PRS Talk An actual division that is worth while

[Forward543]

I am looking for division ideas to get people into this sport. People seem to want a division to start this sport in. Apparently if you are scored separate from top level guys, it is pleasant. I do not want to debate this topic, I would like ideas of how to create a division, that does not interfere with the open division, to include new shooters.

My current thought, make a magazine restriction to 5 rounds in the gun. Possibly make the cof the first 60-70% of the shots from the open cof. This way someone can come shoot, with the gear they have, and not feel at too big of a disadvantage. As well as have more time to setup.

It is my experience that shooters struggling is most often finding targets, then building a good position, not their gear. What do you have?

 

[W54/XM-388]

Maybe don't make any gear restrictions, just make it pro / amateur restriction type.
The whole gear restriction thing is a bit stupid in my opinion.

Bring whatever you want from fancy to cheap, and its specifically amateur only, so once you win you are out of that class and other "Pro" types are not in that class.

Figure out how to setup the amateur designation to support new shooters and those learning, so you know when to tell folks they have moved on and are now in the "Pro" category and need to go compete in that level.

 

[Darqusoull13]

I am looking for division ideas to get people into this sport. People seem to want a division to start this sport in. Apparently if you are scored separate from top level guys, it is pleasant. I do not want to debate this topic, I would like ideas of how to create a division, that does not interfere with the open division, to include new shooters.

My current thought, make a magazine restriction to 5 rounds in the gun. Possibly make the cof the first 60-70% of the shots from the open cof. This way someone can come shoot, with the gear they have, and not feel at too big of a disadvantage. As well as have more time to setup.

It is my experience that shooters struggling is most often finding targets, then building a good position, not their gear. What do you have?

Just my thoughts, probably worth exactly what I was paid to write them.

How do you grow the sport?

Match directors that recognize the number 1 priority is ensuring the new guy has a good time have full matches. If the first match is a positive experience, the shooter WILL come back.

How do you ensure someone has a good time? Pair them with good shooters that will help them. This isn't new or novel. Nearly everyone in this game has the same story of a really nice experienced guy helping them their first time. There's been a local high level shooter walk an entire squad of new shooters through a match, shooting first, explaining positions, calling wind and corrections still skull dragging everyone at the match. Guys with 10+ years experience that are calm and walk people through things to take the nerves out of the shooting on the clock so the new guy has fun instead of a goose egg stage. I was that guy, a recovering 3 gunner, and I had a phenomenal first match experience where the literal best shooters in the country did exactly those things.

The case for Classes:

Classes allow the shooter to compete against someone they perceive to have their same skill level. Pro(>80%), Expert(50-80%), Marksman (<50%) (you fill in the names and the tiers) is what we use. Each top 3 in a division get a trophy. USPSA has been doing this for decades and it keeps people interested in shooting. Classes fill matches. Do the trophies mean anything to anyone outside of the person with them? Nope. Do they mean something to that person? Yup, and not necessarily winning. Sometimes they are just mementos of a good time with friends.

To support the idea that classes, and not divisions, fill matches I've pulled some quick statistics from USPSA as well as our local PRS matches at both the Regional and Qualifier level.

Breakdowns sign ups for USPSA PCC Nat's (in June) (G is the highest, D lowest, U - unclassified). Note, PCC is 1 relatively new Division within USPSA with 269 entries in that division alone. The top 5% (GM) of shooters by class are 10% of the match. 90% of the match on paper has zero chance of winning, although realistically that's far less.

USPSA	U	D	C	B	A	M	G
Class
PCC 269 Total	54	4	29	52	52	49	29

Breakdown scores for TX Precision matches most recent 1 day in may. You can see the guys at the top are not filling the matches in any sport. Even with a more broad cutoff, Pro classified as top 20% of shooters, the top class only accounts for 30% of the entries. Classes are filling the matches and classes are bringing new people in.

More importantly, at our matches nobody shoots divisions. Zero Tac, Zero Production, 5 GG . Yeah there's always some token gas gunners and to be fair there's 10 of those psychos signed up for June. But rather than wasting money on gear races for divisions and trying to beat Satterlee in Production (Good luck!), a shooter can buy the same gun they would have for open or whatever their budget can handle and shoot against equally skilled/experienced shooters.

TX Precision				GasGun (Div)	Marksman	Expert	Pro
Classes
Totals	130			5	35	45	42

TX PM Best in Texas			GasGun (Div)	TAC	Prod	Open
Classes
Totals	174		1 - Yah bOi	8	4	161

The case against Divisions:

There's simply not enough shooters in the PRS now to justify adding any divisions and no division has brought members to the sport. PRS member numbers are at ~7000 with active membership around 3000? That's 10 times less than USPSA. K&M fielded 230 shooters total, with 7 Tac, 7 Prod and 5 GG. 8% of people shot divisions other than open and the total number of shooters was less than a single division USPSA match. The number of division entries in every PRS match this year are similarly low.

