Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths

[Barelstroker]

View attachment 7514095

The one on the left is new unfired and annealed in the AMP. The one on the right has been fired a bunch of times and then annealed. Why does it look like it hasn’t been annealed?

I think you'll find it's a result of the difference in the oxidation layer (patina) of the particular cases.
The case on the left has a darker hue which is a good indicator that some time has passed since it was cleaned & as a result, the patina is now present &, reacts with the heat.

 

[Barelstroker]

I don't know what you're referring to. If brass does not have a modulus of elasticity, then there is no such thing as neck tension. It is the elasticity of the metal that creates the tension. Without it, there is none. Hardness does not create tension, and neither does temperature, flame color, brass colors, or crystallization. The only thing that directly affects neck tension is elasticity. If a bullet is inserted in a neck, and the brass is not trying to spring back towards the diameter the neck was sized to, then there's no tension at all, just a little friction. I don't believe that "springback... doesn't really exist for rifle brass alloys." I am sure they do indeed have a Young's modulus.

If the brass is in it's normal form, it must have a modulus of elasticity regardless of hardness. This is the crux of the entire matter though isn't it.
If elasticity changes with molecular tension &, molecular tension changes with hardness, how do those changes manifest &, by what measurable amount do those changes effect neck tension, velocity ES/SD's & group size.
So, if we can't know the exact hardness through measurement, what can we do to try to achieve brass consistency?

 

[Western Living]

Also, necks are seldom perfectly round. Did you measure them in the same spot?

Did you measure them at the same temperature?

I understand they can be oval, so I measured them at several places around the circumference of the neck.

They were all the same temperature. The ones that were annealed with the torch had that done days before, so everything was at the room temperature.

Again, I consider these things anecdotes. I encourage the curious to try it themselves because it's easy. Results may vary and I won't have an explanation for everything. I am, however, easily convinced that brass has elasticity and that it will bend a certain amount and spring back, and beyond that amount it will yield and exhibit plastic deformation. I think it is convincing that brass springs.

Where my anecdotes are not particularly convincing is in comparing annealed to un-annealed. Even if the differences I observed are accepted, so what? What does it mean? Why do we care? I can hardly begin to answer those things to anyone else's satisfaction. So I will leave it at encouraging the curious to try things for themselves.

Based on my personal observations, I suspect that heating brass necks with the propane torch in the typical fashion reduces the spring temper. This could be used to manipulate neck tension because the process carried out consistently could be used to generally equalize the spring temper of a population of cases. The benefit of this would depend on how disparate the spring temper in the population was before treatment. It could also be used to generally equalize this elasticity between two different populations of cases -- for example, a batch of new and another batch of repeatedly used. I cannot prove this convincingly. I can quantify the "spring back" to a certain degree by measuring it, but it is likely that this disparity among different individual cases and between different batches of cases are too subtle for my tools to quantify meaningfully. I can't control other variables adequately, and so it is just an anecdote that could support theoretical conjecture.

 

[Barelstroker]

I understand they can be oval, so I measured them at several places around the circumference of the neck.

They were all the same temperature. The ones that were annealed with the torch had that done days before, so everything was at the room temperature.

Again, I consider these things anecdotes. I encourage the curious to try it themselves because it's easy. Results may vary and I won't have an explanation for everything. I am, however, easily convinced that brass has elasticity and that it will bend a certain amount and spring back, and beyond that amount it will yield and exhibit plastic deformation. I think it is convincing that brass springs.

Where my anecdotes are not particularly convincing is in comparing annealed to un-annealed. Even if the differences I observed are accepted, so what? What does it mean? Why do we care? I can hardly begin to answer those things to anyone else's satisfaction. So I will leave it at encouraging the curious to try things for themselves.

Based on my personal observations, I suspect that heating brass necks with the propane torch in the typical fashion reduces the spring temper. This could be used to manipulate neck tension because the process carried out consistently could be used to generally equalize the spring temper of a population of cases. The benefit of this would depend on how disparate the spring temper in the population was before treatment. It could also be used to generally equalize this elasticity between two different populations of cases -- for example, a batch of new and another batch of repeatedly used. I cannot prove this convincingly. I can quantify the "spring back" to a certain degree by measuring it, but it is likely that this disparity among different individual cases and between different batches of cases are too subtle for my tools to quantify meaningfully. I can't control other variables adequately, and so it is just an anecdote that could support theoretical conjecture.

Do you seat projectiles with a Wilson seating die & seating force gauge?

 

[supercorndogs]

We aren't actually trying to "anneal brass." We are trying to make more consistent cases for our reloading. Perhaps calling it "annealing" causes confusion for the new reloader who is looking for the "secret" to better ammo. The secret is, there is no secret. If you are curious about how to make good ammo. Reloading and shooting should be a corner stone of that process, and very likely considering advice from the people like Orkan, and 918V.


The surface finish idea is an interesting one. I will have to get out my microscope and look at at this Peterson brass before I start firing it. Brass from Wolff gold ammo is the only brass I have tried that doesn't change color when "annealing" once fired. They all change color less on subsequent firings in my observations. Hornady, Lapua, Winchester, LC, Nosler, Starline and Remington anyway.

An easy test would be to scratch a neck up with some sand paper on some 10x and "anneal" it.

 

[White_Shark]

I've been following this thread for a bit and figure it would be good to join in and offer up some capabilities that can help us all understand the process better. I handle quality control at Jagemann brass where we have the capability to do the metallurgical testing that can help provide some insight into the process. A lot of the questions I've read have not been something we have really worried about from a manufacturing standpoint as our customers generally only have basic requirements for hardness and minimum tension so we have never had to delve too deeply into the metallurgy involved.

As I am a nerd and always want to learn more, I figure what better way than to design some experiments that we wouldn't necessarily consider from a bulk manufacturing standpoint. I'll answer what questions I can from current experience, or work through some ways to test some theories.

