Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths

[stevenc23]

Kind of long winded but bare with me. I am relatively new to long range precision shooting and have definitely been bitten by the bug. Started with factory ammunition and now have taken up reloading. Annealing was the next step in my progression. As is my nature I read everything I could and picked the brains of accomplished shooters and reloaders.

Like most topics it isn’t always easy to separate fact from fiction. And with annealing I found lots of opinion based on personal experiences but very little science. With my science background and a degree in Chemistry I knew much of what was being said in these forums and elsewhere simply was not true.

For those interested in some light reading here are a few good articles and discussions to read to come to you own conclusions

https://vacaero.com/information-reso...dge-brass.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20160131...ssertation.pdf

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...brass.3868113/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4cmxWaMpOw

FWIW these are the conclusions I have come to based on scientific evidence.

1)The biggest myth is that you can easily over anneal cartridge brass. As per the above studies, you can heat brass to 1300 degrees F for 30 minutes and you will NOT ruin the brass. Directly from George Vander Voort, an expert in the field of Metallurgy “"It recrystallizes the grain structure, removes the cold deformation and returns it to the initial annealed condition with full ductility.”" So if 30 minutes at 1300 degrees F does not damage cartridge brass I think it would be pretty difficult to “over anneal” brass in a few seconds. Caveat –- you obviously to not want to anneal the case head or close to the head.

2)You do not burn the zinc out of the brass when it turns red.

3)You can anneal cases many (many) times, without harming them.

4)By properly annealing (and repeated annealing), cases life will be increased (unless overloaded).

5)Like most aspects of reloading consistency is the key. It is easy to anneal brass but more difficult to get all brass annealed to the same grain structure/hardness

6)Water does nothing for the process

Just my opinion based on my research.

Let the flaming begin.

 

[Sig Marine]

I'm subscribing to this discussion and interested in the results.

I just received an Annealeez machine but haven't had time to play with it. I was most concerned with accidentally over annealing, so you have my attention.

I don't know enough to comment on most of those, but I might hazard an thought on #6:

You want to minimize, as much as possible, the heating of the case below the shoulder. Even after you remove the heat source, the heat built up on the neck will continue to migrate down the case. By dowsing the case as soon as the neck achieves the desired temp, would you not be removing the heat out of the case as fast as possible, stopping that heat migration, keeping as much of the rest of the case unaffected as possible? Just a guess.

If your concentrated heat (flame) is directed at the neck properly and for only as long as it takes to anneal, then any residual heat migrating down the case should not be of a temperature to cause harm. I let mine air cool and have never had a problem with my cases.

 

[918v]

Cartridge brass needs to be soft enough not to split upon firing but hard enough to maintain enough grip on the bullet to 1. Maintain cartridge integrity during cycling of the action and 2. Ensure consistent combustion of the powder. The longer you heat the brass the softer it gets. Dead soft brass is no good for either 1 or 2. Your accuracy will be shit and so will your velocity spread. If you heat the brass till it glows you will render it dead soft. It will not have any elastic properties and will not hold a bullet. I have found 650-700 degrees to be the ideal temperature for best accuracy and lowest ES.

 

[stevenc23]

"Dead Brass" is one of the unsubstantiated claims I have read over and over. But according the articles linked in first post the brass does not get "dead soft". They measure initial rifle brass hardness (as well as grain structure) and found that after 30 minutes at 1300 degrees F it returns to original hardness and original grain structure. If you have some data to show otherwise I would love to see it.

 

[gigamortis]

I ultrasonicly clean and induction anneal my brass after every firing. With no flame to obscure my view, I can actually witness my necks and shoulders turn from a shiny brass finish to a matte finish when my annealing time is correct. With this same time setting, I can turn the lights off in the room and just see the neck barely begin to glow a faint red when the time is up. I never get the reddish copper color indicative of the zinc separating out and burning off. My SDs are always single digits with IMR-4064 powder and 175gr bullets. My brass life is excellent. Bullet seating force is always consistent.

While the above regimen does not spout any scientific numbers about annealing, my results across the chrono and on paper are definitely pointing towards something being done right.

 

[jsthntn247]

I ultrasonicly clean and induction anneal my brass after every firing. With no flame to obscure my view, I can actually witness my necks and shoulders turn from a shiny brass finish to a matte finish when my annealing time is correct. With this same time setting, I can turn the lights off in the room and just see the neck barely begin to glow a faint red when the time is up. I never get the reddish copper color indicative of the zinc separating out and burning off. My SDs are always single digits with IMR-4064 powder and 175gr bullets. My brass life is excellent. Bullet seating force is always consistent.

While the above regimen does not spout any scientific numbers about annealing, my results across the chrono and on paper are definitely pointing towards something being done right.