Divisions are dominated by guys that are exceptional shooters being compensated to win trophies (Cooper, Satterlee). Sponsors love it sure. But the new guy isn't going to score well in a division. Eventually divisions may become distinct challenges within themselves so guys can compete against other shooters with equal challenges. At the moment the numbers do not support adding more divisions.

Poll 10 new shooters over the year at their very first match and ask them what division they are shooting and why they are legal for that division. Nobody knows or I would argue would even care. Now poll them on what Class they are shooting. They are new so first match, new shooter, least experienced class. They are now shooting against people of equal skill.

One small point regarding 5 round mags - In no reality is shooting LESS going to attract or bring people back to a match.

 

[Forward543]

Just my thoughts, probably worth exactly what I was paid to write them.

How do you grow the sport?

Match directors that recognize the number 1 priority is ensuring the new guy has a good time have full matches. If the first match is a positive experience, the shooter WILL come back.

How do you ensure someone has a good time? Pair them with good shooters that will help them. This isn't new or novel. Nearly everyone in this game has the same story of a really nice experienced guy helping them their first time. There's been a local high level shooter walk an entire squad of new shooters through a match, shooting first, explaining positions, calling wind and corrections still skull dragging everyone at the match. Guys with 10+ years experience that are calm and walk people through things to take the nerves out of the shooting on the clock so the new guy has fun instead of a goose egg stage. I was that guy, a recovering 3 gunner, and I had a phenomenal first match experience where the literal best shooters in the country did exactly those things.

The case for Classes:

Classes allow the shooter to compete against someone they perceive to have their same skill level. Pro(>80%), Expert(50-80%), Marksman (<50%) (you fill in the names and the tiers) is what we use. Each top 3 in a division get a trophy. USPSA has been doing this for decades and it keeps people interested in shooting. Classes fill matches. Do the trophies mean anything to anyone outside of the person with them? Nope. Do they mean something to that person? Yup, and not necessarily winning. Sometimes they are just mementos of a good time with friends.

To support the idea that classes, and not divisions, fill matches I've pulled some quick statistics from USPSA as well as our local PRS matches at both the Regional and Qualifier level.

Breakdowns sign ups for USPSA PCC Nat's (in June) (G is the highest, D lowest, U - unclassified). Note, PCC is 1 relatively new Division within USPSA with 269 entries in that division alone. The top 5% (GM) of shooters by class are 10% of the match. 90% of the match on paper has zero chance of winning, although realistically that's far less.

USPSA	U	D	C	B	A	M	G
Class
PCC 269 Total	54	4	29	52	52	49	29

Breakdown scores for TX Precision matches most recent 1 day in may. You can see the guys at the top are not filling the matches in any sport. Even with a more broad cutoff, Pro classified as top 20% of shooters, the top class only accounts for 30% of the entries. Classes are filling the matches and classes are bringing new people in.

More importantly, at our matches nobody shoots divisions. Zero Tac, Zero Production, 5 GG . Yeah there's always some token gas gunners and to be fair there's 10 of those psychos signed up for June. But rather than wasting money on gear races for divisions and trying to beat Satterlee in Production (Good luck!), a shooter can buy the same gun they would have for open or whatever their budget can handle and shoot against equally skilled/experienced shooters.

TX Precision				GasGun (Div)	Marksman	Expert	Pro
Classes
Totals	130			5	35	45	42

TX PM Best in Texas			GasGun (Div)	TAC	Prod	Open
Classes
Totals	174		1 - Yah bOi	8	4	161

The case against Divisions:

There's simply not enough shooters in the PRS now to justify adding any divisions and no division has brought members to the sport. PRS member numbers are at ~7000 with active membership around 3000? That's 10 times less than USPSA. K&M fielded 230 shooters total, with 7 Tac, 7 Prod and 5 GG. 8% of people shot divisions other than open and the total number of shooters was less than a single division USPSA match. The number of division entries in every PRS match this year are similarly low.

Divisions are dominated by guys that are exceptional shooters being compensated to win trophies (Cooper, Satterlee). Sponsors love it sure. But the new guy isn't going to score well in a division. Eventually divisions may become distinct challenges within themselves so guys can compete against other shooters with equal challenges. At the moment the numbers do not support adding more divisions.

Poll 10 new shooters over the year at their very first match and ask them what division they are shooting and why they are legal for that division. Nobody knows or I would argue would even care. Now poll them on what Class they are shooting. They are new so first match, new shooter, least experienced class. They are now shooting against people of equal skill.