Our capabilities:
Vickers hardness testing
Induction annealing
Flame annealing
Ammonia vapor testing
Electrolytic polishing/grain structure analysis
Push/pull force testing
Pressure/Velocity testing for certain calibers (some calibers conformal, some port, EPVAT)

While I don't have the time to do every type of testing everybody would like, I will do what I can to work through some experiments. Obviously I have a much larger supply of JAG brass to work with, but do have small amounts of competitor samples for experimentation as well.

 

[Barelstroker]

I've been following this thread for a bit and figure it would be good to join in and offer up some capabilities that can help us all understand the process better. I handle quality control at Jagemann brass where we have the capability to do the metallurgical testing that can help provide some insight into the process. A lot of the questions I've read have not been something we have really worried about from a manufacturing standpoint as our customers generally only have basic requirements for hardness and minimum tension so we have never had to delve too deeply into the metallurgy involved.

As I am a nerd and always want to learn more, I figure what better way than to design some experiments that we wouldn't necessarily consider from a bulk manufacturing standpoint. I'll answer what questions I can from current experience, or work through some ways to test some theories.

Our capabilities:
Vickers hardness testing
Induction annealing
Flame annealing
Ammonia vapor testing
Electrolytic polishing/grain structure analysis
Push/pull force testing
Pressure/Velocity testing for certain calibers (some calibers conformal, some port, EPVAT)

While I don't have the time to do every type of testing everybody would like, I will do what I can to work through some experiments. Obviously I have a much larger supply of JAG brass to work with, but do have small amounts of competitor samples for experimentation as well.

Thoughtful offer.
I'm not sure how hardness testing to derive a figure would help much though.
As supercorndogs has correctly stated, most guys aren't really annealing &, the most important results are measured by firing the cartridges.
Take my situation for example. I can't measure the hardness of my annealed cases but, I know it's considerably softer.
I can measure relative hardness with a seating force gauge & the case to case consistency.
I know from the experimental results of commissioned studies that, if I anneal at >700 C for >5 seconds, I should achieve 100% recrystallization which, automatically brings the cases to reasonably consistent hardness.
I have many months of testing yet but, everything seems positive for the moment.
It's very early days yet but, with my last batch of velocity testing are anything to go by, supercorndogs is not going to be a happy camper.
Regards...........Barelstroker.

 

[orkan]

If you rough up the brass, like by turning the necks, the same thing happens.

I too have noticed this. I think I'm a bit more lazy than you are @918v... because early on when learning to anneal, I learned I could not trust brass color at all, and subsequently ignored it from that moment on. It seemed to have no bearing on how the brass performed, so I did not go in search of what was causing it to not display the color characteristics that made any sense. That's why the flame color change was such an important breakthrough for me. From that moment on, I looked at annealing as a lightswitch op rather than a rheostat. It was either done, or not done. Orange color change in the flame happens no matter the color of brass, atmospheric condition, manufacturer of brass, lot number, cartridge, neck thickness, etc. It's the only method I have come up with for flame annealing that provides desirable results on target across every variable present. It probably also helps that I anneal dirty. Annealing is the very first thing that happens to fired brass in my reloading process.

Reloading and shooting should be a corner stone of that process

I am in resounding agreement. So much hand wringing about metallurgy which keeps these threads hostile and combative. Having an expert level understanding of annealing brass at the atomic level is not required for annealing to have a positive affect on your performance down range. All you need to do is buy an AMP, or use any flame to anneal as I specified, waiting for the orange flame color change... and you can properly anneal. Either method is very simple, very effective, and literally anyone can do it. In my opinion, all threads like these do, is discourage people from beginning the process. They look here for advice, and all they see is a lack of consensus, which makes them think its a super difficult thing to do. When in reality, its only the academics that can be found arguing all the time. Those of us that have shooting better as the goal, are in 100% agreement.

Annealing works, should be done every firing, and is super easy to do properly. <<< THAT should be the overarching message in every annealing thread. Instead, threads like this are one friendly fire incident after the next. Some of you are really not taking that message to heart, and it sucks. Beyond that, the only reasonable resolution to a problem like this among shooters, is to show up with your rifle, put some tiny targets down range, and let the separation of the men from the boys commence.

 

[Steel head]

I too have noticed this. I think I'm a bit more lazy than you are @918v... because early on when learning to anneal, I learned I could not trust brass color at all, and subsequently ignored it from that moment on. It seemed to have no bearing on how the brass performed, so I did not go in search of what was causing it to not display the color characteristics that made any sense. That's why the flame color change was such an important breakthrough for me. From that moment on, I looked at annealing as a lightswitch op rather than a rheostat. It was either done, or not done. Orange color change in the flame happens no matter the color of brass, atmospheric condition, manufacturer of brass, lot number, cartridge, neck thickness, etc. It's the only method I have come up with for flame annealing that provides desirable results on target across every variable present. It probably also helps that I anneal dirty. Annealing is the very first thing that happens to fired brass in my reloading process.

I am in resounding agreement. So much hand wringing about metallurgy which keeps these threads hostile and combative. Having an expert level understanding of annealing brass at the atomic level is not required for annealing to have a positive affect on your performance down range. All you need to do is buy an AMP, or use any flame to anneal as I specified, waiting for the orange flame color change... and you can properly anneal. Either method is very simple, very effective, and literally anyone can do it. In my opinion, all threads like these do, is discourage people from beginning the process. They look here for advice, and all they see is a lack of consensus, which makes them think its a super difficult thing to do. When in reality, its only the academics that can be found arguing all the time. Those of us that have shooting better as the goal, are in 100% agreement.

Annealing works, should be done every firing, and is super easy to do properly. <<< THAT should be the overarching message in every annealing thread. Instead, threads like this are one friendly fire incident after the next. Some of you are really not taking that message to heart, and it sucks. Beyond that, the only reasonable resolution to a problem like this among shooters, is to show up with your rifle, put some tiny targets down range, and let the separation of the men from the boys commence.

I still use the flame color method you made a video about years ago.
It made annealing easy.
I don’t worry or think about it anymore.

