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Mind showing a close up pick of a tested case?
I wonder if they have built in instrument that tests the crush pressure of the case mouth.
Email Alex from AMP. Maybe he can explain it to you what you are seeing. He is normally really quick to get back and helpful
Make sure your $1500 machine is doing exactly what what you kinda maybe think it should be doing based on a unscientific internet consensus on a gun forum.
Excellent point and very valid thinking. There is no perfect when it comes to do-it-yourself annealing. I went for years oblivious to the fact I was not going to get good reloads without annealing.LOL
Stick to thinking you can see the exact amount/color of flame each time as your gauge to uniform annealing.
Question for the experts. What type of annealer is Lapua, Alpha, and Peterson using on their brass at the end of forming the shoulder / neck? A flame annealer set up based on a Tempilaq reading, or a computer controlled induction based system? And why?
Even if they are different codes when you try case after case, if they are all done under the same code, isn't that the important part?
Important part is the case is heated to the acceptable range. Which is why finding the average case is important.
If you end up with a code on one extreme end or the other, you *may* end up with over or under annealed cases that are on the opposite end of the spectrum.
It's easier to under anneal than it is to over anneal, so . . . ???
#demandsamecodebrass
So whats the difference between someone running a code 20 numbers apart on the Aztec compared to people arguing over their preferred annealing temp? Some like 650, some like 700, some like 750 degrees. Others shoot for color or turn off their flame when the brass starts to glow in the dark... too many other options to fuck it up, why not do the same with the AMP?
When I was looking for an annealer, I looked at the AMP. But, I said to myself, “Self. How do I know what’s going to in there when I insert the case in an enclosed thing?”
So, I ended up with an Annealeez, with the digital speed controller. Now, I templac a handful and mix them in the hopper. When I see those coming around, I verify the speed and flame. I figure if one gets 450° and another gets 459°, I’m still good. I neck turn, also. So thickness inconsistencies isn’t an issue.
That is very funny but probably apt. Wicked.AMP users remind me of Scientologists.
lol you guys...
Look, the AMP (or a homemade induction annealer) is unquestionably the best way to anneal. It is the only method that will 100% of the time apply the exact same amount of heat, for the exact same amount of time case-to-case. Paying careful attention, you can get close with flame, but you've got variation in gas flow, flame temp, some setups require you to reconfig the torch each time, etc... the point being...it cannot (and will never be) be as consistent.
The lack of setup/config required for the AMP, as well as the ability to definitively tell you the right code for annealing is the whole reason people are spending $1400 on it. If the AZTEC code varies, it's because you've got variation in the brass somewhere, not because the AMP spits out numbers at random. This is also incredibly easy to test yourself....go burn up some .mil 223 LC brass playing with it....you'll see exactly how it works.
Hell, even in their own testing AMP has acknowledged flame annealing is a good option, provided you're 100% confident of the temps/time (they wouldnt' say the same for salt bath)....so it's not like you're not going to get good results with a flame annealer...you just need to know what you're doing.
Now, if you're not getting the 'on target' or 'on chronograph' results you want from the AMP, that's not necessarily an indication the AMP is somehow flawed. It's more an indication that the process of annealing isn't meeting whatever expectation you had, because unless it's broken, the AMP is doing it perfectly, every time.
Reminds me of folks who have never shot a custom talking about how their savage with a PTC Shilen is 'just as good' as a Defiance with a shouldered Bartlein. I mean..I'm sure it's accurate....but just as good...common. All it takes is a couple of shots behind the custom and you'll at least partially understand why people spend the money....same goes for the AMP.
I still use a torch but if I wasn’t spending $$$ on multiple hobbies I’d definitely spring for the AMP.
It seems the best option as of now.
I have a custom with a high end cut rifled barrel.
My lowly savage with is Shilen prefit can totally hang with it in the accuracy department.
Oh I’m totally a BR shooter.You shoot BR, or do you mean you shoot them both about the same?
my machine came with zilch for instructions. No manual. Just one page of pretty useless stuff. So I watch all their videos and set it up.
it may be another point altogether, but if there is this sophisticated setupprocedure (nobody has yet provided a link to it) then it’s pretty irresponsible to send out the $1500 machine without instructions I think.
unlike many folks I don’t join tribes. I have two very expensive machines and I’m just reporting what I see.
And it ain’t “perfect”
In all fairness the number selected by the AMP annealer is arbitrary. According to amp the numbers have no meaning. The machine picks random numbers. They are not assigned in proximity to each other.
I don’t consider myself an AMP expert by any means, but I don’t think this is entirely accurate.In all fairness the number selected by the AMP annealer is arbitrary. According to amp the numbers have no meaning. The machine picks random numbers. They are not assigned in proximity to each other.
I don’t consider myself an AMP expert by any means, but I don’t think this is entirely accurate.
this is from their website;
“Firstly, it changes the codes generated in "Analyse” mode from being random numbers to a linear sequence, with each successive four-digit code number delivering fractionally more energy than the previous number. For example, code 0127 will anneal a fraction more than code 0126. This makes the codes much more intuitive to use. We have completed "Annealing Under the Microscope Part 3” which is an extensive study on the value of weight sorting cases and the effects on AZTEC codes and annealing accuracy.”
This has been my experience in actual testing. AZTEC is supposed to work off of FIRED brass. Run the AZTEC on resized brass and the value will be a few points above the FIRED value. In testing, the values tested above the FIRED Aztec value resulted in the beginning of a substantial loss in muzzle velocity for the established load. For some brass, I’ve even found it necessary to reduce by a point of the average Aztec value in order to keep the velocity up and the ES’s consistent. Only experienced this with 5.56 thus far. Other calibers have been spot on.
how exactly are you changing the numbers/setting when you anneal?