One small point regarding 5 round mags - In no reality is shooting LESS going to attract or bring people back to a match.

I agree with most of what you have laid out. I did not think you are addressing the intimidation of new shooters going to a match. I think you nailed how to keep them engaged once they are there, but getting people, who are otherwise out shooting noncompetitively anyway, to come out and help grow this thing is the issue. I agree that catering to the bottom 80% helps everything go better. Just looking to make the initial transition easier, and maintain the culture of awesomeness we are teetering on losing.

 

[silhouette]

Most of the disciplines that are shot at our club have grades.
C, B,A, Masters, etc.
That way, you don't just have the same 3 place getters at every match and the rest are just "gap fillers".
It's a system that works and the fairest distribution of the prize table.
I think the PRS and NRL would benefit from adopting this.

 

[mmlook]

make a rookie division.

same CoF, same targets, same rules as open.

double the time
only available to first year shooters

 

[Dthomas3523]

You’ll almost never be able to remove the ego/intimidation factor. Generally speaking, most will almost always be a little gun shy about their first match. Some are afraid of being embarrassed as they feel like they know/should know how to handle a rifle. Others let gear intimidate them.

The best ways to combat this are open range days where they can come out and shoot without as much pressure. Offer to help them if they’d like and invite them to a match.

Incentives such as new shooter shoots match free their first match and the shooter who brought them (if applicable) gets free or 50% off for that match. This incentivizes all parties, both the new and seasoned shooter to pitch in the effort.

As far as divisions, the guys at Tx Precision Matches in navasota/college station area have it down really well. They get 80 ish shooters every month. They break it down into three divisions:

80% + = pro
50-79% = sharpshooter
Under 50% = marksman
(This was last time I checked)

Score into the next division three matches and you move up. Nothing fancy. And they fill their matches all the time.

 

[lts1ow]

Do folks really need a division in order to compete?

 

[delfuego]

If you can afford the extra steel, maybe have a big and small target with a short and long time limit? Keeps the COF/ Round Count / Gear essentially the same. Less overhead for you to manage. Anything that requires you to inspect people's gear will be a pain and you might end up with drama and people trying to game the system.

 

[Forward543]

Do folks really need a division in order to compete?

There are people who are still intimidated. As stated before, that's what an ego will do for you. I don't want to pander to anyyones ego trip, but am not against including people on the edge. I agree on who gives a shit how others shoot, but alot of people place alot of value in beating someone. They play a dangerous game of validating there actions from how they shoot. I do not want to expand that, I would like to get people who will expand this community involved.

 

[delfuego]

Our matches in Colorado never had any real separate divisions. We did have ladies, seniors, juniors and FNG. FNG class was usually for your first and second match and you won your entry fee back. I think a big piece was always the community and family. New shooters would suck (me too), but everyone was so cool to each other and helpful that people wanted to return for the fun and camaraderie. Once people have fun they will return and likely spend money on new more appropriate gear. Squading new shooters with experienced shooters helps a lot too. High hit percentage matches help confidence. Good shooter will always be on top, but going home after hitting less that 10 targets is not much fun.

 

[Moose72]

Good day!

Let me preface by saying I have never competed or been to a PRS competition. I’m intrigued, but have yet to make the plunge.

I have a few suggestions, hope you don’t mind. First, your social media needs to step up a bit in attracting people, especially the younger generation. The PRS instagram account as over 35k followers, but the amount of likes and comments they are getting is terrible. You need to have more organic followers, when someone ( which isn’t often) comments, try to make it a point to acknowledge and respond. Also, tag the people who win/place and put their instagram handle in, if they have one. It would be cool if you had the winners explain about the day’s events Went, what they liked, they didn’t, how they practice, etc. Add some personality to the posts. FYI- The gram is for The younger generations as Facebook is geared more towards Adults. Snap chat is the platform where most hs and college students are on. My students (College and Hs) keep me updated on social media. Don’t get me started on Tik Tok. Lol

I like the idea of having a mentor stay with newer shooters, that helps alleviate some of the nerves of the newbies. The mentor could explain and show them how to shoot said stage, offer tips, tricks, etc. You could also incorporate a trophy or reward for the MoM ( Mentor of Match). The mentor whose group of shooters shoots the best gets something. Im sure you can come up with some cool unique awards. The very least a gift card to dinner or for coffee would probably be suffice.

The big issue I see is the number and places of said matches. If you want to get more to participate you need to have more, maybe smaller( in length /cof) matches across more regions of the states you’re competing in. This gives more people options and chances to attend. Majority of people are working more than ever and sometimes taking a day or two off on weekend is a big hit in the pocket books. I hear some say it’s not that expensive to do a competition, but once you factor in time away from work, ammo, food, gas it adds up. Its costly to compete I don’t care what sport you’re in, which brings me to my next point.