 

[orkan]

I still use the flame color method you made a video about years ago.
It made annealing easy.
I don’t worry or think about it anymore.

That is outstanding... and I'm glad to hear it! That is exactly the result that video was made to produce.

 

[Tokay444]

In my experience, 11 seconds on Lapua SRP 6.5 Creedmoor brass at 550°c in a liquid salt up to the shoulder/body junction yields extremely consistent single digit ES across 5 or more shots, and consistent 1/4 moa 5 shot groups or less on paper, and I can stress relive two at a time.

 

[supercorndogs]

I get mine in about 3 to 3.5 seconds on a Giruad. It drops onto a 1/4" 2/3rds ISPC that sinks the heat out of the brass very quickly. I set the machine by looking for the glow in the dark and speed it up if I see the flame up happening. I anneal dirty as the first part of my process. The "flame up" was probably one of the most useful pieces of information ever given to the home annealer. It is probably one of the only useful things you will find online when searching for information about "annealing" cases. Its been years since I watched the video, but it changed the way I thought about annealing and the way I annealed.

 

[spife7980]

I get mine in about 3 to 3.5 seconds on a Giruad. It drops onto a 1/4" 2/3rds ISPC that sinks the heat out of the brass very quickly. I set the machine by looking for the glow in the dark and speed it up if I see the flame up happening. I anneal dirty as the first part of my process. The "flame up" was probably one of the most useful pieces of information ever given to the home annealer. It is probably one of the only useful things you will find online when searching for information about "annealing" cases. Its been years since I watched the video, but it changed the way I thought about annealing and the way I annealed.

I use 750 tempilaq in my Annie and after I had found my setting I annealed outside at night I noticed that the point my tempilaq indicated was also the same time that they just started to glow red in no/very low light.

 

[salks]

I don't know what you're referring to. If brass does not have a modulus of elasticity, then there is no such thing as neck tension. It is the elasticity of the metal that creates the tension. Without it, there is none. Hardness does not create tension, and neither does temperature, flame color, brass colors, or crystalization. The only thing that directly affects neck tension is elasticity. If a bullet is inserted in a neck, and the brass is not trying to spring back towards the diameter the neck was sized to, then there's no tension at all, just a little friction. I don't believe that "springback... doesn't really exist for rifle brass alloys." I am sure they do indeed have a Young's modulus.

Would a material that was harder not have less elasticity?

 

[918v]

I think you'll find it's a result of the difference in the oxidation layer (patina) of the particular cases.
The case on the left has a darker hue which is a good indicator that some time has passed since it was cleaned & as a result, the patina is now present &, reacts with the heat.

Nope. A multi fired case, even if you let it sit for months, will not acquire that annealing oxide it did when it was new.

 

[Barelstroker]

I too have noticed this. I think I'm a bit more lazy than you are @918v... because early on when learning to anneal, I learned I could not trust brass color at all, and subsequently ignored it from that moment on. It seemed to have no bearing on how the brass performed, so I did not go in search of what was causing it to not display the color characteristics that made any sense. That's why the flame color change was such an important breakthrough for me. From that moment on, I looked at annealing as a lightswitch op rather than a rheostat. It was either done, or not done. Orange color change in the flame happens no matter the color of brass, atmospheric condition, manufacturer of brass, lot number, cartridge, neck thickness, etc. It's the only method I have come up with for flame annealing that provides desirable results on target across every variable present. It probably also helps that I anneal dirty. Annealing is the very first thing that happens to fired brass in my reloading process.

I am in resounding agreement. So much hand wringing about metallurgy which keeps these threads hostile and combative. Having an expert level understanding of annealing brass at the atomic level is not required for annealing to have a positive affect on your performance down range. All you need to do is buy an AMP, or use any flame to anneal as I specified, waiting for the orange flame color change... and you can properly anneal. Either method is very simple, very effective, and literally anyone can do it. In my opinion, all threads like these do, is discourage people from beginning the process. They look here for advice, and all they see is a lack of consensus, which makes them think its a super difficult thing to do. When in reality, its only the academics that can be found arguing all the time. Those of us that have shooting better as the goal, are in 100% agreement.

Annealing works, should be done every firing, and is super easy to do properly. <<< THAT should be the overarching message in every annealing thread. Instead, threads like this are one friendly fire incident after the next. Some of you are really not taking that message to heart, and it sucks. Beyond that, the only reasonable resolution to a problem like this among shooters, is to show up with your rifle, put some tiny targets down range, and let the separation of the men from the boys commence.

I don't think the guys at AMP would agree with your assessment. They seem to have made annealing a scientifically based subject.
Amp have published temperatures of around 550 C (1020 F). From your video, I guess those cases necks are reaching 400 F maybe 500 F, why do you assume that it all just finishes up the same?
So, if you were a guy wanting to get into annealing &, you watched a video of a guy proclaiming that the best way to anneal is to watch the flame color change from burning off who knows what random chemicals, lubes, skin oils, whatever, off the brass or, AMP, who have gone to some very considerable expense to prove to their customers with, accepted scientific methodology & testing that, their product does actually do something positive, which one would you expect that guy to trust in making a decision?
I'm not trying be an asshole but, this is where this shit is at now.
All I have done is, educate myself on the scientifically proven results of how & why brass anneals &, use that information to try something myself.
On the subject of the flame colour change. If I polish the patina off the cases & heat that case to glowing orange, there's little to no flame colour change. If I don't polish the case, the flame will burn orange within a few seconds. What could that possibly have to do with the temperature of the brass?

 

[orkan]

I don't think the guys at AMP would agree with your assessment. They seem to have made annealing a scientifically based subject.
Amp have published temperatures of around 550 C (1020 F). From your video, I guess those cases necks are reaching 400 F maybe 500 F, why do you assume that it all just finishes up the same?
So, if you were a guy wanting to get into annealing &, you watched a video of a guy proclaiming that the best way to anneal is to watch the flame color change from burning off who knows what random chemicals, lubes, skin oils, whatever, off the brass or, AMP, who have gone to some very considerable expense to prove to their customers with, accepted scientific methodology & testing that, their product does actually do something positive, which one would you expect that guy to trust in making a decision?
I'm not trying be an asshole but, this is where this shit is at now.
All I have done is, educate myself on the scientifically proven results of how & why brass anneals &, use that information to try something myself.
On the subject of the flame colour change. If I polish the patina off the cases & heat that case to glowing orange, there's little to no flame colour change. If I don't polish the case, the flame will burn orange within a few seconds. What could that possibly have to do with the temperature of the brass?

