an observation on ANNEALING

selfbowhunter

selfbowhunter

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Minuteman
Jan 6, 2006
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#1
i annealed my first brass a few days ago. i had to hold it in the flame a lot longer than i thought to see a change in color and finally decided on 15 seconds. i know i over annealed it because the case mouths are pretty soft and often dent when ejecting from the receiver. i have at least 5 loads on the brass since then and i have to admit, i was very leary the first few shots but the rifle is shooting very well and i dont see any issues with the brass. the bullet seat very smoothly with even pressure. can someone please tell me the issues with over annealing? thanks.

chuck
 
#2
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

If you over anneal (too much heat) you burn the zinc out of it. This in turn makes the brass brittle and will result in cracked necks. For a duration of 15 seconds you must be using a low temperature. At what temperature was the brass annealed at? If you over anneal (too long at low temperature) the heat will migrate to the case head weakening the web in the case head... not good. Using a good heat sink helps, but you're flirting with danger.
 
#3
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

i used a plumbers torch so the flame was plenty hot. how many loadings until the brass get brittle and cracks? like i said, i have probably 5 loadings since the brass was annealed and the necks are still soft. i realize you dont want to get the case head hot but i think the neck area would melt before the case head got that hot. how many seconds do you hold it in the flame?

chuck
 
#4
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

On .308, I hold them at the tip of the inner jet for ~8 seconds.

The question concerning how many loadings is a crap shoot. I cannot give an estimate, only advice to keep close watch over them and cull them when one cracks. If you made it to 5 loadings, then they're probably okay. With brittle brass, they often don't survive the first firing and it's almost a guarantee not to survive the second (thinking FL resizing, they can go longer if partial neck sizing).

All the case head has to do is reach 450°, grain structure realignment starts at approx. that temperature and brass starts to soften. That torch is putting out more than enough heat to get the head that hot (remember, heat flows from the neck to the case head and the flame also flows into the case as well).
 
#5
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

Just don't over heat the neck. Depending on your flame, 3-5 seconds may be enough. The brass does not need to be fully annealed, as the benefits of the molecular changes start much lower than that. It is better to under anneal than over anneal. If it even begins to glow red, you are 200 degrees too hot and the brass will be too soft. Drop the case into a bucket of water immediately after applying heat to stop any heat flow towards the base.

TC
 
#6
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

"If you over anneal (too much heat) you burn the zinc out of it. This in turn makes the brass brittle and will result in cracked necks."

Actually, it's the reverse. Over heating brass will make it dead soft, leaving too little (real) neck tension for good powder burn and that decreases accuracy. If it glows red it's too hot and there is no way to restore it.
 
#8
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

Use a LC or FA new unfired ammo as a color guide. If you are the same color as these you are there. If it is dark blue you ruined it.
I got a hundred cases too hot and turned them dark blue. They loaded beautifully and I thought I was good to go. I loaded them all up and opened box two years later and 75% of the necks had split.

Food for thought. At the arsenals and commercial loading they run cases down a series of gas jet flames and drop them in a hopper. They do not drop in water. Dropping them in water only creates more work to dry them out. If they pros don't see a need to do it I do not see the logic of doing it.
I heat mine in a rotary holder in a electric drill and drop them in hopper. I can immediately reach down and pick one up by head if it misses with no burns. If you hold it a while it will get a bit hot but not in the feared range of softening heads.

case in point, if you get brass hot enough to stress relieve you are good to go. Obviously if the blue doesn't continue all the way to the head then you haven't gotten it enough. You can heat a case red hot and ruin it and drop it and the blue won't continue to the head. If head isn't blue you haven't hurt it.

I had some Norma brass once and a third of it broke in half on first firing when I sized it down to 6.5 Daudeteau.
I realized the brass was very hard so I stress relieved it and took the blue half way down the case body! ! ! Must be OK as I have had that brass and loaded it since 82.
Now I only do the neck/shoulder as the body did not get hard again.
 
#10
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

One to two seconds? Is that doing anything (serious question, because I'm new to annealing)? Maybe I'm doing it wrong / over annealing.

I've been adjusting my torch so that the lower blue flame is about an inch long and holding my shoulders / necks in the blue part of the flame for 5-6 seconds for .223 and 7-8 seconds for .308. That's one or two seconds longer than a couple of recommendations from earlier threads, but the color of the brass wasn't changing below the shoulder unless I held them in a tad longer.

I've noticed that my case necks usually are a duller / slightly off color yellow instead of more whitish / bluish. I'm not even sure I'm annealing enough, but I figured less is better than more.
 