In regards to the smaller comps, maybe have closer distances, not everyone has access to 500 plus ranges, so if one can‘t practice at those ranges they feel they won’t get better. Playing sports most of my life, you practice like it’s game time. So if one can’t get to a range that is more than 200 yards, what can we do? Some will say by a rimfire, what if one dosen‘t have money for that too. If one is buying a rimfire, might as well compete with that instead.

Has anyone reached out to local Highschools /college that have rifle times and make an introduction and offer some help and explain your sport? I teach HS and college kids, and I have kids from the city and country and not one has heard of PRS. Most hunt and they use what they have on the farm or what their dad or grandfather uses. The ones that shoot targets, they mostly have AR’s and hand guns.

Some say it’s not a gear race, it is. if it wasn’t, it would be like nascar, where there’s ‘Strict’ restrictions where everyone has just about the same setup. I don’t have a problem that it is a gear race,because again it’s a competition, use whatever tool you can afford to help you Win. When I played ball in Hs and college, I had all my pads built for my body type and some would say that wasn’t fair, but I was within the rules and had the means and the custom pads offered me have an edge against my competition. So in regards to gear, can you have have gun rentals( like they do at at skeet and clay shoots) and ammo for the new shooters to rent and use? I know that adds to cost, but if you’re trying to attract people, that may help, not everyone has a gun setup they can compete with, dam some may not even have a gun, but want to give it a whirl. This would be one less variable to look at. I know some will say so and so shooter will use a stock rifle off so and so shelf and win. Ok, then why does one need a 3,4,5k custom Rifle (not including scope) then? They don’t, but why do the majority of shooters have customs-Just to waste money? Hmm When was the last shooter who won the whole PRS league with an off the shelf factory Gun? Again, I don’t care what they use, but when you start grouping people with full blown rigs, vs people who don’t or can’t afford them, one has an advantage.

Yes, the rig doesn't make the shooter -so if you have an amateur division where all newbie shooters compete, different cof and different distances, that may help too. Newbies can be classified new until x amount of matches have been completed. I know having different targets, distances etc for amateurs is going to be more work, but if you genuinely and wholeheartedly want to grow this sport it’s going to take time, hardwork,Teamwork, patience, perseverance and the want.

I have a few more suggestions, but typing on my iPad is a pain, so when I get to my laptop I’ll add if you like.I also apologize for spelling or grammatical errors, my fat fingers don’t navigate to well on this device. Lol

Again, these are just my thoughts, take it for what’s it worth, free. Haha

 

[chaosgadoury]

Classes would work for the larger matches (Rookie, Semi-Pro, Pro). Maybe 50+ people so less than 20% are placing.

Most people have a great time, but the guys that are consistently on the bottom rarely shoot matches for long. Once you achieve a certain hit rate you would class up, but also if you start to suck you class down. Most people like to see concrete improvement over time or enthusiasm wanes. Placing in their class or moving up a class would be a big deal for most shooters regardless of how they do compared to the best.

For the big matches prizes could align with what a regular person in that class needs.

 

[7mmMato]

New shooter here. Have shot 5 matches this year so far. While I know I suck at this game I still enjoy it and am not ashamed of my scores. I have good stages and bad. I can see putting more time on the clock for new shooters as helping quite a bit. Trying to find the targets and build a good position eats a lot of time. I spend a lot of time on the binoculars so that helps me a lot in knowing were the targets are. Sometimes you don't get it figured out until your 3rd or 4th shot and then you run out of time when you might of hit a few more targets. I have done quite a bit of the NRL 22 shoots so that helped me quite a bit before jumping into the PRS stuff. I highly recommend new shooters to go to some .22 matches all the fun of PRS with less cost and noise. Great training for dialing your scope or holding over. Ive shot competition shotgun and archery and have done some drag racing. But this rifle game is entire new level fun. Even if I do suck.

 

[AnimalMother224]

experienced shooter thats new to the spot this year chiming in.

Ill say this year is the worst year to get into this sport with matches being canceled so any polling or data you gain from new shooters may not be raw and authentic.

my suggestion.. assign mentors that are attached to the hip to rookies for their first and second matches. non-ego maniacs that are accomplished shooters, very experienced in the sport, has the gear to share/teach with, but dont lose their shit when a stage goes bad. this may be hard to find these people naturally but they are out there. you would have to supply some incentive for the mentors to want to do this. either a discount for the match cost or credit towards another one or bonus points or some shit. additionally make it an incentive for the rookie to voluntarily sign up for a mentor, discounted match cost or something. I dont really know. Mentors will be in charge of safety and rules/regs explanation. stage COF explanation. Allow for on the clock/stage coaching from the mentor. Remember the saying "crawl/walk/run". everything designed for this sport starts with a sprint it seams ..


simply put. someone who can aid in a rookies success in having a positive experience by taking the pressure off for not having the best (or any) gear, knowledge or experience.