You have made the choice to ignore every aspect of my posts that would cause us to be able to agree, and focus entirely and intensely on all the things that would cause us to disagree, interpreting them in ways never intended nor expected by any rational person. In doing so, you decided to have an argument with me. An argument that completely ignores my experience in this discipline in the process. What's more, is you decided all on your own to put me in opposition of "the guys at AMP." Simultaneously declaring my ignorance, and their opposition to me... speaking for them, as it were. You must be really close with them to take that kind of liberty.

Given the reality of how you're choosing to speak to me, there isn't much choice is there? You win. You must know more than I. You must be more accomplished than I. You must understand my own mindset and beliefs, even more than I. Odd, considering we've never spoken... but there it is anyway. Why would I engage in a dialog with someone behaving that way? Why would I argue against something I never said, nor believe? I don't even get a chance to try to figure out who you are... or what your accomplishments may be... or really know anything about you. You apparently think you've more knowledge and experience than I... and since you believe so strongly, who am I to argue with you? Heck, you can even guess the temperature of case necks by watching a video. You must really be someone important, greatly respected in this discipline, to speak to me as you have.

Neat thing about you deciding to have an argument with me; I can decide not to have one with you. My humblest apologies, and I'll kindly leave you to... what ever it is you do. I'm headed out of this thread, and back to shooting, which is what I do. I hope that will help you feel proud, and accomplished.

 

[Barelstroker]

You have made the choice to ignore every aspect of my posts that would cause us to be able to agree, and focus entirely and intensely on all the things that would cause us to disagree, interpreting them in ways never intended nor expected by any rational person. In doing so, you decided to have an argument with me. An argument that completely ignores my experience in this discipline in the process. What's more, is you decided all on your own to put me in opposition of "the guys at AMP." Simultaneously declaring my ignorance, and their opposition to me... speaking for them, as it were. You must be really close with them to take that kind of liberty.

Given the reality of how you're choosing to speak to me, there isn't much choice is there? You win. You must know more than I. You must be more accomplished than I. You must understand my own mindset and beliefs, even more than I. Odd, considering we've never spoken... but there it is anyway. Why would I engage in a dialog with someone behaving that way? Why would I argue against something I never said, nor believe? I don't even get a chance to try to figure out who you are... or what your accomplishments may be... or really know anything about you. You apparently think you've more knowledge and experience than I... and since you believe so strongly, who am I to argue with you? Heck, you can even guess the temperature of case necks by watching a video. You must really be someone important, greatly respected in this discipline, to speak to me as you have.

Neat thing about you deciding to have an argument with me; I can decide not to have one with you. My humblest apologies, and I'll kindly leave you to... what ever it is you do. I'm headed out of this thread, and back to shooting, which is what I do. I hope that will help you feel proud, and accomplished.

No, I don't think I'm as knowledgeable as you are shooting &, have never claimed to be.
You & many others get excellent results down range & contrary to what you seem to think, I actually put a great deal of emphasis on this information. You anneal the way you anneal & that's fine with me, have at it but, if I consult an annealing chart, it's obvious to me that what you think is occurring isn't really occurring. Now that's fine, still no problem from my perspective. If I put those facts together,
1) You are a known accomplished shooter & have proven results.
2) By the charts, your annealing really can't be making much of a difference. (I'm sorry but, that's how it is)
If I put those 2 together, I see what I've always seen &, that is that, the hardness of the brass doesn't make a lot, if any difference. It may in future turn out that 100% recrystalized brass works as well but, I don't foresee soft brass performing better.
Neck tension seems as if it makes a measurable difference but, neck tension can be set to anything the loader desires &, is not tied to the hardness of the brass.
This whole convoluted annealing situation of unsupported claims of what annealing does & how to anneal was well in motion before you started annealing. You've lain upon a sheet of fine silk, covering a bed of nails.
We've all done it, you're not alone.
Regards..............Barelstroker

 

[MTB doc]

You have made the choice to ignore every aspect of my posts that would cause us to be able to agree, and focus entirely and intensely on all the things that would cause us to disagree, interpreting them in ways never intended nor expected by any rational person. In doing so, you decided to have an argument with me. An argument that completely ignores my experience in this discipline in the process. What's more, is you decided all on your own to put me in opposition of "the guys at AMP." Simultaneously declaring my ignorance, and their opposition to me... speaking for them, as it were. You must be really close with them to take that kind of liberty.

Given the reality of how you're choosing to speak to me, there isn't much choice is there? You win. You must know more than I. You must be more accomplished than I. You must understand my own mindset and beliefs, even more than I. Odd, considering we've never spoken... but there it is anyway. Why would I engage in a dialog with someone behaving that way? Why would I argue against something I never said, nor believe? I don't even get a chance to try to figure out who you are... or what your accomplishments may be... or really know anything about you. You apparently think you've more knowledge and experience than I... and since you believe so strongly, who am I to argue with you? Heck, you can even guess the temperature of case necks by watching a video. You must really be someone important, greatly respected in this discipline, to speak to me as you have.

Neat thing about you deciding to have an argument with me; I can decide not to have one with you. My humblest apologies, and I'll kindly leave you to... what ever it is you do. I'm headed out of this thread, and back to shooting, which is what I do. I hope that will help you feel proud, and accomplished.

