Ah yes, it will come to be known as the “Archimedes black eye”. ?
American Rifle Company New Archimedes Action, New Xylo Chassis, and major Mausingfield revision
- Thread starter karagias
- Start date
Ah yes, it will come to be known as the “Archimedes black eye”. ?
I am also kind of curious to see the new MF. One thing sticks out for sure, posted in the notes on the MF page on ARC's website. And I guess it gets into the very grey area of "how bad of a bad explosion does it take to grenade an action", which can be incredibly trivial/random. But I am curious to hear which parts are being nitrided, and depending on what they are, why the change of pace.
An action needs to have a margin of safety to resist the dangerously high loads resulting from misuse. The margin of safety stems from both proper design and proper heat-treatment of the steel from which the action is made. Therefore, the Mausingfield action must never be subjected to temperatures above 400°F (204°C) for any reason, because doing so will significantly weaken it and compromise its safety margin. The Mausingfield must not be subjected to high-temperature surface treatments such as ferritic nitrocarburizing or salt-bath nitriding, because such treatments are conducted at temperatures ranging from 900-1200° F (480-650° C). These treatments are marketed under several trade names, including Nitrotec®, Tufftride®, Tenifer®, QPQ®, and Melonite®. While these finishes might be suitable for some firearms, they are not suitable for the Mausingfield and may not be suitable for other bolt actions either
An action needs to have a margin of safety to resist the dangerously high loads resulting from misuse. The margin of safety stems from both proper design and proper heat-treatment of the steel from which the action is made. Therefore, the Mausingfield action must never be subjected to temperatures above 400°F (204°C) for any reason, because doing so will significantly weaken it and compromise its safety margin. The Mausingfield must not be subjected to high-temperature surface treatments such as ferritic nitrocarburizing or salt-bath nitriding, because such treatments are conducted at temperatures ranging from 900-1200° F (480-650° C). These treatments are marketed under several trade names, including Nitrotec®, Tufftride®, Tenifer®, QPQ®, and Melonite®. While these finishes might be suitable for some firearms, they are not suitable for the Mausingfield and may not be suitable for other bolt actions either
Check out the product page, it states Fulfillment of introductory orders begins in May 2019
"before the order is ready" means you will be invoiced for the remaining amount when they are about to ship the item. In other words, you are paying a deposit on a pre-order=discounted price.
Based on your question/attitude this means you should probably not pre-order if you are going to be a dick about having to wait an unknown period of time. If you want a for sure date wait until it is released and pay full price.
"before the order is ready" means you will be invoiced for the remaining amount when they are about to ship the item. In other words, you are paying a deposit on a pre-order=discounted price.
Based on your question/attitude this means you should probably not pre-order if you are going to be a dick about having to wait an unknown period of time. If you want a for sure date wait until it is released and pay full price.
Not trying to sound like an ass, but I will: you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, so it'd be best if you just didn't post about it. People have handled it now, and unanimously agree it's practically unnoticeable. in fact, due to the design, I can run this action faster than any other I've tried (which is a lot). Ted's logic is right, the human body in a shooting position is more adept to extracting by pulling into the shoulder vs twisting upwards. (and there are spent cases at Ted's booth....)
That's not the point of the lever. The point of the lever is that it makes the bolt lift lighter because you're not extracting during the lift. It's not there to give you the ability to extract cases you overpressured the hell out of, though it will do that too.
The 75 degree bolt throw would ordinarily make the bolt lift heavier than traditional 2-lug actions, but with the removal of the extraction during bolt lift you end up with a bolt lift more comparable to the 2-lug actions while retaining the shorter bolt throw.
Yeah... I get that but everyone is getting wrapped up the ability to extract stuck cases... that was my intent of my comment
I think people might be talking past one another.
There is something to what Sheldon N said. I'm going to test it the next time out with my Nucleus by removing the extractor and bringing along a cleaning rod. I initially dismissed it, but now I'm genuinely curious how often I'm actually using my primary extraction cam.
- Everyone at SHOT is cycling the action without firing it.
- No one is doubting it cycles quickly empty
- I don't think anyone is doubting that the Archimedes has massive leverage to pull stuck cases
- One assumes Ted has tested it and everything checks out
What's in question is lightly stuck cases, or normal fired cases. You're transferring the primary extraction from the bolt lift to the rearward stroke. So the question is if you'll still be able to run the bolt fast having no primary extraction happen on the lift, and all of it on the rearward stroke.
Nucleus: rotate the bolt up, built in primary extraction--- rearward pull meets no resistance --> quick cycle
Archimedes: rotate the bolt up, no primary extraction--- rearward pull meets primary extraction --> Maybe slight hiccup?
How much resistance is caused by normal pressure fired ammunition.
There is something to what Sheldon N said. I'm going to test it the next time out with my Nucleus by removing the extractor and bringing along a cleaning rod. I initially dismissed it, but now I'm genuinely curious how often I'm actually using my primary extraction cam.
