

[VegasHKShooter]

My shooting partner made this observation JUST yesterday: “Don’t be too tied up in your gear. Don’t be impressed if you’re rocking an AI with a NF ATACR 5-25 H59, and an Atlas bi-pod. The guy that’s running the Cadex gun with the Tangent Theta isn’t going to be impressed with your “basic” gear. When they will take notice is when you’re shooting well, or beating them with your “basic” gear!”
That is the truth in a nutshell. No matter WHAT we run, it’s only shit hot if we can shoot it well!!!
We used to say in the horse show/cutting world: beware of the guy that rolls up with an older trailer, and jumps out one horse. He’s probably put plenty of miles on that horse, and knows how to ride him.
Same applies to guns. Beware of the guy that only has one gun, he can probably use it.
Get WHAT you can WHEN you can, but train always!!

 

[fdkay]

Much appreciated. I think I just felt the need to post, as I stated earlier, who cares it's my money, I was just thinking out loud I suppose and had posting withdraws.

As far as the "I'd get a used XXX" goes, I've found the used Burris for 6-800 bones. I can't find a better deal on a used optic for what seems to be decent enough for doing what I'm doing. In all my years of shooting I've never once had anyone volunteer to stand down range of me, not even with a $300 Savage Mod 10 chambered in, *gasp* .308!? haha.

….and to address again, a used "something higher end" will be in the future, but for now...….

Thanks again all

Right this very minute, Midway has the PST II 3-15 on sale for less than 700 bucks. I don't think you can beat that anywhere.

 

[308pirate]

however, if everyone else on your squad is shooting suppressed and you’re not ....

I guess they'll have to double up on ear pro

 

[Primus]

Nightforce has aids for reticles. I would take a gen 2 razor over anything they offer.

Lol love the dumb ass statements about vortex when people clearly don't understand the differences between a $150 chicom scope and a $2500 top of the line Optic. It's an apples to lamp post comparison. When nightforce starts playing in the sub $300 range, then we can talk.

And the irony is, vortex's $300 scopes still have better reticles than nightforce $3500 scopes.

There are more than a handful of NF optics that have failed, they are no different than any of the other high end optics companies. Their reputation for durrabillity was built when the only other game in town was leuepold garbage. Everyone high end was shooting S&B and premier. Today they are no different , in fact their pricing is kind of shitty compared to their offerings/value. Still can't make a quality reticle to save their lives.

And nice troll account. Created today.

 

[Scotts556]

Are you shooting? yes!!! then who gives a shit what on your rifle. I was that dude that had a gen 2 razor on top of a rebarreled savage LRP. I dont give a shit what people say. It shot fucking lights out. and still does.

Scott

 

[gconnoyer]

The AI is an excellent choice.
If you're using it for normal competition though (where you dont have to deal with treating it as a combat weapon system), I would just have a custom action built and throw it in a chassis or Manners and that will free up your budget for that Top Tier glass.

Not that the XTR2 is a bad scope or unusable, but the glass is TERRIBLE on it. I know they offer a lot mechanically, but I think that you sacrifice a shitload in the glass department for that mechanical build. I've had 3 of them because I've heard people say that theirs is good, or bad, and maybe I just got a shitty one or two. But no, even the glass on my $200 Burris MTAC is better. I've since sold the XTR2, three times over, and am really happy with the SWFA 5-20 for a budget optic. TONS of travel leftover after being zeroed, WAY better glass, and other than a built in zero stop it seems just as mechanically sound as the XTR2

If you are set on the XTR2, I would just advise to pickup a used one so that when you do upgrade (and you will want to) you don't lose money on it.

Look in that 1000-1500 range at optics if thats all you can swing and are dead set on an AI.

 

[FishDr]

and one day it just went black can’t even see through it so I traded it

You good with this?
Was the person you traded it to good with this?

 

[Scotts556]

I don’t need a troll account, and Vortex isn’t even close to the quality of Nightforce, and when I have sent back not just one but all 3 of the vortex scopes that I owned and finally learned that they were garbage and decided to go with a scope that was worth a damn I seen reticles don’t mean shit when the rest of the scope is garbage. Steiner Nightforce Kahles S&B are all far superior not in my opinion but in real life.

