AMP really worth the extra $$$$$$

[straightshooter1]

This is a continuation of an earlier video where Alex interviews Lou Murdica and (eventually) discuss the AMP and how to test the annealing process. In the video Lou is testing annealed vs unannealed and showing, through 20-shot groups, why he anneals with an AMP after every firing. Apologies if you've seen this prior.

Yup, his results are similar to what I got on paper doing the same kind of test out of my .308, though I did mine outdoors where environment was not so controlled . . . and, I flame annealed. In addition to the difference I got on paper, I also got the very similar difference in velocities.

See his numbers below (shots not in his order taken so to get ES):

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Yup, his results are similar to what I got on paper doing the same kind of test out of my .308, though I did mine outdoors where environment was not so controlled . . . and, I flame annealed. In addition to the difference I got on paper, I also got the very similar difference in velocities.

See his numbers below (shots not in his order taken so to get ES):

View attachment 8341439

While Lou obviously knows what he's doing when testing, unfortunately these four 10 shot groups really don't tell an extremely convincing. For example, let's say you have a load that has an average velocity of 2970 fps and a 10sd. As in, your actual SD is 10fps.

You can run a sim of 3000 shots and break those into 30 ten shot groups....and about 10% of the groups would have an SD of 13 or higher. Up to around 17 or more fps for an SD. If you run a 95% confidence interval for 20 shots and a 9 and 17sd, they do have some overlap.


So, his test definitely points to and suggests that annealing made a difference, it's highly likely the difference isn't as large as almost twice the benefit on muzzle velocity.

 

[Dutch308]

To me it’s simple; I’ve got this divine AMP box sitting on my reloading bench and all I have to do is sacrifice 1 piece of brass to the gods of ES and SD to give all other cases a long and healthy life. I don’t need no scientific proof to be a believer. The way this box is helping me to keep the faith when at the range makes it worth every penny I paid for it (I still suck, but that’s another story).

 

[Maurygold]

Some thoughts from watching some of their YouTube videos.

1. Lou got 20 firings with non-annealed lapua (cuts against longetivity argument)
2. The “testing” lou appears to all be based on 100 yard group size and no Doppler or chrono
3. Lou is using moly on every case (I’m not familiar with anyone still using moly?, did he moly the non-annealed?)
4. The group size difference was all in horizontal dispersion not vertical (I would be looking for vertical if consistent seating force was the expected outcome - pics attached)
5. Lous tunnel is pretty cool

 

[Tokay444]

Some thoughts from watching some of their YouTube videos.

1. Lou got 20 firings with non-annealed lapua (cuts against longetivity argument)
2. The “testing” lou appears to all be based on 100 yard group size and no Doppler or chrono
3. Lou is using moly on every case (I’m not familiar with anyone still using moly?, did he moly the non-annealed?)
4. The group size difference was all in horizontal dispersion not vertical (I would be looking for vertical if consistent seating force was the expected outcome - pics attached)
5. Lous tunnel is pretty cool

Does dispersion only happen in one direction? It isn't wind...

 

[Maurygold]

Does dispersion only happen in one direction? It isn't wind...

If it were repeated over a large sample I might give it merit but I’m not attributing that horizontal dispersion to annealing based on 40 shots.

He also used two different actions for the testing and although he may be an extremely talented shooter there’s still room for some human interference when you’re looking at groups this small you can’t assume things based on 2 small samples.

That said the book did arrive so maybe there will be additional testing

 

[Tokay444]

Clearly it’s something else that didn’t change.

 

[Haney]

While Lou obviously knows what he's doing when testing, unfortunately these four 10 shot groups really don't tell an extremely convincing. For example, let's say you have a load that has an average velocity of 2970 fps and a 10sd. As in, your actual SD is 10fps.

You can run a sim of 3000 shots and break those into 30 ten shot groups....and about 10% of the groups would have an SD of 13 or higher. Up to around 17 or more fps for an SD. If you run a 95% confidence interval for 20 shots and a 9 and 17sd, they do have some overlap.


