AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

[pazzo]

Can somebody explain why my 168 gr AMax ended up looking like it hit backwards (as well as the right way)?

It's the only bullet which looks like that, out of 10 or so retrieved from 1100 yds. The backdrop was a gravel bank.

 

[doc76251]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

I'd say the one with the tip still in it hit the gravel and missed the steel.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say the one with the tip still in it hit the gravel and missed the steel.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

What do you mean?

It hit the gravel because I missed my water bottle, which I was trying to hit.

Could the bullet have started doing summersaults or something, before it hit the target? It's still supersonic at that range so that doesn't make sense.

 

[donws2]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

That's most likely what it did do. Did the bullet strike lower than the others. You need at least 2700 FPS or higher to get to 1100 yards. You did not state your Muz. velocity but I'd bet your below 2650 or shooting into a head wind. The chart below shows that a 168 at 2600 FPS falls back below Mach just before 1100 yards. You most likely need to push the 168's faster or go to the 175's. They will be better at 1100. Donald

Manufacturer: Hornady Description: A-Max
Caliber: 0.308 in Weight: 168.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.475 G1

Muzzle Velocity: 2600.0 ft/s

Sight Height: 1.50 in Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg
Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 0.0 mph Target Speed: 0.0 mph

Temperature: 79.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 0.0 ft

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 9.039 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07363 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1137.8 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 317 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 269 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 148 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 1570.1 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.253 lb/in²

Column 1 Drop/Windage Units: 1 MOA Clicks
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity (Mach) Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (Clicks) (in) (Clicks) (in) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (Clicks) (in)
0 *** -1.5 *** 0.0 2600.0 2.285 2521.3 0.000 *** 0.0
100 5.0 5.3 0.0 0.0 2419.3 2.126 2183.0 0.120 0.0 0.0
200 2.9 6.1 0.0 0.0 2245.7 1.974 1881.0 0.248 0.0 0.0
300 -0.0 -0.0 0.0 0.0 2079.3 1.827 1612.5 0.387 0.0 0.0
400 -3.4 -14.1 0.0 0.0 1920.4 1.688 1375.5 0.537 0.0 0.0
500 -7.2 -37.7 0.0 0.0 1769.7 1.555 1168.0 0.700 0.0 0.0
600 -11.5 -72.5 0.0 0.0 1628.1 1.431 988.7 0.877 0.0 0.0
700 -16.4 -120.3 0.0 0.0 1497.1 1.316 836.0 1.069 0.0 0.0
800 -21.9 -183.7 0.0 0.0 1378.3 1.211 708.5 1.278 0.0 0.0
900 -28.2 -265.4 0.0 0.0 1273.6 1.119 604.9 1.505 0.0 0.0
1000 -35.2 -368.6 0.0 0.0 1185.0 1.041 523.8 1.749 0.0 0.0
1100 -43.1 -496.6 0.0 0.0 1113.7 (0.979) 462.6 2.011 0.0 0.0
1200 -51.9 -652.5 0.0 0.0 1057.2 (0.929) 416.8 2.288 0.0 0.0

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Don,
My muzzle velocity is 2568 fps (w/ 43.5 gr Varget).

Thanks for the great reply

 

[doc76251]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pazzo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say the one with the tip still in it hit the gravel and missed the steel.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

What do you mean?

It hit the gravel because I missed my water bottle, which I was trying to hit.

Could the bullet have started doing summersaults or something, before it hit the target? It's still supersonic at that range so that doesn't make sense. </div></div>

Sorry,

Most folks I know that shoot back to 1100 are dinging steel which will make the boolets look like the one on the right (water will do that too, normal expansion) . The one on the left hit the ground nose first is what I was trying to say.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Here are some of the other bullets...which hit straight on.

If these bullets are hitting the gravel sub-sonically, would they still look like this?

 

[Urimaginaryfrnd]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

If you are shooting that far you would be better off loading the 190 gr SMK at about 2600 to 2650 fps.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pazzo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don,
My muzzle velocity is 2568 fps (w/ 43.5 gr Varget).

Thanks for the great reply

</div></div>

Was that the velocity of that one round? Or were they all loaded to that velocity and that one bullet tumbled?