Smart fella here

 

[918v]

"Dead Brass" is one of the unsubstantiated claims I have read over and over. But according the articles linked in first post the brass does not get "dead soft". They measure initial rifle brass hardness (as well as grain structure) and found that after 30 minutes at 1300 degrees F it returns to original hardness and original grain structure. If you have some data to show otherwise I would love to see it.

That's not true. Once dead soft the brass remains dead soft. If you can chew on it today you can chew on it tomorrow.

 

[supercorndogs]

That's not true. Once dead soft the brass remains dead soft. If you can chew on it today you can chew on it tomorrow.

Mostly true. You can make brass hard again, you work it, repeated hammering. You can't make a case hard again without ruining it.

 

[stevenc23]

That's not true. Once dead soft the brass remains dead soft. If you can chew on it today you can chew on it tomorrow.

the reddish copper color indicative of the zinc separating out and burning off.

These are the kind of myths I was referring too. Stated over and over again with no scientific support. To the contrary, science cleary shows they are false.

Heating copper does NOT separate or burn off zinc.

Annealing at the times and temps reloaders are using do not make the brass dead soft. As per the research linked above and from experts in the field of metallurgy, the brass is simply returned to its initial annealed state. All rifle cartridge brass is annealed in the manufacturing process.

Read the articles above and you will see they tested rifle cartridge brass by measuring Vickers Hardness before and after annealing and working the brass. The brass hardens with working but returns to initial hardness after annealing. It does NOT become dead soft. It does not separate zinc.

 

[918v]

Did you come here to school us or to get practical information?

I have an induction annealer, a press with a hydraulic pressure gauge, and a magnetospeed chronigraph. I know what annealing does, how it affects seating pressure, velocity and accuracy. You don't. You don't know anything outside of what you read on the internet. So stop arguing.

 

[918v]

Mostly true. You can make brass hard again, you work it, repeated hammering. You can't make a case hard again without ruining it.

You can shoot it a bunch of time to harden it but that's a waste of components. Or you could expand the neck using the next caliber up mandrel and FL size a few times.

In any case, heating to 1300 degrees is retarded. Factory brass is not final annealed that much, prolly around 700 deg.

 

[stevenc23]

Did you come here to school us or to get practical information?

I have an induction annealer, a press with a hydraulic pressure gauge, and a magnetospeed chronigraph. I know what annealing does, how it affects seating pressure, velocity and accuracy. You don't. You don't know anything outside of what you read on the internet. So stop arguing.

I posted info here so others can make their own educated decision regarding what is true and what is myth regarding annealing. Did you even read the articles?

I have the same items you have and agree they are great tools. Annealing is a great tool for reloaders but much of the misinformation spread by you and others as fact scares some away from doing it.

 

[918v]

I'm not spreading misinformation. That is your uninformed opinion because you don't know what you're doing. If you actually tested the effect of neck hardness on accuracy and ES you would see there is a hardness threshold for necks after which accuracy falls apart.

 

[918v]

And there is also a sweet spot for neck hardness. And this sweet spot is different for chasing the lands or jumping bullets from mag length.

 

[stevenc23]

I'm not spreading misinformation. That is your uninformed opinion because you don't know what you're doing. If you actually tested the effect of neck hardness on accuracy and ES you would see there is a hardness threshold for necks after which accuracy falls apart.

I did not intend for this to turn into a pissing match (although I am not surprised). I wanted to present scientific data regarding annealing rifle brass so others can make their own decision on what is true and what is myth. I enjoy shooting and reloading and wanted to share what I found with others. My opinion is based on my 30+ years in the science field and expert research directly looking at annealing effects on rifle cartridge brass which I have linked above.

I will let forum members make up their own minds on whether to believe your statements or those of experts in the metallurgy field who have published research on annealing of rifle brass.

Lastly I do believe that annealing can have a beneficial effect on accuracy and ES but that is less clear and more difficult to prove. In Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Vol II the authors tested just that and did not find a strong correlation. FWIW I anneal all of my brass after every firing.

 

[918v]

But that hardness level, accomplished by heating to 1300 deg) is inappropriate for accuracy or low ES. We want the hardness level afforded by 700 deg heat.

 

[stevenc23]

Since I was asked a question I will reply. Yes 6pt5Rookie, that is exactly my point. You can see from the lower graph that new brass starts out with a Vickers hardness of ~60. . On the upper graph they start with brass that has been worked to a hardness of just under 200 and anneal it at 1300 degree F for 30 minutes which results in a HV of around 60. Hardness is right back to where is started. The article also shows that the grain structure is the same before it is hardened and then after it is annealed. It does not go "dead soft" even after 30 minutes at 1300 degree F. It goes back to its initial hardness. And no one ever recommended annealing to 1300 degrees.