 

[delfuego]

assign mentors that are attached to the hip to rookies for their first and second matches.

Experienced shooter are out there competing and trying to win matches. They are not there to babysit. Experienced shooters are almost always out there helping new shooters naturally. Most experienced shooters are also happy to help and will loan any gear they have because they are good folks, but it's not their job to hold new shooters hands. Most matches will have "Squad Moms" to assist in score keeping, finding targets, explaining COF and range safety. You cannot burden experienced shooters, you cannot expect them to sacrifice their match. Some of us drive 2+ hours each way for a local one day match, we're there to shoot. Coddling new shooters will not help them. They need to come out and shoot, suck, want to improve and come back out and do it again. You decide your own level of involvement in Fight Club.

 

[AnimalMother224]

Experienced shooter are out there competing and trying to win matches. They are not there to babysit. Experienced shooters are almost always out there helping new shooters naturally. Most experienced shooters are also happy to help and will loan any gear they have because they are good folks, but it's not their job to hold new shooters hands. Most matches will have "Squad Moms" to assist in score keeping, finding targets, explaining COF and range safety. You cannot burden experienced shooters, you cannot expect them to sacrifice their match. Some of us drive 2+ hours each way for a local one day match, we're there to shoot. Coddling new shooters will not help them. They need to come out and shoot, suck, want to improve and come back out and do it again. You decide your own level of involvement in Fight Club.

its voluntary dude... no burden to anyone who doesn't want it..

 

[aslrookie]

As someone who casually competes in long range, I think the issue isn’t necessarily just divisions, classes, and equipment but that does play a huge role. I think it’s PRS itself. The competition is fancy F-class the way it currently sits.

The field matches are much more appealing to me like competition dynamics and snipers hide cup. They more closely replicate practical shooting. It’s not on a nice flat range with target markers and ranges given and only one wind call needed for the day because you’re always shooting in the same direction.

You get new shooters and retain them by giving them something they want. Having some experienced shooter with a $7k full custom rig give you tips and tricks will not cut it. Imagine going racing and the top driver in a brand new all top spec takes you around the track in his car...shows you where to turn, brake, accelerate and pass people. Now you gotta get in your stock camaro and do the same? Nah, not going to work.

The scoring is dumb too. Why a par time of 90-120 seconds? Just get rid of the par time and score it like USPSA where time vs penalties for misses. People should be rewarded for faster and more accurate shooting and slower shooters shouldn’t be paying money to not even finish a stage because they didn’t have an extra 30 seconds for the last two targets.

The entire PRS needs an overhaul.

 

[AnimalMother224]

As someone who casually competes in long range, I think the issue isn’t necessarily just divisions, classes, and equipment but that does play a huge role. I think it’s PRS itself. The competition is fancy F-class the way it currently sits.

The field matches are much more appealing to me like competition dynamics and snipers hide cup. They more closely replicate practical shooting. It’s not on a nice flat range with target markers and ranges given and only one wind call needed for the day because you’re always shooting in the same direction.

You get new shooters and retain them by giving them something they want. Having some experienced shooter with a $7k full custom rig give you tips and tricks will not cut it. Imagine going racing and the top driver in a brand new all top spec takes you around the track in his car...shows you where to turn, brake, accelerate and pass people. Now you gotta get in your stock camaro and do the same? Nah, not going to work.

The scoring is dumb too. Why a par time of 90-120 seconds? Just get rid of the par time and score it like USPSA where time vs penalties for misses. People should be rewarded for faster and more accurate shooting and slower shooters shouldn’t be paying money to not even finish a stage because they didn’t have an extra 30 seconds for the last two targets.

The entire PRS needs an overhaul.

on the contrary. when someone starts in the sport with base level stuff and they decide to stay (which trends to the actual problem, retention).. the first thing they do is upgrade their rig. why not have an experienced competitor give suggestions on what smart money is and what isn't.

 

[delfuego]

As someone who casually competes in long range, I think the issue isn’t necessarily just divisions, classes, and equipment but that does play a huge role. I think it’s PRS itself. The competition is fancy F-class the way it currently sits.

The field matches are much more appealing to me like competition dynamics and snipers hide cup. They more closely replicate practical shooting. It’s not on a nice flat range with target markers and ranges given and only one wind call needed for the day because you’re always shooting in the same direction.

