AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

The badger is not only comparble for being square alone, it's the 60 degree bolt throw, and use of AW mags vs. AICS mags that did it for me.

 

[dmg308]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It isn't really fair to compare a Badger 2008 to an AW just because both receivers are square. On of the biggest things you are paying for on the AW is the ruggedness of the receiver being permanently bonded to the chassis. The Badger is still just an action bolted in, the same as any other.

As Jonathan pointed out, a more fair comparison would be the AE, at which point, the price is getting a lot closer, and you still have the ability to install stocked parts and barrels, and can do it yourself if need be. </div></div>

A little birdie told me of some who bonded Badger actions to AI stocks the same way.

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The badger is not only comparble for being square alone, it's the 60 degree bolt throw, and use of AW mags vs. AICS mags that did it for me. </div></div>The AE also has a 60 degree throw.

I am not disputing that a Badger is a nice action, simply pointing out that it is more fair to compare with an AE in more respects than not.

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It isn't really fair to compare a Badger 2008 to an AW just because both receivers are square. On of the biggest things you are paying for on the AW is the ruggedness of the receiver being permanently bonded to the chassis. The Badger is still just an action bolted in, the same as any other.

As Jonathan pointed out, a more fair comparison would be the AE, at which point, the price is getting a lot closer, and you still have the ability to install stocked parts and barrels, and can do it yourself if need be. </div></div>

A little birdie told me of some who bonded Badger actions to AI stocks the same way. </div></div>Now that would be something to see.

How much does this service cost? Was it a DIY?

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

How do you service the trigger if you bond the BO action? I for one am not obsessive about the action being bonded...

AE does have the 60 degree bolt, but still no double stack ten rounders...

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you service the trigger if you bond the BO action? I for one am not obsessive about the action being bonded...

AE does have the 60 degree bolt, but still no double stack ten rounders... </div></div>The trigger is held in by two hex screws, and is removable for service.

The AE (mk 2) uses AICS mags, which come in 10 rounders. Longer than the aw mags, but still available.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

JRose, PM sent

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you service the trigger if you bond the BO action? I for one am not obsessive about the action being bonded...

AE does have the 60 degree bolt, but still no double stack ten rounders... </div></div>The trigger is held in by two hex screws, and is removable for service.

The AE (mk 2) uses AICS mags, which come in 10 rounders. Longer than the aw mags, but still available. </div></div>


What are you talking about here? The AE or the BO?

The BO uses a remington 700 trigger so you nee dto be able to get the action to push out the two pins that hold it in place. If the action is married to the stock you better hope your trigger never needs to be pulled out.

 

[SwVaGlocker]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

The AW is a rifle made for war, its "bomb proof" it will take a beating and keep running. You can get an AE for the price of the custom and will be a great rifle as well just not as tough as the AW. The custom rifles are great as well, but if you want something you can use as a club as well as a long range rifle the AW is the winner because time and time again mine has proven to me that I made the right choice. It all boils down to what you want out of your rifle.

 

[Derrick300]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Im really leaning towards the AW, it sounds like a tank thats shoots awesome as well. But im sure ill go back and forth a few thousand more time. Thanks for all the info so far keep it coming.

Derrick

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROLEXrifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you service the trigger if you bond the BO action? I for one am not obsessive about the action being bonded...

AE does have the 60 degree bolt, but still no double stack ten rounders... </div></div>The trigger is held in by two hex screws, and is removable for service.

The AE (mk 2) uses AICS mags, which come in 10 rounders. Longer than the aw mags, but still available. </div></div>


What are you talking about here? The AE or the BO?

The BO uses a remington 700 trigger so you nee dto be able to get the action to push out the two pins that hold it in place. If the action is married to the stock you better hope your trigger never needs to be pulled out.

</div></div>My AW. Jrose asked how you service a trigger on an AW if the action is permanently bonded. I answered!

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I was actually asking how in the world you would service the trigger on a bonded BO action.

That's one thing I love about the AI's, the trigger is tits!

 

[bm11]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was actually asking how in the world you would service the trigger on a bonded BO action.

That's one thing I love about the AI's, the trigger is tits! </div></div>I answered, but I think the response got a bit muddled! It has two hex screws holding it to the chassis from the bottom.