 

[gigamortis]

I am the poster that first spoke of "burning the zinc" out. For what it is worth, I tiptoed into the annealing game a little bit at a time to get where I'm at with my regimen. I started out with some loose primer pocket Lapua brass that I wasn't going to load anymore. I performed many time trials with 750 Templaq that ranged from not hot enough to waaaay over-annealing. I even did bullet seating effort comparisons.

I can tell you that any case neck that got to an obvious bright red glow in a dark room exhibited over-annealed signs such as a reddish copper color and way too soft of a bullet seating pressure. Seating a bullet in too soft of a neck feels similar to when you tighten a bolt that doesn't ramp up the torque any longer while you're still rotating it. Definitely a characteristic of surpassing yield strength.

I used to work in the cold side of a steel mill where the flat steel was cold reduced via a few passes through a rolling mill. The result was a much harder steel that had a shiny surface. Being too hard for any drawing operations, it was then annealed in an oven arrangement that resulted in the surface finish changing over to a matte finish when the annealing process was complete. I see the same surface finish transition on my brass when it is annealed correctly for reloading purposes. If I turn the lights out, my necks just barely show a dim dull red for a split second before my timer setting stops the heat. My annealed case necks typically have a matte finish down to about 3/16" below the shoulder. I only induction anneal, so I have excellent visibility of what's happening to my brass during the process.

 

[supercorndogs]

You can shoot it a bunch of time to harden it but that's a waste of components. Or you could expand the neck using the next caliber up mandrel and FL size a few times.

In any case, heating to 1300 degrees is retarded. Factory brass is not final annealed that much, prolly around 700 deg.

I don't think so, shooting it once would ruin it after making it that soft. I bet you it would split from being too soft just like from being to hard. They loose their elasticity.

 

[supercorndogs]

I posted info here so others can make their own educated decision regarding what is true and what is myth regarding annealing. Did you even read the articles?

I have the same items you have and agree they are great tools. Annealing is a great tool for reloaders but much of the misinformation spread by you and others as fact scares some away from doing it.

I would say you telling people they can't over-anneal brass is much worse, and more dangerous; than us telling people to be careful not to heat it too much. Overheating your brass is dangerous, especially if you get too much heat into the case head.

 

[bruddah]

Tagging this as I really have no experience with annealing my brass.

 

[jsthntn247]

Tagging this as I really have no experience with annealing my brass.

Read gigamortis's post on here and anneal as he's described. No matter if you have a Giraud or Annie or do it with a drill it all does the same thing. He's described how to properly anneal brass for reloading, the rest of the shit in here is just a headache.

 

[Sheldon N]

One of the key things you are looking for with annealing is repeatability. You want to have the same brass hardness level from reload to reload so that neck tension is also repeatable. That way when you've done your load development, selected components, determined dimensional neck tension, etc, you don't get any variation from the ideal load that you've worked up.

Aside from the issue of preventing split necks and prolonging brass life, annealing is fundamentally a means of controlling neck tension. Neck tension is one variable of reloading that interplays with all other variables (charge weight, bullet jump, etc). That's why you see some guys say "I annealed and my groups went to crap" and other guys say "I annealed and everything tightened up", and even potentially "I annealed and saw no difference" (aka Litz). All you are really testing is how sensitive your load was to the change in neck tension, or perhaps if your load it was sensitive to neck tension in the first place. The best approach IMO is to start with a repeatable level of brass hardness through regular annealing every firing, then tune your load around that with powder charge, dimensional neck tension, etc. Only then will you be able to hold all variables constant and keep your load in tune as you use and reload your brass through multiple cycles.

AMP Annealing posted the results of their own testing on what level of brass harness maintained the best consistency of hardness through multiple cycles of fire/anneal/size/reload. They indicate that annealing to a hardness of 105Hv, somewhere in the middle of the scale, around what they call "half hard", produced the most repeatable hardness. They also posted information that annealing to a "dead soft" level took brass to a place where it would not recover hardness through cycles of fire/resize ... in other words it was ruined.

While I don't use an AMP annealer myself, the lessons are not lost on me. 1) Anneal to a moderate level (likely in line with the 700F number cited above), 2) Anneal in a consistent and repeatable fashion every reload, and 3) Build your load around annealed brass that's going to be consistent... don't do load development and then anneal 5 firings in and hope it turns out the way you want. It may or may not.

 

[briscoetab]

I've been watching this since it was posted and I think Sheldon voiced the same opinion I have on the subject. I have absolutely no data to support any of my opinion though but honestly I have not seen anyone present data to support their opinion. Yes, 918v says he has lower sd's and es's to support his method and then we have the articles to begin the post but no true hard data as far as external ballistic data.

