Rifle Scopes AIAE optic choice help..Schmidt & Bender vs Kahles

[SNAFU308]

OK so i'm about to pick up a new to me AIAE MKII and i'm kind of stuck on what optic I want on it. I currently have a Vortex Razor HD 5-20 with the EBR-2B reticle and 10 mil turrets. I'm considering upgrading the AIAE is coming with a 34mm one piece mount which obviously won't work with the Razor HD and gives me an excuse to upgrade. High end scopes are somewhat hard to come by here in AUS and aren't something you can just walk into a shop to try. That being said there is a S&B 5-25 currently in stock and available locally (I have also used/looked through several other S&B belonging to friends) It has a P4 Fine recticle, I have also been hearing really good things about the Kahles 6-24 however I have no opportunity to look through one and would have to order without trying one. The S&B is obviously up the price wise and I will get a price on the Kahles in the next couple of days.

So all things considered what would those that have used both recommend? I think the price in the end will be close enough that it won't be much of an issue I don't know what the wait on a Kahles would be but the S&B is in stock with the P4 Fine currently so that is something i'm factoring in....

Look forward to hearing what everyone thinks

Cheers

SNAFU

 

[sib1948]

I would get the S&B, but like the MSR reticle the best if you can swing it.

 

[Roddd]

I have S&Bs and think they're really good scopes. I like the H2CMR reticle the best. I haven't looked through the P4F, but from the pictures I've seen, it looks nice as well. Also, I've heard very good things about the Khales. If you have a dealer that has an S&B in stock, it might be worth asking if they expect to get more in and maybe you'll be able to compare reticles.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I just picked up a new S&B with the MSR reticle. I'm really likeing that reticle. you should check it out

 

[SNAFU308]

I would indeed like the MSR however it is not available for me currently and the S&B PMII aren't generally a stocked item they normally only get brought into store if someone orders one in and are only in stock if they don't purchase it for some reason. FFP scopes are a very small market over here as we don't have the tactical comps like you guys do. The dealer won't be getting more of the 5-25's in stock so i'd either have to go with the P4 Fine or order in the Kahles or a S&B with the MSR with anything up to a couple of months wait.

 

[Darkside-Six]

I would indeed like the MSR however it is not available for me currently and the S&B PMII aren't generally a stocked item they normally only get brought into store if someone orders one in and are only in stock if they don't purchase it for some reason. FFP scopes are a very small market over here as we don't have the tactical comps like you guys do. The dealer won't be getting more of the 5-25's in stock so i'd either have to go with the P4 Fine or order in the Kahles or a S&B with the MSR with anything up to a couple of months wait.

I just bought mine a week ago from here, and they still have a few in stock. just FYI.

very fast shipping and a great price.
Schmidt & Bender

 

[SNAFU308]

I just bought mine a week ago from here, and they still have a few in stock. just FYI.

very fast shipping and a great price.
Schmidt & Bender

Thanks for the link but they only ship conus was trying to buy locally here in AUS if possible to support local business and have a local point of contact for any warranty issues.

I can use the vortex and wait for whatever scope info with to turn up if need be just have no way to compare the Kahles to the S&B before purchasing

 

[Darkside-Six]

ah, my bad, totaly missed that you were from Aus.

 

[Clusterfrack]

I am very happy with the S&B MSR on my AIAE .260. I can't comment on the Kahles because I haven't had a chance to use one.

 

[Falsecrack]

I own an S&B 5-25 w/MSR reticle, and love it. With that said, I've heard only great things about Khales, and doubt you could go wrong with either.

 

[KWilson]

Whereabouts in Australia are you? Safari Firearms in Sydney have regular stock of S&B on hand as do Mialls gunshop in Victoria. I think Kahles just went through a change in distributor but the K624 models are not always in stock given their price tag and overall demand here. I considered one last year along with Steiner and S&B but ultimately went with a March 5-40x56 after using one which was mounted on a rare left hand AIAE.

 

[jakelly]

That 2 year warranty from SB is a deal breaker for me at this price point. I would only buy a pre-2 year warranty SB. How is the Kahles rep in Australia? Just my thoughts.

 

[Timo Turl]

Spend some time thinking about a scope mount. The AE has a slightly odd rail.