#11
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former0302</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One to two seconds? Is that doing anything (serious question, because I'm new to annealing)? Maybe I'm doing it wrong / over annealing.

I've been adjusting my torch so that the lower blue flame is about an inch long and holding my shoulders / necks in the blue part of the flame for 5-6 seconds for .223 and 7-8 seconds for .308. That's one or two seconds longer than a couple of recommendations from earlier threads, but the color of the brass wasn't changing below the shoulder unless I held them in a tad longer.

I've noticed that my case necks usually are a duller / slightly off color yellow instead of more whitish / bluish. I'm not even sure I'm annealing enough, but I figured less is better than more.

</div></div>

Here you go. I thought this was a good video although I think he might be over doin it. Everyone is different...main concern is over annealing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=190rC0iTN5M&feature=related
 
#13
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

Geez...if only I had an extra $400 dollars sitin around...which I dont. I think Ill stick with tried a trued torch and a bucket of water. I guess if your reloading thousands of rounds a month this would be a great added tool for that guy. No offense but I dont see the added worth to some of us who only reload a couple of different cartridges.
 
#15
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

BDH,

I'm no metalurgist, not by any stretch! The dude in that Youtube vid. held the torch on those cases inconsistently as all hell. Some as long as 14 seconds, some as little as 4.

I think a little more precision is in order when lighting up 60,000 psi right next to my head!
 
#16
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

I agree...like I said he looked to me like he was over annealing but I did like the water tray concept. I use the drill and it hasnt let me down yet. Again everyone is different.
 
#17
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

That brass in that youtube video will be Fu*ked . He is only heating one side and way too hot at that.
Just dipping the neck in molten lead for a few seconds will do a better more even and safer job than that .
How often you should anneal has as much to do with your die system as firing shots.
Every time you size or expand the brass it work hardens.
Even neck hardness around the whole neck diameter is more important than how hard or soft it actually is within reason.
The bullet seater can do a better straighter job if the radial neck tension is more even .
A case neck does not work harden very evenly and it varies from case to case.
Annealing just reduces the affect of those hardness variations by bringing the brass to a more consistant state.
Even cleaning products can harden brass such as ammonia bassed solvents.
Brass can get harder by just laying around getting older ( Sounds like me ) .
Then there is stress corrosion that can shrink and harden brass and even cause splitting after long term storage usually in bad conditions.
 
#18
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bdh308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a lee case holder on a drill and spin the case neck over a torch for abot 1 to 2 sec drop it in a bucket of water. Done. </div></div>

By dropping the case into water after heating it up.....you are hardening it instead of softening it like you want. Rapid cooling of any metals by water does this. Basic metallurgy will explain this process too you. This link should help some of you understand the "annealing" process a little better.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

I personally use the Brass-O-Matic annealing system. It works awesome.

http://www.zephyrdynamics.com/page3.html
 
#19
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Orddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bdh308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a lee case holder on a drill and spin the case neck over a torch for abot 1 to 2 sec drop it in a bucket of water. Done. </div></div>

By dropping the case into water after heating it up.....you are hardening it instead of softening it like you want. Rapid cooling of any metals by water does this. </div></div>

That is incorrect...quenching has no hardening effect on brass and is not a necessary part of the annealing process. The purpose of quenching the brass is to prevent heat from flowing to the base. It may not be necessary if the case is long enough.

TC
 
#20
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Top Cat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Orddy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bdh308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use a lee case holder on a drill and spin the case neck over a torch for abot 1 to 2 sec drop it in a bucket of water. Done. </div></div>

By dropping the case into water after heating it up.....you are hardening it instead of softening it like you want. Rapid cooling of any metals by water does this. </div></div>

That is incorrect...quenching has no hardening effect on brass and is not a necessary part of the annealing process. The purpose of quenching the brass is to prevent heat from flowing to the base. It may not be necessary if the case is long enough.

TC </div></div>
I agree with this also , I have not found that quenching in water makes brass any harder as far as I can tell.
Brass does not behave like a carbon tool steel and harden when it is quenched , pure copper softens when it is quenched , brass which is copper and zinc is some place in the middle .
 
