AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?

[mark5pt56]

Some great information based on actual experience. Thanks for the dedicated service, valuable things learned in many regards. Hey--just joking here--I was Army and even though your are a Marine, always respect anyone who manned up to serve.

When I first got started, my only "experience" was Remington, why? because that's what everyone had and used. For lack of a better term, the circle I was in was "inbred" in regards to the it's the best, etc. etc. After using and shooting others, I have AI and Winchesters/FN. My last 700(30-06) hunting rig is my son's now and he's want's my Winchester. He'll get it one day but I think he wants me to help sell the rem and outfit a W70.

Gee, being as I only have a high school diploma I don't know if I can comment on this one, but I'll give it a shot anyhow...

USMC units at regimental level and below, unless something has changed since I got out in 2006, do not deploy with a 2112 armorer, including MEU (SOC). If your M40A1 went down, you were fucked as there were no spare parts, nobody to work on it, and would have to be sent back to the USA while waiting on a replacement. There were no "spare" rifles in a STA Platoon; every single one (8-12, depending on the platoon) was issued to a Scout Sniper and every single one was in service at every opportunity. Have a '40 go down, guess what bitch? Here's your SASR, have fun humping that shit.... Maybe they can use a DMR now, but we didn't get those until late 2001 in a Christmas delivery straight from Quantico to Kandahar.

We did not have authorization to do anything other than cleaning maintenance on our rifles. We were not authorized to pull the actions from the stock. Yes, I saw it done in extreme circumstances, but that was risking a NinJa Punch for sure. Triggers and bolt catches failed on a regular basis. Getting sugar cookied on insert or extract, either on the beach coming in on Zod's or by a CH-53 in a sandy HLZ wreaked havoc on our rifles. Our rifles went in for maintenance every 6 months at the longest, and it was rare for there to not be something wrong with them during that service. Yeah, we shot a lot, we used them very hard and if you lock a grunt in a padded room with two ball bearings for 30 minutes, when you come back he will have lost one and broken the other, but we had to baby our rifles on deployment to keep from having them go down. Typical life span of a M40A1 in our platoon was 24 months and in that time, the barrel would be shot out (7000 rounds), have the trigger or bolt stop adjusted or repaired two or three times, replaced the firing pin, spring or both due to soft strikes, have the O-rings reglued on the Unertl twice or more, and one or two other issues would have cropped up here or there.

I have limited experience with AIs, mostly from shooting with a Swiss sniper team in a competition back in '99 and also going through SSAC in '01 with a Royal Marine. We would of course trade off rifles and shoot each others, and I was jealous of the entire setup from the DBM and bipod to the smoothness of the action and the trigger. They ran flawlessly for them including while our M40A1/3s were giving us issues in the cold and rain, all three of them scored very high (a testament to the rifles and their skills), and I became sold on the system. Getting an AI of my own has been long on my list of to-dos that will hopefully be fulfilled by year's end. I have two GAP builds, one M40A1 and one Templar/Rock Solid .260, both of which do a damn fine job, but both of which need a certain finesse at times as well. Maybe I'm not through the christening period on the actions yet...

I could give a shit less about anyone's business model, manufacturing processes, patents, blah blah blah... I'm a shooter who does not have limitless budgets, a garage full of machines, tools and parts, or even the current skill level to do that work on my own. I also don't have the time with 10+ months a year overseas to learn it anytime soon either. I need a rifle that will be thoroughly multi-purpose, accurate, dependable in and out of the field while still having the support if it has problems, and will have the longevity to not only serve me in my passions but also be a legacy piece for my son to enjoy as well. I have found no other rifle that can fulfill that role for me.

Remington, Savage, Defiance, Surgeon, Badger, whatever other fans there may be out there, good on you, but it's hard to deny the facts: AIs flat out run.

 

[Masked]

How about you use your vast knowledge and do some research. You will find plenty of patents on product as well as processes. Do you really think a company such as Accuracy International is comprised of a bunch of hacks in there mom's basement swinging by the seat of their pants? I challenge you to "legally" replicate AI's rifle affordably and have it anywhere near as reliable as they do. I won't even talk about mass production.

I looked twice but not on espacenet.

I yield then - ai is clearly the best gun ever which is why I'm buying one.

 

[10fp]

One company did copy the ai action, very poorly compare to the real thing. On version 2 now and still not as good.

