Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths

[Barelstroker]

If you are lighting up your cases like you say, then they are trash. MAP gas is what I use to trash a piece of brass to make case length gages, and I don’t even heat them up for that long! I do that to over soften the necks so it doesn’t have as tight of neck tension. If I took a normally annealed piece vs one that I’ve trashed, the case length gage is noticeably more difficult to remove.

I have explained this in some detail however, I've annealed at 700+ C, FL Sized, seated & fired, annealed again the same way & so on. The cases aren't trashed & seem to be perfectly normal albeit with softer neck & shoulder.
I've done a lot of measuring of the annealed cases &, found no difference in size anywhere on the cases.
I've dealt with 308, 243, 223, 270 & 30-30 so far. It's possible that if your cases are different, you may well notice some difference but, I haven't so far. By "case length gage", are you referring to a wilson type gage or something else?
I'm interested in your findings.

 

[never_summer]

I use the Sinclair chamber length gages to determine my trim to length. I initially tried .002” neck tension without annealing and the gage would be stuck pretty hard in the brass, then did normal annealed with .002” and finally over annealed with .002”. Now I just size the neck to .000” under and over anneal it. Less damage on my chamber gages and easier to seat in the chamber. The over annealed stuff I can easily crush with my fingers

 

[Barelstroker]

I use the Sinclair chamber length gages to determine my trim to length. I initially tried .002” neck tension without annealing and the gage would be stuck pretty hard in the brass, then did normal annealed with .002” and finally over annealed with .002”. Now I just size the neck to .000” under and over anneal it. Less damage on my chamber gages and easier to seat in the chamber. The over annealed stuff I can easily crush with my fingers

Ok. So your over annealed cases may be 100% recrystallized which, by the graphs I have, were measured at around 85 HV to 90 HV. Brand new cases were measured at around 105HV, give or take. You haven't mentioned what cases you're referring to but, the actual case brass hardness level shouldn't be much different. If you can easily crush your "over annealed" cases I presume you can at least slightly crush an un-annealed case.
You must be quite strong. Using both thumbs as hard as I can, I've just tried a 308 case, no movement, 223 same deal, 270 nothing, 30-30 I was able to crush, not easily but, I crushed the neck only, not the body. This makes sense, the Remington 30-30 cases I have are very thin & the shoulder is much shallower than the other cases. Unfortunately I have no un-annealed 30-30 cases to test if I can crush them.
So what cases are you referring to?

 

[Tokay444]

If you guys weren’t so fucking arrogant, and could pull your heads out of your asses for 5 minutes instead of continuing to parrot “what you’ve heard”, you’d see that Barelstroker is actually putting on a clinic about what actually happens when you anneal brass, and at which temperatures.
He keeps his case heads submerged in water to keep too much heat from migrating into them.
The facts don’t change just because you do it a different way. You can’t “trash your brass” by “over annealing” the neck. It can only simply go back to fully crystallized state and begin being work hardend all over again.

 

[918v]

Some of us aren’t parroting what we’ve heard. Some of us have tested accuracy with factory new brass, partially annealed brass, and over annealed brass with high quality equipment coupled with decades of handling experience.

What we do is all about accuracy. What the OP does is all about
recrystallization. Brass does not need to be fully recrystallized in order to do its job. But it does need to be semi-hard in order to do its job well.

 

[Tokay444]

That’s a little more like it.

 

[Barelstroker]

Some of us aren’t parroting what we’ve heard. Some of us have tested accuracy with factory new brass, partially annealed brass, and over annealed brass with high quality equipment coupled with decades of handling experience.

What we do is all about accuracy. What the OP does is all about
recrystallization. Brass does not need to be fully recrystallized in order to do its job. But it does need to be semi-hard in order to do its job well.

I understand & appreciate what you're saying &, the way that everyone anneals has simply been accepted & perpetuated by all & sundry but, not necessarily for the right reasons.
When I began to research annealing, I began by finding & downloading 2 or 3 studies which, I read over many times to understand & familiarize myself with facts about C26000 70/30 cartridge brass annealing.
The more I looked at the situation, the greater the discrepancies between what the scientists were reporting & what the reloading annealers were saying.
During my study of annealing, it became apparent to me that, the only way to ensure true annealing consistency, regardless of the case initial hardness, is to take the brass to 100% recrystallization. Everything else is simply guess work at best. If you read the graphs & tables, it's more than apparent.
Anyhow, as I stated, I've noticed nothing to date which indicates that this method will deliver anything but satisfactory results &, may possibly deliver superior results for those brave enough to resist the obvious pier pressure & give it a go.