- Everyone at SHOT is cycling the action without firing it.
- No one is doubting it cycles quickly empty
- I don't think anyone is doubting that the Archimedes has massive leverage to pull stuck cases
- One assumes Ted has tested it and everything checks out
What's in question is lightly stuck cases, or normal fired cases. You're transferring the primary extraction from the bolt lift to the rearward stroke. So the question is if you'll still be able to run the bolt fast having no primary extraction happen on the lift, and all of it on the rearward stroke.
Nucleus: rotate the bolt up, built in primary extraction--- rearward pull meets no resistance --> quick cycle
Archimedes: rotate the bolt up, no primary extraction--- rearward pull meets primary extraction --> Maybe slight hiccup?
How much resistance is caused by normal pressure fired ammunition.
Remember primary extraction does not happen until the last 10 degrees or so of bolt rotation so for most of the bolt rotation you are compressing the firing pin spring. The ease of bolt lift for most of the bolt rotation would be mostly dependent on the spring weight and the bolt cocking cams.
I spoke with Jon and Ted at ARC about the Mausenfield updates. There will be no machined lug at this time, but may offer it as an upgrade later. They are switching to Nitride in the Short Actions, not certain on the long actions. They are opening up the ejection port like they did on the hunter actions, so there is no way to do the interlocking scope mount. The bolt release is a lever in the same position as the Nucleus release, but it is not the same.
I view the Mausenfield as a very robust action. The changes to the ejection port, rail and lug, as well as dropping DLC seem to take away from that and make it more of hunting-ish action. IMHO, I think they should have just offered the Hunting Action that LRI did as a separate SKU and kept the original action the same with the added shorter bolt throw, dual cocking cams, and lug guide rail.
I also ran the Archimedes again and don't think you are giving anything up with the Nucleus if you are running standard short action cartridges (6.5, .308, 6mm, etc) in comp or field. I find my Nucleus to be smooth and fast. If I were building a short mag or long action, then I'd look harder at the Archimedes.
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You’re getting at exactly what I’m talking about. Not crazy pressure loads or anything, but the subtlety of how we run the bolt in a match situation. I run very conservative loads to minimize any sort of heavy bolt lift, but it can be a thing when the chamber gets dirty or the weather is hot, whatever.
When I lift the bolt I place my thumb on the stock to give leverage then lift and slightly rotate my wrist using the backside of my index finger. Doesn’t take much, the gun doesn’t rotate since I have my thumb as the counterpoint for leverage. Then once the bolt is up I’m literally flicking the bolt backwards with my index finger and wrist to eject the case. Pretty much zero effort on reward pull.
For me, the issue that I see is that the place in the bolt cycle where primary extraction happens is in a very poor location for me to have a mechanical advantage. Ted’s video shows how it’s natural for the shooter to pull back into the shoulder with their bicep, but that’s not at all how I run the bolt. If I were to run into a sticky case on occasion, I would have to stop and switch grips, grab the bolt handle and pull back. That just doesn’t appeal to me and I wouldn’t want to change how I run the bolt.
Magnum caliber, long action shooting slow paced and prone this is a much more compelling action. On a short action comp gun, it doesn’t seem likely to work for me.
Are you running a pre-release version and if so how many rounds have you fired through it? Used in competition setting?
Curious on your thoughts, if you’ve got real experience.
So, I remember Ted making a comment about nitriding a while back and how it is perfectly safe when properly controlled for. I assume he has found someone that fits his requirements to do nitriding on the actions to his specs. It wasn't recommended on their actions previously because of the large variability that could be had from the people doing the application and the unintended consequences that it could cause.
While everyone is making nitriding out to be some kind of downgrade, on the actions I've felt I honestly prefer the feel of nitrided actions to DLC actions. They feel slicker to me anyways, and if the guys at Impact Precision are doing it there's clearly some basis to people thinking it's more than just good enough.
I was interested that in the ELR Beyond 1000 section Elr Researcher said ARC was planning on an ELR size action archimedes for .338/ CT cases in 2020 or so.
Watching videos of some of the guys at the King of 2 Miles event beating open their bolt handles, I imagine the extraction benefits would be much more pronounced in that style of competition.
It says "shortly before the order is ready" at that point you are in control, you can pay up or drag your feet until you get passed over.
The xylo reminds me of an Olympic style target stock, with the anschutz rail and the customizable wooden grip.
I'm aware. I'd like to be able to run both calibers in the same action and the Mausingfield is the only action they currently offer that will accommodate that.
I thought this too. I would really love a wood cheekpiece. It looks like the cheekpiece is a removable on the Xylo so a custom grip and wood combo would really set it off.
Here's a Gilkes-Ross for reference.
@Jon_ARC,
XYLO Suggestion: incorporating a slot for an spigot mount such as KRG, MPA etc would be appreciated by many. I personally really like running my Elite Iron bipod off the KRG slot.
Really appreciate the materials selection (7075 & Titanium) and how you kept the weight down. Won me over for a preorder.