 

[Ring]

This whole thread and pissing match can be summed up pretty easy...

A good barrel on a savage, 700 and a AI will all shoot great....

What it comes down to at The end of the day is reliability....

I have never had a savage as reliable as a 700, and I have been shooting savage since 1993..
And I've never seen a 700 as reliable as a AI....
You get custom bench rest accuracy with AK reliability...

And quality controlled on parts that has no equal with the ability to swap barrels and bolts from gun to gun with out headspacing.

At the end of The day I only have 1 bitch.... Weight... My AI is 22 pounds....

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[Randoman5]

"My AI is 22 pounds"

That's crazy. Don't you run an AE with a Vortex Razor 5-20? What else do you have on it?

 

[Ring]

"My AI is 22 pounds"

That's crazy. Don't you run an AE with a Vortex Razor 5-20? What else do you have on it?

Yhm Ti QD can
And a Harris 9x12

Thats it...

It has the 26" MTU I beilive... WAY overkill..

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[Jhnmdahl]

I looked twice but not on espacenet.

I yield then - ai is clearly the best gun ever which is why I'm buying one.

Those aren't patents, they are publications, and mostly ancient European ones at that. May not ever turn in to patents, or may be so narrow if they do issue that they can be easily designed around. There isn't a lot of IP preventing one from making his own AI-type rifle at this point - the Badger M2013 comes to mind.

John

 

[E. Bryant]

The ai is the best rifle man has ever made.

Aw damn, you edited your post before I had a chance to respond. Too bad!

Don't make the mistake of thinking that one's prowess in mass production can be judged by number of patents or any bullshit like that. Anyone with the slightest clue knows that the real magic is in the trade secrets (think Coke-Cola) and in the seemingly mundane day-to-day detail work (think Toyota).

Page 12 of the 2014 brochure drops Deming's name. Now, most people would need to Google that to have a clue, but those those who are initiated in such matters it says a lot about the company's philosophy.

 

[Masked]

Aw damn, you edited your post before I had a chance to respond. Too bad!

Don't make the mistake of thinking that one's prowess in mass production can be judged by number of patents or any bullshit like that. Anyone with the slightest clue knows that the real magic is in the trade secrets (think Coke-Cola) and in the seemingly mundane day-to-day detail work (think Toyota).

Page 12 of the 2014 brochure drops Deming's name. Now, most people would need to Google that to have a clue, but those those who are initiated in such matters it says a lot about the company's philosophy.

I'm not doubting that and of course -- That's why certain types/processes in regards to silicon are patented...

I took down that post because I really don't want that to be PK and I should have thought about that before pressing the post button.

My gripe is a simple one. I am and will be buying an AI MC...But aside from reliability, there's no draw...No real reason to have one...The only special feature about the AI is that it doesn't go down...And if it does, they stand by the product.

I don't know how I feel about that. I keep spares of everything, even caps when I go to a job, VRM's too because you just never actually know. I don't rely on your assessment because what if you're wrong? That's no excuse for me to be fucked because you were wrong, I should have better prepared. So the no extra bolt, just as an SA, scares me.

Ultimately, the claim is they mass produce the product. Which is possible if every singe part has the same specs but, there's nothing extra special about that mass production.

I could go to Lilja or Bartlein today, hand them a design sheet and say I need 2000 of these barrels within 1/1000s...I want them Melonited and I'd have 2000 of arguably the same barrel on the AI...So the barrel discussion goes out the window.

I could go to Badger with an AI action and say "Fix your shit", make me 2000 of these. While they may not be perfect, they'll be damn dear close...I'm not knocking the Badger, I think it's a good action but, there's nothing extra super secret special about the AI.

The chassis, we can buy all day long...Buy 2000 from AI.

Now, I have that $7000 rifle for $3500 and change...The ONLY thing I don't have is the warranty but, I can do that myself. (1500 action, 500 barrel, 1000 chassis + smith work)

The reliability is the only thing we can't actually buy...AI does a damned good job making that rifle. Nobody disputes that. I'm not disputing that...That's not even a question.

Look at the switch barrel design...As an EE I know for a fact, you already know 5/6 ways to successfully switch barrel a rifle...I know that because it's done in your field, constantly just without the pressurization aspects which aren't difficult to adapt...Is it a good system from a solid company? Yes but, it's easily replicated.