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pazzo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say the one with the tip still in it hit the gravel and missed the steel.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

What do you mean?

It hit the gravel because I missed my water bottle, which I was trying to hit.

Could the bullet have started doing summersaults or something, before it hit the target? It's still supersonic at that range so that doesn't make sense. </div></div>

Sorry,

Most folks I know that shoot back to 1100 are dinging steel which will make the boolets look like the one on the right (water will do that too, normal expansion) . The one on the left hit the ground nose first is what I was trying to say.

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

But there is no 'bullet on the right' in the first pic. It's one bullet which is all messed up

It sure didn't hit the ground first...it went straight into the bank 1" left of my Nalgene water bottle

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JFComfort</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pazzo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don,
My muzzle velocity is 2568 fps (w/ 43.5 gr Varget).

Thanks for the great reply

</div></div>

Was that the velocity of that one round? Or were they all loaded to that velocity and that one bullet tumbled? </div></div>


I have no clue. 2568 is the average from my 10 chrony'd rounds which I fired a couple of weeks ago.

Here are the 10 I measured, with the highest and lowest highlighted:

2568
2578
<span style="color: #FF0000">2592</span>
2565
2563
2550
2554
<span style="color: #3333FF">2534</span>
2587
<span style="color: #FF0000">2592</span>

 

[donws2]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Pazzo here's a free balistic site that you can use to model your ammo and see how it will perform. I use it as well as Exbal to double check a load and it's performance. Might be a bit annal but it's free so why not. There's a ton of things that you can do on this site but I use the Trajectory -- Simplified tab mostly.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/calculations/calculations.html

I'm shooting 175's at long range because they had a better BC than 168's. I'm running near 2750 on the 175's. If you can get your 168's up to 2650 then you should be able to shoot them at 1100. It not then you'll need a heavier bullet with a better BC.
The weight and BC are needed to stay super sonic. Good shooting, Donald

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Thanks again Donald!

I've been using the JBM (range cards) for quite some time. Although I'll admit I've never really looked at the other links.

I'll try 44 gr of Varget and see how my speed is. When I first measured my loads with my friends brand new chrony, I got 2602 fps (average), and my recent handloads came up at the 2568 (average) using another friends chrony!? Using 43.5 gr of Varget for both.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

The lighting conditions can affect your chrono. What is your barrel lenght and twist?

I would push those 168's harder if you have no signs of over pressure @ 44 grains.

Hodgdon says the max load is around 46 grains compressed @ 2731 fps. C.O.L. 2.8"

I would try and get as close to 2,700 fps as possible, but safely! The main factor being safely

 

[Downzero]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

What's the BC? Me thinks you're pissing up a rope trying to get that bullet to 1100.

Use 155 Scenars or 2156 Sierras.

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Downzero,

We've had successful gong hits at 1300 yds with this load.

JFC,

Nothing special.
Factory LTR (20" 1:12).

I have some 178 AMax I could try loading. How much powder would you recommend I start at?

 

[JFComfort]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pazzo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Downzero,

We've had successful gong hits at 1300 yds with this load.

JFC,

Nothing special.
Factory LTR (20" 1:12).

I have some 178 AMax I could try loading. How much powder would you recommend I start at?

</div></div>

Nice rifle!

You can get those 168's to do it but you will have to push them harder! I'm looking at a new rifle with a 26" barrel 1-12" twist but I'm kinda stumped on what bullet to run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwYgShOV35E&feature=channel_page

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Interesting.

I have a 1500 yd spot here as well

I'm thinking my next barrel will be either a 22 or 24" 1:10!? Although there has been numerous tests where 20" barrels have successfully hit 1000 yds with no issues. Not to mention the 20" fits in my Pelican 1720 perfectly

 

[JFComfort]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

A friend I shoot with uses a 20" 1-12" barrel SPS tactical in a B&C stock and he gets out to 1k no problem. I think he was using 175 grain HMS factory ammo.

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Funny, my shooting partner has a factory SPS tactical in an AICS stock & NF scope.

Both his rifle and mine are constantly hitting our targets as far as 1300 with relatively few issues.