 

[supercorndogs]

You mean like this? What we have heard...... You go blast all your brass at 1400 F for 15 seconds holding a torch buy hand over a spinning microwave tray using the distance you hold the torch from the brass to maintain the temperature, then get back to me.

When I ask someone questions, I tend to ask someone whom I would trust to know the correct answer.

Anyone who wants know..... Heat one up until it "glows like a light bulb filament." Heat it up to salmon color. Then smash it with your fingers. Take some good brass and a good load heat it up cherry red and go shoot it. I have done both of these things. 918v is pretty much right on the money, as far as what happened to my accuracy, and I bet he told you that because he either did the same thing, or helped someone who did.

I had not watched any of those videos until they were posted in this thread. I did not learn to anneal from you tube. Nor do I base my results on what someone on you tube said, or something I read. We use targets and chronographs to verify our results. Not eyeballs and feels.

Victims Victims of you wasting their time.

 

[Barelstroker]

You mean like this?

Oh, so you don't want to shut me up with some of your expert information then. You know, the information you've been using for 10 years & not realized that you're not softening the brass one iota.
Haha, you've gone too long relying on guys backing you up, not cause they know but, cause they think you know. Thing is, facts don't care how many buddies got your back.
Facts are as stubborn & hard as our mistress perpetuity. She don't care who backs you either.
Anyhow, I'm still waiting on this information I presume you have to support your methods.
I think I'll be waiting a long while.

 

[Barelstroker]

If you guys weren’t so fucking arrogant, and could pull your heads out of your asses for 5 minutes instead of continuing to parrot “what you’ve heard”, you see that Barelstroker is actually putting on a clinic about what actually happens when you anneal brass, and at which temperatures.
He keeps his case heads submerged in water to keep too much heat from migrating into them.
The facts don’t change just because you do it a different way. You can’t “trash your brass” by “over annealing” the neck. It can only simply go back to fully crystallized state and begin being work hardend all over again.

Thank you.

 

[918v]

I understand & appreciate what you're saying &, the way that everyone anneals has simply been accepted & perpetuated by all & sundry but, not necessarily for the right reasons.
When I began to research annealing, I began by finding & downloading 2 or 3 studies which, I read over many times to understand & familiarize myself with facts about C26000 70/30 cartridge brass annealing.
The more I looked at the situation, the greater the discrepancies between what the scientists were reporting & what the reloading annealers were saying.
During my study of annealing, it became apparent to me that, the only way to ensure true annealing consistency, regardless of the case initial hardness, is to take the brass to 100% recrystallization. Everything else is simply guess work at best. If you read the graphs & tables, it's more than apparent.
Anyhow, as I stated, I've noticed nothing to date which indicates that this method will deliver anything but satisfactory results &, may possibly deliver superior results for those brave enough to resist the obvious pier pressure & give it a go.

Cartridge brass has existed for over 100 years during which mankind optimized it and today it is at its peak of perfection, i.e. RCC brass, etc.

These manufacturers know what they are doing. They don’t heat up the brass to the level you heat the brass.

 

[Barelstroker]

I agree

Cartridge brass has existed for over 100 years during which mankind optimized it and today it is at its peak of perfection, i.e. RCC brass, etc.

These manufacturers know what they are doing. They don’t heat up the brass to the level you heat the brass.

I agree, they do know what they're doing however, they anneal for different reasons &, therein lies the dilemma.
Cartridge manufacturers have their own very specific purposes, only one of which has anything to do with hand loaders.
As far as I can determine, they anneal or rather stress relieve to prevent season cracking of the cartridge necks.
They also have to deal with interstage transfers within the plant, high speed loading machines, bulk packaging, handling, transportation, storage, product integrity & end user handling. So, the last thing they want or need is soft case necks. We, on the other hand, have little to none of those concerns.
If we put annealing into context, there's no reason for us to anneal the way the manufacturers do &, I think it's counter productive with regards to neck tension in particular. If a guy just wants to stop his necks splitting to obtain longer case life, have at it but, if the goal is to achieve repeatable neck tension & brass hardness, the manufacturers method is a poor choice.
We have so much more leeway when it comes to annealing &, I'm trying to get this information out there.
Nobodies suggesting that you have to change, I'm just saying that, there is a lot of room to try other methods which, do not damage, cook, bake, trash or over-anneal the case necks &, during my testing to date, may well prove superior for our purposes.

 

[Barelstroker]

You mean like this? What we have heard...... You go blast all your brass at 1400 F for 15 seconds holding a torch buy hand over a spinning microwave tray using the distance you hold the torch from the brass to maintain the temperature, then get back to me.

