AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

[Derrick300]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but I couldnt seem to find it.

Heres the short version.

Ive been looking at purchasing a AI AWSM .338 LM for a while now. Based on a ton of reading with primarily good things to say about it. Accuracy is good, quality is good and its just a very reliable and tuff gun in just about any climate. Price tag is around 6800 - 7200 for a nicely setup package. Now on the other hand im now thinking why not go with a Gap built AICS with a Surgeon action with a similar barrel profile and brake. Im guessing I could save a decent amount that could go towrds a scope. What would be the differences in reliability, accuracy etc... The rifle would be used in hot, cold, wet, snow paper pucnhing, long range white tail you name it. Im addicted to overbuilt bomb proof stuff thats why ive been thinking about the AWSM. Any info you guys could throw my way would be awesome.
I currently own a GAP Hospitaller in 308 and its about as sweet as it gets.
Basically it boils down to what can the AWSM do that the GAP cant. It would be a folder as well.

Thanks in advance

 

[Bacarrat]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

If you have the chance to get a AW, I would go that route.

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I have an AW (.308) and have shot custom 700's, and I can say that the AW is a different animal. It all comes down to what you will be using it for, but the AW is certainly more rugged and a more modern platform.

I've never shot a surgeon and I hear they are nice, but I know what the British army snipers use, and they seem to be getting some success with them...

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I've wanted an AW forever, but at the bat shit silly prices they're selling a 20 year old platform for, I won't have one...

Go with the GAP.

 

[excess]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I am not certain on this, so don't kill me if I am wrong...

I don't believe the Surgeon XL receiver will fit in an AICS stock, at least that is what Surgeon's website says:

"Mcmillan and Manners have the XL action and bottom metal inlet programs available for their stocks.
This action will NOT be compatible with the AICS series stocks due to the increased length"

Also I don't believe Surgeon offers a 338 bolt face in anytihng but the XL:

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/sites/surgeonrifles/uploads/documents/action_specs2.xls

It appears to me that you can't do a 338 Surgeon in an AICS stock - one or the other has to give.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Hmmm you may be right CNC hpoefully someone can confirm or deny this. That would change my thinking pretty quick. Is there an action that would work other than a customized 700?

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not certain on this, so don't kill me if I am wrong...

I don't believe the Surgeon XL receiver will fit in an AICS stock, at least that is what Surgeon's website says:

"Mcmillan and Manners have the XL action and bottom metal inlet programs available for their stocks.
This action will NOT be compatible with the AICS series stocks due to the increased length"

Also I don't believe Surgeon offers a 338 bolt face in anytihng but the XL:

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/sites/surgeonrifles/uploads/documents/action_specs2.xls

It appears to me that you can't do a 338 Surgeon in an AICS stock - one or the other has to give. </div></div>

Sorry,

You are wrong. Call the boys at Surgeon and they have AICS Stocks that will fit the XL.

Thew larger question is what do you REALLY plan on doing with the rifle?

Not sure what the AIAW is designed for and the XL is designed around the CIP length .338LM.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

The rifle would be used in hot, cold, wet, snow, paper pucnhing, long range white tail you name it.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

And possibly some pesky ground hogs and yotes, jus love the ability of the caliber and love the AICS.

 

[excess]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not certain on this, so don't kill me if I am wrong...

I don't believe the Surgeon XL receiver will fit in an AICS stock, at least that is what Surgeon's website says:

"Mcmillan and Manners have the XL action and bottom metal inlet programs available for their stocks.
This action will NOT be compatible with the AICS series stocks due to the increased length"

Also I don't believe Surgeon offers a 338 bolt face in anytihng but the XL:

http://www.surgeonrifles.com/sites/surgeonrifles/uploads/documents/action_specs2.xls

It appears to me that you can't do a 338 Surgeon in an AICS stock - one or the other has to give. </div></div>

Sorry,

You are wrong. Call the boys at Surgeon and they have AICS Stocks that will fit the XL.

Thew larger question is what do you REALLY plan on doing with the rifle?

Not sure what the AIAW is designed for and the XL is designed around the CIP length .338LM.</div></div>

Ok, we are both kind of wrong. I just called Surgeon. in his words Surgeon had to pay AI "a whole lotta money" to build an AICS stock that will fit the XL action. They offer them only when they build the rifle; they are not available otherwise.

So Derrick, if you want a 338 Surgeon in an AICS stock, sounds like you should have Surgeon themselves build it.

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Sorry,

Surgeon has built my rifles.....