 

[donws2]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Very nice rifle. I'm loading 44.5 or 45 grains of Varget behind the 175's. It depends on the brass I'm using at the time. I have to step down my load if I switch from Winchester brass to Lake City. The LC is thicker I think and will cause pressure problems if I don't back off a .5 grain. My rig is a GAP Crusader with a 22" 1 in 11.25 twist barrel. I will go with a 1 and 10 next time as I would like to play with some heavier bullets. May even go with a 260 AI as I can go to 1500 easy with a 1 in 8 tube in that cal. The 168 is a fine bullet and I've used a ton of them at a 1000. I've never played with the 178's. I prefer the 175's now as they do not require as much elevation while being driven at the same power levels as a 168. I think it's just easier on the barrel and gun all the way around. Both are very accurate and I would not hesitate to use a 168 at 1000 if I ran out of 175's. I do load to the lands and skip the box mag for long range accuracy. The 168 would be more magazine friendly as it's got a little shorter nose. Donald

 

[KHOOKS]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

I was shooting the Hornady match 168 grain stuff out of my stock LTR. A friend of mine run the numbers on his program. The ammo stated 2700 FPS, we figured it was with a 24" barrel. So we dropped the velocity to 2650. The program stated transition to sub-sonic at about 858 yards. We shot them to 1000 yards and they shot good out to 800 then at 900 they opened up a little, next at 1k they really opened up.

I have went to shooting the 178 amax and get a lot better results.

It's hard for me to even think I could hit a 4X8 plate at 1300 with the 168 grain load. I just can't beleive they could ba stable it over 900 yards with a 168GR pill unless your pushing the shit out of them. With the 20" 1/12 twist barrel of the LTR.

But I do wish you luck the the 168's, I wish my rifle could shoot them that well. They are a lot easier to find over some of the others.

 

[lroseen]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

This is just my guess based off the first pic. I think it probably did hit tip first. Consider that there appears to be sand in the tip and that there is a lot of marking on the front third of the bullet. Also, if you look at the bottom(as much of it as you can see) there appears to be further marking that is the same as the tip. So my thought is that it came in nose first, skipped off the ground then tumbled and hit something hard shearing off the back end.

Try some more shooting at this distance and try recover more bullets, maybe you might start to see some sort of pattern in them that will give you a better guess.

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MN sharpshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is just my guess based off the first pic. I think it probably did hit tip first. Consider that there appears to be sand in the tip and that there is a lot of marking on the front third of the bullet. Also, if you look at the bottom(as much of it as you can see) there appears to be further marking that is the same as the tip. So my thought is that it came in nose first, skipped off the ground then tumbled and hit something hard shearing off the back end.

Try some more shooting at this distance and try recover more bullets, maybe you might start to see some sort of pattern in them that will give you a better guess. </div></div>

Unfortunately the bullet did not hit the ground first. I'm shooting into a dirt bank and can spot the hits perfectly. If anything I've been shooting a bit high

I have recovered 20 or more bullets from this 1120 yd spot. I'll post pics up when I get home.

 

[E.Shell]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

pazzo, I'd agree with other posters that your questionable bullet seems to have hit nose-on, due to the abrasion pattern.

It's quite possible it began it's entry nose-on into the sand between the gravel, then struck a submerged stone and was yawed. Once in yaw, the bullet would tend to flip. This would also explain the broken base, and I've often seen bent bullets. Of all mediums to stop a bullet, sand with gravel in it would have to be about the least consistent.

FWIW, I'd suggest you take a look at your velocity variation and work on getting more consistent. The 58 FPS extreme spread your data shows will lead to noticeable vertical dispersion. Unexpected changes in velocity also affect your wind calls by a proportionate amount.

I have an LTR and have made repeatable hits to 1,200 on a 24" x 33" piece of steel. Surprisingly good shooting rifle. I've been using mostly FGMM 175s in mine.

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Here's some of the other bullets, all of which hit head-on:

I'm curious why my bullets have such a spread on the velocities when everything has been weighted out perfectly. Maybe it's the cheap (Federal) brass I'm using?

Time to get some Lapua

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: E.Shell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pazzo, I'd agree with other posters that your questionable bullet seems to have hit nose-on, due to the abrasion pattern.