Im not saying the articles are wrong but there not looking at actual impact of annealing on external ballistics, there looking at it from the standpoint of the molecular structure of brass. So you maybe able to heat brass to 1300deg for 1 hour and cause I harm to it but doing that will likely destroys the accuracy of your reloaded ammo.

It may also be correct that there is some myths behind why you do what you do when you anneal but I do not think doing those things are necessarily wrong, we may just be misinformed on why we are doing them. Like heating brass to 700-800 degrees, I maybe think that is when the brass is returned to its "original softness" when in actuality it might be that is just the "optimum" temp to get "optimum" neck hardness to produce the best accuracy results. I don't know the exact answer and have no data to actually contribute to help the discussion but have my opinion based on my feelings.

I actually just just purchased the AMP annealer, it's setting on my bench but I have not had the opportunity to use it yet. I got it for the exact reasons Sheldon said about neck tension. I feel that is all annealing is, a way to help control neck tension (as well as prolong brass life some). Honestly I just anneal to help control beck tension and keep it consistent.

The AMP annealer I feel is the best way to do this, it's taking the guess work out of it by actually using laboratory test to decide how long you and to what temp your brass needs to be annealed. Yes I feel with a flame you can get pretty awesome and consistent results but I feel like with an induction annealer you can get completely consistent and repeatable results. Hopefully I'm right because I just spen $1000 for an annealer.

 

[Sheldon N]

There used to be a couple more articles on the AMP site, but they've pulled some of it down or edited them to be a little shorter. The indication about 105Hv comes from their very short "Repeatable Neck Hardness" link, which used to be a longer article with test info.

 

[briscoetab]

Also meant to say I don't necessarily feel the the lab testing that AMP does sets it apart, I just think the induction annealing is better weather it's that Annie or amp because you have better control over everything. I just like that AMP takes most of the guess work out. If there settings don't work well with you reloads you can precisely adjust it till you get es and ss numbers you like (which is what 918v suggested to me in another post). Sorry I'm kind of getting headed down another topic than the original one so I'll stop there.

 

[Sheldon N]

While I think you could possibly use the AMP Annealer as a way to intentionally tune neck tension as part of load development, you might run into a scenario where the tension level that grouped the best was outside the window of best repeatability for brass hardness. I'd personally lean towards annealing to the repeatable level and then fine tuning neck tension through bushing selection or expander mandrels.

If you look at what the top world record 1000 yard bench rest shooters are doing, they use bushing dies and will shoot ladders at 1000 yards using different bushing sizes to see what groups the best. Overkill IMO for what we do in tactical/PRS shooting, but I think the principle of consistent brass hardness and controlling tension through dimensions is a good one.

 

[briscoetab]

I actually just ordered two forester dies and I am getting the necks honed out and then I'm going to send in my whidden die and get the neck honed on it. I like the idea of honed die better than bushings. Probably overkill but the forester dies are cheap enough I'm not to worried about spending the money. I'm just getting the whidden done to have later in case I want to run the lapua, hopefully I'll have enough neck diameter range to be able to without getting another die.

 

[BearNaked]

After reading this whole thing i think i have the issue yall are hung up on.

The OP is stating that brass as a metal (not a formed case) can be annealed to 1300 for 30 mins without being ruined. obviously, you dont want the whole case at that temp as the head would be too soft to hold the pressures once it is fired but technically it could take it without the metal itself being ruined.
- he never stated anything about accuracy, neck tension, or anything else we want when reloading.
- Example: you can run your car/truck at max throttle and it will take it for a certain period of time but that doesn't mean that you will get the best gas mileage. The OP is talking about if it can take it and yall are talking about best gas mileage.

My conclusion to this. Yes, brass CAN take being annealed at 1300 degrees for 30 mins BUT that will not give you the best accuracy and COULD BE DANGEROUS as the heat would soften the head. When we anneal for the short 3-8 seconds that we have a torch on it, unless you are pointing said torch at the head, you cannot over anneal brass.

Thanks OP for the information. i love the technical side of things including guns and reloading. I saw a pretty smart way to anneal brass and that is to hold the head of the case while you are annealing and you should be done before the heat makes it to your fingers. any heat at that point would be minimal to the case head. my two un-scientific cents.

 

[stevenc23]

Thanks Rookie, Bear and Sheldon for getting this thread back on track. The AMPannealing link ( http://www.ampannealing.com/about-brass-hardness) was great as it shows some test results on actual factory rifle brass. And to clarify one more time, I NEVER suggested to over anneal brass at 1300 degrees. I just said "it would be pretty difficult to “over anneal” brass in a few seconds" that reloaders anneal our brass. I also clearly stated "you obviously to not want to anneal the case head or close to the head" and I absolutely agree with others as I said in my original post "consistency is the key".