 

[SNAFU308]

Whereabouts in Australia are you? Safari Firearms in Sydney have regular stock of S&B on hand as do Mialls gunshop in Victoria. I think Kahles just went through a change in distributor but the K624 models are not always in stock given their price tag and overall demand here. I considered one last year along with Steiner and S&B but ultimately went with a March 5-40x56 after using one which was mounted on a rare left hand AIAE.

Mate I'm up in Queensland, Cleavers and QGE occasionally have them in stock but rarely at the same time to compare etc. I know Stuart and Annie (the march importers/distributors) but there are a few things turning me away from the march. My mate has an 8-80 sitting out at his shop that he doesn't use because it gets too dark above 50-60x except in perfect conditions. I will be down in NSW end of April maybe I'll have to make a detour and stick my head in to see what's there

 

[SNAFU308]

That 2 year warranty from SB is a deal breaker for me at this price point. I would only buy a pre-2 year warranty SB. How is the Kahles rep in Australia? Just my thoughts.

The model available is a double turn non locking turret model so might not be a 2 year warranty will have to check on that but you're right that is something to seriously think about 2 years really is inadequate at this price point

 

[SNAFU308]

Spend some time thinking about a scope mount. The AE has a slightly odd rail.

The AIAE has a one piece 34mm mount with it (not sure what cant it is though) if it's not suitable for what I want I'll likely get a spuhr

 

[Timo Turl]

Yep the Spuhr is one that might have a problem (not allow you great freedom on where on the rail it can be seated).

 

[SNAFU308]

Really crappy pic but it does show the mount coming with the rifle

 

[Clusterfrack]

Yep the Spuhr is one that might have a problem (not allow you great freedom on where on the rail it can be seated).

Yes, that's why I went with:
Murphy Precision titanium rail, bead blasted, 0° angle
Spuhr scope mount SP-4901, -31 MOA (-9mil), 1.18"

 

[Timo Turl]

Hard to see but it looks like it might be the AI mount. That will do nicely

 

[cramey74]

It is hard to beat the AI-S&B combo. It just feels right.

 

[SNAFU308]

OK,

Been doing a bit of running/calling around today with my contacts, i'm going to be comparing a S&B 5-25 and a Kahles K624i side by side on friday, I hope. My mate who is the manager of one of my local gun shops has a Kahles coming in so will be able to give them a good look over.

The Kahles is starting to pull out in front for a few reasons, I can get a K624i with the MSR/K reticle within a week as there are some in stock with the Australian Distributor, I just got my pricing for the Kahles and it's OVER a $1000 cheaper, The warranty of the S&B still bugs me I know people on here are getting looked after but there isn't a repair centre in AUS like there is in the US and frankly despite the unwritten that S&B are still looking after issues past the 2 year mark their written warranty is only for 2 years and that's all they're obligated to stand by and at this price point I really think it should be longer if not lifetime.

At the end of the day it will still come down to which scope I feel is better optically and i'm really looking forward to the opportunity to compare them side by side but at this stage the Kahles is certainly looking like and attractive option.

EDIT: fixed spelling

 

[sib1948]

Let us know what you finally decide.

 

[KWilson]

OK,

Been doing a bit of running/calling around today with my contacts, i'm going to be comparing a S&B 5-25 and a Kahles K624i side by side on friday, I hope. My mate who is the manager of one of my local gun shops has a Kahles coming in so will be able to give them a good look over.

The Kahles is starting to pull out in front for a few reasons, I can get a K624i with the MSR/K reticle within a week as there are some in stock with the Australian Distributor, I just got my pricing for the Kahles and it's OVER a $1000 cheaper, The warranty of the S&B still bugs me I know people on here are getting looked after but there isn't a repair centre in AUS like there is in the US and frankly despite the unwritten that S&B are still looking after issues past the 2 year mark their written warranty is only for 2 years and that's all they're obligated to stand by and at this price point I really think it should be longer if not lifetime.

At the end of the day it will still come down to which scope I feel is better optically and i'm really looking forward to the opportunity to compare them side by side but at this stage the Kahles is certainly looking like and attractive option.

EDIT: fixed spelling

With that price difference my money would go for the Kahles and a nice Spuhr mount.

 

[Clusterfrack]

It is hard to beat the AI-S&B combo. It just feels right.

Nice rifle! I agree.