Same way as when I’m annealing one caliber and then the next. I wrote all my Aztec codes down as it pertains to its brass, so I input my selection.
gotcha so your not actually changing anything your just using the code from your analyze run with what ever brass/cartridge your annealing at the time.
You don’t analyze every time unless you choose to and want to expend brass. Once you’ve determined the code for your particular brass, each time the machine fires up it prompts you to “analyze” or “run”. Choose “run” for your annealing session, and then it prompts you for the code. So if my Lake City 2012 5.56 code is 0123, I may still elect to use 0122. So that’s when I input whatever I wish. Then you’re off to annealing...
im very familiar with the amp and how it works and actually if you want to anneal less or more you enter your code from what the "analyze" gave you...you then push and hold the + button until the little star on the right disappears(aprox 2secs)you then use the + and - buttons too anneal less or more you can go 6 numbers + and 6 numbers - from your code....im not sure what changing your actual code from 123 to 122 does.
like i said ive been playing with the amp trying to figure out how i can anneal every time and retain my accuracy...last weekend i annealed 5 each at my code(for peterson BR brass formed to BRX)0129..0129-2..0129-4..0129-6 the 129 shot pretty good...this sunday i shot flame annealed using tempilaq 750 and i also shot my code 0129+2 which shot the best so in my case i think my code is a little under annealing so this coming weekend im going to run 129..129+2..129+4 and 129+6 then what ever shoots the best i will re-run at 100yds and also shoot out to distance.
#1 was foulers cold clean barrel
#2 was my code 0129
#3 was flame annealed
#6 was my code 0129+2 and the higher one was me gun not in my shoulder right
these are all 6 rounds
Well you know more about the machine than I do, because as soon as I input my desired code, I insert brass and hit START. I first figured out about code discrepancies when I Aztec’d resized 5.56 brass and got code 0125. Groups still looked awesome but velocity was down by almost 50fps. All my testing I do are shot with the lab radar, so I’m watching numbers in addition to the holes on target. My 77gr 5.56 load was worked up around the mass amount of 1x brass, so annealing was not not part of the load development. Additionally, the load developed is built to work well in all of my 5.56 rifles, so the testing of AMP’d brass and velocities is tested across all the platforms and lab radar. 0122 and 0123 is the threshold identified across all the rifles and true 5.56 chambers, wylde, and a CLE chamber.
ALL of my testing and load development is shot over a magneto speed(that is not attached to my barrel) my ESs are much better when annealing and my sizing is more consistent and this is why id like to anneal every time the problem is my groups go from 1 hole to what you see on paper..and by 1 hole i mean .2s and low .3s.
everyone says they anneal and their groups stay the same and are still awesome but that has never been the case for me...the first firing after annealing my groups open up...the second firing groups are back to normal...and this is what im trying to figure out.
ALL of my testing and load development is shot over a magneto speed(that is not attached to my barrel) my ESs are much better when annealing and my sizing is more consistent and this is why id like to anneal every time the problem is my groups go from 1 hole to what you see on paper..and by 1 hole i mean .2s and low .3s.
everyone says they anneal and their groups stay the same and are still awesome but that has never been the case for me...the first firing after annealing my groups open up...the second firing groups are back to normal...and this is what im trying to figure out.
Got the AMP Mark ii machine some months ago, and i am mostly happy with it. Much faster than gas flame annealing. Shoulder bump during FL sizing is also more consistent. SD and ES did not change for me (gas flame vs AMP).
But: The AMP machine has a tendency to change the surface finish of the neck to an undesirable state. If you run your fingers over the annealed area, it feels more ‘sticky’ than the unannealed area close to the case head. I also measured the required seating force via an instrumented K&M arbor press (with the “force measurement tip” ) for 30 cases each, and compared with brass that has been annealed and then tumbled again for 5 hours to strip off this layer: Seating force came down from 160 lbs (+- 50 lbs) to 60 lbs (+- 10 lbs) if you use the tumbler to remove the discolored oxidation layer. Almost 3x less seating force required and far better consistency post tumbling.
If i have to guess: It seems the intense localized heating causes an oxidation layer to form, which has a much higher coefficient of friction. After the tumbling operation, the neck feels as smooth as the rest of the case and the discoloration is gone. Seating is then butter smooth (it seated with a very hard thunk before).
It may just be the humid Gulf Coast climate causing my tumbled brass to slightly oxidize and discolor a tad before i get around to annealing the “clean” brass, and maybe somehow the AMP machine is transforming that thin surface layer of oxidized brass material via the high heat in the machine into a super sticky surface layer.... Not a metallurgist, so just guessing here. A comment from a bona fide professional would be most welcome!
All i know for sure is that seating force goes way up if i anneal in the AMP machine, and then comes down to normal again if i tumble the annealed cases for long enough. Never noticed the prior propane flame annealing doing that...
Has anybody seen that?
@47guy, perhaps try that.
Ya, Ive noticed that the AMP will turn the nice layer of black soot/ carbon inside the necks to a reddish color and you can see bare metal. Really it looks like it essentially cooks it away.
It still shoots well tho. Just finished at the range. This is with 34.8 and 35.1gr StaBall in a 6BR at 300yds. 2934 & 2948 respectively. SD at 8 No special lube or treatment to the necks. Just a mandrel. Loaded in a 650