And FYI you can pull the big D out of your A
And maybe you won’t come off like such a dick to everyone. Smh never understood people that act tough on the internet.

I wasn’t trying to start a quarrel with you I was simply stating for 2k of hard earned money there is a lot better options than your precious vortex I speak from experience

Idk. I know a few guys that prefer vortex over nightforce.

 

[TheGerman]

This^^^^

I did the same with my AT. I upgraded later, but the SWFA did not hold me back at all.

Edit: Here’s a picture of my AT sporting an SWFA at Snipers Hide Cup 2015. The scope certainly tracked better than I did (it was my first national level match). Talk about a way to bust your cherry in this sport...lots of humble pie that weekend.View attachment 6993259

Somebody needs to wrap their candycane one more time.

 

[Primus]

I don’t need a troll account, and Vortex isn’t even close to the quality of Nightforce, and when I have sent back not just one but all 3 of the vortex scopes that I owned and finally learned that they were garbage and decided to go with a scope that was worth a damn I seen reticles don’t mean shit when the rest of the scope is garbage. Steiner Nightforce Kahles S&B are all far superior not in my opinion but in real life.

And FYI you can pull the big D out of your A
And maybe you won’t come off like such a dick to everyone. Smh never understood people that act tough on the internet.

I wasn’t trying to start a quarrel with you I was simply stating for 2k of hard earned money there is a lot better options than your precious vortex I speak from experience

You joined today. Clearly you are troll hence the name as well.

What Vortex scopes did you own? How did they fail?

So at $2k what is a better optic than the Razor Gen 2? Most of us have owned most/all of them so if your going to try more trolling bullshit, here is a hint: its not going to work here.

Nightforce fails just as much as any of the top brands. The glass is no better than the razor and the razor has superior reticle choices, eyebox and zoom ratio.
A Kahles 6-24 Gen2+ with a usable reticle (AMR & SKMR2) is over $2K. It also has a ton of CA.
An S&B with a usable reticle (XR gen 2) is also $2500+ and you have to deal with tunneling.
Modern M5 Steiner MILITARY optic while being fantastic optically, suffer from the same issues as NF; shitty reticle choices. They are also $2500+.

The ONLY thing the razor gives up is that its the heaviest of the bunch (Which is remedied with the AMG) and the glass is not quite minox/TT/Heny? quality, but why would it be when its half the price

A modern high end optic with a quality xmas tree that doesn't like like a jackson pollack paining (Looking at you Horus) is a requirement for alot of shooters.

You can pick up a used Razor/AMG for sub $1800, with one of the best reticles in the industry, long proven track record, glass quality up there with the best of them , and the best CS/Warranty/Quick turn around if something goes wrong.

There is not an optic on the planet that comes close to the value you get in a used gen 2. You can get 2 of them for $3200 if you are patient and jump on deals.

 

[Sogan]

I started my AI off with a PST 6-24. Almost everyon had a nicer scope at a long range class I attended but it didn’t seem to hold me back any. I upgraded for better glass and more accurate tracking but once I trued my kestrel my old scope was repeatable enough to work for me for awhile.

 

[QuarterHorse]

Awesome guys I appreciate the responses. I was just thinking if I could get into an AT with good enough glass for <4000 or even <3500 I'd be tickled. I'd even be inclined to just do it before taxes and hold my breath so the deals wouldn't walk away.

 

[502Chevelle]

Have you ever given the Athlon Ares ETR a look. My point would be that it would be a good scope to start with, and when you decide to move up, it would be great on a trainer or .22

 

[QuarterHorse]

Have you ever given the Athlon Ares ETR a look. My point would be that it would be a good scope to start with, and when you decide to move up, it would be great on a trainer or .22

I live an hour from Brownells and travel past it multiple times a month. I was just in there the other day fondling one, it's been on the radar.

 

[NewsShooter]

Athlon Cronus or Ares ETR over the Burris, even the Ares BTR which can be had for under 700 over the burris. Had one, sold it, still have the athlon's

 

[Basher]

Go for the AT. Some people say they're over-priced, but that's a personal call. A quality custom build won't likely do you wrong, and an AT is a complete system, where everything is designed to work together from the get-go. I'm dropping back to just an AT as far as bolt rifles go, at least for awhile. Hard to go wrong with one, if it's what you really want and the chassis "agrees with you."