#22
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

there is so much BS being throw around in this thread, i'm not sure it still has any value.

for example, the boiling point of zinc is 907c, and the melting point of cartridge brass(C260) is 915c. by the time you start boiling the zinc ("burn the zinc out of it"), the brass would physically deform from the heat. and even if you did manage to burn off some surface zinc, it would not be a large enough percentage to effect the ductility of the brass. btw... removing zinc turns brass to copper, which would SOFTEN it, not "make it brittle". the zinc is what hardens the copper so it becomes brass.

in metallurgy, "brittleness" is caused by the correlation between grain structure and hardness. larger crystals (as in annealed metal) allow for fewer grain boundaries and thus are less brittle. conversely, cold working breaks the large crystals into smaller ones and creates more boundaries (or fault lines) and makes a crack more likely.

with cartridge brass the problem of annealing (with exception of the case head) is not that the metal will become brittle with heat, rather that it will become "to soft" to retain the desired elasticity. however, given the cold working properties of c260; if one does exceed the desired temperature and "over anneal" it, you can work the hardness back into spec by using it for its intended purpose (firing and resizing) once or twice. if that makes one nervous, you should not be in the habit of firing weapons near your face on a regular basis to begin with. i will gladly accept a of your "ruined" overheated brass (to save you from the "dangers" of firing it).

here is some actual information about cartridge brass. read it and make your own decisions about how to anneal, instead of reading information provided by someone selling you an (expensive) contraption for a relatively straight forward process.


The following specifications cover Copper Alloys C260(C26000)

* ASTM B129
* ASTM B134
* ASTM B135
* ASTM B19 (Square Tube)
* ASTM B36
* ASTM B569
* ASTM B587
* MIL C-10375
* MIL S-22499
* MIL T-20219
* SAE J461
* SAE J463
* UNS C26000




Property Results

* Brass, C260
* Cartridge Brass, C260

Chemistry Data : [top]

Copper 68.5 - 71.5
Iron 0.05 max
Lead 0.07 max
Remainder Each Zn

Principal Design Features
Brasses (Copper-Zinc Alloy), Cartridge Brass, 70%. C26000 has the highest ductility in the yellow brass series. Easily machined but is more often cold formed.
Applications
Primarily used for hot or cold-formed products.

Welding

Soldering is rated as "excellent", brazing is rated as "excellent", oxyacetylene welding is rated as "good", gas shielded arc welding is rated as "fair", coated metal arc welding is "not recommended", spot welding is rated as "good", seam welding is "not recommended" and butt welding is rated as "good".

Forging

The hot forgeability rating of this alloy is not given. (Forging Brass=100). The recommended hot working temperature for this alloy is between 1350 and 1550 F.

Hot Working

This alloy's capacity for being hot formed is rated as "fair".

Cold Working

The capacity for cold working this alloy is rated as "excellent".

Annealing

The annealing temperature for this alloy is between 800 and 1400 F.

Physical Data : [top]


Density (lb / cu. in.) 0.308
Electrical Resistivity (microhm-cm (at 68 Deg F)) 37
Melting Point (Deg F) 1680
Modulus of Elasticity Tension 16000
 
#23
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

"there is so much BS being throw around in this thread, i'm not sure it still has any value."

Now there is the quote of the decade, and I couldn't agree more.

Question: Would someone please explain why if the ammo industry runs lines of millions of rounds down through gas flames (segment on History channel shows this clearly lasting about six seconds being done by this fly by night outfit called Winchester) and they have no problem "with heat running down the case". Same is done at Lake City, was done at Frankford Arsenal, Denver, Twin Cities, Saint Louis, etc and the ammo boys are doing it 24/7 these days.

Then I am specifically instructed by an AMMO DESIGN ENGINEER from Frankford Arsenal(name was Marty Tyska who I tracked down and found he is gone==good guy) He got transferred to Picatinny Arsenal when Frankford closed down and we shot matches together for years and <span style="text-decoration: underline">he clearly told me you just want to stress relieve the cases, not anneal them to dead soft</span>, NOT TO HEAT THEM TO RED, NOT TO HEAT THEM TO WHITE, and that he personally held them in his fingers using a alcohol lamp while he rotated case neck/shoulder in flame as I did for years till I saw the case holder in the drill on 6br.com (so simple it is brilliant) and I realized that was a lot faster. I find my best rotation is about 200 rpm. I have a rpm gage for checking speeds and feeds for machine shop operations and 200 rpm appears to be about right.



Note: unless someone knows what I don't case brass does not act like explosive fuse (apply match to one end and once heated to a point it starts to burn and continues to travel to other end of fuse even if match is removed).
After removing heat from neck/shoulder the heat continues to remain the same all the way to the end of the case head? Heating a neck/shoulder to red will not do this. It might travel another 1/4" but to the web area? NO.
Hint: Brass WHEN HEATED PROPERLY (as the industry does a good job of) shows a light blue tint on shoulder/neck. Brass that is not heated enough to change anything does not turn color. Thusly by looking at cases you can tell just how far the grain structure has changed. If it is DARK BLUE you have ruined it. SEE LAKE CITY BRASS FOR COLOR COMPARISON. This begs the question if DARK BLUE TINT is better, why doesn't LC or didn't all the other ammo plants heat them all the same?
Fact: Yes if you hold it in your fingers you will get burned. Third degree burns (considered by the medical community to be ill advised) occur at 155 deg F and as my friend says your fingers will tell you when to drop it. "Objects at about 54 to 55°C (130°F) will usually result in a sensation of warmth that is on the threshold of pain: it's really hot!. So, please be careful touching things just to gauge their temperature unless you have a very good reason to believe they are near to your body temperature of about 36°C or 98°F." Source: Temperatures.com

Bottom line pain at 130F and 3rd degree burns at 155 degrees.

