Gunsmithing AI barrel finish trouble....

Mgordon

Mgordon

Gunny Sergeant
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 29, 2007
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Wellington, Ohio
www.shortactioncustoms.com
#1
Hey Guys, Just wondering what kind of finish AI has. I would think they would have a pretty darn tough finish so that is why I'm stumped.

I was cutting back a customers AI barrel to 18", crowning, threading for 5/8 x 24 and I noticed that just to the left of the barrel shoulder the finish was worn/scratched/chipped off. This is very strange because I use compressed filtered air at 40 PSI to remove chips and oil to inspect the work. Here is a picture below, does anybody have an idea of what would cause this or has this ever happened to anybody else on any barrel or finish?

I took the forward part of the barrel that was parted off and it seems to scratch really easily. Is this normal?

Mark

DSCN5132.jpg
 
#4
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

It's probably anodized.

Edit, nevermind. I thought it said AL as in aluminum, not "ai". I thought an aluminum bbl would be a bit odd
grin.gif
 
#5
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

Did you notice the removal before, or after you cut the thread tennon OD? those fine "angel's hair" chips can cut damn near anything, if stainless, they could work harden enough to remove even the toughest coatings(and are sharp enough) such as Ceramics(Cerakote)
 
#6
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DcN484</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's probably anodized. </div></div>


Wow, I've been missing out all this time, since when can we anodize steel conventionally?

I know of One(1) company who has even pioneered this.
 
#8
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creeter2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DcN484</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's probably anodized. </div></div>


Wow, I've been missing out all this time, since when can we anodize steel conventionally?

I know of One(1) company who has even pioneered this. </div></div>

See my edit.

On a related note though, I have several steel parts on my Jeep that were "annodized", and it was the thinnest, flakiest finish I've ever seen. All those parts are covered it surface rust now.
 
#10
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beenjammin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im with you on this one. My barrel scratched easily also. My GAP Bartlein has been through the same and it still looks brand new. </div></div>

Ha, I hate to say it but that makes me feel a little better...lol

I did not do any other barrel work, the customer sent me the barrel off his rifle and I just cut it to length and threaded it.

Mark
 
#11
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creeter2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You were taken my friend. possibly hit with the Krylon curse? </div></div>

Deffinitely not Krylon, and the guy who made the stuff even talked up the anodized finish.

It obviously failed though. I could scratch it off with my fingernail, but it was nothing like spray paint.
 
#15
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

I can promise its not anodized. Steel in a anodize tank makes a mess...oops
smile.gif


It looks like you had a chip rub the paint a bit and cause the scratches. If it was flaking or peeling that's one thing, but this looks like a chip rubbed while it was spinning.
 
#18
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It looks like you had a chip rub the paint a bit and cause the scratches. If it was flaking or peeling that's one thing, but this looks like a chip rubbed while it was spinning. </div></div>

that's what i'm thinking.
 
#19
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

I would say that the scratches are from the swarf cutting through it while machining. if he wants it refinished that would be his cost you have cut a great thread and recrowned it. I would just mention the scratching to him. do you have to make up a cap aswell? he might have to just get the barrel and cap re coated.
 
#21
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

Been there done that before myself. It's from chips curling off the insert during the turning process. This trick doesn't always work but to cover my ass I always put several layers of tape around the barrel before turning. Offers some protection from the chip riding on a spinning barrel. Hope this helps somebody.
 
#22
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It looks like you had a chip rub the paint a bit and cause the scratches. If it was flaking or peeling that's one thing, but this looks like a chip rubbed while it was spinning. </div></div>

that's what i'm thinking. </div></div>

Dido
 
#23
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been there done that before myself. It's from chips curling off the insert during the turning process. This trick doesn't always work but to cover my ass I always put several layers of tape around the barrel before turning. Offers some protection from the chip riding on a spinning barrel. Hope this helps somebody. </div></div>

Good idea, I think I will do that on all barrels next time.

Overall I think that the finish is pretty weak. I wrapped masking tap around the barrel a few times and placed a bent copper wire around the barrel and used that as a "shim" to place the barrel in my 4 jaw and have a pivot point. There were some pretty bad marks on the finish after I took the tape off. I use relatively light pressure when holding the barrel in the 4 jaw so I don't crush anything and it still marked it up. I also took a metal cleaning rod that is pretty much a polished finish. I rubbed the remains of the barrel that was cut off and it scratched that finish also.

Mark
 
#24
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

Yes, that looks just like the AE that I had Stacey thread. I was in a hurry and told him to not bother refinishing. It looks exactly like that.

img1311r.jpg


This is mine almost a year later with alot of use. It looks much more like your picture when it first came back.
 
#25
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> if he wants it refinished that would be his cost you have cut a great thread and recrowned it.
</div></div>

What type of logic are you using for that? Let's say I pay to get a recoil pad fitted and the gunsmith ruins the finish on the stock. I have to pay because he didn't prep properly or messed up?
Recrown on a blued barrel and the smith messes up the finish becomes the customers fault?
Fitting and bedding an action to a new stock and there is damage to the action becomes the customers fault?
I would think there would be absolutely no doubt the cause and who should pay for it. To the extent that any one who didn't happily just accept something went wrong and fix it for the cusomer should not be doing this type of work.
 
#26
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

And that is why I could not charge the customer for the refinishing. I also do have a whole complete barreled action and hardware that need to be painted the same color, so it was not a big deal.

In the future I will try to prevent this any way possible, but I will also inform the customer that it may require refinishing. If the finish is this weak and every possible precaution is taken to prevent any damage and it still occurs then its just the nature of the beast and needs to be charged accordingly for the barrel threading and refinishing.
 