 

[SNAFU308]

Yeh will post up the outcome..... It will be interesting and several factors will decide in the end, Reticle preference being a big one too, the P4F is the one they have in stock where as with the Kahles I can get the MSR/K which I really like the look of so far. I kind of hoping that I look through the S&B and it blows the Kahles out of the water because it almost seems like a rule to put a S&B on an AI but will it be $1000 better than the Kahles????? People posting pics of their AI's is just making me all the more antsy to pick up mine but love checking out everyone else's set-ups.

 

[Clusterfrack]

SNAFU308, for me the reticle is more important than slight differences in glass. I would buy a Kahles with MSR if I couldn't have a S&B with that reticle.

 

[wvlapua]

The msr-k is imo the best msr reticle design out. I really like the floating dot above 17x and the reticle thickness.

 

[kthomas]

I own a khales 624 with the msr reticle, unfortunately I haven't had a chance to use it yet, still waiting on the rifle that is being built for me right now. So I can't fairly comment on the quality of the scope yet.

I can however say that I was recently in a spot similar to yours, looking at both those two exact scopes. I ended up with the khales. Here was my reasoning:

1) both great scopes (you can't make a bad choice between the two
2) I prefer the MSR reticle over pf4 - I have a Steiner with MSR reticle on my one rifle and wanted to keep it the same.
3) khales was almost $1000 cheaper

I know what I would do in your shoes good luck!


Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

 

[CSTactical]

You would be very happy with ether one.

The 6-24x56mm Kahles are outstanding we have been getting great feedback on them. The new Kahles AMR reticle is very nice I keeping one for myself.

Here is a link to Kahles K624i 6-24x56mm

Kahles Reticle AMR

Mike @ CSTACTICAL

 

[SNAFU308]

You would be very happy with ether one.

The 6-24x56mm Kahles are outstanding we have been getting great feedback on them. The new Kahles AMR reticle is very nice I keeping one for myself.

Here is a link to Kahles K624i 6-24x56mm

Kahles Reticle AMR

Mike @ CSTACTICAL

Thanks Mike,

I did check out the AMR but I think overall I prefer the MSR/K not to say one is better than another just with reticles I think personal preference plays a large role too.

Just checked prices with another local dealer they are selling the Kahles for over $4000 AUD which is on par with the S&B i've already got a significantly cheaper price than that confirmed but that is certainly putting directly level with the S&B at that price.

Mike how do you feel they Kahles compares to the S&B optically? and what do you think of the parallax adjustment on top with the elevation turret?

 

[SNAFU308]

Ok,

So I got my hands on both of these scopes at the same time today. The S&B had the P4F reticle as mentioned and the Kahles I handled today had the Mil4. Took them both outside to get a look through them in natural light rather than just inside the shop, it was overcast so not the best conditions but got a chance to have a decent play with both side by side. Optically I think they were both excellent and perhaps gave a slight edge to the S&B but it's kind of splitting hairs to be honest. The tunnelling on the S&B below 7 was annoying to be honest and was quite noticeable but I was aware of it before looking at the scopes so that may have made it more prevalent than had I not been.

I was unsure of what I would think of the parallax being up top with the elevation turret but after playing with it for a while I think I could become very comfortable with it, having it right there when making elevation changes would be very easy to use once you got used to it. The feel of the turrets was excellent on both and I would be happy with either. I haven't checked the listed weights but the S&B definitely felt heavier than the Kahles although the size of both was comparable.

Overall I haven't made my final decision but I would say i'm leaning towards the Kahles. The S&B doesn't look like one is available in country at the moment with the MSR reticle. The Kahles on the other hand is in stock with the MSR/K in both CW and CCW versions. The price available to me on the Kahles is as mentioned previously just over $1000 cheaper. I was really hoping the S&B would be further in front of the Kahles because AI and S&B seem to be almost a rule however the Kahles really did impress me. The biggest issue for me is availability, I've sold my Remington 700 custom and going with it is my Razor HD as it was cerakoted to match the rifle and the buyer wants both so i'm essentially i'll need a scope ASAP or i'll have an AI sitting here that I won't be able to shoot.

I really like the look of the MSR - MSR/K reticles and I think that's what it might ultimately come down to more than anything....

For those that have used both is the MSR that much better than the P4F??? To me it certainly looks to be a well thought out and practical design.