 

[savage110]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But this discussion was on the AW, and at almost $6k, the price tag is a little ridiculous. </div></div>
Actually a 20inch AW folder w/ muzzle break is almost 7k.... 6600$ was the quote I got, fucking rediculous if you ask me.

 

[B.Morgan]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

If your only going to buy one rifle, buy the AI. I've had quite a few and when I upgraded to all new ones I sold my old ones for around what I paid for them. They hold there resale very well and changing the barrels a easy if you want to run different calibers. My 338 was bought with a 300 conversion. I've got some short barrels (22" & 24" 338) that I run from time to time. Nothings bomb proof but the AI is close.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was actually asking how in the world you would service the trigger on a bonded BO action.

That's one thing I love about the AI's, the trigger is tits! </div></div>I answered, but I think the response got a bit muddled! It has two hex screws holding it to the chassis from the bottom. </div></div>

Your answers are confusing!

For the record: The AW series has 4 bolts and epoxy holding to the chassis for a PERMANENT bond. The trigger is removed by by taking out 2 bolts taht hold it in place by a strap via hole in chassis. It is not attached to teh action in any way

 

[GunGuru727]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

The question is what does an AW do that a custom build does not?...Nothing. It is just another option.

Do you need a bonded action, no you do not. Take a look at all of the builds around this site and ask the people if they baby there rifles. I guarantee they will say no. It has worked for them hasn't it?

Take a look at the M24's and M40's. No bonded actions and the military sure beats there rifles to shit.

I guess what I am trying to say is that just because they have bonded actions is a pretty bad argument over other builds that do not. I am also positive that most will never see a difference between the two even if they do beat the living hell out of them.

GG

 

[deadly0311]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

GunGuru......

You obviously dont understand that the AW was built as a SNIPER rifle.....the Rems,Surgeons,Stillers, and all those actions werent ever intended to be sniper rifles. The AW will work no matter what, i doubt that your Hospitaller would work in sub zero temps very reliably. The M24s and m40s are "hunting rifles" with heavy barrels and composite stocks. The AW was built from the ground up as a Sniper rifle. Tell you what, take a GAP rifle such as your Hospitaller and drop it from 15-20 ft up onto the dirt, then take the AW and do the same, see which one winds up taking the most damage. Most of your posts that i read are argumentative, and flawed at best. But thats just me

 

[GunGuru727]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Also Savage110 your signature is hilarious

 

[GunGuru727]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GunGuru......

You obviously dont understand that the AW was built as a SNIPER rifle.....the Rems,Surgeons,Stillers, and all those actions werent ever intended to be sniper rifles. The AW will work no matter what, i doubt that your Hospitaller would work in sub zero temps very reliably. The M24s and m40s are "hunting rifles" with heavy barrels and composite stocks. The AW was built from the ground up as a Sniper rifle. Tell you what, take a GAP rifle such as your Hospitaller and drop it from 15-20 ft up onto the dirt, then take the AW and do the same, see which one winds up taking the most damage. Most of your posts that i read are argumentative, and flawed at best. But thats just me</div></div>


I see where your coming from but you cannot say the AW will work "no matter what" because its mechanical and everything fails. As to the rest of your post...Most on this website are not and will never be a Sniper, yeah there are people on here that have served but most are weekend warriors and competitive shooters and any build will do them just fine.

I have never TRIED to be argumentative. I just have my opinion that I am entitled too.

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Sorry but nothing is completely "bomb proof" guys.

This AI chassis of mine was no match for UPS...

 

[SwVaGlocker]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

you broke the outer shell not the rifle

that part is just goes around the rifle and you can take it off via the hex screws all around

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

UPS broke the shell, and bent the shit out of piece you sling up to.
Most of us don't run around with an "extra shell".
Would an M40 or A5 stock treated the same way do better?
Who knows... but everything fails, including AI.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you service the trigger if you bond the BO action? I for one am not obsessive about the action being bonded...

AE does have the 60 degree bolt, but still no double stack ten rounders...</div></div>

The AE uses 10rd, double-stack, single-position-feed magazines, the same ones used in the AICS 1.5 and 2.0 stocks as used by GAP, etc.