As far as glass, run what you brung. As long as it's repeatable and tracks accurately, you'll be fine for 95% of the shooting you're likely to do. If you go for an XTR2, I'd recommend the 4-20x, as they tend to get better reviews as far as glass goes. But by all means, run your AT with one for awhile and upgrade when you're able. I'm running a Bushnell DMRII Pro on mine, and don't feel handicapped. I'll eventually upgrade to something else, but until either a good deal or the right funds come along, I'm happy. Nobody will be laughing if you outshoot them...

 

[Primus]

Around northern Nevada Nightforce is hands down the Go To scope, and as for reticles all of us that are going to be shooting a realistic shot at an animal 1500 yards or less there is absolutely nothing wrong with nightforce reticles, you can have a way to busy reticle as well. And I’m not very far from Idaho I can drive my scope right to them if I have that big of a problem but from the looks of it I won’t. But Vortex I did have lots of problems. But like I said there warranty was fantastic. But at some point I figured reliability was far More important. And my nightforces have been far more reliable.

Good for you your a vortex fan but I am far from one, every one I’ve owned I’ve had a bad experience with. I’m glad you have had good experience with them.

And is this how you treat all the new comers?
All I said originally was wouldn’t you rather have a nightforce for that kind of money?
And you could of said no I like vortex better.

But instead you act like a self righteous your better than everyone else dickhead pardon my French, and go on about what you have owned and assume what I have and haven’t owned? Who does that haha

No it's not. I lived in Elko 2 years ago. Shot in Reno as well and the razor was by far the most popular optic on the line... And in the circle of a long range shootets .....just like it is everywhere else in the country.

You still haven't awsnered what vortex scopes you had that failed. Why don't you awsner the question?

You created an account today and instantly started shitting on one of the most proven and respected long range optics, with a user name that infers you are at best a fanboy, at worst a shill. Before you start crying victim, check yourself. I still maintain you are a troll but that's for the mods to decide. Now awnser the question and stop deflecting.

 

[Basher]

You can't compare the PST (either Gen) to a Nightforce (save for MAYBE the SHV). They're entirely different tiers. A Razor Gen2 or an AMG is more equivalent to most NF optics. Your sample pool is too small and not of the same standards. It's like saying a Civic is crap compared to a Lotus. It's a bad analogy.

 

[Primus]

This is pure gold. Guy doesn't know the difference between a cheap PST and a razor. Doesn't know the difference between a shv and a PST. Doesnt seem to know much it appears.

Stop crying. Your name is nightforce1...and you expect anyone to take you seriously when you created an account today, plugging a product ( that doesn't even fit within what you are proposing) and bash one of the most proven LR optics out there.

I'm just calling you on your BS. Everyone else is thinking it, I'm just saying it. You clearly don't have a solid knowledge base ( your experience as you say) coupled with the above factors makes it hard to take your posts seriously.

 

[Primus]

The PST is junk, its overpriced Filipino shit. If you were knowledgeable about optics, you would know this. It could cost $200 or $2000 and it would still be a piece of shit. Just becuase the PST is a shit optic at its price range, doesn't mean there aren't better options

For the same money you could have a Bushy DMR, SWFA HD, SHV or LRHS/TS; all Made in Japan quality optics.

Don't confuse your ignorance of the market with reality.

 

[Primus]

Ok here is a scenario for you to take in if you bought 3 nightforce products for a grand total of around 3k for everything and all 3 items took a shit on you would you continue buying them?

Granted they were warrantied well the two scopes were and I’m pretty sure the spotting scope was but I had literally had enough therefore I traded it away, but all bullshit aside would you continue buying or not it’s not like I bought a 100 of them and only had one issue I bought 3 of them and had 100% issues with them all 3 items.
Nightforce I currently own 3 never had one issue and I own a luepold never had one issue and I own an athlon never had one issue and I own a Zeiss never had one issue.

So would I buy any of the others again? Yes I would
But me buying a vortex again would be like saying yeah it’s nice it’s gonna take a huge shit on me and I know it but that’s ok they will fix it.