It still is not clear to me that brass becomes "dead soft" at a HV of 60 100gr. The second graph on the first page shows that when starting with brass at an HV of 60 the hardness comes back with woking. Not saying 60 HV is ideal but Vander Voort clearly shows it is not dead.

I have reached out to AMPannealing to see what their thoughts are on this as they have done actual hardness testing on rifle brass. Hopefully they will join the conversation.

 

[Supersubes]

I haven't read any of the comments yet.

I didn't know about the 1300 degree threshold, so thanks for that. Everything else I agree with, 100%.

 

[Supersubes]

After reading this whole thing i think i have the issue yall are hung up on.

The OP is stating that brass as a metal (not a formed case) can be annealed to 1300 for 30 mins without being ruined. obviously, you dont want the whole case at that temp as the head would be too soft to hold the pressures once it is fired but technically it could take it without the metal itself being ruined.
- he never stated anything about accuracy, neck tension, or anything else we want when reloading.
- Example: you can run your car/truck at max throttle and it will take it for a certain period of time but that doesn't mean that you will get the best gas mileage. The OP is talking about if it can take it and yall are talking about best gas mileage.

My conclusion to this. Yes, brass CAN take being annealed at 1300 degrees for 30 mins BUT that will not give you the best accuracy and COULD BE DANGEROUS as the heat would soften the head. When we anneal for the short 3-8 seconds that we have a torch on it, unless you are pointing said torch at the head, you cannot over anneal brass.

Thanks OP for the information. i love the technical side of things including guns and reloading. I saw a pretty smart way to anneal brass and that is to hold the head of the case while you are annealing and you should be done before the heat makes it to your fingers. any heat at that point would be minimal to the case head. my two un-scientific cents.

I LOL'd at your analogy BearNaked, it was spot on.

 

[BearNaked]

I LOL'd at your analogy BearNaked, it was spot on.

Thank you sir. Sometimes a simple example puts it into perspective for everyone.

 

[steve123]

Just commenting.

There was an annealing article years ago that I ascribe to. It specifically talked about neck tension and elasticity in the neck of the case.

I did some experimenting using different simple methods to test neck elasticity. Using a Benchsource I discovered that in a "dark room" the best results for elasticity was when the necks just started to turn red. Only 4-5 seconds depending on neck thickness and length. The cases barely had the blueish hue so I learned to not use color as a judge. 700 degree tempilaq correlates so it's what I've used.

 

[supercorndogs]

After reading this whole thing i think i have the issue yall are hung up on.

The OP is stating that brass as a metal (not a formed case) can be annealed to 1300 for 30 mins without being ruined. obviously, you dont want the whole case at that temp as the head would be too soft to hold the pressures once it is fired but technically it could take it without the metal itself being ruined.
- he never stated anything about accuracy, neck tension, or anything else we want when reloading.
- Example: you can run your car/truck at max throttle and it will take it for a certain period of time but that doesn't mean that you will get the best gas mileage. The OP is talking about if it can take it and yall are talking about best gas mileage.

My conclusion to this. Yes, brass CAN take being annealed at 1300 degrees for 30 mins BUT that will not give you the best accuracy and COULD BE DANGEROUS as the heat would soften the head. When we anneal for the short 3-8 seconds that we have a torch on it, unless you are pointing said torch at the head, you cannot over anneal brass.

Thanks OP for the information. i love the technical side of things including guns and reloading. I saw a pretty smart way to anneal brass and that is to hold the head of the case while you are annealing and you should be done before the heat makes it to your fingers. any heat at that point would be minimal to the case head. my two un-scientific cents.

Did you read the OPs post?

1)The biggest myth is that you can easily over anneal cartridge brass.

You can easily over anneal cartage brass. You can easily get too much heat into the case head without pointing the torch at it. Get it too hot and its ability to hold a bullet or it own shape under mild pressure are greatly compromised. I have seen the effects of over annealing brass. It resulted in cracked necks, splits in shoulders, and in some cases neck was stretched part way into the freebore. I will have to see if my Dad still has the cases. He read," heat them until they just start to glow." That is what he did. Wrong glow. Daylight bright. He used a pan of water to keep the heat out of the case head. Over anneal and your cases are ruined. There is no doubt. Anyone who doesn't believe me, go get your touch and heat a case neck until it is red. You actually don't have to go quite this far to achieve the same results. You will easily be able to smash the mouth of the case closed with your fingers. Try that with a new case.

For most who reload, if the brasses accuracy potential is ruined, the brass is ruined.

Anneal inconsistently and you are almost wasting your time.

 

[Supersubes]

Did you read the OPs post?