I'm not trying to bitch and moan about the gun...Again, I have a custom 300 WM I just finished building on an AX chassis...I intend on keeping it because I love the Stiller but, I was expecting this tingly feeling, this magical AI that's so coveted by the world...But, once you break it down, you're paying $7k for an action...And a swap barrel design that really anyone can do with some knowledge about fit/pressurization/steel...

I have yet to talk myself out of it...It's going to be my 30th birthday present to myself...So, it's going to happen...I just don't feel the rifle is worth the hype. AI is a GOOD company and they've reinvented the wheel, most definitely but, it's still just a wheel.

 

[Ring]

I can tell you then every thread I have seen posted from someone that owns a 4000$ + custom gun AND owns a AI says they like the AI better...
All, but 1 guy I dont think.

To me... That says a lot..

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[Lowlight]

You can say that trash about every single company out there.

There are no real patents out there, (although I know AI trademarked KeySlot, not sure about the rest)

The rifles were designed in the early 1990s, so any patent would be just about running out and in the UK not here.

The patent argument is complete and utter bullshit. Very few of these guys patent shit. After all the AI was made and designed in Dave Walls garage. It's square because that is the stock he had on hand and it was easier to chuck up for him.

Cost is irrelevant, Tac Ops charges $5k (and has for many years) for a Remington 700 with an internal magazine. You can point to example after example of this stuff.

Really, to date, only American Rifle Company is doing anything innovative in the Action Business. The rest are just copies of copies with slight modifications.

This will be the game changer if you want something different

Bad pic, but different.

All I can say you guys are lucky, I have no problem telling these guys not to stuff to certain people, when you're a dick I think you go do it yourself and not have access to the product you are constantly bashing.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

"Very few of these guys patent shit" is exactly the point I was making - there's nothing preventing someone from admiring the work AI has done, and copying 99% of it.

Badger's M2013 seems the best example so far, and if AI's relatively low cost AT becomes the success I think it will at its very reasonable price point, I think a lack of patents will result in much more direct competition than they have seen to date.

John

 

[cypriss32]

you can say that trash about every single company out there.

There are no real patents out there, (although i know ai trademarked keyslot, not sure about the rest)

the rifles were designed in the early 1990s, so any patent would be just about running out and in the uk not here.

The patent argument is complete and utter bullshit. Very few of these guys patent shit. After all the ai was made and designed in dave walls garage. It's square because that is the stock he had on hand and it was easier to chuck up for him.

Cost is irrelevant, tac ops charges $5k (and has for many years) for a remington 700 with an internal magazine. You can point to example after example of this stuff.

Really, to date, only american rifle company is doing anything innovative in the action business. The rest are just copies of copies with slight modifications.

This will be the game changer if you want something different

bad pic, but different.

All i can say you guys are lucky, i have no problem telling these guys not to stuff to certain people, when you're a dick i think you go do it yourself and not have access to the product you are constantly bashing.

ai at?

 

[Ring]

ai at?

Google...

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[E. Bryant]

"Very few of these guys patent shit" is exactly the point I was making - there's nothing preventing someone from admiring the work AI has done, and copying 99% of it.

I'm positive that there are several attributes of the AI rifle architecture which are not immediately obvious to a skilled observer (especially as it relates to manufacturing processes).

If it were as easy as making some measurements and copying the design, then the competition would have already found success in doing so - and that's true for any number of industries outside of the firearms business.

 

[AEROMechanic]

Google...

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Google what though..

 

[Mirnyx]

Google what though..

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...recision-bolt-action-rifle-balance-power.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...singfield-action-m2-multi-caliber-system.html

 

[Ring]

Google what though..

2014 Accuracy International AT .308 with Plain Barrel

2014 Accuracy International Products - 2014 Accuracy International Info - Mile High Shooting Accessories

 

[vinsonr]

Google what though..

This perhaps... http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...recision-bolt-action-rifle-balance-power.html

 

[Mike_Honcho]

My gripe is a simple one. I am and will be buying an AI MC...But aside from reliability, there's no draw...No real reason to have one...The only special feature about the AI is that it doesn't go down...And if it does, they stand by the product.

I get it - it is soulless and there are only a few (relatively meaningless) decisions about how you can spec it out.