What, you still haven't turned up with anything which makes you look like you actually know jack shit.
A sure sign of a nonuff, rhetoric & denigration. You're irrelevant now.
It's getting old buddy. Go & carry on like a tosser some place else.

 

[918v]

I agree

I agree, they do know what they're doing however, they anneal for different reasons &, therein lies the dilemma.
Cartridge manufacturers have their own very specific purposes, only one of which has anything to do with hand loaders.
As far as I can determine, they anneal or rather stress relieve to prevent season cracking of the cartridge necks.
They also have to deal with interstage transfers within the plant, high speed loading machines, bulk packaging, handling, transportation, storage, product integrity & end user handling. So, the last thing they want or need is soft case necks. We, on the other hand, have little to none of those concerns.
If we put annealing into context, there's no reason for us to anneal the way the manufacturers do &, I think it's counter productive with regards to neck tension in particular. If a guy just wants to stop his necks splitting to obtain longer case life, have at it but, if the goal is to achieve repeatable neck tension & brass hardness, the manufacturers method is a poor choice.
We have so much more leeway when it comes to annealing &, I'm.

No it isn’t. Annealing a neck till it’s dead soft produces inferior accuracy as compared to a semi-hard neck. The only time it does not is when you’re jamming bullets in the lands.

 

[918v]

Well, I've been metallic reloading for over 30 years &, had a lot of rifles come & go in that time, some of which have been target rifles, one of which I have retained.

As far as your claims concerning accuracy, tell me how you know? I presume, with so adamant a comment from your behalf that you've actually over annealed cases. Tell me, what's the citerior for "over annealing"?
I've read plenty of benchrest articles on neck tension with plenty of validated claims utilizing neck tensions as low as 1 & 2 Lbs. What's the difference if you get by mandrel sizing or annealing?

How do I know?


Observation, testing, tens of thousands of rounds fired... I have 2 AMP machines, a 21st Century Hydraulic Press, Wilson micrometer dies, the ability to control neck tension to half a thou, Sartorius 64 scale for weighing out exact charges, etc. My rifles shoot under .3 MOA consistently with single digit SD with mag length ammo.

Neck tension is just a variable. I have brass with 8 firings on it that shoots well. Annealing this brass to the degree you propose has ruined accuracy in the past for me and a lot of other people.

I have reloaded and shot brass 25 times, annealing it to 650* three times through its life cycle and did not split one neck, not one.

I have some LC65 Match brass that I annealed with a torch and it shoots barely MOA after many reloads whereas the ones I left alone shoot half moa.

Over annealing kills accuracy, period.

 

[Tokay444]

How do I know?


Observation, testing, tens of thousands of rounds fired... I have 2 AMP machines, a 21st Century Hydraulic Press, Wilson micrometer dies, the ability to control neck tension to half a thou, Sartorius 64 scale for weighing out exact charges, etc. My rifles shoot under .3 MOA consistently with single digit SD with mag length ammo.

Neck tension is just a variable. I have brass with 8 firings on it that shoots well. Annealing this brass to the degree you propose has ruined accuracy in the past for me and a lot of other people.

I have reloaded and shot brass 25 times, annealing it to 650* three times through its life cycle and did not split one neck, not one.

I have some LC65 Match brass that I annealed with a torch and it shoots barely MOA after many reloads whereas the ones I left alone shoot half moa.

Over annealing kills accuracy, period.

I salt bath anneal, throw on a Chargemaster 1500, have single digit ES, and seat with a Redding Comp seater and my 6.5CM rifle shoots between .1 and .3 moa.
I’m not sure how any of that is definitively due to my annealing method.

 

[918v]

All my rifles shoot .1 moa all the time and I eyeball the powder charge and seat bullets with a wooden mallet.

 

[Gustav7]

I anneal all my cases for 15 sec minimum at around 1400 F with the case head in water. This assures me of 100% recrystallization & I've experienced none of the problems you mentioned. My cases size perfectly, seating force measured with a gauge is wonderfully consistent. I've annealed over 1000 cases like this now, with not one spot of bother.
After every firing, the cases look perfectly normal with normal case growth of a few thou.
By the way, when annealing, my case neck/shoulder glows like a light bulb filament &, not a skerrick of damage.
You guys really should stop talking this nonsense.
No nickel separation, no dead brass &, certainly, definitely not over annealed.

If you have something you've studied extensively, and are wanting to educate people on, and this information you want to disseminate is new, unique, or otherwise contradictory or challenging what is "normal".... I might suggest doing it in a more complete and thorough way than what you put above (at least initially). As this thread has shown, saying what you said in the way you said it immediately blew some trip wires. IF you haven't been on this site much, theres often some jackass who thinks he knows everything and usually starts off with an incomplete and brash thread or response ...