1)The biggest myth is that you can easily over anneal cartridge brass.

You can easily over anneal cartage brass. You can easily get too much heat into the case head without pointing the torch at it. Get it too hot and its ability to hold a bullet or it own shape under mild pressure are greatly compromised. I have seen the effects of over annealing brass. It resulted in cracked necks, splits in shoulders, and in some cases neck was stretched part way into the freebore. I will have to see if my Dad still has the cases. He read," heat them until they just start to glow." That is what he did. Wrong glow. Daylight bright. He used a pan of water to keep the heat out of the case head. Over anneal and your cases are ruined. There is no doubt. Anyone who doesn't believe me, go get your touch and heat a case neck until it is red. You actually don't have to go quite this far to achieve the same results. You will easily be able to smash the mouth of the case closed with your fingers. Try that with a new case.

For most who reload, if the brasses accuracy potential is ruined, the brass is ruined.

Anneal inconsistently and you are almost wasting your time.

He gave a very specific temp, which is nearly double what is normally advised. Thats a pretty big window. I'd say his point was a simple one. He wasn't suggesting someone put a 3600 degree propane torch on the neck of their case for 30 minutes. Pretty easy to get a thin piece of sheetmetal to bust through 1300 degrees, which sounds like what your dad did.

 

[Sierra770]

While I am not sure about the myth or reality of over annealing, I am like many on here that use that 700-750 degree range that results in good accuracy and good numbers. While I trust the scientific method in most things, there is a little superstition that keeps me from walking under ladders and over annealing my brass.

 

[supercorndogs]

He gave a very specific temp, which is nearly double what is normally advised. Thats a pretty big window. I'd say his point was a simple one. He wasn't suggesting someone put a 3600 degree propane torch on the neck of their case for 30 minutes. Pretty easy to get a thin piece of sheetmetal to bust through 1300 degrees, which sounds like what your dad did.

It doesn't take 30 mins to reach 1300 degrees. It takes leaving it in the flame a few seconds too long. As you said it doesn't take long to heat a thin piece of metal with a 3623f propane torch.[myth unbusted] Consistently annealing brass takes getting and holding the same part of the brass, in the same part of the flame, at the same angle for the same amount of time 100,200,300 times in a row. If you can do that by hand, you can paint me impressed. It will tighten up your ES and SD. So for me, it seems easy to over anneal when we start applying long range standards to our brass consistency. [I.E our ability to control velocity variation.]

Lets start on the another myth thats "busted", annealing cases will not make them last longer. I have brass that has been annealed nearly a dozen times, and reloaded nearly twice that many times. I also tossed some of the same brass, same lot, before I started annealing, that I reloaded 8 times before the necks started splitting. [Winchester 300wm brass.] After five loading my vertical spread was all over, so it was really already ruined for any purpose I have for it. Unless it was properly annealed to tighten up ES and SD.

The problem is taking two things that are semi related, and drawing conclusions from one about the other. If you don't understand the reasons we do some things. I understand why you think the info you posted, "busted some myths." If you don't want to know the why. Keep reading articles about metallurgy. If you want to know the how's and why's of annealing brass cases, go study that.

 

[BearNaked]

Did you read the OPs post?

1)The biggest myth is that you can easily over anneal cartridge brass.

You can easily over anneal cartage brass. You can easily get too much heat into the case head without pointing the torch at it. Get it too hot and its ability to hold a bullet or it own shape under mild pressure are greatly compromised. I have seen the effects of over annealing brass. It resulted in cracked necks, splits in shoulders, and in some cases neck was stretched part way into the freebore. I will have to see if my Dad still has the cases. He read," heat them until they just start to glow." That is what he did. Wrong glow. Daylight bright. He used a pan of water to keep the heat out of the case head. Over anneal and your cases are ruined. There is no doubt. Anyone who doesn't believe me, go get your touch and heat a case neck until it is red. You actually don't have to go quite this far to achieve the same results. You will easily be able to smash the mouth of the case closed with your fingers. Try that with a new case.

For most who reload, if the brasses accuracy potential is ruined, the brass is ruined.

Anneal inconsistently and you are almost wasting your time.

Yes i read the post. I also read the rest of the thread. how else could i try to explain this if i haven't? you didnt read my post otherwise you would understand that he was talking about the brass as a metal. Not the functionality of it once it was annealed down that far.

you are still talking gas mileage while we are talking about if it can. if you want to talk about other stuff then teddy bears are softer the more we hug them. they do not get work hardened like other materials.

 

[supercorndogs]

Yes i read the post. I also read the rest of the thread. how else could i try to explain this if i haven't? you didnt read my post otherwise you would understand that he was talking about the brass as a metal. Not the functionality of it once it was annealed down that far.

you are still talking gas mileage while we are talking about if it can. if you want to talk about other stuff then teddy bears are softer the more we hug them. they do not get work hardened like other materials.