"You have made the choice to ignore every aspect of my posts that would cause us to be able to agree, and focus entirely and intensely on all the things that would cause us to disagree, interpreting them in ways never intended nor expected by any rational person. In doing so, you decided to have an argument with me. An argument that completely ignores my experience in this discipline in the process. What's more, is you decided all on your own to put me in opposition of"

@orkan: I have noticed you recently have professed a softer, more 'open-ended' stance regarding posting knowledge, experience, etc, type issues.

Where was this attitude in your aggressive posts regarding RimX and Keystone?

 

[supercorndogs]

Some sand got deep in someones vagina. Just because you are butt hurt, doesn't mean you have to tell us all about it. Maybe take back to the other thread, or go beat your pillow with your purse until you feel better.

 

[Barelstroker]

"You have made the choice to ignore every aspect of my posts that would cause us to be able to agree, and focus entirely and intensely on all the things that would cause us to disagree, interpreting them in ways never intended nor expected by any rational person. In doing so, you decided to have an argument with me. An argument that completely ignores my experience in this discipline in the process. What's more, is you decided all on your own to put me in opposition of"

@orkan: I have noticed you recently have professed a softer, more 'open-ended' stance regarding posting knowledge, experience, etc, type issues.

Where was this attitude in your aggressive posts regarding RimX and Keystone?

Oh well, it's never a harm to keep oneself in check, even though my recollection of the most aggressive posts was between myself & supercorndogs.
If you recall, this thread began with a guy who tried to set some very provable fallacies straight. He was harassed & vilified because many guys had not been cautious with public proclamations & could see the writing on the wall. I've stated before how perpetuity can be a hard, unforgiving mistress &, so she is but, not by any fault of those who proclaim the truth. Perpetuity visits those who treat truth & fact with contempt. And so here we are!

 

[MTB doc]

Oh well, it's never a harm to keep oneself in check, even though my recollection of the most aggressive posts was between myself & supercorndogs.
If you recall, this thread began with a guy who tried to set some very provable fallacies straight. He was harassed & vilified because many guys had not been cautious with public proclamations & could see the writing on the wall. I've stated before how perpetuity can be a hard, unforgiving mistress &, so she is but, not by any fault of those who proclaim the truth. Perpetuity visits those who treat truth & fact with contempt. And so here we are!

Well stated Barelstroker. Over the years I have seen this play out in the medical field as well.

 

[Barelstroker]

Some sand got deep in someones vagina. Just because you are butt hurt, doesn't mean you have to tell us all about it. Maybe take back to the other thread, or go beat your pillow with your purse until you feel better.

I was wondering when you'd chime in.
You've got it all wrong my friend, after all, it isn't I that has leapt without looking or sprung my own booby trap.
After all is said & done, I DO NOT enjoy that the situation is as such but, it is what it is.

 

[Barelstroker]

You have made the choice to ignore every aspect of my posts that would cause us to be able to agree, and focus entirely and intensely on all the things that would cause us to disagree, interpreting them in ways never intended nor expected by any rational person. In doing so, you decided to have an argument with me. An argument that completely ignores my experience in this discipline in the process. What's more, is you decided all on your own to put me in opposition of "the guys at AMP." Simultaneously declaring my ignorance, and their opposition to me... speaking for them, as it were. You must be really close with them to take that kind of liberty.

Given the reality of how you're choosing to speak to me, there isn't much choice is there? You win. You must know more than I. You must be more accomplished than I. You must understand my own mindset and beliefs, even more than I. Odd, considering we've never spoken... but there it is anyway. Why would I engage in a dialog with someone behaving that way? Why would I argue against something I never said, nor believe? I don't even get a chance to try to figure out who you are... or what your accomplishments may be... or really know anything about you. You apparently think you've more knowledge and experience than I... and since you believe so strongly, who am I to argue with you? Heck, you can even guess the temperature of case necks by watching a video. You must really be someone important, greatly respected in this discipline, to speak to me as you have.

Neat thing about you deciding to have an argument with me; I can decide not to have one with you. My humblest apologies, and I'll kindly leave you to... what ever it is you do. I'm headed out of this thread, and back to shooting, which is what I do. I hope that will help you feel proud, and accomplished.

orkan said 'Neat thing about you deciding to have an argument with me; I can decide not to have one with you. My humblest apologies, and I'll kindly leave you to... what ever it is you do. I'm headed out of this thread, and back to shooting, which is what I do. I hope that will help you feel proud, and accomplished.
Expand signature.
"I hope you feel proud & accomplished"
What a cowardly thing to say!
So you're hoping that everyone will feel sorry for you & that they'll see I've wronged you terribly.
I must admit, I missed that comment the 1st time I read your post.
I thought, "I'll read it again to be sure I'm being fair" &, what do I see?
Yeah, I think you'd best run along sonny. After that diminishing reply, I wouldn't return either. You're wasting valuable time away from telling you're friends how much of a cunt I am. Even though I probably am.
Disgusted regards ............Barelstroker.

 

[Barelstroker]

You have made the choice to ignore every aspect of my posts that would cause us to be able to agree, and focus entirely and intensely on all the things that would cause us to disagree, interpreting them in ways never intended nor expected by any rational person. In doing so, you decided to have an argument with me. An argument that completely ignores my experience in this discipline in the process. What's more, is you decided all on your own to put me in opposition of "the guys at AMP." Simultaneously declaring my ignorance, and their opposition to me... speaking for them, as it were. You must be really close with them to take that kind of liberty.

Given the reality of how you're choosing to speak to me, there isn't much choice is there? You win. You must know more than I. You must be more accomplished than I. You must understand my own mindset and beliefs, even more than I. Odd, considering we've never spoken... but there it is anyway. Why would I engage in a dialog with someone behaving that way? Why would I argue against something I never said, nor believe? I don't even get a chance to try to figure out who you are... or what your accomplishments may be... or really know anything about you. You apparently think you've more knowledge and experience than I... and since you believe so strongly, who am I to argue with you? Heck, you can even guess the temperature of case necks by watching a video. You must really be someone important, greatly respected in this discipline, to speak to me as you have.