It's quite possible it began it's entry nose-on into the sand between the gravel, then struck a submerged stone and was yawed. Once in yaw, the bullet would tend to flip. This would also explain the broken base, and I've often seen bent bullets. Of all mediums to stop a bullet, sand with gravel in it would have to be about the least consistent.

FWIW, I'd suggest you take a look at your velocity variation and work on getting more consistent. The 58 FPS extreme spread your data shows will lead to noticeable vertical dispersion. Unexpected changes in velocity also affect your wind calls by a proportionate amount.

+1, I've seen simlar results with some of mine at distance, the front is mangled and the rear also looks as though it had landed first. my backstop was soft mountain soil with lots of rocks mixed in. I figured the same had happened, a frontal impact followed by a yawing motion that damaged (to a slightly lesser degree) the base of the bullet.

I have an LTR and have made repeatable hits to 1,200 on a 24" x 33" piece of steel. Surprisingly good shooting rifle. I've been using mostly FGMM 175s in mine. </div></div>

 

[lroseen]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Unless there is absolutely no damage to one end you can not say with 100 percent certainty which end hit first. The fact that every other bullet you have shown in pictures on this thread show evidence of a front impact that in itself would possibly support my hypothesis. I'm not saying i'm right just giving you some things to consider.

If all the rest are ending up nose first but this one did not it could mean that you had a light charge however this is unlikely because it would most likely not have made it nearly as close to the target as you found it because your dope would be off.

Another possiblity if it did in fact tumble is that there was a flaw in the bullet. Realize however the odds of a bullet being just symmetrical enough that it made it this far with the same dope while beginning to tumbel are extremely unlikely and maybe not even possible. The bullet would have to have started to tumble within a few yards of the target otherwise the drag would be enough that it would beggin to drop rapidly and again your dope would be off.

In all likelyhood based off of info given I just don't see the bullet tumbling. I do hope you figure this out and don't have anymore trouble with it in the future. Best of luck, keep shootin.

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Great replies. Thanks everybody

Who knows how the bullet struck. At least I am pleased I was hitting my Nalgene bottles at that distance.

I will no doubt have to go back the drawing board and develop new loads sometime in the near future.

 

[hairy spotter]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Yes, you just keep working hard on that load development. It's tough work ain't it?

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hairy spotter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, you just keep working hard on that load development. It's tough work ain't it?

</div></div>

Yea, like pulling teeth

 

[Oldsmobiler]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Hey Pazzo lemme load up some 175's for ya so you can try them out on our next trip

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

I'm down with that

I'm know they'll be much better than the 168's.

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

I got to thinking about the back of that boolet and I think you mey have hit it in the ass end with a second round though not likely at 1100 yards I have seen it at closer ranges

 

[johngfoster]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

My first impression when I saw the 1st pic posted by the OP was that the jacket had somehow come loose and the core had been pushed rearward by the polymer tip, busting out the rear of the bullet. I know, they are supposed to be designed to do just the opposite, but stranger things have happened.

I just worked up a load with 178gr A-MAX, Varget, FGMM brass, CCI BR2 primers. In my Rem 700 with 25" Bartlein barrel:

178gr A-MAX kissing the lands
Varget 43.4gr
FGMM brass, trimmed/chamfered to 2.005", primer pocket reamed, flash hole reamed
CCI BR2

Ave MV @ 10ft = 2701 fps
ES=22
SD=8

Now I need to test this load at distance.

 

[pazzo]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

John,

Here are a few more pics of the sam bullet at different angles.

It appears it just hit the bank and scraped a rock, in turn ripping off the tail(?)

 

[cwshooter]

Re: AMax retrieval from 1100 yds...

Looks ripped to me. The base is pretty clean to have made an impact, and curved in the direction to indicate that it peeled back away from the tear in the side.
and the lead squeezed rearward since it was no longer supported by the base.
I don't see any indications that the bullet hit backwards. I'd say it hit suarely, deflected some gravel, and took some damage to the side in the process.
I think if it had tumbled in the air, to the point of hitting backwards, the odds of it hitting anywhere near the other rounds you fired, at that distance, are miniscule.