So, his test definitely points to and suggests that annealing made a difference, it's highly likely the difference isn't as large as almost twice the benefit on muzzle velocity.

What do you think of this method ?

 

[secondofangle2]

I don't trust any guy with a labradar and a power drill

 

[Maurygold]

I don't trust any guy with a labradar and a power drill

Scrubbing the absolute hell out of your barrel and abrasive cleaners are popular in benchrest but not particularly other disciplines. This isnt that unusual if you’ve been to some benchrest matches

 

[Ex E6]

Ok cool. So then you agree annealing (or whatever you'd like to call it), is a good thing to do and you say there is no difference in Induction vs flame so long as both are done properly. I'm inclined to agree, but doing proper flame annealing and doing so the same for each case seems like a hard goal to achieve day in and day out.

I'm not sure what you are referring to with the whole "can't pull the wool over my eyes" stuff. I don't know who you think is trying to do that but I know sometimes old people feel as though others are trying to fool them when they aren't, so maybe that's that's about
?

Many people complicate setup or actual process unnecessarily doing precision reloading . The process is fairly simple ; precision case Prep ,ditto with powder charge ,bullet selection seating depth to a degree . So why should case to flame angle and distance be unreasonable to duplicate .

I simply tweaked an existing product too fulfill MY particular needs and I'm happy with it and it didn't cost Me #32 lb. of powder either .

Flame has different zones of heat ,I see several videos on the tube and have yet to hear a single person explain where the case needs to be in relationship to the cone while partial annealing . It does make a difference as to dwell time and effectively restoring ductility ,without frying the case body or necessity of water pan procedures protecting base . Also consistency and that's what precision reloading is about ,consistency .

The Sheep's wool Wolf analogy ,was reference to being in several different modes of reloading camps . It's akin to lemmings ,everyone does certain procedures ,Until someone shows up with a newer or proven method or refinement . Then the entire camp turns about following that procedure .

As any of us knows by this time in our lives ,not everything you've been told or seen is gospel and open mind is key to education .
I simply put info out there ,what people do with it is their business . Experiment prove it wrong or right or ignore it ,it's simply another #58 year Vets reloaders opinion .

Many people are perplexed when they load precision rounds and those groups from their weapons aren't as tight as other shooters and often are misled by powder ,primer or case not being acceptable ; When in fact it may just be their weapon's at fault or expecting BR results from a low budget hunting rifle . NO two rifles produce exact accuracy or prefer same powder charges . I learned that lesson the HARD way at considerable expense !.


IMO ,If a person who is precision reloading and has an acceptable platform ( a weapon capable of 0.5 MOA ) pretty well knows what works and what doesn't . If one is a Plinker and precision reloads too tighten group sizes ,it's also acceptable as they're generally Not trying to obtain 0.38" #5 shot groups but maintaining respectable MOA accuracy . IF one is in the BR camp ,this ISN'T the platform for them ,as weapons are no where near comparable . Again just MY opinion and You know the old saying ; Like assholes everyone is entitled to one

 

[Tokay444]

NO two rifles produce exact accuracy or prefer same powder charges . I learned that lesson the HARD way at considerable expense !.

Explain that to Mike R at TacOps.

 

[Ex E6]

Explain that to Mike R at TacOps.

I've yet to see two rifles produced exhibit the exact same results or two barrels made same machine same day same machinist .

Dan Lija explained that to Me once .

 

[Tokay444]

I've yet to see two rifles produced exhibit the exact same results or two barrels made same machine same day same machinist .

Dan Lija explained that to Me once .

I guess at, "#58" you've still got lots to see an learn.

 

[Ex E6]

I guess at, "#58" you've still got lots to see an learn.

75

 

[Tokay444]

75

You had better get a move on.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

LOL. If you're going to use "exact" down to the very definition, then yes, none will ever perform the same.