You get new shooters and retain them by giving them something they want. Having some experienced shooter with a $7k full custom rig give you tips and tricks will not cut it. Imagine going racing and the top driver in a brand new all top spec takes you around the track in his car...shows you where to turn, brake, accelerate and pass people. Now you gotta get in your stock camaro and do the same? Nah, not going to work.

The scoring is dumb too. Why a par time of 90-120 seconds? Just get rid of the par time and score it like USPSA where time vs penalties for misses. People should be rewarded for faster and more accurate shooting and slower shooters shouldn’t be paying money to not even finish a stage because they didn’t have an extra 30 seconds for the last two targets.

The entire PRS needs an overhaul.

You almost had me, until you dragged car racing and USPSA into this. Car racing has nothing in common with shooting at all. USPSA is about missing fast, making up shots and total time w/penalties, nothing like rifle shooting. In my opinion, we should get one shot per target with no make ups, 2 at most. 1 point per impact, and no time bonus. Keep it simple. Stage times help people keep moving, without them we would be at the range for +8 hours and the MD's for 10+. MD's and RO's need to make home to eat dinner sometime today...

PMS shooting is mostly ridiculous to me. Most stages are 1 piece of steel and 1 gimmick per stage. I think it teaches a lot of bad habits and not enough good ones. That being said, PMS style shooting is all I have available to shoot in my area (within 5 hours), so that is all I get to shoot lately. 10 position 90-120 second stages are dumb, plain and simple.

I am too lazy to create the match I want to shoot, so I shoot the matches I have.
Lots of people keep saying that the sport needs to change...
The world is full of problem identifiers.

 

[Tactical Taz]

I ran a local match a couple weeks ago and will share some of the feedback I got. I have run a few matches and realize it is difficult to make a COF that both advanced shooters and new shooters are challenged by and appreciate. The common complaint of new shooters was not being able to engage all of the targets. Getting 5-8 shots off still seemed to frustrate some/most of them. My targets were not big, being 2-4 moa. I designed the COF to have only 1-2 positions per stage with one stage having 3. I tend towards more targets than just a single target, however, I gave 2-4 attempts on a target per position. I designed the COF to be more generous for the first position or two and/or first sets of targets. The wind and rain also contributed to the difficulty that day.

The problem for new shooters I found and recall from when I started a few years ago is finding targets during a stage. Therefore, I have wondered about a division for new shooters with longer par times and/or starting in the first position.

Ideally, I would run the matches with 2 sets of targets also. A thought on this would be that the new shooter division isnt required to shoot the bigger targets necessarily. Perhaps giving the option to shoot either target sets per stage would put the ball in their court so to speak on performance. As I have described it, each set of targets would probably have to be worth different points (I dont know how points would specifically work out).

As far as getting brand new shooters to show up, I am not sure if a new shooter division will really entice people to show up or not. As someone who ran a precision rifle student organization at a college, our biggest turnout has been for an mach match day. We had a few stages setup where one of the more experienced shooters stayed at a stage and walked the squad through how to shoot it. We would give them a chance to shoot it with a par time so they could get an idea for how fast it goes (I think that kind of makes the hook).

I do agree also, that making a match more practical and geared towards hunters and less of the gimmicky PRS stuff, to me, would be more appealing to the hunting type crowd and newer shooters. I do not think limiting gear and or rounds in a magazine to 5 is the answer.

 

[Crabcore]

I think that we can all agree that if the PRS was interested in improving, they missed a golden opportunity while every match in the country was postponed. I don't have the answer, but I do know it was disappointing to see the organization do nothing the last few months. Maybe next year they can raise the entry price of production class again.

 

[Forward543]

We have been running a class that has 70% of the cof as the open. It works well and gets interest. This way you can shoot whatever you want, and have more time. A top loader is fine. The match director does not have to change much, and it gives a different class. When designing the cof, you can modify to make the first positions the easier ones. This gives separation for the open, and let's the beginners shoot and score with the open. Most everyone starting out struggles to get to the last shots anyway. When they feel like they have the first positions nailed, they move to the open. Very little hassle and then they compete against peers. No real known way to cheat it.
I was mostly just trying to get the subject out, and see what everyone is up to. I don't really care what the national operation is up to as far as club matches. Bigger matches are fun. Balancing a match to distribute scoring is a challenge, but interesting. Lots of opinions from people not building or involved, which is good and bad. This sport is not big enough to have a stand alone production removed from the participants. Keep these ideas coming.

 

[308pirate]

deleted

 

[308pirate]

Maybe don't make any gear restrictions, just make it pro / amateur restriction type.

The fact that there isn't a single successful shooting sport in the world that works that way should be a clue...…...