No, I am not. I am saying you can over anneal it is easy. I would refer you to my last post on the why. This is not the metallurgy section, this is the reloading section. The proper section to talk metallurgy is the bear pit. You want to talk about annealing cartridges, this is the spot.

Let me put this simpler. You can't take someone saying, "it is easy to over anneal a brass cartridge." and bust that myth because 1300 wont over anneal a slab cartridge brass. No one who ever said it is easy to over anneal a brass case, gives a fuck about a slab of the same kind of brass. They are talking about reloading brass cases. Get that thin little piece of brass too hot, it doesn't take long[ couple seconds] and it is ruined. Get that heat into the head and its dangerous.

Apples and oranges

I have no idea how the OP came to the conclusions he did by reading those links, and I don't think you read them, because the conclusions in the dissertation say the same things I am. Their annealing results were inconstant because their methods were inconsistent. IE hold the brass in a flame with a drill.

 

[supercorndogs]

after annealing 30 minutes at 1300°F which produced a fully recrystallized, uniform grain size distribution but coarse grained (as in Figs. 1 and 3a). {too soft}

As the annealing temperature increased from 700 to 1300°F, the HV distribution curves become more peaked and the hardness decreases. {too soft}

Cold working increases the hardness of the alloy dramatically; a 400% increase was obtained going from the fully annealed condition to a 70% reduction in thickness {made hard again}

The 1300 degree sample exhibited greater hardness after CR [cold reduction] [hammered thinner] This is obviously a metal production strategy and not a brass maintenance strategy, as are the 'myths' you are busting." Octopuses and sting rays.

 

[918v]

My conclusion to this. Yes, brass CAN take being annealed at 1300 degrees for 30 mins BUT that will not give you the best accuracy and COULD BE DANGEROUS as the heat would soften the head. When we anneal for the short 3-8 seconds that we have a torch on it, unless you are pointing said torch at the head, you cannot over anneal brass

Your conclusion is wrong.

There are different degrees of overannealing. The most common with rookie annealers is heating the case neck until it glows. This renders the case useless. The brass is so soft that you can collapse the neck using your fingers. That case is not elastic enough to hold a bullet. And this can and does occur within the 3-8 seconds you proposed depending on the size of the flame and the neck thickness.

The next step down is heating the case neck until you see a color change. The problem with that approach is many commercial cases do not change color or do so very faintly and you end up overcooking the neck.

The next step down is heating the neck in a dark room until the brass is on the verge of starting to glow. The problem is consistency. How do you do that consistently? And how do you adjust the temperature to manipulate the neck hardness? Let's say you are a robot and can do that consistently. You are still annealing to the max every time.

The next step down is applying tempilaq and heating till it lets you know you reached the desired temp. That's nice except I have tried it and it doesn't work very well, with the 700 degree stuff anyhow. And it's hard to remove from the neck. I called the manufacturer and learned that not all tempil products indicate the same, that some indicate better than others depending on the temp rating, and their shelf life varies from 1 to 3 years depending on the temp rating. My 700 and 750 tempilstiks were giving me fits until I found out the bastards at the welding shop sold me 10 year old expired product. The 650 has a three year shelf life and indicates the best out of the three which are appropriate for cartridge case annealing.

There is also the issue of how you size and when do you anneal. Sizing hardens the case. How much you size determines how hard the case gets. What may be good for FL sizing is excessive for collet neck sizing. The reason is FL sizing works the brass the most and collet sizing the least.

Finally, when I'm shooting a 50 cent bullet out of a case it took me several minutes to prep, annealing over whatever temperature is ideal for my load IS over annealing. I don't care that I can salvage the case somehow. I don't care what some scholarly article says. I don't care what Litz claims or what the recommended settings for my AMP machine are. My time and effort are far more important.

With that said, what my annealing adventures have taught me is that with annealing LESS is MORE.

 

[918v]

I think 700 is the best.

The laser thing is cool if it works. I wonder why they haven't incorporated something like it in an automated unit: heat the neck until the laser reads the desired temp and then turn off the heat or drop the case. People say lasers don't read shiny surfaces very well. But brass turns matte when heated.

 

[918v]

I think discussing the metallurgical implications of annealing at different temperatures is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss in the Reloading section. If not, a moderator can move the thread.