That being said.....you will not go away disappointed.

 

[excess]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

No doubt about not being sorry with a Surgeon build. From what I know about Preston and his company, he would do it right no matter what.

 

[RobertB]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Both are great rifles, you cant go wrong either way. Good luck

 

[elkkid3]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Isn't the Badger M2008 action kinda like the AI AW? Just another option.

 

[Kaisersose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Derrick,

Why not go with a GAP or RWS build 338 using a Badger M2008 in a AICS stock. Seems like almost same build with a lower price tag

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Pick up a used AW and have GAP spin up a barrel, best of both worlds

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HuntinAZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't the Badger M2008 action kinda like the AI AW? Just another option. </div></div>

Close enough for me... I had GAP guild me a custom off a M2008 in lieu of an AW, couldn't be happier with it. It's a friggin laser, and saved a ton of money...

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HuntinAZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't the Badger M2008 action kinda like the AI AW? Just another option. </div></div>

Close enough for me... I had GAP guild me a custom off a M2008 in lieu of an AW, couldn't be happier with it. It's a friggin laser, and saved a ton of money...

</div></div>

Is that the SA? M2008?

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pick up a used AW and have GAP spin up a barrel, best of both worlds

</div></div>Or even better, pick up a used AW, see how it shoots, then get a barrel when that one burns out if it is a shooter (I think most AW barrels are pretty great right from the factory, so no need to rebarrel it unless it is worn out or defective.)

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Hugh, it is.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

So it really comes down to Surgeon action vs. AI action and the way that the AWSM. And the way the action is bedded if im not mistaken???
Never really looked at the Badger action, ill do some searching and read up on that for a while.

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it really comes down to Surgeon action vs. AI action and the way that the AWSM. And the way the action is bedded if im not mistaken???
Never really looked at the Badger action, ill do some searching and read up on that for a while. </div></div>

I have 2 of them and love them. If you ever want to make a trip down to Alabama, you're welcome to come shoot it...

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

JRose I do a big hunting trip west of Tuscaloosa in Jan. if im still tring to decide on one ill take you up on that.

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So it really comes down to Surgeon action vs. AI action and the way that the AWSM. And the way the action is bedded if im not mistaken???
Never really looked at the Badger action, ill do some searching and read up on that for a while. </div></div>The AW action is permanently bonded to the chassis. It results in a very rugged package.

Don't forget another big benefit of the AW- end user replaceable barrels. If you have a barrel change kit, you can swap out barrels yourself. You don't need to send the gun out the be fitted for a new barrel. Less down time and more convenient.

I can't say for a fact that you can't do that with a Surgeon, but I don't believe you can.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Man this is tough, there are pros and cons either way you look at it. Its hard to pass up the fact that i could probably go with the Surgeon build and possibly scope it for less than the AWSM. Buttttttttt the AWSM is just bas ass and thats hard to pass up as well. Man this blows

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man this is tough, there are pros and cons either way you look at it. Its hard to pass up the fact that i could probably go with the Surgeon build and possibly scope it for less than the AWSM. Buttttttttt the AWSM is just bas ass and thats hard to pass up as well. Man this blows</div></div>

Better to get the rifle that you really want, than to spend almost as much and wind up regretting not having the "right one". Been there, done that, got 'em sitting in the safe gathering dust.

 

[johndoe]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rifle would be used in hot, cold, wet, snow, paper pucnhing, long range white tail you name it. </div></div>

I would then choose the AI hands down never look back.

 

[excess]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man this is tough, there are pros and cons either way you look at it. Its hard to pass up the fact that i could probably go with the Surgeon build and possibly scope it for less than the AWSM. Buttttttttt the AWSM is just bas ass and thats hard to pass up as well. Man this blows</div></div>

Better to get the rifle that you really want, than to spend almost as much and wind up regretting not having the "right one". Been there, done that, got 'em sitting in the safe gathering dust.</div></div>

SRT is wrong - better to buy both and then sell me your least favorite of the two really, really cheap!

 

[GunGuru727]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

No cons when going with GAP.

My .02 cents.

 

[CHEYTAC]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I have owed both the GAP and the AIAW , based on what you said you are going to be doing with the rifle you had better consider weight and which rifle is more user friendly! I hunted with my AIAW and it was the cats ass the first 30 min into the hunt , after 2 hrs into the hunt it was the biggest piece of shit I have ever toted and I sold it, not because it wasn't a good stick.
As for your question (Basically it boils down to what can the AWSM do that the GAP cant.) NOTHING in my book, I'm not even a GAP whore and as of right now don't even own a GA built gun. But I would go with GA. Why don't you PM Dave Tooley and ask him, he has all the new info on the new AIAW and ask him

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GunGuru727</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No cons when going with GAP.

