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AI AW vs 700 style actions ...which fails more?
- Thread starter 300WSM
- Start date
And the Wright Brothers started in a bike shop, and you make this statement a few posts back:
So, uh, what the fuck is your point?
You, um, kinda missed the point, which is that one can distill something down to single pieces and still have a really complex problem (soda/beer cans are a great example, which is why they are used in freshman engineering course to illustrate this point). And how many moving parts does a crankshaft have? Snicker.
Leave it alone - you're out of your depth. Go back to screwing together some parts that come out of a box that shipped from Asia, unless you can magically show some depth of knowledge/experience in mass production.
Without the pistons, obviously none...
Your claim is that by magical means this rifle is made...That there are "trade secrets" or else everyone would do it.
The action does not make a gun more accurate...It's a means to force a round down a barrel.
If anything, the barrel has more to do with the bullet finding it's mark than anything else on that rifle.
The ONLY thing AI has is a RELIABLE action...That's it...That's the bottom line...And you're making this product seem so fucking complicated and complex it's amazing.
It's a piece of steel, with a hole in it...A pillar with a firing pin guides a mount from which a bullet sits. You click a trigger by which a mechanism engages the firing pin. You have boom.
How much more fucking complicated do you need this to be?
You are over-complicating one of the simplest inventions on the planet by aggrandizing the only part of the rifle that has NOTHING TO DO WITH AI. - Accuracy.
The action does not = Accuracy. The barrel = accuracy.
How many people have replaced their barrels and achieved the same accuracy? Oh, that's right, I actually read the thread so, I know that answer.
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Do you think just screwing a better barrel on an off the rack R700 will be ready to run in a bench rest match?
Is an off the rack R700 is really the same for accuracy potential as AI, BAT, Surgeon, Defiance, Stolle if they all use the same barrel?
Why even make any effort to true a R700 action if it does not matter?
Any GOOD action should be concentric. - Remington's mostly aren't due to MANUFACTURING TOLERANCES.
I assumed, since we were discussing an AI it was understood that AI's level of manufacturing standards would be a given.
You know, since we're discussing Stillers, surgeons et al.
Well, your exact quote was:
Was your statement incorrect? Does the action affect accuracy?
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Within the 4 corners of this discussion, no...We were specifically discussing an AI action which, is manufactured to be concentric.
If you remove it out of it's initial context, yes...But, in it's current context, absolutely not.
Yes, an action can hurt/help accuracy. The BBL is more important but the action is a key part. Threads being off, bolt face not square, lugs not squared, dirt grime in lug recess all can affect accuracy. As long as everything is square and headspace is good then the action should be good to go. It deff has more to do with dependability.
I'll expand on this since, I did actually answer your question.
Within the 4 corners of this discussion, meaning, we were discussing an AI action. An AI action has understood manufacturing tolerances and standards.
We were not discussing a Remington. We were not discussing an FN. We were not discussing any other action other than an AI.
An AI action is manufactured to be concentric, IE, trued.
If you remove what I said out of it's context (IE what we were then discussing) then yes, that statement is incorrect but, we were not discussing a Remington.
Within that discussion, an AI is a trued action. If all actions are trued and we accept that, because that's what this conversation is regarding, than the action has no outside effect on accuracy.
Just like I wouldn't try to sell you a Greddy Stage 2 turbo kit with you if you owned a Volvo Diesel, I would not have an accuracy discussion like the one we're now having about a Remington because there's always the possibility of getting the worse stock Remington action you've ever seen.
MANY of you have replaced the barrel to find no difference in your AI's accuracy -- Why? AI did it right the first time...The action is actually concentric. In the real world, this isn't a difficult task...It takes care, effort and attention to detail, it's that simple.
We true our actions to fix manufacturing tolerances because they DIDN'T do it right the first time...It's just how it is. In regards to a Stiller or Defiance or Deviant et al, the action is concentric and it always should be...It's already true because they did it right the first time.
The fact that a Remington is not means maybe one of you should go over there and refine their mass production, shouldn't you? I don't know enough about manufacturing so...I can't help you apparently...But, something is clearly wrong if we have true an action that should already be trued.
So, once again, within my context, I stand by what I said.
And with that gents, I'm moving on...Jeff is beating a dead horse...E. Bryant is moving beyond the realm of egotistical and Frank...Is Frank...
My opinion stands...If AI ever sells their action separately, I'll be the first in line...Until then, I'm just as happy to order the whole gun.
Good day...Night...Afternoon...Whatever
Masked,
Actually there is more to it beyond just concentricity. Design does matter also.
Some of the actions mentioned still use the R700 trigger and barrel thread dimensions, but are larger and stiffer, which most believe improves accuracy.
Some such as the Surgeon actually have the lug as part of the receiver and the Pic rail is part also so that it is one larger block of steel and stiffer with more of the barrel thread contained within the receiver.
To illustrate one difference in design between the R700 based designs and the AI, here is a R700 custom barrel beside an AW barrel.
Note the difference in the length of barrel shank that is threaded. A keen eye might note some difference in the threads themselves, and which are different than a OEM R700.
R700 = 0.750" vs. AW - 1.260" of threaded surface in contact with the receiver.
Actually there is more to it beyond just concentricity. Design does matter also.
Some of the actions mentioned still use the R700 trigger and barrel thread dimensions, but are larger and stiffer, which most believe improves accuracy.
Some such as the Surgeon actually have the lug as part of the receiver and the Pic rail is part also so that it is one larger block of steel and stiffer with more of the barrel thread contained within the receiver.
To illustrate one difference in design between the R700 based designs and the AI, here is a R700 custom barrel beside an AW barrel.
Note the difference in the length of barrel shank that is threaded. A keen eye might note some difference in the threads themselves, and which are different than a OEM R700.
R700 = 0.750" vs. AW - 1.260" of threaded surface in contact with the receiver.
Congratulations, Masked - you've entered the "pawprint2" zone of circular reasoning and logically inconsistency. If this design and manufactuting stuff is so easy, feel free to do some of it yourself. And if there is nothing special about the AI, don't bother buying one - you don't understand, and likely never will.
Yeah I hate that guy! He is so annoying. I wished he would start worshipping his gear and let his gear be his master... like the rest if us "OPERATORS". He needs to join us.
Sharp pieces of metal with handles on them have been being made since the dawn of recorded history. However once you start digging a bit deeper, there is a whole world of knowledge, science and learning associated with them and a wide gulf between something mass produced in China to sell cheaply on a website, compared to a work of art and skill made by someone who has dedicated their life to perfecting their work. In many cases, the simpler the object, the more skill and craft it takes to make a truly outstanding version.
Being a retired Machinist I see no reason why an AI couldn't be copied given the time, tooling and money. So who has the first $1,000,000 to get me started. PM for deposit info.
Considering the limitations of the 700 I think a more fair comparison would be the FN/Winchester pre 64 action. How many have seen these these go down in the field or during a comp?
I've been out of this discussion awhile. It looks like it's going nowhere. Nobody answered my question as to whether or not a 2 Lug, 90 degree bolt throw, push feed action with the right clearances could be made to work as well as the AI action.
Personally, I'll get an AI when I stop being satisfied with my FN SPR action.
Personally, I'll get an AI when I stop being satisfied with my FN SPR action.
Have fun with the what ifs and the theoretical.
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