That being said, having just read through this whole thread, its obvious that your later responses started to bring your knowledge and hypothesis of your version of annealing to light. It would have been nice to get all of that in one well thought out comprehensive thread of your own....but I digress on that part, it is what it is now.

If I understand what you're saying, you are saying that to get the MOST consistency every time, you want 100% recrystallization every time you anneal. Provided you do this BEFORE sizing, the sizing operation should then begin to work harden the 100% recrystallized brass once sized. This in theory should give you some hardness and spring so you're not working with soft brass. In Erik Cortina's video when he did the 10-15s annealing his bullet seating pressure was 0. If that means he's at 100% recrystallization, then by your theory, its not ruined, it just needs worked, which the sizing operation could do..... am I somewhere close?

My biggest issue would be that:
1.) 100% recrystallization REQUIRES some work hardening before firing right? otherwise your neck tension is nothing
2.) If 80-95% recrystallization gives the same results down range as 100%...then IMO, 100% is useless and is just more work in the end.

 

[Tokay444]

100% recrystallization doesn’t mean no neck tension.

 

[Barelstroker]

If you 100% anneal, the brass doesn't go dead, it's definitely softer but, not dead. There's less neck tension for sure but, not unworkable by any stretch.
The reason I've just begun to target/chono test is because I wanted to do as much testing on the neck tension side of things &, ensure that was a viable situation. I'll give you some figures that are typical for 308 cases & you can mull them around & compare; These figures are all based on 100% recrystallization.
FLS with neck ID -0.004" approx. 20 to 35 Lbs. Typically, the bullet will start seat at about 8-12Lbs & finish at between 20 to 35Lbs with, the bullet bearing surface seated down past the neck/shoulder junction. When seated to the n/s junction, some will venture up into the 40's Lbs but very few. With the bearing surface seated before the n/s junction, finish seating reduces quite a bit & seating force will complete in the early to mid 20's. So, unless you prefer seating force of more than say 40Lbs, seating force will be the same deal you have now with your present system. It's all fully adjustable via mandrel pins & neck bushings, you simply have to modify your neck ID to accommodate the softer brass. Everything works just the same but, you'd simply be starting from a lower position on the scale, so to speak.
If you're just starting from a lower position on the scale, "why bother" I hear you ask. Excellent question.
The way you anneal now, with the temperatures you're employing, are simply too low get the brass into recrystallization. No recrystallization means no change in malleability/hardness. The brass is merely stress relieved with little to no discernable change in neck tension however, & vastly more consequential is that, the brass hardness between cases of different firing numbers can be very considerable. There's no question that you can adjust or accommodate for this but, if the cases can be brought to the same hardness across the board, the results are very consistent &, will stay that way through future cycles.
The AMP is an exception. They take the temps to around 550C (1020F) which, is in the recrystallization temp/time domain so, in my opinion, based on annealing facts, the AMP does indeed recrystallize the brass to some %. Question is, what % which, is mainly determined by initial brass hardness at the time of annealing. When Annealing at these low temps, the devil is in the detail. AMP themselves state that best results are obtained starting from new brass & annealing between every cycle &, I bet I know why. Because they have to reach an equalization at some stage however, that stage will invariably be at or above 105HV. If done my way, that will reduce down to 85-90HV.
You said you have an AMP, excellent. There's a test that you can do that I can't cause I don't have access to an AMP.
You could 100% recrystallize one time only & thereafter, employ your AMP to simply maintain the brass hardness between cases, wherever the brass hardness comes to equilibrium in a certain number of firing & annealing cycles.
There's just so many choices you can opt for to suit your own needs, all the while having the confidence that at any & every stage or cycle, all your cases are the same hardness. It doesn't matter if the brass hardens a little after a one time recrystallization. The AMP will bring equalization at some stage &, there's no obvious reason to me why that situation wouldn't continue indefinitely.
Hey, at very least, there's no harm in testing with 10 or 20 cases. You've got all the good gear, you're very familiar with setting neck ID's & so forth.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Y’all must be kicking the shit out of all kinds of local matches of all disciplines.

.1 rifles........

 

[Barelstroker]

Point taken with regard to your comment that I should have started my own thread. I agree.

You may not be aware that Eric has since put out a 2nd vid. To my utter astonishment &, based on his comments, it appears that he didn't resize the cases in the 1st vid. I'm not sure what he was thinking.
This explains the zero neck tension & all that folly.
Eric's 2nd vid is much more in line with reality. Please give it a look when you can.