Here are the questions I'd like answered:

1. At what EXACT temperature/time is cartridge brass "over annealed?"
2. How do we define "over annealed?" (assuming consistency) Just high SD/ES, or is it a safety concern? Or is the brass just permanently ruined and will never regain it's elasticity?
3. For those crazy enough to try and anneal by hand or in a drill bit, given a common propane torch, how many seconds window would they have between beginning of anneal, to a unsafe level?
4. Does cartridge brass have a "dead-soft" state it can go into at which it will never work-harden again? If so, given that brass has a melting point of around 1700f, why wasn't it always in this state? It seems the brass should have started it's life above a temp that should have rendered it permanently un-work-harden-able (I made up a word).
5. Is there a sweet-spot temp that gives optimal SD/ES performance? How was that measured and proven? One poster suggested 700f. The Amp Anneal article seemed to suggest a slightly higher temp. Maybe 750-800f.

1. What do you mean? Like dangerous to reload over annealed or my accuracy now sucks over annealed? If the latter, I'm gonna say 800 deg.

2. We can define over annealed as that neck hardness which is not elastic enough to hold a bullet tight enough long enough to get the powder burning consistently. Obviously. If you are jamming bullets into the lands, neck hardness is not as much of an issue.

3. Depends on flame length and temperature.

4. No, but restoring brass cases from too soft to just right is time consuming and impractical.

5. Depends on how you load. If you FL size you work the brass more so you need the brass softer in the beginning. If you bushing or collet size you work the brass less so you need a harder neck in the beginning. If you jam, your neck can be very soft as bullet release is controlled by the amount of jam into the rifling. How do you test this? I tested this by working up a load in 1x fired brass and then altered the load by varrying the annealing time on my AMP machine. I saw an accuracy decrease with an increase in annealing time which was still below their recommended setting. Now, I jump my bullets anywhere from .010" to .120" depending on the bullet. I don't jam so all this doesn't apply if you jam.

If you jam, use the darkroom method. I don't think it matters.

 

[918v]

I don't know the temp, just the AMP setting. The neck reached 650 deg (per the 650 tempilstik) at setting 38, best accuracy was at setting 40, accuracy dropped off after setting 42.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Y'all are thinking way too hard into this.

People have been annealing for 50+ years and for the most part have been getting it right.


Don't over think this. Anneal in a consistent manner and enjoy shooting your hand loads.

Just get the basic rules down:
-dont overdo the annealing
-Dont anneal or let the case head get too hot.

There's too many variables that you can't control with the brass, so just anneal to the average.

Best case scenario you anneal with induction like the AMPnor annie. Is it going to give you the same results case to case? No.
Know why? Because you didn't make each case the same as the last. Unless you're neck turning and making sure each and every case is identical down to the thousandth...
It doesn't matter.

Just anneal using common sense and practices and shoot the damn cases

*spoiler alert: there's nothing you can do to make primers uniform and exactly the same in regards to ignition.

**Unless you weigh out each kernel that goes in and made sure none were cut from throwing or damaged, you can't control that either.

***Bullets. Man I hope you can measure cylindrical objects with a taper down to 1/2 degree.

See? We live in a world of tolerances. Control what you can to the best of your ability and make it work.

 

[Sierra770]

^^^^solid and sound advice.

 

[BearNaked]

This is what cracks me up is how complicated people make it. i havent had any issues with my "wrong way".

I do understand the one point the corn dog said about this being a reloading thread and a not a metallurgy thread but if you are going to talk about annealing then we are talking about metallurgy. if you want to talk ballistics then we will be having a physics conversation. No body said you couldnt over anneal at the 3600 degrees you are talking about.

on to the laser point, would the laser only get the heat of the brass or would it also get the heat from the flame? I dont know just curious.

From the sounds of everything, no matter what you do with annealling you are wrong. nothing is exactly the same so your 3 seconds on one case is not enough and too much on another since the thickness changes. Do you know the exact chemical make up of each peice of brass so then you know if it will take more heat than the other pieces. did the manufacturer fall within the tolerances and did they properly PMI test it to prove that? what about the trace elements in it? all of that can affect it.

i agree with Ghengis, just anneal and go shoot. i promise there are bigger issues in the person shooting it than the way you anneal it, as long as its within reason.

 

[OH58DViper]

I only anneal on Wednesday after taco Tuesday. I have achieved a level of consistency never seen before by man. I use condensed fart gasses that I put in a vape device and after inhalation I blow that through the flame of my torch. I can do 50 cases with one breath with perfect results every time! My SDs are in the negatives.

 

[Steel head]

I've over cooked brass.
Not so much it split but ES sucked!
Worse than hardened brass.
You could feel during bullet seating something wasn't right.
I loaded that bass with plinker powder n bullets and actually got it back shooting well after a bunch of loading.

I still use a torch and drill and using the method in the primal rights video it's been going well.
I mainly anneal to get brass to properly resize so I anneal every 5th shot.

ES stays consistent.

Im not buying OP's data.