Neat thing about you deciding to have an argument with me; I can decide not to have one with you. My humblest apologies, and I'll kindly leave you to... what ever it is you do. I'm headed out of this thread, and back to shooting, which is what I do. I hope that will help you feel proud, and accomplished.

I think It important to address your comment that ;
"You must be really close with them to take that kind of liberty"
I've never met them or, had any kind of contact with them.
Is it really so difficult for you to understand the glaring differences between what you are saying &, what they're saying & why they're saying it. The choice certainly isn't difficult.
The world & physics isn't about what we all individually think it should be. People called scientists devote their lives to testing & explaining how things really, actually work &, anyone with the least intelligence would use the published information that these scientists work so hard to find &, learn by that.
In case you haven't cottoned on, the problem was never that you were wrong. In your vids, you are sincere & believe in what you're doing. That's not a problem for me but, when a guy is told & shown & refuses out of pride & arrogance to acknowledge that the information which began this thread may be worth considering, then I personally see a problem with that. You've been too long having your ass licked & your ego stroked & so, you resort poorly to a few of the rhetorical devices.
You'd have been far better off admitting that, you may have been incorrect but, you are willing to learn, however, you didn't &, here we are.

 

[spife7980]

As a person who has been on both sides of these arguments for years I think the difference is that its a person who has read a study and thinks they know how that relates to our end goal in reloading (what should happen) vs someone who has taken the time to sit down and experiment with what provides the best results and provides his observations as it relates to shooting (what does happen).

I get that what the charts show for 30% vs 70% cold rolled brass in an oven and under a mirscroscope do and say... what that doesnt do or say is relate the to results down range at all.

A text book doesnt tell what happened on the paper unless the pages were used as the target paper. Practical vs theoretical and there is a shit load more theory that needs to be proven out as it relates to its actual effect on shooting. And if you want to quote AMP then I think they will be the first to tell you the same thing, they are a long way from complete answers.

 

[Barelstroker]

As a person who has been on both sides of these arguments for years I think the difference is that its a person who has read a study and thinks they know how that relates to our end goal in reloading (what should happen) vs someone who has taken the time to sit down and experiment with what provides the best results and provides his observations as it relates to shooting (what does happen).

I get that what the charts show for 30% vs 70% cold rolled brass in an oven and under a mirscroscope do and say... what that doesnt do or say is relate the to results down range at all.

A text book doesnt tell what happened on the paper unless the pages were used as the target paper. Practical vs theoretical and there is a shit load more theory that needs to be proven out as it relates to its actual effect on shooting. And if you want to quote AMP then I think they will be the first to tell you the same thing, they are a long way from complete answers.

If you had the slightest idea of what you're alluding to, you would have said nothing.
The way orkan & most others anneal, simply doesn't change the temper of the cases. This is easily proven.
So, if you're suggesting that orkan is accomplishing some special case neck temper which, does all kinds of wonderful shit on the target, you're wrong.
The flame changing colour; all bullshit.
The orange flame signifying elements burning out of the brass; all bullshit.
The case necks getting softer at 500F or 600F for a second or 2; all bullshit.
His annealing making any difference on target; all bullshit.
If you wish to be involved, it would be better if you'd at least educate yourself & debate with your own opinions & not just blindly agree with orkan. That clown has taken too many of you guys for a ride as it is. It's time you all started thinking for yourselves.
Regards..........Barelstroker

 

[lash]

Neck tension seems as if it makes a measurable difference but, neck tension can be set to anything the loader desires &, is not tied to the hardness of the brass.

How can you possibly say this with any conviction, knowing that science itself refutes this? Especially when you go on and on about the scientific method making you the resident expert.

People called scientists devote their lives to testing & explaining how things really, actually work &, anyone with the least intelligence would use the published information that these scientists work so hard to find &, learn by that.

You made it apparent early on that you have almost zero shooting ability and experience, yet somehow are an expert on whether annealing works or not and that you and you alone know of the one and only way to do it correctly.

Suffice it to say, that while at first I appreciated your input into this thread, you have now proven that you only care about winning this self created argument. You have single handedly moved this thread back into a pissing match shit show from something that could have been a useful read.

I left the thread because, frankly, I was muddling things up. I came back because I read the disaster you’ve made of it. You are not the annealing expert messiah that you deem yourself to be and a bit of hubris in you would go a long ways towards understanding that and accepting it.

 

[TxWelder35]

I've been following this thread for a bit and figure it would be good to join in and offer up some capabilities that can help us all understand the process better. I handle quality control at Jagemann brass where we have the capability to do the metallurgical testing that can help provide some insight into the process. A lot of the questions I've read have not been something we have really worried about from a manufacturing standpoint as our customers generally only have basic requirements for hardness and minimum tension so we have never had to delve too deeply into the metallurgy involved.

As I am a nerd and always want to learn more, I figure what better way than to design some experiments that we wouldn't necessarily consider from a bulk manufacturing standpoint. I'll answer what questions I can from current experience, or work through some ways to test some theories.

Our capabilities:
Vickers hardness testing
Induction annealing
Flame annealing
Ammonia vapor testing
Electrolytic polishing/grain structure analysis
Push/pull force testing
Pressure/Velocity testing for certain calibers (some calibers conformal, some port, EPVAT)

While I don't have the time to do every type of testing everybody would like, I will do what I can to work through some experiments. Obviously I have a much larger supply of JAG brass to work with, but do have small amounts of competitor samples for experimentation as well.

Well this has been a very underrated post in here with all the chest beating.

from what I understand about annealing what we should have an intrest in would be the pull force would be on brass annealed at different temperatures and duration during multiple firing cycles. I think that would be a good test to start with. Practical test without getting too far into the weeds

 

[Barelstroker]

How can you possibly say this with any conviction, knowing that s hence itself refutes this? Especially when you go on and on about the scientific method making you the resident expert.



You made it apparent early on that you have almost zero shooting ability and experience, yet somehow are an expert on whether annealing works or not and that you and you alone know of the one and only way to do it correctly.

Suffice it to say, that while at first I appreciated your input into this thread, you have now proven that you only care about winning this self created argument. You have single handedly moved this thread back into a pissing match shit show from something that could have been a useful read.