With regard to your concerns with 100% recrystallization, the brass doesn't need to be hardened from there. The brass is definitely softer but, has perfectly adequate tension, just lower.
Using this method requires rehashing your neck ID's to suit the softer brass otherwise, everything is pretty much the same deal accept, all the cases are the same hardness, no guessing & no question.
Please read my previous, post to 918v. You may find the info explains the situation.

 

[Barelstroker]

Y’all must be kicking the shit out of all kinds of local matches of all disciplines.

.1 rifles........

I'd be lying if said I wasn't jealous.

 

[Tokay444]

Y’all must be kicking the shit out of all kinds of local matches of all disciplines.

.1 rifles........

I shoot for my own enjoyment, and don't have the time to shoot matches. At least not right now.

 

[Steel head]

You can’t “trash your brass” by “over annealing” the neck. It can only simply go back to fully crystallized state and begin being work hardend all over again.

Actually you can, after a certain point you start burning away elements in the brass, you can see this as the flame actually turns color to orange instead of the blue of the gas.
Do this multiple times lightly or a long period and the alloy itself is affected.

 

[Tokay444]

Actually you can, after a certain point you start burning away elements in the brass, you can see this as the flame actually turns color to orange instead of the blue of the gas.
Do this multiple times lightly or a long period and the alloy itself is affected.

And how does that affect the load?

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Can we move past the ad hominem?

Re: burning away elements in brass - What is burning away in the brass? I thought the flame color change is usually from the brass oxidizing - removing the oxy from the flame mix.

 

[supercorndogs]

Honestly most all of these questions are answered if you go do some learning about metallurgy and annealing brass. Unfortunately, what you will learn is what barrelstroker is parroting. When you apply this to your rifle cartridges. Your results may not be very good. Mine weren't. Bad spreads, bad groups, fliers go off target at 600. Not good at all. Ironic getting blamed for parroting something i have read, when I have done, and I am trying to correct someone parroting what they read.

We all anneal before we size. The amount of work hardening from sizing your brass is not going to harden brass that has been annealed too soft. The problem we are hitting is "works great for me" at 1.5 MOA, is garbage to me, and I would be looking for the problem. I can say I ran into the same problem, after learning all these reloader are spreading myths about annealing. I heated some up cherry red, and everything went to shit. Got some new brass, and back at em. But I am a sample of one, so anyone who wants to journey down that road of personal discovery....

 

[supercorndogs]

Can we move past the ad hominem?

Re: burning away elements in brass - What is burning away in the brass? I thought the flame color change is usually from the brass oxidizing - removing the oxy from the flame mix.

https://www.nwmissouri.edu/naturalsciences/sds/b/brass.pdf

High temperatures can produce toxic metallic and/or metal oxide fumes (mostly Cu2O & ZnO).

From MSDS.

Redox - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

Oxidation is the loss of material.

 

[918v]

Fuck annealing.

 

[supercorndogs]

I bet home annealing has ruined more brass than it has saved.

 

[Barelstroker]

Actually you can, after a certain point you start burning away elements in the brass, you can see this as the flame actually turns color to orange instead of the blue of the gas.
Do this multiple times lightly or a long period and the alloy itself is affected.

Not that I'm aware of. I have a study which looked at that issue & the determination was that there is no detrimental effect to the brass. There can be a high temp exide layer on freshly polished brass but, this is only micron thickness & not counted as damage. However, if you can quote any information from a study paper, I'd be happy to see that info.

 

[Barelstroker]

Honestly most all of these questions are answered if you go do some learning about metallurgy and annealing brass. Unfortunately, what you will learn is what barrelstroker is parroting. When you apply this to your rifle cartridges. Your results may not be very good. Mine weren't. Bad spreads, bad groups, fliers go off target at 600. Not good at all. Ironic getting blamed for parroting something i have read, when I have done, and I am trying to correct someone parroting what they read.

We all anneal before we size. The amount of work hardening from sizing your brass is not going to harden brass that has been annealed too soft. The problem we are hitting is "works great for me" at 1.5 MOA, is garbage to me, and I would be looking for the problem. I can say I ran into the same problem, after learning all these reloader are spreading myths about annealing. I heated some up cherry red, and everything went to shit. Got some new brass, and back at em. But I am a sample of one, so anyone who wants to journey down that road of personal discovery....