However, if you're going to use that logic, that means no powder charge or bullet composition, etc, etc, etc is ever the same from round to round. So it makes the argument moot.

 

[Haney]

Explain that to Mike R at TacOps.

Here we go again with that fanboy shit . Dusty and the boys are laughing.....again .

 

[Tokay444]

Here we go again with that fanboy shit . Dusty and the boys are laughing.....again .

Jealousy is a hell of a drug.

Tac Ops Rifles

Owners please post your gun porn here!

www.snipershide.com

 

[Haney]

Jealousy is a hell of a drug.

Tac Ops Rifles

Owners please post your gun porn here!

www.snipershide.com

That's some funny fanboy shit right there . Remember where it got you in the past? You did not handle it well. That was quite an implosion.

 

[Tokay444]

Implosion? Hardly. I stated the facts I was allowed to share and their fudd heads exploded.

 

[Ex E6]

LOL. If you're going to use "exact" down to the very definition, then yes, none will ever perform the same.

However, if you're going to use that logic, that means no powder charge or bullet composition, etc, etc, etc is ever the same from round to round. So it makes the argument moot.

With a known variable standard of manufacturing, allowable variance of 2% primer ,3.6% powder , Exact isn't a suitable equation or even close .

Why do you tricklers get deviation

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

With a known variable standard of manufacturing, allowable variance of 2% primer ,3.6% powder , Exact isn't a suitable equation or even close .

Why do you tricklers get deviation

Yes, we all know that things are never going to be the exact same.

But for our purposes, plenty of barrels will perform the same with the same charge weight and seating depth.

You’re just being old and stubborn again.

 

[Ex E6]

Yes, we all know that things are never going to be the exact same.

But for our purposes, plenty of barrels will perform the same with the same charge weight and seating depth.

You’re just being old and stubborn again.

Don't confuse Old age with WISDOM , stubbornness ISN'T in MY vocabulary . I'm of the analytical class ,repeat experiment for verification of theory . All conjecture is worth what ?, Nothing which can't be repeated .

IF what YOU say is true , WHY do #2 of MY Bushmasters ( #5 serial numbers apart ) prefer Different loads as well as Powder ?. Same barrels twist length made same day by same guys and air gauge superbly consistent and are accurate in their own right .

Yet Each with their respectable loads can maintain 0.5 MOA and when they shine 0.25 MOA . Both bores are CR lined too boot .

All I've said is simply Nothing is exact and relating to shooting NEVER CAN BE ,variables beyond reloaders control prevent perfection .

John's snicker bar or Pete's Kleenex fell into the powder mixture and do You truly believe the company is gonna can 1200-3000 lb. batch of power ?.
Then there's the ingredients themselves ,Numerous ingredients too many to even mention . Which ALL must be exact and weighted when blended . Surprise surprise Srg. the ball mill didn't get completely cleaned last night , No biggie were doing Dbl base batch today so load er up !.

Consider for a moment the simple stabilizers ( diphenylamine, methyl centralite, and ethyl centralite ) . Then there's the plasticizers
nitroglycerine, dibutyl phthalate, dinitrotoluene, ethyl centralite, and triacetin. . With additional energizers for Dbl or Triple base powders **.

Do a simple experiments take two grains of powder Your choice and evenly coat them with Graphite ,just see how easy that ISN'T .

The list goes on and on : Flash suppressants , prevent radical chamber gases from secondary flash .

Deterrents coatings : which reduces the initial burning rate on the surface as well as to reduce initial flame temperature . Too many to even list .

Opacifiers are also added . Not to mention Nitrocellulose and organic solvents and nitric acid, then specific ** energizers nitroglycerine nitroguanidine .

 

[Tokay444]

IF what YOU say is true , WHY do #2 of MY Bushmasters ( #5 serial numbers apart ) prefer Different loads as well as Powder ?. Same barrels twist length made same day by same guys and air gauge superbly consistent and are accurate in their own right .