You ancadotal experience is worthless.

Statistics, how does it work.................

 

[eklarsen]

Dude you jumped in spouting your knowledge and we don't just take a fanboys comments without the details. You started it and should acknowledge and back out gracefully. Night force is a great scope but it has nothing on the Gen 2 so just stop it and we can get back to discussing other items.

 

[RampedRaptor]

I’m still over here wondering why my $6k+ rifle in a Voodoo tactical bag isn’t good? #Humbled

 

[MarinePMI]

And for the record I didn’t intentionally mean to start this shit show lol I simply asked for 1800 bucks of hard earned money why wouldn’t you get a nightforce, BECAUSE in my experience they have been not just a little bit but a lot better and far more worth my hard earned money. Because idk about all of you but I bust my ass for the money I earn. [/B]

But Optimus Primus took it all wrong thinking I was like attacking him or in his words “trolling” him but I was simply asking I didn’t know Vortex was the only scope in the world worth buying and an opinion was no longer worth having unless you want to get called a fake robot or troller or fanboy and the list goes on and on lol it’s comical really but at any rate I’m over this post TTYL

Then let it go...you completely lost me when you stated a preference of SFP scopes on a Long Range board like SH...

 

[Sticks]

When doubt get somewhere where you can look through the various optics in DAYLIGHT, not inside an artificial lighted store.

Side by side my Gen1 Viper PST 6-24 FFP has better glass than a Burris XTRII 5-25 (as viewed from the firing line at a 675y plate with the sun at 10:00). That made my decision then and there to skip on it as I was ready to buy one. Edited to clarify - The plate was in the shade, and the sun was high but in front of me a touch.

Side by side my Athlon Helos (low end Athlon that came with an adopted rifle) has better glass than my Gen I Vortex - surprised the crap outta me. Crisper and brighter.

I just dumped 3k in a MPA rifle my ownself and have a Gen I Razor on top. Doing OK for now. May upgrade, may not. If I get my dope right it hits what I aim at and returns to zero.

 

[DJL2]

Dude, worry not. I just did the whole thing as a value proposition myself. I’d love an old school AI, to be sure. However, I’ve loved Sako since the 90s as well...saw KRG doing the SOTIC for extended intro pricing, did that (can hardly wait for UPS now). Could have dropped the same money again on Kahles or S&B...funny thing is, they weren’t really blowing my skirt up. I found an optic in the 2k range on sale and bought that instead (invested some of those savings on a Spuhr ISMS...bought with a .mil discount from Mile High).

Bottom line - I could have spent $9k putting a rig together so the pics would look cool on the internet, but instead I spent a little over half that...and will need to spend the rest on actually shooting it before my skill exceeds the capabilities of the gear. @D_TROS taking folks to school with an XTR II and a .308 is a great reminder that once you get past “good enough” for gear, it’s about the shooter.

 

[eklarsen]

I wonder why Vortex haven’t done a similar if not identical test?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Using current data is probably a better idea.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/12/21/best-scope/

 

[winniethepooh]

Buddly did you get rid of the quigley?

 

[eklarsen]

what can I say, I live in the past I guess. Didnt even realise that was 2 years old... I guess the OP is correct, I will throw out my Vortex now.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Ok here is a scenario for you to take in if you bought 3 nightforce products for a grand total of around 3k for everything and all 3 items took a shit on you would you continue buying them?

Granted they were warrantied well the two scopes were and I’m pretty sure the spotting scope was but I had literally had enough therefore I traded it away, but all bullshit aside would you continue buying or not it’s not like I bought a 100 of them and only had one issue I bought 3 of them and had 100% issues with them all 3 items.
Nightforce I currently own 3 never had one issue and I own a luepold never had one issue and I own an athlon never had one issue and I own a Zeiss never had one issue.

So would I buy any of the others again? Yes I would
But me buying a vortex again would be like saying yeah it’s nice it’s gonna take a huge shit on me and I know it but that’s ok they will fix it.

I’ve had 100% of the 7-35 atacr I owned take a shit on me(true story).

I’ve owned one, they must all be shit.

See what I did there?