My .02 cents. </div></div>One con, and it is of no fault of theirs- you have to wait, unless you get really lucky and they have what you want in stock. With an AI, you can have what you want ASAP.

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CHEYTAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have owed both the GAP and the AIAW , based on what you said you are going to be doing with the rifle you had better consider weight and which rifle is more user friendly! I hunted with my AIAW and it was the cats ass the first 30 min into the hunt , after 2 hrs into the hunt it was the biggest piece of shit I have ever toted and I sold it, not because it wasn't a good stick.
As for your question (Basically it boils down to what can the AWSM do that the GAP cant.) NOTHING in my book, I'm not even a GAP whore and as of right now don't even own a GA built gun. But I would go with GA. Why don't you PM Dave Tooley and ask him, he has all the new info on the new AIAW and ask him </div></div>If he's putting the Surgeon in an AICS, I don't think it's going to end up much lighter, unless I'm missing something.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I'm not trying to stir the pot, just get clarification on the below two quotes.

In teh 1st quote you kinda dog the AW platform as being not worth the coin for being a 20 years old.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've wanted an AW forever, but at the bat shit silly prices they're selling a 20 year old platform for, I won't have one...
</div></div>

Yet you have no problem shelling out $xxxx.xx on a build that is for the most part an exact copy of what you said you wouldnt buy,that 20 year old platform! A better choice of words might have been thattheir are economical choices that come close to but are not a true AW. 20 years old or not has no bearing on it. The AR has gained it's greatest popularity in teh last 10 years and it's a 50 year old platform. Is it crazy to pay sometimes $2K and up for one of those?

Sometimes it is what it is.

Again, not trying to bust chops, just point out some info.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HuntinAZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't the Badger M2008 action kinda like the AI AW? Just another option. </div></div>

Close enough for me... I had GAP guild me a custom off a M2008 in lieu of an AW, couldn't be happier with it. It's a friggin laser, and saved a ton of money... </div></div>

 

[ADT]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I think JRose was just saying it's there prices not necessarily that the platform was old or has poor performance.

 

[Chiller]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GunGuru727</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No cons when going with GAP.

My .02 cents. </div></div>One con, and it is of no fault of theirs- you have to wait, unless you get really lucky and they have what you want in stock. With an AI, you can have what you want ASAP. </div></div>

So long as the AIAW is in country...

 

[CHEYTAC]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

By your post it sounds like you want a good all around hunting / target rifle, I would try and find someone with a AIAW and try it out before I bought it,
Going with a Sugeon XL marries you to a minimal 1.350 barrel stub and it will be on the heavy side too.
I will be getting one of the new AIAW when they come out but It will not be a Deer rife for me , that being said you have to buy what you will be happy with

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JRose I do a big hunting trip west of Tuscaloosa in Jan. if im still tring to decide on one ill take you up on that. </div></div>

it'll be here.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I just went through this same dilemma, but after examining at the situation the choice became clear... buy the AIAW.

This is the same reason you buy a Rolex, it's proven. If you buy the custom surgeon rifle, it may be just as good, though in the back of your head you will always want the AI.

Here is some interesting reading about custom sticks vs AIAWs. (Pay attention to what Lowlight says, he has a ton of experience with both)

AIAW actions VS Custom Actions

Also note that you can buy a super nice AIAW for less than $6k... (Tuscon Dave is GTG)

.338SM AIAW $5500

Either way you go you will get a great rifle, it's really a question of what you ultimately want.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Thank you sir, I will sit back and read through these links and maybe ill see the light!!

 

[skinnypitt]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Surgeon built my custom so i am biased but they are absolutely top notch. I was shooting 0.25 MOA during loas development. My first time at 600yds with it i shot a 2" group....I will never go anywhere else for my rifles after doing business with those guys! They are also pretty quick compared to how long you wait from some shops. I got mine in a little over 3 mos.
Best of luck to you!

 

[GunGuru727]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Lets put it this way. What are you trying to achieve out of these rifles wether it be AIAW or a custom action build...accuracy and precision. So with that being said one rifle is NOT going to out shoot another. If you want to save your self some money go with the GAP/Surgeon build. Take the extra $1000+ and put it towards a nice optic. Your not going to have to worry about resale value either.