Contrasted with the enjoyment (?) of spec'ing a custom rig - where you spent the time to carefully consider the type of action, the reputation of the manufacturer, the type of steel used, the process by with that manufacturer crafted that action; and compared and contrasted that process, that reputation, and that name - against every other 700 style action. Same for the barrel, the stock, right down the your choice of flush cups vs gin_u_whine Wichitas. You loved it from concept to completion. Then you had to wait for several months in anticipation - making its arrival all the more sweet. When it did show up - you convinced yourself that the wait was worth it and that only the finest can come about by such means.

An AI? Just punch in what you want on the web site, email the skew to a few vendors and shop for the best price, have that baby Fed Ex'ed and hit the range tomorrow.


AI's ain't sexy, they just work; and the acquisition process is little different than ordering a pizza.

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Quick question from a mechanical stand point.

What design features make the AI action more reliable than other actions?

Could you make a Remington style action that is just as reliable and easy to maintain? An example would be the Stiller actions that US SOF guys are using now. It seems like actions with M16 extractors, proper clearances (not benchrest-tight), and more reliable triggers (CG as an example) would be able to narrow the gap.

The other question is; How many of these failures in the previous posted video is because of shooter error? Such as guys running benchrest guns that are dressed up to be tactical?

 

[AEROMechanic]

Thanks guys

 

[JeffLebowski]

Oh, US SOF guys are using Stillers now!

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[redneckbmxer24]

I'm pretty sure stiller is doing actions for the latest MK13 variant.

 

[MetroJethro]

Its interesting that AI only has a one year warranty to the original purchaser. With a record of reliability, why limit the warranty to one year?

 

[AEROMechanic]

Its interesting that AI only has a one year warranty to the original purchaser. With a record of reliability, why limit the warranty to one year?

Wow, the number of trolls coming out of the woodwork is staggering....

ETA: Quite a few gun manufacturers limit their warranties to a year.

 

[MetroJethro]

Not trolling, just an honest question. Some companies offer a life time warranty (Surgeon). While other don't. Not a big deal. I just wondered why. If honest questions are not appropriate than how do us new guys learn anything?

 

[XOR]

Lifetime warranties are misleading. All things considered I'd rather see a reasonable timeframe warranty than a lifetime warranty on gear that is likely to be abused. Basically to do a lifetime warranty the company needs to price it into the equipment cost. If they can't increase the cost of the item, they will cut corners somewhere to hit the margins with the expected warranty claim rate rolled into things. So either way a lifetime warranty is costing the consumer. No free lunches.

When you get a lifetime warranty you as a buyer are subsidizing people that break their gear and want it replaced after they use the hell out of it. Personally, I'll take a shorter warranty on a firearm because anything reasonable that is going to break is going to do it well within a year or so on most items. After that, I'd call it normal wear outside of something really catastrophic. And in those kinds of cases not caused by the user many companies are going to take care of the customer if they have any business sense.

For instance, I had a bum trigger caused by the previous owner on a Sako TRG. It was out of warranty and Beretta/Sako swapped it for me at wholesale cost. This is a completely reasonable expectation for something caused by a customer and typical of many vendors with out of warranty repair claims.

With that said, I can't prove it but I suspect if I had something go wrong with my AI out of warranty I'd be taken care of if it was a reasonable product issue and not caused by user error/abuse.

 

[MetroJethro]

Lifetime warranties are misleading. All things considered I'd rather see a reasonable timeframe warranty than a lifetime warranty on gear that is likely to be abused. Basically to do a lifetime warranty the company needs to price it into the equipment cost. If they can't increase the cost of the item, they will cut corners somewhere to hit the margins with the expected warranty claim rate rolled into things. So either way a lifetime warranty is costing the consumer. No free lunches.

When you get a lifetime warranty you as a buyer are subsidizing people that break their gear and want it replaced after they use the hell out of it. Personally, I'll take a shorter warranty on a firearm because anything reasonable that is going to break is going to do it well within a year or so on most items. After that, I'd call it normal wear outside of something really catastrophic. And in those kinds of cases not caused by the user many companies are going to take care of the customer if they have any business sense.

For instance, I had a bum trigger caused by the previous owner on a Sako TRG. It was out of warranty and Beretta/Sako swapped it for me at wholesale cost. This is a completely reasonable expectation for something caused by a customer and typical of many vendors with out of warranty repair claims.

With that said, I can't prove it but I suspect if I had something go wrong with my AI out of warranty I'd be taken care of if it was a reasonable product issue and not caused by user error/abuse.