XYLO Suggestion: incorporating a slot for an spigot mount such as KRG, MPA etc would be appreciated by many. I personally really like running my Elite Iron bipod off the KRG slot.
Really appreciate the materials selection (7075 & Titanium) and how you kept the weight down. Won me over for a preorder.
i Just don’t get the impression it’s ready for market just yet. It looks like it was thrown together a couple days ago for shot. I think it needs further refinement before more people will take it seriously.
In what respect? The fit and finish was fantastic on the examples at SHOT. Much more refined than other chassis there.
The rear portion behind the grip needs refinement. I watched a video of a guy who was playing with the comb height adjuster and it fell apart in his hands. I see the rear pad area as basic at best.
that's how i felt about the james madison too. and just from images as i was not at shot.
they look off to a good start, but both missing some key things
The james Madison chassis was only a prototype. Josh pulled the last pieces of the chassis out of the machine the night before he left for shot. How could that ever be a final production model? It was definitely a concept/prototype that is due for provisions. Even the grip. That isnt the grip it will even come with. Josh hasn't even 100% nailed down what he's doing for the grip. I know it will be vertical and much better than an A2 grip. The JMC will look and function a little different from the one at SHOT.
One possible request or “nice to have” is more adjustability out of the xylo, I have kids and kids are short then they grow, it be awesome to be able to have the length of pull down to like 10”, and then out to a full 14” or whatever,
Same for the wooden grip, can it be adjustable back and forth, like the magpul pro chassis, so I can teach a 10 yr old on a gun they fits both of us
There are different chassis that do this, but I’m making a wishlist for ARC
And +1 on a wooden cheek piece
Same for the wooden grip, can it be adjustable back and forth, like the magpul pro chassis, so I can teach a 10 yr old on a gun they fits both of us
There are different chassis that do this, but I’m making a wishlist for ARC
And +1 on a wooden cheek piece
So since this is a thread about the archimedes also, was there anyone else that has their hands on it at shot? If so were you able to cycle it with any brass. How was the feel since the extraction happens purely on rear bolt travel. Is it something a guy would be able to just flick the bolt rearward like normal or will it require a modified bolt throw motion to apply more force
@Jon_ARC
Another Xylo suggestion: Consider incorporating an offset/drop (approx. 1-1.5") between the magwell and the forearm so that the magwell can be shoved against an obstacle and not contact the magazine. Works well with your rail stops as well for trapping an object between the magwell and the sliding rail stops.
My preference for achieving this would be to decrease the depth of the forearm by about .75" if possible and extend the magwell down about .5". Texturing the offset with serrations is particularly nice as well. Usually a comfortable spot to carry the rifle to boot.
Another Xylo suggestion: Consider incorporating an offset/drop (approx. 1-1.5") between the magwell and the forearm so that the magwell can be shoved against an obstacle and not contact the magazine. Works well with your rail stops as well for trapping an object between the magwell and the sliding rail stops.
My preference for achieving this would be to decrease the depth of the forearm by about .75" if possible and extend the magwell down about .5". Texturing the offset with serrations is particularly nice as well. Usually a comfortable spot to carry the rifle to boot.
I tried to resist but I caved, placed pre-order for archimedes.
This will be my third arc build. 1st Mausingfield 300wsm, 2nd Nucleus 6.5cm, 3rd Archimedes 6.5 saum.
This will be my third arc build. 1st Mausingfield 300wsm, 2nd Nucleus 6.5cm, 3rd Archimedes 6.5 saum.
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Ditto on the "I have kids". Would love to see a LOP support down to 10-12 up to 15 (even if i have to remove the pad). Also if you make grips out of plastic .. that way i can stipple them (I do this on the MPA and the MDT ACC to get a better purhase). I hate slippery grips (even though people say its better so you dont torque).
You need a stock that works with a straight bolt handle and the ejection port is a little different with the Archimedes compared to a real 700. So if you don’t mind a show line that’s a little off it should work fine.
Yea, its going to have its own inlet if you go w/ a stock and want a perfect fit. Functionally a Nuke inlet would work with possibly a little work. The bolt handle angle is different than the Mausingfield and Nuke. For a chassis, it wont be an issue
The LOP already is designed w/ 3" of adjustment (11-14 is i believe what they said)
@Jon_ARC
I'm going to pre-order the Xylo chassis. I just love a chassis with a traditional stock form factor. I've got the ARC Barloc and scope rings. If the engineering is anything like these products, this will be great.
Changes I would like to see are:
I'm going to pre-order the Xylo chassis. I just love a chassis with a traditional stock form factor. I've got the ARC Barloc and scope rings. If the engineering is anything like these products, this will be great.
Changes I would like to see are:
- Folding option for transport (a shorter LOP would also accomplish this)
- Adjustable grip/trigger distance
- Ability to preset both the long (prone) stock position and short (seated) stock position
- Integrated magazine guard/barricade stop
- Weight system that works not only on the forend but also on the stock end to balance things out