The M2008 receiver is, to the best of my knowledge, produced in a configuration to use either the AE/AICS magazines, or the AW magazine. In other words, the GAP and the AE are commonly going to be found running the exact same magazine.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually a 20inch AW folder w/ muzzle break is almost 7k.... 6600$ was the quote I got, fucking rediculous if you ask me.</div></div>

Then get an AE instead. <span style="font-weight: bold">MSRP</span> on the 20" folder with muzzle brake is <span style="font-weight: bold">$4,118</span>.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tigerbikes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">UPS broke the shell, and bent the shit out of piece you sling up to.
Most of us don't run around with an "extra shell".
Would an M40 or A5 stock treated the same way do better?
Who knows... but everything fails, including AI.</div></div>

UPS can break stainless steel ball bearings, if given the chance...

All things considered though, even after taking whatever unfathomable punishment UPS concocted for your rifle, it looks based on the picture to still be fully functional, even if not in ideal shape. Not many other stocks could have taken that level of abuse without complete failure.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The AE uses 10rd, double-stack, single-position-feed magazines, the same ones used in the AICS 1.5 and 2.0 stocks as used by GAP, etc.

</div></div>

Please specify that the <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">AE MKII</span></span></span> ises AICS mags. The <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">AE</span></span></span> ises propriatery 5rd maximum magazines. Unless you come across a factory 8rd mag which is like getting hit by lightning

 

[JRose]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

I was speaking of the AW double stack mags, that aren't long as hell.

What it comes down to is AI is charging ridiculous prices b/c they can (my opinion). It's just like S&B, Hensoltd, etc... It doesn't matter that civilians laugh at these ridiculous mark ups b/c they don't care. They know their government contracts will pay whatever, and that the "gotta have the best" civi's that want "military grade" hardware will allow themselves to be fleeced in order to have it.

There's not a product mentioned I wouldn't love to own, but I am just not gonna bend over, butter up, and take it in the ass to have it.

This is really prevalent in the scope game, new model scopes are now approaching the $3k-$4k range. I laugh.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROLEXrifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The AE uses 10rd, double-stack, single-position-feed magazines, the same ones used in the AICS 1.5 and 2.0 stocks as used by GAP, etc.

</div></div>

Please specify that the <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">AE MKII</span></span></span> ises AICS mags. The <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">AE</span></span></span> ises propriatery 5rd maximum magazines. Unless you come across a factory 8rd mag which is like getting hit by lightning</div></div>

Fair enough, although at this point, since the MkI has been discontinued and effectively can no longer be purchased as a new rifle, the assumption is made that AE = AE MkII in the context of buying a new AI rifle.

 

[FootSoldier]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm you may be right CNC hpoefully someone can confirm or deny this. That would change my thinking pretty quick. Is there an action that would work other than a customized 700? </div></div>

I went GAP with a M2008 Badger action and I love it! Not .338, but a .308. I have never felt that any AIAW had anything on my rig and I saved a nice chunk to use on optics.

If I were you, I'd be talking to Marty at Badger and send everything off to George's crew, and let them work their magic. JMHO.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

Question since it was already discussed in a round about way - what is the real need for / advantage of a bonded action? Yes, I have seen the vids and listened to the spcheel - however the US MIL doesn't seem to see a need. So in the terms of the real intended user - how important is this vs just another take on the mouse trap?

 

[ASU1911]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

The US military will never use something that isn't US made. So the technical advantages are lost on that crowd.

As for the allegations that they are overpriced... They are built for Pounds and sold in Dollars. Of course they are expensive.

Ford wanted to bring the Euro Focus over, but it would have cost $25,000/copy.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
the assumption is made</div></div>

This is snipers hide, make no assumption!!!!!!! Have you seen some ofthe questions asked lately??? LOL

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ROLEXrifleman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SRT Supply</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
the assumption is made</div></div>

This is snipers hide, make no assumption!!!!!!! Have you seen some ofthe questions asked lately??? LOL</div></div>

Point taken

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASU1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The US military will never use something that isn't US made. So the technical advantages are lost on that crowd.

As for the allegations that they are overpriced... They are built for Pounds and sold in Dollars. Of course they are expensive.