Make sense. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I have shot my Sako TRG-22 to death (almost) and Berretta has been less than helpful because the warranty has long since expired. Hence my question.

 

[AEROMechanic]

Make sense. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I have shot my Sako TRG-22 to death (almost) and Berretta has been less than helpful because the warranty has long since expired. Hence my question.

I apologize for the accusation dude, there have been quite a few "rabble-rousers" the last week or so so I was a bit on edge.

Sincerely,
Another new guy

 

[Notso]

Actually this was a great thread until that douchenozzle ericcartman dropped an ass bomb into the discussion.

I particularly appreciated LL's explanation of true Rem 700 actions over "custom" ones. I was thinking of doing a custom build here very soon until I read this. It makes sense that overtight receiver tolerances don't necessarily contribute to better practical accuracy. I don't need a BR gun.

So now the question is to go with a side release Rem 700 action, with a match barrel and good chassis like the Manners or just go to an AI AEII or AW? I still hate the clunky boat anchor AI stocks, but maybe I could learn to love it like you learn to love an ugly child over time

Too bad you can't drop an AI action into a traditional stock like a T-4......

 

[Masked]

You can say that trash about every single company out there.

There are no real patents out there, (although I know AI trademarked KeySlot, not sure about the rest)

The rifles were designed in the early 1990s, so any patent would be just about running out and in the UK not here.

The patent argument is complete and utter bullshit. Very few of these guys patent shit. After all the AI was made and designed in Dave Walls garage. It's square because that is the stock he had on hand and it was easier to chuck up for him.

Cost is irrelevant, Tac Ops charges $5k (and has for many years) for a Remington 700 with an internal magazine. You can point to example after example of this stuff.

Really, to date, only American Rifle Company is doing anything innovative in the Action Business. The rest are just copies of copies with slight modifications.

I don't agree that the patent argument is bullshit...Is it an extra step? Absolutely but, always necessary...Especially in my industry. There's virtually no recourse against Chinese knock-offs atm as, I'm sure Kasey @ Atlas would explain in great detail - Multiply that by 100 now apply a US patent to it...Welcome to my world.

Apple was founded by 2 guys in a garage...They still hold patents...In the EU as well...Just sayin.

I understand that in the gun industry, very few guys patent shit because of the industry, itself -- I get that...I'm with you...I was just expecting something very unique, super special and omgwtfbbq but, there just sits an AI.

The cost thing...Gunsmiths are everywhere. Some are backdoor, some are worth a shit. Most don't advertise or come on here. Just because they don't work at GAP doesn't mean you can't find a back-country OCD Gunsmith that's not capable of the same work for 1/5th the price...We all know that to be true...Let's at least be honest about that.

Please also note, I haven't actually bashed the AI, once...There's nothing to bash. The gun works and it's reliable...However, in my opinion, the only special thing about the AI is the action but, again, opinions are like assholes and we all have one.

Would I be willing to buy the action separately? Absolutely. I'd drop up to 2k on that in a heartbeat because, again, after what people have said in this thread, there is no question in regards to it's reliability and service...

As to your last line...*EDIT* Read what you said incorrectly. Came back and I get what you mean. - I'd never block a customer from buying a product, even the harshest critic...But, that's just me. *EDIT*

Thank you for the knowledge, Frank.

 

[E. Bryant]

I don't agree that the patent argument is bullshit...Is it an extra step? Absolutely but, always necessary...Especially in my industry.

Once again - the real magic in a lot (maybe most?) of manufacturing businesses resides as trade secrets and "organic institutional knowledge".

I hold a few patents, and have one pending. Frankly, they represent very little of what I've done in my career; the really important stuff is either locked up as a trade secret, or is just a lot of mundane day-to-day effort that eventually adds up to something very significant and unique.

The only thing that patents guarantee is that lawyers make some money. That's fine; they have to put food on the table, too. But don't buy into this bullshit that patents are the only measure of innovation, because that should be immediately fucking obvious with the most cursory of observations.

 

[Masked]

Once again - the real magic in a lot (maybe most?) of manufacturing businesses resides as trade secrets and "organic institutional knowledge".

I hold a few patents, and have one pending. Frankly, they represent very little of what I've done in my career; the really important stuff is either locked up as a trade secret, or is just a lot of mundane day-to-day effort that eventually adds up to something very significant and unique.