Because they’re shit guns.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Because they’re shit gun.

That's funny, but some of the older bushmasters are pretty solid rifles ime

 

[secondofangle2]

Oops

 

[Ex E6]

My Bushmasters are circa 1993 and again 1999 . Bulk 55 gr. using BL-C2 25.5 gr. Shot Win factory strung up left quadrant . One of MY re loads as a fouler lower left quadrant aimed purposely . Then #15 into a ragged hole a dime will cover at 200 yd. leaving change . With Nikon scope .

That's Minute of Dead at 600 800 or 1000 yd. in MY book

 

[Tokay444]

Uh huh. But they couldn’t run the same load.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Don't confuse Old age with WISDOM , stubbornness ISN'T in MY vocabulary . I'm of the analytical class ,repeat experiment for verification of theory . All conjecture is worth what ?, Nothing which can't be repeated .

IF what YOU say is true , WHY do #2 of MY Bushmasters ( #5 serial numbers apart ) prefer Different loads as well as Powder ?. Same barrels twist length made same day by same guys and air gauge superbly consistent and are accurate in their own right .

Yet Each with their respectable loads can maintain 0.5 MOA and when they shine 0.25 MOA . Both bores are CR lined too boot .

All I've said is simply Nothing is exact and relating to shooting NEVER CAN BE ,variables beyond reloaders control prevent perfection .

John's snicker bar or Pete's Kleenex fell into the powder mixture and do You truly believe the company is gonna can 1200-3000 lb. batch of power ?.
Then there's the ingredients themselves ,Numerous ingredients too many to even mention . Which ALL must be exact and weighted when blended . Surprise surprise Srg. the ball mill didn't get completely cleaned last night , No biggie were doing Dbl base batch today so load er up !.

Consider for a moment the simple stabilizers ( diphenylamine, methyl centralite, and ethyl centralite ) . Then there's the plasticizers
nitroglycerine, dibutyl phthalate, dinitrotoluene, ethyl centralite, and triacetin. . With additional energizers for Dbl or Triple base powders **.

Do a simple experiments take two grains of powder Your choice and evenly coat them with Graphite ,just see how easy that ISN'T .

The list goes on and on : Flash suppressants , prevent radical chamber gases from secondary flash .

Deterrents coatings : which reduces the initial burning rate on the surface as well as to reduce initial flame temperature . Too many to even list .

Opacifiers are also added . Not to mention Nitrocellulose and organic solvents and nitric acid, then specific ** energizers nitroglycerine nitroguanidine .

This is what happens when old, stubborn, average intelligence people "find the internet" and decide they want to share their knowledge with the world.

Stop putting words you think sound smart together. It doesn't work.

Also, "wise" people wouldn't ask why a sample size of two perform differently. As that "wise" person would know that you can also find five barrels or more that do perform the same and/or best with the same powder charge and seating depth.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Oh, and I'm promise you don't shoot those gas guns well enough to use them for any comparative analysis.

P.S. "analytical class" people don't use pie plates.

 

[Haney]

This is what happens when old, stubborn, average intelligence people "find the internet" and decide they want to share their knowledge with the world.

Stop putting words you think sound smart together. It doesn't work.

Also, "wise" people wouldn't ask why a sample size of two perform differently. As that "wise" person would know that you can also find five barrels or more that do perform the same and/or best with the same powder charge and seating depth.

You get mouthy when you drink .

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

You get mouthy when you drink .

Fortunately I don't drink.

Still waiting for you to drop your "wisdom" for us to learn from. You'll be joining the ignore list in the next day or two. Then I'll hit the show ignored content once a week or so when I'm bored and see what kind of entertainment I can get from your posts.

 

[Tokay444]

Fortunately I don't drink.

Still waiting for you to drop your "wisdom" for us to learn from. You'll be joining the ignore list in the next day or two. Then I'll hit the show ignored content once a week or so when I'm bored and see what kind of entertainment I can get from your posts.