 

[Tx_Aggie]

A range local to me is doing a "Train up" day specifically targeted at new and novice shooters, plus those placing in the bottom 50% at club matches. Shooters will be organized into squads the same way they would be in a match, but instead of shooting for score, there will be a experienced shooter at each stage who will coach the squad through shooting that specific stage. The stage coach will give each shooter some personalized instruction, and shooters will have the opportunity to shoot a stage at least twice before rotating on to a new stage.

Plus, the day is priced cheaper than a the going rate for 1 day matches in our region, and there's a small added incentive for anyone who participates to come back and shoot a club match later in the summer in the form of a partial credit towards a match fee.

I really think events like this, specifically targeted at introducing shooters to precision rifle competition outside of a match environment, with coaching and guidance from seasoned shooters who are there because they want to grow the sport, would make a bigger impact than a new division or trying to further complicate the rules or match organization.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Being a former match director, I learned two points.

1. You have to hook em
2. You have to get em INTO the boat.

Getting people to the match is an issue all to itself. Having shooters bring friends, having lots of opportunities at the local range to shoot at prospective targets and having lots of national coverage on commercial outlets are all the ideas I have in this regard.

The second point is much harder. Getting the first times to become repeaters is, in my mind, the hard part. If they could not succeed, they quit coming back. Running an IHMSA match for several years, this is the problem I had. Our sport was hard and all the mentoring we could provide simply could not replace real word talent and practice.

So, my thought is, the fun of shooting silhouette is SHOOTING silhouettes, not shooting AT silhouettes. The fun of PRS is Shooting targets, not shooting AT targets, killing dirt is pretty much a waste of time as most dirt is already pretty much dead. With that thought in mind, some stages might be set that are easy, almost ridiculously easy. Other stages should have some challenge and finally other stages should be set to challenge the very best shooters. In this way, beginners (or us who are too old to shoot effectively) can enjoy success and be challenged to improve. The most difficult stages will separate the excellent from the good and the very good. Something for everyone.

I wanted to fundamentally change the COF to make it easier for beginners, unfortunately it fell on deaf ears. Most regular shooters wanted it hard. However, taking years to master, can hurt any sport. These are my thoughts from experience.

 

[PAYDIRT]

Some guys like it, some don't. My personal range goes out to a grand easy, I often have small matches 25ish rounds, I know about a dozen guys with precision style rifles that live within 15 miles. Take a wild guess at how many show up to shoot a friendly match with no entry fee?? I've even had 5 round, huge targets, and tons of time on the clock so the "hunters" might wanna shoot. It doesn't matter, the guys that wanna play, show up and shoot, the guys that don't, go to Lowes to pick out curtains with their wife.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Being a former match director, I learned two points.

1. You have to hook em
2. You have to get em INTO the boat.

Getting people to the match is an issue all to itself. Having shooters bring friends, having lots of opportunities at the local range to shoot at prospective targets and having lots of national coverage on commercial outlets are all the ideas I have in this regard.

The second point is much harder. Getting the first times to become repeaters is, in my mind, the hard part. If they could not succeed, they quit coming back. Running an IHMSA match for several years, this is the problem I had. Our sport was hard and all the mentoring we could provide simply could not replace real word talent and practice.

So, my thought is, the fun of shooting silhouette is SHOOTING silhouettes, not shooting AT silhouettes. The fun of PRS is Shooting targets, not shooting AT targets, killing dirt is pretty much a waste of time as most dirt is already pretty much dead. With that thought in mind, some stages might be set that are easy, almost ridiculously easy. Other stages should have some challenge and finally other stages should be set to challenge the very best shooters. In this way, beginners (or us who are too old to shoot effectively) can enjoy success and be challenged to improve. The most difficult stages will separate the excellent from the good and the very good. Something for everyone.

I wanted to fundamentally change the COF to make it easier for beginners, unfortunately it fell on deaf ears. Most regular shooters wanted it hard. However, taking years to master, can hurt any sport. These are my thoughts from experience.

One of our local club series does a good job of this, and really an excellent job all around of being inviting to new shooters.

They set most stages with a small array of targets at one or sometimes several ranges. The target sizes start large (sometimes as large as 4 moa), and decrease. For example, a 3 moa, and 1.5 moa square plate at 450, and another similar array at 650. 2 positions, shoot the squares from large to small at each distance, change positions, and repeat, with a total of 3 positions. Or maybe an array of 3 plates at one distance, with 3 or 4 total positions. Or a troop line with 5 or 6 distances and a large and small plate at each distance.

The large plates make it so even novice shooters will have the satisfaction of getting hits, and the smaller targets are there to separate and challenge the more skilled shooters.