 

[SNAFU308]

UPDATE:

Just pulled the trigger and ordered in a Kahles k624i CC with the MSR/K availability and reticle choice really came into play and as much as I wanted to justify the S&B after comparing them the Kahles appeared just as good and whilst I had the $ for either having an extra $1000 in my pocket to use on other things sure didn't hurt. Should hopefully have both the AI and the Kahles in the next week

 

[mmcmah]

UPDATE:

Just pulled the trigger and ordered in a Kahles k624i CC with the MSR/K availability and reticle choice really came into play and as much as I wanted to justify the S&B after comparing them the Kahles appeared just as good and whilst I had the $ for either having an extra $1000 in my pocket to use on other things sure didn't hurt. Should hopefully have both the AI and the Kahles in the next week

Excellent choice. I concur. I own both, with MSR reticles, on AIs. Both are top notch scopes, great glass and features. I love the parallax knob on the Kahles, as I'm left handed, but I don't like that it only goes down to 50m. It's truly impressive that the S&B can go down to 10m, which really helps for dry firing indoors. In any event, between the price savings (at least $1,000 here) and the ability to get the MSR reticle, I think you made the right choice. I also think the Kahles eye box is a little more forgiving. You're right shout AI/S&B going well together, but you won't be disappointed.

 

[shadydiesel]

UPDATE:

Just pulled the trigger and ordered in a Kahles k624i CC with the MSR/K availability and reticle choice really came into play and as much as I wanted to justify the S&B after comparing them the Kahles appeared just as good and whilst I had the $ for either having an extra $1000 in my pocket to use on other things sure didn't hurt. Should hopefully have both the AI and the Kahles in the next week

Excellent choice! Report back on how well you like it when it arrives

 

[kenner]

I also agree, excellent choice on the Kahles 624i, I owned the S&B and sold it after buying the Kahles 624i, In my eyes I thought the Kahles was a better glass , and I'm also a left hand shooter and love the top turret parallax adjustment, the clicks are very precise also.
kenner

 

[SNAFU308]

Well picked up the rifle will do some proper pics when the scope arrives but the mount is from what I can tell is an AI 45 min mount can't wait to get the scope mounted and take it for a shoot

 

[Smooth_87]

Look forward to a range report, was in the market for a gen 2 razor but AUS prices are in the kahles range, so will explore all options

 

[SNAFU308]

Man I almost walked out with the S&B today my Kahles hasn't arrived yet and was offered the S&B PMII 5-25 P4 Fine for $600 more than what the Kahles is costing me. was very tempting!!!! hope I don't regret it

Even offered to let me take the one they did have it stock with the Mil 4 for the weekend so I could shoot until my scope turned up, I declined as I didn't want to risk marking a brand new scope just so I could shoot a couple of days early. Although it was a very generous offer

 

[SNAFU308]

Well I just did a complete backflip and decided the price on the S&B was too good to pass up, The Kahles with the MSR/K is still coming into the store and I have the option to return the S&B should I decide to change my mind AGAIN and go with the Kahles and get a refund for the difference. The Schmidt is a damn nice scope though and just looks right on the AI, the 2 year warranty really does bother me though, guess i'll just have to hope that if something is going to go wrong it will happen in the first two years....Will take some better pics when the weather clears up a little

 

[Smooth_87]

Looks great on top, how much did u pay an which shop has given you such great service?

 

[Opticsspecialist]

i would do the kahles personally for what it's worth, really neat scopes there.

 

[CSTactical]

Thanks Mike,

I did check out the AMR but I think overall I prefer the MSR/K not to say one is better than another just with reticles I think personal preference plays a large role too.

Just checked prices with another local dealer they are selling the Kahles for over $4000 AUD which is on par with the S&B i've already got a significantly cheaper price than that confirmed but that is certainly putting directly level with the S&B at that price.

Mike how do you feel they Kahles compares to the S&B optically? and what do you think of the parallax adjustment on top with the elevation turret?

The MSR-K is a great reticle and will work great for most shooter. I really like S&B scopes, I do not feel the Kahles give up anything optically to S&B unless you look at S&B being able to focus down to 10m as big benefit. I have had a few people say it take a little getting use to and other say it feel more natural.

We have the AMD / DTA reticles in stock and more of the MSR-K on the way next week I hope.

Mike @ CSTACTICAL

 

[Clusterfrack]

Congrats on your S&B! The pic didn't work on my Tapatalk so I can't see it in its full glory.