Generally just the stalkery old pedo reporty kind.

 

[Ex E6]

Oh, and I'm promise you don't shoot those gas guns well enough to use them for any comparative analysis.

P.S. "analytical class" people don't use pie plates.

Yet again wrong . I still use those AR15's occasionally and regardless of which I choose to use , with their respective particular loads will nearly duplicate one another in performance .

Would you prefer I put tiny dots on butcher paper at 278 yd. , which is gonna be impossible for Me to see ?. Now days it's 0-50 yd. or Rifle range 165-1177 yd. .

The object of the lesson YOU failed to comprehend was : Powder formulas and batch mixing have variables and ingredients vary ,not MY problem you don't speak chemistry .

 

[Tokay444]

Sample size of 2.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Yet again wrong . I still use those AR15's occasionally and regardless of which I choose to use , with their respective particular loads will nearly duplicate one another in performance .

Would you prefer I put tiny dots on butcher paper at 278 yd. , which is gonna be impossible for Me to see ?. Now days it's 0-50 yd. or Rifle range 165-1177 yd. .

The object of the lesson YOU failed to comprehend was : Powder formulas and batch mixing have variables and ingredients vary ,not MY problem you don't speak chemistry .

And this is why social media will be regarded by future generations as one of the worst inventions in modern history. You used to only have to hear this kind of shit from that one uncle every Thanksgiving at the extra table you kept between the adult and the kid table.

Same table where you keep that other uncle who sorts brass with a square.

 

[Ex E6]

Yea I guess this useful idiot figured out , that case run out tolerances don't mean shit . #11 out of forty cases were within 0.003" run out tolerance he set . The rest oh well

 

[Tokay444]

Yea I guess this useful idiot figured out , that case run out tolerances don't mean shit . #11 out of forty cases were within 0.003" run out tolerance he set . The rest oh well

View attachment 8345283

6 times that runout doesn’t matter.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I stack up 65 pennies. Then I place a round next to them to sort via OAL when compared to the pennies.

After that, I carefully select a K cup from the various coffees I have on the shelf. I use that to zero my Fx120 scale. Then use it to sort my rounds by weight.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

My Ruger No. 1 prefers black rifle company coffee.

My M70 pre64 .220 swift prefers Starbucks light roast.

 

[Haney]

Same two trolls piling on every chance they get . Can't handle their booze . Just ask Dusty, he made one cry .

 

[Tokay444]

Same two trolls piling on every chance they get . Can't handle their booze . Just ask Dusty, he made one cry .

Awww, muffin! You gonna hit the report button again?

 

[Haney]

Awww, muffin! You gonna hit the report button again?

Thin skinned little fella you are new guy from canada .

 

[Tokay444]

Thin skinned little fella you are new guy from canada .

So thin I’ve never once reported anyone.

 

[Tokay444]

So thin I’ve never once reported anyone.

You go tell Dusty Mike is still putting out guns that shoot in the zeros with factory ammo. As soon as they banned me, I had won. Mike Miller is the only real shooter in that thread and he’s confirmed the guns live up to the claims.

 

[Chris Richard]

I had the Bench Source. It was a pain in the ass to set up, and it was all guesswork based on the color of the brass or your use of Tempilaq.

I have the AMP, and I anneal every single loading. Yes it’s worth it IMO.

 

[Haney]

You go tell Dusty Mike is still putting out guns that shoot in the zeros with factory ammo. As soon as they banned me, I had won. Mike Miller is the only real shooter in that thread and he’s confirmed the guns live up to the claims.

That is some funny shit right there . That whole forum laughed and celebrated when they banned you. I believe it went something like ...Thank god you finally banned that toxic troll .

 

[Tokay444]

That is some funny shit right there . That whole forum laughed and celebrated when they banned you. I believe it went something like ...Thank god you finally banned that toxic troll .

You mean, like we do on your weekly bans here?