The only thing that patents guarantee is that lawyers make some money. That's fine; they have to put food on the table, too. But don't buy into this bullshit that patents are the only measure of innovation, because that should be immediately fucking obvious with the most cursory of observations.

Please nobody take this personally...But, you realize that we're discussing a steel tube with a loading mechanism at the end of it, right?

Not a circuit-board, not a server, not a rack-mounted PSU with 1000 components...We're discussing a tube, with an action at the end and a bolt. We're literally discussing the use of MAYBE 4 separate units together to make something go boom.

There are only so many ways to skin this cat...Finite. Not infinite, there are a finite number of solutions to these issues.

If we were discussing an engine or a printer or a copier, I'd be in full agreement but, we're discussing a steel tube, that screws into a "base" that which loads a bullet and makes the bullet go boom.

IDK, quite frankly, if I were AI, I'd patent the living shit out of every inch of that rifle because while my lawyer is making $$$$, he's making me $$$$ on every licensing deal I agree to while he bitch-slaps the frauds...

Licensing sir...That's what a patent guarantees.

 

[MetroJethro]

I apologize for the accusation dude, there have been quite a few "rabble-rousers" the last week or so so I was a bit on edge.

Sincerely,
Another new guy

No worries.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Please nobody take this personally...But, you realize that we're discussing a steel tube with a loading mechanism at the end of it, right?

Do you not read this site? Are you not aware of the many, many teething problems experienced by different actions? Magazine choice, feeding, safety, bolt release, and more importantly how to integrate all of the above. The very fact that Badger attempted to nearly clone AI's action and still can't hold a candle to an AI is proof positive that there's a lot that goes into the design and manufacturing of rifle actions; your repetitive reminders about what you do for a living notwithstanding.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

You guys are having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. He's not going to get it or change his mind, the ignore feature works well.

 

[Mirnyx]

Licensing sir...That's what a patent guarantees.

The only thing a patent guarantees is the ability to pursue enforcement. Licensing may or may not materialize in the end. Keep in mind not everyone with a patent has the resources to defend it.

On another note. I'm curious why the AI action was never patented; Prior art, missed opportunity, or some other reason?

 

[Lowlight]

Probably Missed opportunity, and if you ever met Dave Walls, he is really down to earth.

As noted, he built the action back a long time ago in his garage behind his house. It's square because that is what he had. Aside from that, back in Europe /UK there was probably no reason to patent it.

The talk of patenting this is like trying to rewrite history and go back in time. That was not the mentality of the day. There was no reason to patent it.

There's a bit more than what meets the eye here, and AI has been doing this a long, long time. Everyone knows...

Here is a history lesson, this rifle below was sold by AI in 1990... compare that to ones today.

We are talking 24 years ago this was being built and sold, how the hell do you patent that because today people want to talk about it.

That is the level of ignorance we are talking about.

 

[Mirnyx]

[MENTION=7]Lowlight[/MENTION]

Thanks for posting the old school picture. Would be really cool to see a photo history of the AI products. There's probably some interesting stuff that most have never laid eyes on.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Probably missed opportunity seems accurate, although the patent talk seems to have started when someone posted a screen image of AI published patent applications that have not issued. This shows that they are paying some attention to patents now, and the same reasons for patenting exist today as they did 20 or 200 years ago. I wouldn't say it's a level of ignorance on their part, just that they've learned that anything innovative or successful will be copied quickly if there isn't some form of intellectual property protection.

John

 

[cal50]

Some interesting ideas and comments being tossed around.....

Technology is a great thing and better engineering and manufacturing today allowing for closer tolerances is sometimes counter productive in harsh environments.
The Mosin snipers survived and worked in harsh conditions and the Remington / Winchester served well in various theaters as well.

It makes me wonder if rifles that fail today are from a lack of operator care / training or manufacturing issues and design?

My FN SPR sits next to my Mosin PE sniper and as different as they are the Mosin is about as simple and bomb proof as it gets. Sometimes simple and robust is better.

 

[dms416]

Since we're onto an intellectual property sort of discussion...