I'm interested in what you have to say &, I do believe you've tried what you said. I believe you had fliers & all of what you mentioned.
Since it's impossible for any of us to include every detail of the things we explain, I have a few honest, uninflammatory questions regarding the details.
Within the general gist of your story/comments, I've taken it that you were case prepping with your usual regimen & overheated the brass more than normal during your annealing cycle or, did you determine to test at the elevated temps you've explained?
If it was indeed a deliberate test, did you proceed to adjust for the softer brass or make any changes to your normal regimen during the testing?
There is no wrong or right answer, just interested to know what you did &, there'll be no smartass remarks concerning your answers.
Regards.......Barelstroker

 

[lash]

Actually you can, after a certain point you start burning away elements in the brass, you can see this as the flame actually turns color to orange instead of the blue of the gas.
Do this multiple times lightly or a long period and the alloy itself is affected.

I realize that you heard/read this from Primal Rights, but does the yellow really mean what you/he think it does? Just because pure zinc melts below 800F does not mean that it separates itself from an alloy. That’s not how alloys work. I’m not trying to be argumentative here. Oh, and I want to point out that zinc and copper both burn with a greenish-blue flame.

https://www.nwmissouri.edu/naturalsciences/sds/b/brass.pdf

High temperatures can produce toxic metallic and/or metal oxide fumes (mostly Cu2O & ZnO).

From MSDS.

Redox - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

Oxidation is the loss of material.

Yeah, I read the SDS too. Seems pretty exact. “High Temperatures”. Glad that’s cleared up...

And just to complete my being picky post, oxidation is not really the loss of material per se. It is the transfer of electrons at the surface of a metal. Per your link, which is actually about iron/steel...

I bet home annealing has ruined more brass than it has saved.

I’d be willing to take that bet, but then since neither of us has one iota of actual proof, it would be kinda hard to claim a winner, huh?

 

[Barelstroker]

https://www.nwmissouri.edu/naturalsciences/sds/b/brass.pdf

High temperatures can produce toxic metallic and/or metal oxide fumes (mostly Cu2O & ZnO).

From MSDS.

Redox - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

simple.wikipedia.org

Oxidation is the loss of material.

Yes, if you heat anything you get a reaction. I'm not sure that's what is generally understood to be "elements burning out" of the brass though. I haven't noticed anything with mine accept the oxide layer & yes, it is indeed material but, the oxide layer forms just the same anyway, it normally takes days or weeks where flame does the same job in a few seconds. Remember, everything which can react with oxygen will oxidise in the atmosphere. Elevated temps usually accelerate the process.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

https://www.nwmissouri.edu/naturalsciences/sds/b/brass.pdf

High temperatures can produce toxic metallic and/or metal oxide fumes (mostly Cu2O & ZnO).

From MSDS.

“ At temperatures above the melting point, fumes containing metal oxides and other alloying elements may be liberated.”

Not sure that applies to cartridge annealing.

 

[Barelstroker]

How do I know?


Observation, testing, tens of thousands of rounds fired... I have 2 AMP machines, a 21st Century Hydraulic Press, Wilson micrometer dies, the ability to control neck tension to half a thou, Sartorius 64 scale for weighing out exact charges, etc. My rifles shoot under .3 MOA consistently with single digit SD with mag length ammo.

Neck tension is just a variable. I have brass with 8 firings on it that shoots well. Annealing this brass to the degree you propose has ruined accuracy in the past for me and a lot of other people.

I have reloaded and shot brass 25 times, annealing it to 650* three times through its life cycle and did not split one neck, not one.

I have some LC65 Match brass that I annealed with a torch and it shoots barely MOA after many reloads whereas the ones I left alone shoot half moa.

Over annealing kills accuracy, period.

Fair enough, I take your point.
Is softer brass the entire problem though?
If the brass was softer, did you try to make any changes to your neck ID's?
Was your seating force different or the same?
I've no issue with your determinations, I'm just trying to make sense of all this.
I've done a lot reading on some of the BR related sites &, many of those guys seat with very low seating force, 1Lbs, 2Lbs 4Lbs. I've read comments from winning F Class guys who seat with 5Lbs, 8Lbs. My point is, I don't see where the hardness of the brass really comes into all this, other than, it changes one of the fundamentals. Seating force is seating force, regardless of the hardness.
So, in your example here, is it possible you could have fixed or adjusted for that accuracy issue?
You say that softer brass ruins accuracy & it looks to me that in your case that was indeed the situation but, could it be due to a change caused by the softer brass which, could have been adjusted for at the time?

 

[supercorndogs]

I realize that you heard/read this from Primal Rights, but does the yellow really mean what you/he think it does? Just because pure zinc melts below 800F does not mean that it separates itself from an alloy. That’s not how alloys work. I’m not trying to be argumentative here. Oh, and I want to point out that zinc and copper both burn with a greenish-blue flame.