#27
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

when a painted rifle comes in the customer is told if their might be any issues with marking it to do the work that they want done. if it is just a touch up usualy no one is out of pockes but if you machine a part the finish will be removed like truing an action the face of the action was blued then it is faced now you have done your job correctly and the metal is bare. does the gunsmith have to refinish the face of the reciever for free? some people dont wory about the small amount that is not blued others might want the action re blued and others just want it gunkoted or similar.

The thing is all care is taken while conducting a job but if in the case you have covered the barrel with tape then it still scratches the customer would have to pay the costs of the extra work.

Now this would usualy be discused before hand. we have had customers wanting rifle work done and the barrel had to be machined out and then the barrel set back to allow the correct fitment. this could because of a lot of reasons but the customer has to pay for the work done. if it was a blued finish it would likley have not been scoerd. and as the above poster said he just was happy to get his rifle back with a short barrel and the cap.

it is completly diferent to having a but pad fitted but if the customer wanted a stock cut and it was a composite one where i felt that the external finish might be compromised i would talk to the client before starting and it might be that the stock would need inserts fitted then refinishing then the customer would have to pay for the refinishing.

some people think being a gunsmith is a licence to print money. here in Australia a 308 will likley be $220-$250 Australian fitted and crowned that is $196 to $225 US. Not a lot of money considering the amount of work involved the government takes 10% of the top then reamer costs and associated expenses. then if the factory barrel was not finished well to start with you think the gunsmith should refinish it for nothing?


i dont think so.
 
#28
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

"when a painted rifle comes in the customer is told if their might be any issues with marking it to do the work that they want done"

*IF* a customer is told BEFORE any work is done AND accepts the risk. that's the only time and not what was talked about here.


"does the gunsmith have to refinish the face of the reciever for free?"

If a job is accepted and the smith does not factor in additional costs OR let the customer know this is a likely issue and will cost XX more then there is no problem. If the smith does not then yes, he needs to do it.


"The thing is all care is taken while conducting a job but if in the case you have covered the barrel with tape then it still scratches the customer would have to pay the costs of the extra work."

Only EVER if it's discussed up front. Anything else is dishonest and not legal in the country you live in
wink.gif



"Now this would usualy be discused before hand."

If it's not discussed before hand then it is dishonest and illegal to charge extra.


"..finished well to start with you think the gunsmith should refinish it for nothing?"

Yes, I think he needs to trade within the law and act in an honest manner. If he makes a mistake HE needs to cover it. If you don't like these FACTS then find another job. Don't be dishonest and rip people off because you were too silly to factor additional and likely costs into a job.


"i dont think so. "

You don't feel the need to be honest and legal? Nice.....
 
#29
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AUJohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"when a painted rifle comes in the customer is told if their might be any issues with marking it to do the work that they want done"

*IF* a customer is told BEFORE any work is done AND accepts the risk. that's the only time and not what was talked about here.


"does the gunsmith have to refinish the face of the reciever for free?"

If a job is accepted and the smith does not factor in additional costs OR let the customer know this is a likely issue and will cost XX more then there is no problem. If the smith does not then yes, he needs to do it.


"The thing is all care is taken while conducting a job but if in the case you have covered the barrel with tape then it still scratches the customer would have to pay the costs of the extra work."

Only EVER if it's discussed up front. Anything else is dishonest and not legal in the country you live in
wink.gif



"Now this would usualy be discused before hand."

If it's not discussed before hand then it is dishonest and illegal to charge extra.


"..finished well to start with you think the gunsmith should refinish it for nothing?"

Yes, I think he needs to trade within the law and act in an honest manner. If he makes a mistake HE needs to cover it. If you don't like these FACTS then find another job. Don't be dishonest and rip people off because you were too silly to factor additional and likely costs into a job.


"i dont think so. "

You don't feel the need to be honest and legal? Nice..... </div></div>
I agree with everything you say...However, in Marks defense, he is not a gunsmith operating outside of the bounds of the law or honesty. That was an honest mistake in my opinion.
 
#30
Re: AI barrel finish trouble....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Glock_and_roll</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AUJohn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"when a painted rifle comes in the customer is told if their might be any issues with marking it to do the work that they want done"

*IF* a customer is told BEFORE any work is done AND accepts the risk. that's the only time and not what was talked about here.


"does the gunsmith have to refinish the face of the reciever for free?"

If a job is accepted and the smith does not factor in additional costs OR let the customer know this is a likely issue and will cost XX more then there is no problem. If the smith does not then yes, he needs to do it.


"The thing is all care is taken while conducting a job but if in the case you have covered the barrel with tape then it still scratches the customer would have to pay the costs of the extra work."

Only EVER if it's discussed up front. Anything else is dishonest and not legal in the country you live in
wink.gif



"Now this would usualy be discused before hand."

If it's not discussed before hand then it is dishonest and illegal to charge extra.


"..finished well to start with you think the gunsmith should refinish it for nothing?"

Yes, I think he needs to trade within the law and act in an honest manner. If he makes a mistake HE needs to cover it. If you don't like these FACTS then find another job. Don't be dishonest and rip people off because you were too silly to factor additional and likely costs into a job.


"i dont think so. "

You don't feel the need to be honest and legal? Nice..... </div></div>
I agree with everything you say...However, in Marks defense, he is not a gunsmith operating outside of the bounds of the law or honesty. That was an honest mistake in my opinion. </div></div>


I would agree as well, it looks like this was just a "learn the hard way" type situation. I think after all is all said and done the barrel looks great with a better finish and a nice looking thread protector. I learned about what I need to go over with every customer to cover my butt and making sure I'm not doing the work for free.

Thanks for the help, here are a few pictures with the Blackberry.

Mark

IMG00239-20100111-2206.jpg


IMG00240-20100111-2207.jpg
 
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