Cases come out of a 5.56MM chamber a little over 170F. For those that will challenge this: Eject cases onto a kitchen pvc plastic trash bag and watch what happens. The cases will deform the bag and or partially melt through. Melting Point of PVC: 176°F 80°C. Source on this can be found on google.

Thusly we have cases that will deform but not melt PVC, but will cause 3rd degree burns on contact with skin and most assuredly fingers if you have a very high pain threshold. But alas the fired case head at this temp did not turn blue so logically it did not sustain heat damage by this heat level, as the brass did not change color.

Hot cases being introduced into the collars of adjacent firers have caused death when adjacent shooter involuntarily flinched and turned and shot soldiers on line next to them. Source? Army Safety Center Records documented in Aberdeen Proving Ground Test Report. Just read where this happened to a Air Force type when he got hot round down neck and flinched. Luckily guy next to him was only wounded. Source: Army Safety Center website a few months back.


Then some guy sits his brass in a pan of water (first I read of this was 50s) and heats hell out of cases (red) with a propane torch till they are ruined and he is quoted, mimicked, copied, praised, bowed down to etc as the ultimate authority who is quoted time and again.

Cotton ignites at 210C (410 deg F)and I heat my cases till they are blue and drop them directly onto cotton towel or sweat shirt or T shirt from the turning fixture in my drill. I have never achieved ignition by the cases landing and laying on cotton. I conclude by this that the case neck/shoulder has cooled to below this level in at most one second after removal from heat source. I pull case out of flame turn, point drill body down and case falls out quickly. If room light is right I can see them turn medium blue just after they hit the T shirts.

Note: when I do this my cases are bright, clean and shiney. Otherwise if they are discolored etc it will be hard to tell when you have arrived.

For better uniformity I am thinking of getting a electronic metronome and set it for one second "ticks" and I will just count off four seconds (5.56) or six (308/30.06) instead of just counting mentally.

Why doesn't Winchester, Remington, Federal brass show blue? Simple because some marketing type thought it wasn't pretty so they put it in tumbler and clean it prior to loading so no one will be offended by the ugly bluish tinge.

As of late what I have done is FL size cases prior to tumble cleaning, then tumble them and drop them in water to rinse off soap. As I take the cases out of the rinse water I place them in drill holder and place in flame appropriate time and drop them out. This dries the cases but not instantly as I can see them steaming for several seconds from the trapped water droplets left in the case. I have picked them up and still found droplets inside cases. Thusly the continious heat travel to destruction theory is discarded if the case web/head area is not hot enough to evap water.

Personally I prefer once fired cases to new cases because it has been "proof fired" and that tells me the case did not run through the annealing line upside down (yes this happens) and this is why it is inspected on a line by women looking for a shiney neck/shoulder and a blue CASE HEAD.

I have seen M16s that had failures from blue case heads. The head fails releasing gas into the upper receiver generally bowing the upper receiver outwards, ejecting the magazine out the bottom at a velocity high enough to require stitches if firers are was under mag.
The bolt and barrel extension lugs held firmly in every incident, just the case failed. This is why it is stressed to wear shooting glasses as primers do fail and cases do fail. Not long ago I was given some once fired cases and one had a head split from primer pocket up to area below the web. There was no sign of gas leakage but a little more and did not have a blue head.

Thusly when I open a box,bandoleer etc of new ammo and start to load mag I look at every round to make sure the neck/shoulder are blue and NO WHERE ELSE.

Anybody know anyone in military tell them to look for blue on shoulder and make sure head is not blue.

Bottom line if you want to heat your cases till they are ruined (red) and drop them in water feel free to continue but please quit giving the new guys the same bad info.
 