View attachment 7473242



Yeah, I read the SDS too. Seems pretty exact. “High Temperatures”. Glad that’s cleared up...

And just to complete my being picky post, oxidation is not really the loss of material per se. It is the transfer of electrons at the surface of a metal. Per your link, which is actually about iron/steel...

View attachment 7473245


I’d be willing to take that bet, but then since neither of us has one iota of actual proof, it would be kinda hard to claim a winner, huh?

Does corrosion decrease the weight of the metal or not ?

www.engineering.com

What Is The Difference Between Oxidation And Corrosion? - BrightWork Polish

To some, oxidation and corrosion may simply be scientific terms learned back in high school, but as an aircraft owner, you know that they’re much more than that. You simply never want oxidation and corrosion to be associated with your aviation, as it can cause serious deterioration and/or...

brightworkpolish.com

The link i provided is about oxidation not rust. Here are some more. You can go as deep as you want

We can mince words and say oxidation doesn't remove material, Ok oxidation does not remove the material. Wiping the oxidation off removes the material.

Oxidation is degradation.

 

[Tokay444]

Rust IS oxidation.

 

[supercorndogs]

No oxidation is the process of loosing electrons, rust is the product when it happens to iron.

I don't think what you are seeing on the case after the orange flame up is oxidation. Some one please support their hypothesis. I can't find anything to support the hypotheses that what you are wiping off and calling oxidation is oxidation.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I don't think what you are seeing on the case after the orange flame up is oxidation. Some one please support their hypothesis.

Since I said it first - I don't have any proof. I offered it as an alternative to the original proposition that the flame was somehow 'burning away material' or 'producing oxide fumes.' Since only about 5% of oxide fumes come from the piece being welded, and the vast majority of welding fumes come from processing the welding consumables, I don't find it a satisfactory explanation. I propose it's similar to forge scale - which we see when there is incomplete oxygen burn happening next to hot metal. Copper 2 oxide is produced by heating copper, which produces black oxide. It was an easy logical leap to make.

Makes me wonder though, If we pushed more o2 to the flame would it still turn orange mid way through the 20s burn? And if it does stay blue, is there also a decrease of black coloration on the case? @Barelstroker , want to run that oxy acetylene torch with a large excess of oxy?

 

[supercorndogs]

That would be more plausible as well as being being supported visually by what we see on the case after the flame up. I set up my time by brass color. Generally that flame up is around the dull glow I would look for. I don't think there are too many people shooting the difference between annealed, and not. I think a lot of people are probably loosing primer pockets before their brass needs annealed.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

You could make that statement about many loading practices, and it would be true depending on what your shooting discipline was. 3 gun, shit man, mix random 36 gr varmint grenades and 77 TMKs in the same mag and I'd do just as poorly.

I do have some belief that you can see a difference in annealing - I shot multiple sets of the same ammo, where I flame annealed (propane torch and 750 tempilaq) half. There was no difference at the chronograph, but there was a small difference in group size across a couple of groups. The problem is with compounding variables - I didn't measure neck tension or seating force. I couldn't say definitively that annealing made the groups smaller, but that's what my limited testing looked like.

 

[Barelstroker]

Here's some info from AMP on High temp annealing.
Industrial annealing of 70/30 cartridge brass is undertaken routinely at 700 C as well.
Based on the proceeding information, I think it's fair to say that we've established that high temp annealing has no adverse effects from a metallurgical aspect.

The basics of cartridge brass:

1. We submitted six representative cases from five manufacturers for chemical analysis. They were all consistent with UNS C26000 specifications for cartridge brass, within analytical margin of error. (see Appendix 1 - 1.1 and Appendix 4).
2. Cartridge brass melts at 915°C (1679°F). Up to that temperature it remains homogeneous (Appendix 1 - 1.1).
3. Dezincification of brass can occur because of chemical attack, but heating brass, even to high annealing temperatures cannot cause dezincification unless chemicals are present. The zinc content of the alloy cannot burn or melt out up until boiling point (Appendix 1 - 1.6).
4. Brass becomes harder with cold work such as drawing, stamping, forming etc., and softer when heated to annealing temperatures.
5. The hardness of thin wall brass sections should be measured using micro hardness Vickers or Knoop testers (Appendix 1 - 1.2). Conventional Rockwell and Brinell equipment is not best suited to this application. The Vickers hardness scale is expressed as HV, with lower numbers being softer and higher numbers harder i.e. 50 HV is softer than 100HV.
6. From testing on cross sections, the neck hardness of virgin cases from the two major brands tested averaged 100 HV. The hardness half way to the case head averaged 190 HV and the heads were 185 – 218 HV. The head hardness is variable depending on the region of the head being measured. (Appendix 2 figures 6.3, 6.12 and 6.13.)