I left the thread because, frankly, I was muddling things up. I came back because I read the disaster you’ve made of it. You are not the annealing expert messiah that you deem yourself to be and a bit of hubris in you would go a long ways towards understanding that and accepting it.

What science refutes anything to do with neck tension?
Neck tension can be set with bushings & gauge pins & adjusted to match any seating force tension the loader desires. I do it myself.

I never claimed to have zero shooting ability. I've been shooting pest animals for over 30 years. I've shot Fclass out to 1000 yrds many times & done it well.

As for pissing matches, it's ok for some self proclaimed You tube expert to make completely & blatantly incorrect statements about subjects that have been known for at least 75 years but, I have the problem when that fact is pointed out.

Expert I'm most certainly not but, I've not come swanning in here without having the simple curtesy of educating myself with proven scientific data so that, when I do have something to say, it's actually factual &, advances the knowledge of others.
It appears that you've taken offence to the truth of the situation regarding certain individuals.
That's unfortunate.
Regards...........Barelstroker

 

[Barelstroker]

Well this has been a very underrated post in here with all the chest beating.

from what I understand about annealing what we should have an intrest in would be the pull force would be on brass annealed at different temperatures and duration during multiple firing cycles. I think that would be a good test to start with. Practical test without getting too far into the weeds

Yes, I agree however, it is a little expensive & not easy to set up &, it has been done before. From memory, the pull force was roughly similar to seating force. That is to say that, it was within a similar region of force.
What I took from the results I've seen is basically; seating force is roughly equivalent to pull force.

 

[lash]

Neck tension can be set with bushings & gauge pins & adjusted to match any seating force tension the loader desires. I do it myself.

This is not a scientifically supportable statement. If it is, show me the studies you’ve done and the data, with results on target that support it. You cannot.

It appears that you've taken offence to the truth of the situation regarding certain individuals.
That's unfortunate.

It’s handy for you to lump anyone that doesn’t agree with you into the same group, isn’t it. Wrong, but handy for you.

 

[TxWelder35]

Yes, I agree however, it is a little expensive & not easy to set up &, it has been done before. From memory, the pull force was roughly similar to seating force. That is to say that, it was within a similar region of force.
What I took from the results I've seen is basically; seating force is roughly equivalent to pull force.

If we have a manufacture willing and capable than I’d say we let them do it and have data in front of us.

 

[Barelstroker]

This is not a scientifically supportable statement. If it is, show me the studies you’ve done and the data, with results on target that support it. You cannot.


It’s handy for you to lump anyone that doesn’t agree with you into the same group, isn’t it. Wrong, but handy for you.

I'm not aware of any studies that have been done on neck tension as it applies from an annealing perspective.
I don't know why it's necessary to find a study on how to set neck tension.
I use a gauge pin to open the neck & push the neck/shoulder junction out then, I use a neck collet die to set the appropriate neck ID which sets the seating force I want. I can set the neck ID to any Lb number within the maximum tension of the neck when sized to the minimum ID I can create with the neck sizing die.
It don't matter if the brass is hard or soft, you simply have to set the appropriate neck ID to compensate.
There are plenty of bench rest & F-class shooters who don't anneal & get excellent results using this method.

I didn't realize I'd lumped anyone. You obviously have a bug up your ass & I reckon I've correctly assumed exactly what I stated. And, it's not handy, just the truth.

 

[Barelstroker]

If we have a manufacture willing and capable than I’d say we let them do it and have data in front of us.

I'm all for that. Can't see it happening though.
Although I can't quote actual Lb figures, I've pulled & reseated many boxes of new factory cartridges. Remington, Winchester & Federal &, I can tell you that, when pulling them with a Hornady bullet puller, the pull force ranges from finger effort to near busting my poor little press trying to pull them out. They're all over the shop but, if you can talk one of them into filming some tests, be my guest.

 

[TxWelder35]

I'm all for that. Can't see it happening though.
Although I can't quote actual Lb figures, I've pulled & reseated many boxes of new factory cartridges. Remington, Winchester & Federal &, I can tell you that, when pulling them with a Hornady bullet puller, the pull force ranges from finger effort to near busting my poor little press trying to pull them out. They're all over the shop but, if you can talk one of them into filming some tests, be my guest.

We get it man you know everything.

literally in my quote from @White_Shark he said they have a capability to test to do push pull testing, not a whole lot of reason for it not to happen.

 

[White_Shark]

Well this has been a very underrated post in here with all the chest beating.

from what I understand about annealing what we should have an intrest in would be the pull force would be on brass annealed at different temperatures and duration during multiple firing cycles. I think that would be a good test to start with. Practical test without getting too far into the weeds

I can do some pull force measurements at different hardness levels from un-annealed to completely over-annealed to red hot on the same lot of brass. That is easy enough. I'm out of the office until the 4th, but can start getting some results next week. We generally don't worry about the temperature of the parts in annealing as we can do rapid hardness testing to ensure that hardness is where we want it. I will have to dig around to see if we have any tempilaq left to equate hardness to temperature.

 

[TxWelder35]

I can do some pull force measurements at different hardness levels from un-annealed to completely over-annealed to red hot on the same lot of brass. That is easy enough. I'm out of the office until the 4th, but can start getting some results next week. We generally don't worry about the temperature of the parts in annealing as we can do rapid hardness testing to ensure that hardness is where we want it. I will have to dig around to see if we have any tempilaq left to equate hardness to temperature.

Any capability to do multiple firings on one piece of brass and do the tests at different annealing times?

 

[Barelstroker]

We get it man you know everything.

literally in my quote from @White_Shark he said they have a capability to test to do push pull testing, not a whole lot of reason for it not to happen.

Sorry. When you said "manufacturer" I took that as cartridge manufacturer. Ok, you meant just the cases.