#25
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jr81452</div><div class="ubbcode-body">there is so much BS being throw around in this thread, i'm not sure it still has any value.

for example, the boiling point of zinc is 907c, and the melting point of cartridge brass(C260) is 915c. by the time you start boiling the zinc ("burn the zinc out of it"), the brass would physically deform from the heat. and even if you did manage to burn off some surface zinc, it would not be a large enough percentage to effect the ductility of the brass. btw... removing zinc turns brass to copper, which would SOFTEN it, not "make it brittle". the zinc is what hardens the copper so it becomes brass.

in metallurgy, "brittleness" is caused by the correlation between grain structure and hardness. larger crystals (as in annealed metal) allow for fewer grain boundaries and thus are less brittle. conversely, cold working breaks the large crystals into smaller ones and creates more boundaries (or fault lines) and makes a crack more likely.

with cartridge brass the problem of annealing (with exception of the case head) is not that the metal will become brittle with heat, rather that it will become "to soft" to retain the desired elasticity. however, given the cold working properties of c260; if one does exceed the desired temperature and "over anneal" it, you can work the hardness back into spec by using it for its intended purpose (firing and resizing) once or twice. if that makes one nervous, you should not be in the habit of firing weapons near your face on a regular basis to begin with. i will gladly accept a of your "ruined" overheated brass (to save you from the "dangers" of firing it).

here is some actual information about cartridge brass. read it and make your own decisions about how to anneal, instead of reading information provided by someone selling you an (expensive) contraption for a relatively straight forward process.


The following specifications cover Copper Alloys C260(C26000)

* ASTM B129
* ASTM B134
* ASTM B135
* ASTM B19 (Square Tube)
* ASTM B36
* ASTM B569
* ASTM B587
* MIL C-10375
* MIL S-22499
* MIL T-20219
* SAE J461
* SAE J463
* UNS C26000




Property Results

* Brass, C260
* Cartridge Brass, C260

Chemistry Data : [top]

Copper 68.5 - 71.5
Iron 0.05 max
Lead 0.07 max
Remainder Each Zn

Principal Design Features
Brasses (Copper-Zinc Alloy), Cartridge Brass, 70%. C26000 has the highest ductility in the yellow brass series. Easily machined but is more often cold formed.
Applications
Primarily used for hot or cold-formed products.

Welding

Soldering is rated as "excellent", brazing is rated as "excellent", oxyacetylene welding is rated as "good", gas shielded arc welding is rated as "fair", coated metal arc welding is "not recommended", spot welding is rated as "good", seam welding is "not recommended" and butt welding is rated as "good".

Forging

The hot forgeability rating of this alloy is not given. (Forging Brass=100). The recommended hot working temperature for this alloy is between 1350 and 1550 F.

Hot Working

This alloy's capacity for being hot formed is rated as "fair".

Cold Working

The capacity for cold working this alloy is rated as "excellent".

Annealing

The annealing temperature for this alloy is between 800 and 1400 F.

Physical Data : [top]


Density (lb / cu. in.) 0.308
Electrical Resistivity (microhm-cm (at 68 Deg F)) 37
Melting Point (Deg F) 1680
Modulus of Elasticity Tension 16000 </div></div>
Most of this is correct but you could have said it in a lot less words and it would have been better.
Sure you can work harden brass back to a better state if it is over softened but for all intents and purposes it is ruined for the next few shots. However I believe if you overheat the brass past a certain point the ability of the brass to come back to correct hardness is compromised and also the tensile strength is reduced . So I believe reloaders should avoid overheating their brass . It's just the better way to do it.
 
#26
Re: an observation on ANNEALING

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Most of this is correct but you could have said it in a lot less words and it would have been better.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Sure you can work harden brass back to a better state if it is over softened but for all intents and purposes it is ruined for the next few shots.</span> However I believe if you overheat the brass past a certain point the ability of the brass to come back to correct hardness is compromised and also the tensile strength is reduced . So I believe reloaders should avoid overheating their brass . It's just the better way to do it. </div></div>

how so? a sticky bolt lift isn't the end of the world. the brass still serves its intended purpose. so long as the neck is uniform in its tension, i've not experienced an adverse effect on accuracy. while not ideal, low elasticity is not the end of the world. it's certainly preferable (in terms of brass life) to a brittle un-annealed state.

i agree that there is a limit on the ability to correct over heating issues. my own testing has shown me that after 1400F, the method for correction becomes tedious at best. but the likelihood of reaching those temps (with the case half submerged in water) is slim. anything below 1200F can be corrected with a single firing and resizing cycle. two cycles if you are using a low pressure cartridge/load.

i think people tend to make to much of this topic. i know i was loathe to attempt it in the beginning, because of all the unfounded info being thrown about. but i've found it to be a simple process, with a wide range of acceptable methods. as with anything else in reloading, consistency of process (including errors) is more important than finding the so called "perfect" method. add that to a little factual knowledge, and even an imbecile can anneal successfully.
 
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