 

[Barelstroker]

You could make that statement about many loading practices, and it would be true depending on what your shooting discipline was. 3 gun, shit man, mix random 36 gr varmint grenades and 77 TMKs in the same mag and I'd do just as poorly.

I do have some belief that you can see a difference in annealing - I shot multiple sets of the same ammo, where I flame annealed (propane torch and 750 tempilaq) half. There was no difference at the chronograph, but there was a small difference in group size across a couple of groups. The problem is with compounding variables - I didn't measure neck tension or seating force. I couldn't say definitively that annealing made the groups smaller, but that's what my limited testing looked like.

I've never viewed annealing of any kind to be a magic recipe for tiny groups. That's not why I anneal the way I do.
Annealing has always been viewed as a process which brings stability to the case batch hardness.
918v & supercorndogs are not the only guys who claim that overheating the brass from their normal regimen, ruins accuracy &, I accept that, however, I'm not yet prepared to accept that, as a blanket statement which implies that softer brass cannot be tweaked in the same manner as harder brass. I don't see why slightly softer necks would cause the kind of change which would render a case totally & forever unworkable with regards to accuracy.
Thanks for posting your limited testing. It's all part of getting to the facts about the process.
Regards.....Barelstroker

 

[never_summer]

How do you size your brass? @Barelstroker
Do you FL size it then expand with a mandrel?

 

[Barelstroker]

How do you size your brass? @Barelstroker
Do you FL size it then expand with a mandrel?

Yes, FLS always. I left NS years ago.
Yes, I have been mandrel expanding the necks after FLS during neck tension testing.

 

[never_summer]

Yes, FLS always. I left NS years ago.
Yes, I have been mandrel expanding the necks after FLS during neck tension testing.

Just curious nothing probing here. But do you see any differences in headspace between fl size and after mandrel? I had a set of cases I torched longer than usual, just starting with annealing, and when I went to expand them my headspace was all over the place after. Might have been an oddity, I don’t have as much reloading experience as most on here

 

[Barelstroker]

Just curious nothing probing here. But do you see any differences in headspace between fl size and after mandrel? I had a set of cases I torched longer than usual, just starting with annealing, and when I went to expand them my headspace was all over the place after. Might have been an oddity, I don’t have as much reloading experience as most on here

Yep, certainly have noticed that phenomenon. I have varied headspace or base to datum issues with un-annealed 270 win cases but, the softer annealed cases with all my other cartridge types can cause grief if the neck ID is not sufficiently lubed. I believe the expander ball pulls the shoulder up on it's way back up out of the neck if not lubed adequately.
I believe this explains why guys using full length bushing dies without expander ball seem to report more consistent sizing results.
As for difference after using a mandrel, no, not as yet. The mandrel I presently use is 0.001 larger than bullet OD &, because my case necks are quite malleable, I haven't had that issue to date.
Sorry, got off track there a bit.

Regards.........Barelstroker

 

[Barelstroker]

Yep, certainly have noticed that phenomenon. I have varied headspace or base to datum issues with un-annealed 270 win cases but, the softer annealed cases with all my other cartridge types can cause grief if the neck ID is not sufficiently lubed. I believe the expander ball pulls the shoulder up on it's way back up out of the neck if not lubed adequately.
I believe this explains why guys using full length bushing dies without expander ball seem to report more consistent sizing results.
As for difference after using a mandrel, no, not as yet. The mandrel I presently use is 0.0005 larger than bullet OD &, because my case necks are quite malleable, I haven't had that issue to date.
Sorry, got off track there a bit.

Regards.........Barelstroker

For clarification.
My main focus in using a mandrel is not geared primarily toward setting neck tension perse. My use of the mandrel is to push the neck/shoulder junction out slightly greater than bullet OD. I do this before setting final neck ID in order to achieve perfectly parallel neck walls. Combined with the softer brass, this produces excellent seating consistency. In explanation; during normal FLS, the neck/shoulder junction is of course pushed in toward the centre &, because that area is thicker brass, the end result causes the neck to take on a funnel shape which, causes increased seating force as the bullet is seated deeper toward the N/S junction. Although seating force will naturally increase, the further into the neck the bullet is pushed, parallel necks are subject only to increasing friction due to increasing material & not increasing effort caused by decreasing ID of the neck.
Hope this helps.
Regards........Barelstroker.