These guys also make it a point to mentor new shooters, generally allow new guys to keep shooting even after time is up (not for score, but because they are there to shoot and should have a good experience). They often use experienced shooters as squad moms/ROs, and most of those guys will coach new shooters some during the match, sometimes even shoot stages first to give newer guys an idea of how to deal with a prop or odd ball shooting position.

They're a huge part of why I started shooting PRS style matches and are some of the best ambassadors for the shooting sports that I've ever met.

 

[RTV]

I agree with most of what you have laid out. I did not think you are addressing the intimidation of new shooters going to a match. I think you nailed how to keep them engaged once they are there, but getting people, who are otherwise out shooting noncompetitively anyway, to come out and help grow this thing is the issue. I agree that catering to the bottom 80% helps everything go better. Just looking to make the initial transition easier, and maintain the culture of awesomeness we are teetering on losing.

thats easy... people think you need a rig several thousands of dollars just to go out and be competitive enough to have fun.
no one wants to get curb stomped because they only have a 3 gun rifle or a hunting rifle or whatever other range toy they put their money into
and this is an expensive sport so no one wants to drop money on even a "starting" rig which will be at least around 1000$ when they dont know if they will like it.

word of mouth is how you get people coming. explain that you will be competing with over novices. that you can still have a fun time and learn a lot and that fi you really have nothing then there may be a loaner gun available.

this is from the perspective of someone who was convinced to try PRS for the first time by the RO at the local range.
who suckered me in and got me pumped up and lurking the PRS subforum just by convincing me that the gear i already have (basic AR15 with a LPVO) will be enough to
get out and have fun.

 

[Forward543]

thats easy... people think you need a rig several thousands of dollars just to go out and be competitive enough to have fun.
no one wants to get curb stomped because they only have a 3 gun rifle or a hunting rifle or whatever other range toy they put their money into
and this is an expensive sport so no one wants to drop money on even a "starting" rig which will be at least around 1000$ when they dont know if they will like it.

word of mouth is how you get people coming. explain that you will be competing with over novices. that you can still have a fun time and learn a lot and that fi you really have nothing then there may be a loaner gun available.

this is from the perspective of someone who was convinced to try PRS for the first time by the RO at the local range.
who suckered me in and got me pumped up and lurking the PRS subforum just by convincing me that the gear i already have (basic AR15 with a LPVO) will be enough to
get out and have fun.

For sure you can learn alot and have a great time with any weapon system. You will likely struggle to do phenomenal with equipment not suited, but if you can get people to drop the ego and come shoot, they will most likely have a good time.

 

[Gus513]

I think to get more people into sport you need to introduce them in a non comp environment, "meet the PRS" so they can see the gear, feel the guns, so they can make determination what to spend, bust some caps on targets etc. But in the end you will only get people that want to compete and they are already shooting PRS or something else.

 

[mpk1996]

I find a lot of these comments, especially from the folks who say they haven’t shot or only shot a couple matches, to be very funny.

the fact is, this is a game. It’s not hunting practice. Just like uspsa and 3 gun are games with rules and not combat practice. So please remember that. The reason I mention this is two fold. First not every stage setup will be what some consider “practical”. Yes I get it you might do something different in hunting. But remember the competition has gotten very very good. So to separate out the top some “skills” are required and tested at matches. Also the opposite is true. Because a stage setup is “practical” doesn’t mean it’s a good fit for a match. It has to be able to test skill over the course of the day, and not luck. The best shooter should win. Not the luckiest.

honesty, most of what you guys are saying for new guys is how a one day regional match is run. The CoF will have several stages set up for new shooters (easy) so they get their hits and enjoy it. Then a couple harder stages to separate the top. It’s also good for the new shooters to see those so they see where they need to go. I know when I shoot them and I know I have a bunch of new shooters, I brief the stage and go over some strategies and gotchas. We give wind calls on the clock and help as needed. Also I usually will give pointers after the shooter is done on how their form could improve if I see something they could do better.

as far as the scoring and par times go, you really want this. We need to keep these matches moving. We can’t let guys be up there for 5 min trying to find targets and taking forever to make a shot. Honestly, most of this shooting isn’t that hard if you had unlimited time. And then the scoring becomes real hard. How do you weigh a hit vs time? It’s not unlimited rounds like uspsa. So if I burn through a stage in 30s but only hit 8 tgts and another guy hits 10, but takes 80s, who wins? This is precision rifle. Also the stages are usually designed to take the par time for a mid pack shooter. There are tie breaker stages that time and hits do matter. The one day matches also usually have a longer par time than a national level 2 day match.

honestly, most of the major “complaints” have been addressed and are in place already. So I suggest stop complaining on the hide and coming out and shooting a match.