In the end its what YOU want and what makes YOU happy. Do not let anyone try and push you towards one rifle or another because of there past experiences either.

And no I am not trying to be a GAP fanboy. I just know how stupid accurate my rifle is

 

[srv656s]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I wanted an AW, but didn't like the AI stock. My rifle's kind of an AW in a McMillan A5....

For what you're looking for, and if you like the AI stock, I say just go with the AI.

Shawn

 

[spotswood]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

My vote is for AIAW. I have a 308 and love it.
Gary

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I've never used a Surgeon action, but I can certainly attest to the Badger M2008. Haven't had a single problem with my SA, and it's been a fantastic all around rifle.

Here's my advice: find someone with an AW and spend some time shooting it and, if possible, use it in a comp or field setting. You may not like the feel of the stock, or the heaviness. If so, then you're not out $6k. If you are a fan of the AICS (which I am), then you can decide between a custom M2008/AICS build which will be a bit less expensive, or go the brand name AIAW. Part of the price tag is the name, and if you have to have that name, then just go ahead and buy it. The major point is, try testing one before you buy it!

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROLEXrifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not trying to stir the pot, just get clarification on the below two quotes.

In teh 1st quote you kinda dog the AW platform as being not worth the coin for being a 20 years old.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've wanted an AW forever, but at the bat shit silly prices they're selling a 20 year old platform for, I won't have one...
</div></div>

Yet you have no problem shelling out $xxxx.xx on a build that is for the most part an exact copy of what you said you wouldnt buy,that 20 year old platform! A better choice of words might have been thattheir are economical choices that come close to but are not a true AW. 20 years old or not has no bearing on it. The AR has gained it's greatest popularity in teh last 10 years and it's a 50 year old platform. Is it crazy to pay sometimes $2K and up for one of those?

Sometimes it is what it is.

Again, not trying to bust chops, just point out some info.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HuntinAZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't the Badger M2008 action kinda like the AI AW? Just another option. </div></div>

Close enough for me... I had GAP guild me a custom off a M2008 in lieu of an AW, couldn't be happier with it. It's a friggin laser, and saved a ton of money... </div></div> </div></div>


Don't think for a second I wouldn't love the fuck out of an AW, or that the rifle is not anything short of perfection, I just feel that after selling umpteen thousands of them over the past twenty years, that they've far exceeded their cover of the costs and should be going DOWN, not UP to rediculous prices that they are.

It would be like someone still paying $600 for an iPhone....

I built my rifle for around $3k, and it's a F'n tack driver that has everything I like about the AW. So custom built, scoped, decked out was still cheaper than an AW.

I have 0 regrets....

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I built my rifle for around $3k, and it's a F'n tack driver that has everything I like about the AW. So custom built, scoped, decked out was still cheaper than an AW.

I have 0 regrets....</div></div>

What about the AE series then? Same quality of rifle, at the same price point as your custom rifle you mention. Give AI credit; they've definitely been innovating and working to meet the desires of the market.

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I built my rifle for around $3k, and it's a F'n tack driver that has everything I like about the AW. So custom built, scoped, decked out was still cheaper than an AW.

I have 0 regrets....</div></div>

What about the AE series then? Same quality of rifle, at the same price point as your custom rifle you mention. Give AI credit; they've definitely been innovating and working to meet the desires of the market. </div></div>

I'm not trying to take anything away from Accuracy International, I have long wanted their rifles. I would love to have an AW and AE MKII, and maybe one day I'll break down and buy a MKII... But this discussion was on the AW, and at almost $6k, the price tag is a little ridiculous.

 

[TrapperT]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Well, I went the GAP route with the M2008 action. Reason was is I couldn't justify the huge price tag for the AIAW. But one of the bigger reasons was I could get the barrel twist I wanted for the shooting I was going to do. Here is a link to some of my previous posting regarding this rifle.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...rue#Post1661329

My .02

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Having owned a lot of both...

(Value + Accuracy) / Price = GAP.

And F the Brits for banning Michael Savage...

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

It isn't really fair to compare a Badger 2008 to an AW just because both receivers are square. On of the biggest things you are paying for on the AW is the ruggedness of the receiver being permanently bonded to the chassis. The Badger is still just an action bolted in, the same as any other.

As Jonathan pointed out, a more fair comparison would be the AE, at which point, the price is getting a lot closer, and you still have the ability to install stocked parts and barrels, and can do it yourself if need be.