Ford wanted to bring the Euro Focus over, but it would have cost $25,000/copy. </div></div>

Regardless of the percentage or lack thereof of foreign sourced MIL hardware, if the US MIL deemed this to be important - it would created domestically.

It makes me wonder if it isn't just a different spin on the a theme - in order to have an accurate weapon, and in addition to quality parts that are true and square - the fit between the stock and the action must be secure. In a MIL context this also means able to withstand abuse. However, somewhere out there is a point of diminishing returns. User changeable barrels is great - if policy allows for it. Etc...

So for the intended user, how much of this is an advantage over the current system?

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASU1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The US military will never use something that isn't US made. So the technical advantages are lost on that crowd.

As for the allegations that they are overpriced... They are built for Pounds and sold in Dollars. Of course they are expensive.

Ford wanted to bring the Euro Focus over, but it would have cost $25,000/copy. </div></div>

What about S&B scopes?

 

[ASU1911]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

What about them? Made in Europe with final assembly stateside.

How are you going to do final assembly on an AI in America? Last time that didn't work out so well.

 

[Lt. Arclight]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASU1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about them? Made in Europe with final assembly stateside.

How are you going to do final assembly on an AI in America? Last time that didn't work out so well. </div></div>

Where does this alleged assembly take place? Personally, I replaced my custom builds with AI's.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASU1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about them? Made in Europe with final assembly stateside.

How are you going to do final assembly on an AI in America? Last time that didn't work out so well. </div></div>

Where does this alleged assembly take place? Personally, I replaced my custom builds with AI's. </div></div>

Premier has a contract to do final assembly of components. Excerpt below:

"Premiere Reticles, Winchester Va., is being awarded a $15,000,000 firm-fixed-priced, indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contract for Scout Sniper Day Scopes to replace the aging and failing Unertl sniper scopes currently used by US Marine Corps snipers. The initial purchase will be 575 scopes at $1749 each for a total initial delivery order of $1,006,250. The government may purchase up to a maximum of 7500 scopes on this contract over the five-year period the contract is in effect. Work will be performed in Winchester, Va. (75 percent) and Germany (25 percent), and is expected to be completed August 2010. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured using full and open competition. The Marine Corps Systems Command, Quantico, Va., is the contracting activity (M67854-05-D-1043)"

However, while the U.S. attempts to buy as many U.S made products as they can, I can assure you there were PLENTY of European systems on the guided missile destroyer on which I served. If you go to the government contract site (accessible to anyone) you will find TONS of contracts awarded to foreign companies. I realize the above post about the U.S. not buying anything other than American products was probably meant in hyperbole, but you quickly realize who has little actual military system knowledge.

On topic. The GAP will most likely shoot inside the AI, but the AW will arguably take more abuse. The trigger is ok on the AI as well. I say ok because I own a TRG-22 and understand what an AMAZING trigger feels like.

Josh

 

[biggame10683]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

learn something new everyday, thanks Josh

 

[sickeness]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On topic. The GAP will most likely shoot inside the AI, but the AW will arguably take more abuse.
Josh </div></div>

Just out of curiousity, are there that many people who can shoot well enough to tell the difference? I sure as hell ain't one of them and I have yet to meet one.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: AI AWSM vs. Gap built AICS w/Surgeon action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sickeness</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On topic. The GAP will most likely shoot inside the AI, but the AW will arguably take more abuse.
Josh </div></div>

Just out of curiousity, are there that many people who can shoot well enough to tell the difference? I sure as hell ain't one of them and I have yet to meet one. </div></div>

I wasn't downing the AI. That was a reference to pure mechanical accuracy. I know the AI is typically portrayed for advertising purposes as a 1 MOA rifle. GAPs are advertised as sub MOA (3/8-1/2 to be exact). I agree most won't be able to tell the difference. If we are talking tool vs tool the edge in accuracy ARGUABLY goes to GAP. It is almost like comparing a custom surgeon to a purpose built benchrest rifle.

Either way, I am in complete agreement with you. I have that "other" model of purpose built sniper rifle...no dog in this fight. Those were my observations based on shooting a few examples of both. MOA at 1000 is less than the front on profile of my chest, so either one will get the job done at distance.

Josh