Can someone explain the difference between the open TDP "keymod" and (to use Scott Sigmund's words) the "patent-pending AI keyslot". Scott refers to it by name at about 2:05 saying it was brought about in 2009 with the AX debuting at SHOT 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrkhnDs-8OQ

And yet, the "keymod" associated with Eric Kincel has its TDP open to the industry.
Kino Davis talks about it here:
KeyMod Drama

And Eric here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd3NMsimQ5o

So....who's baby is it?...I mean beyond the tactical juggernaut that is the big box store:

 

[JeffLebowski]

Some interesting ideas and comments being tossed around.....

Technology is a great thing and better engineering and manufacturing today allowing for closer tolerances is sometimes counter productive in harsh environments.
The Mosin snipers survived and worked in harsh conditions and the Remington / Winchester served well in various theaters as well.

It makes me wonder if rifles that fail today are from a lack of operator care / training or manufacturing issues and design?

My FN SPR sits next to my Mosin PE sniper and as different as they are the Mosin is about as simple and bomb proof as it gets. Sometimes simple and robust is better.

Sigh..... Do you honestly think the weapons you listed never failed? Don't look at history with rose hued glasses, do yourself a favor and check for statistical data.

I heard all of the blather about how 1911s won wars single handedly and blah blah blah from 1911 fanatics and then I spoke with a former tunnel rat.....

 

[cal50]

Sigh..... Do you honestly think the weapons you listed never failed? Don't look at history with rose hued glasses, do yourself a favor and check for statistical data.

I heard all of the blather about how 1911s won wars single handedly and blah blah blah from 1911 fanatics and then I spoke with a former tunnel rat.....

Figuratively speaking, not literally.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Figuratively speaking, not literally.

You know exactly what I was saying.

 

[cal50]

You know exactly what I was saying.

I am not psychic ......and you completely missed the point, again.

There is sometimes a trade off between complexity vs simple & robust construction. Its hard to compare empirical data of failure unless similar conditions and operations are used. In this case the discussion is of various actions failures in a variety of conditions with multiple operators. The AI rifle is engineered and build unlike any other but others are comparing various "other" systems to the AI and making a case of functionality.

There is no perfect firearm or optic and they all fail at some point.

Simo Häyhä is one of the guys I admire greatly because of his field craft skills , marksmanship and a simple yet crude by today's standards rifle sans optics in -40 degree temps.


As to the 1911 its still a good platform but not the single best choice in every situation, just like rifles.

 

[E. Bryant]

Please nobody take this personally...But, you realize that we're discussing a steel tube with a loading mechanism at the end of it, right?

Not a circuit-board, not a server, not a rack-mounted PSU with 1000 components...We're discussing a tube, with an action at the end and a bolt. We're literally discussing the use of MAYBE 4 separate units together to make something go boom.

There are only so many ways to skin this cat...Finite. Not infinite, there are a finite number of solutions to these issues.

Oh, for fuck's sake...

If it's so simple, then how come every rifle isn't as accurate or as reliable as an AI? According to you, it's simple, and heck, mankind has been building repeaters for over 100 years now, so we've had plenty of time to refine the concept.

Why the fuck do you prattle on about patents and what-not, and then conclude that it's all so simple and already-been-done?

And if number of pieces indicates difficulty, then I imagine it's really quite easy to design a crankshaft, or engine block, or semi tractor frame rail, or any number of other components that you likely take for granted every day.

 

[338RUM runner]

Will someone post a few pictures of an AI bolt from both ends and the side so I can see what is so great about them.

 

[Masked]

Oh, for fuck's sake...

If it's so simple, then how come every rifle isn't as accurate or as reliable as an AI? According to you, it's simple, and heck, mankind has been building repeaters for over 100 years now, so we've had plenty of time to refine the concept.

Why the fuck do you prattle on about patents and what-not, and then conclude that it's all so simple and already-been-done?

And if number of pieces indicates difficulty, then I imagine it's really quite easy to design a crankshaft, or engine block, or semi tractor frame rail, or any number of other components that you likely take for granted every day.

Not but, 5 hours after Frank saying this gun was originally designed AND fabricated in a garage.

/Golfclap to you sir.

Never said it's already been done, I said there are only so many things that CAN be done, a finite amount of ways to make it work.

An engine has how many moving parts? A crankshaft? A semi?

How about a rifle? Oh, that's right 1...Well, 2 if you count the bolt...3 If you count the trigger mechanism.

Clearly if we hit 20 or 30 we could build an ENGINE OUT OF A RIFLE!?!?!?! Holy shit!

Care to try again or, have we concluded with your unnecessary nagging?