 

[Barelstroker]

I can do some pull force measurements at different hardness levels from un-annealed to completely over-annealed to red hot on the same lot of brass. That is easy enough. I'm out of the office until the 4th, but can start getting some results next week. We generally don't worry about the temperature of the parts in annealing as we can do rapid hardness testing to ensure that hardness is where we want it. I will have to dig around to see if we have any tempilaq left to equate hardness to temperature.

Fine by me. I hope you plan on being impartial though.
You can go to AMP's website & see their results at about 1000F for the time they use to anneal whatever case type they tested. Their testing also lines up with hardness graphs of study reports I have.
Measuring the pull & push force will ofcourse depend on neck tension which is set by neck ID of equivalent case hardness which, will have to be set by a gauge pin of appropriate dia to nullify neck wall thickness. Even then, neck wall thickness makes a difference to the tension at the same neck ID. I know that my federal & Lapua cases seat differently to Winchester after annealing. There's nothing I've tested yet which makes different brands the same. They're close but, measurably different.
My cases I take to just before melting point as best I can. I'm guessing the cases get to between 800C & 900C for about 10 seconds.

 

[White_Shark]

Fine by me. I hope you plan on being impartial though.
You can go to AMP's website & see their results at about 1000F for the time they use to anneal whatever case type they tested. Their testing also lines up with hardness graphs of study reports I have.
Measuring the pull & push force will ofcourse depend on neck tension which is set by neck ID of equivalent case hardness which, will have to be set by a gauge pin of appropriate dia to nullify neck wall thickness. Even then, neck wall thickness makes a difference to the tension at the same neck ID. I know that my federal & Lapua cases seat differently to Winchester after annealing. There's nothing I've tested yet which makes different brands the same. They're close but, measurably different.
My cases I take to just before melting point as best I can. I'm guessing the cases get to between 800C & 900C for about 10 seconds.

Your views about my impartiality are irrelevant, I'm just going to present the data. All of my tests will be done on our brass from a lot straight off our forming press. The neck inside diameters will be as formed and measured by CMM. The only modification will be the amount of annealing to get the resultant pull force. All I'm going to do is show different pull forces at different hardness levels that result from annealing on the same lot of brass with the same projectiles.

 

[Barelstroker]

Your views about my impartiality are irrelevant, I'm just going to present the data. All of my tests will be done on our brass from a lot straight off our forming press. The neck inside diameters will be as formed and measured by CMM. The only modification will be the amount of annealing to get the resultant pull force. All I'm going to do is show different pull forces at different hardness levels that result from annealing on the same lot of brass with the same projectiles.

Sorry to have to mention impartiality but, I believe it was necessary. Not because of you personally as I don't know you from a bar of soap so, please don't take it as a personal attack.
Try & look at the situation from my perspective. I don't know you or your motivation. I could assume anything but, we'll see what you come up with.

Regards Barelstroker

 

[supercorndogs]

Oh my lord, I took barrelstroker off ignore for minute. What a mess. His pontificating is like watching monkey try to hump a football.

He needs to mention impartiality, when a manufacturer offers to do some free testing and give us free information out of the goodness of his heart.

 

[TxWelder35]

Oh my lord, I took barrelstroker off ignore for minute. What a mess. His pontificating is like watching monkey try to hump a football.

He needs to mention impartiality, when a manufacturer offers to do some free testing and give us free information out of the goodness of his heart.

i was about to post the same video

dude has taken the clown cake for the month

 

[Barelstroker]

Oh my lord, I took barrelstroker off ignore for minute. What a mess. His pontificating is like watching monkey try to hump a football.

He needs to mention impartiality, when a manufacturer offers to do some free testing and give us free information out of the goodness of his heart.

Haha, says the guy who's spoken so much about how the brass is completely ruined if gets over 750F & material burning out of the brass.
You & orkan make an excellent couple, you're both top dogs at making shit up as you go along.
Afterall, You don't need facts complicating a good bullshit story, do you!
As for impartiality, it's a major factor in any form of testing.
For all I know, White_Shark could be a relative or connected or just a friend who's taken offense. That'll be real impartial, won't it.
Anyhow, makes no difference. I have the results of a dozen commissioned studies conducted by physicists of their published results with regards to annealing &, AMP have their published results so, in effect, the die is already cast.
It's going to be embarrassing if the results are substantially different without a good reason.

 

[Joel Danielson]

Measuring the pull & push force will ofcourse depend on neck tension which is set by neck ID of equivalent case hardness which, will have to be set by a gauge pin of appropriate dia to nullify neck wall thickness. Even then, neck wall thickness makes a difference to the tension at the same neck ID.

I use an AMP for my annealing now after going from the stone age with a drill and flame to a Giraud system. Not going to go into the science of what works, just going to say that all the different methods work if you know what you are doing. I turn necks on all my competition brass (f-class and bench), and can say that neck tension has nothing to do with the thickness of my neck. Thickness effects dwell time in the flame or AMP, but I can create a given neck tension with any thickness of brass. When you say that there are "many" f-class and benchrest shooters that don't anneal, I would just say; until they figure out that they need to do it. There is a reason why the top shooters have a process for prepping brass and other components before a match. Flame on....

 

[White_Shark]

Haha, says the guy who's spoken so much about how the brass is completely ruined if gets over 750F & material burning out of the brass.
You & orkan make an excellent couple, you're both top dogs at making shit up as you go along.
Afterall, You don't need facts complicating a good bullshit story, do you!
As for impartiality, it's a major factor in any form of testing.
For all I know, White_Shark could be a relative or connected or just a friend who's taken offense. That'll be real impartial, won't it.
Anyhow, makes no difference. I have the results of a dozen commissioned studies conducted by physicists of their published results with regards to annealing &, AMP have their published results so, in effect, the die is already cast.
It's going to be embarrassing if the results are substantially different without a good reason.

I don’t understand where this is coming from. I haven’t made any claims one way or the other; I’ve only offered up our considerable testing resources to do some experimentation and provide data. People can form their own conclusions.

While I care very much about the quality of our brass, probably more than 95% of what we make goes to OEMs, our bagged line of brass for reloaders is a very small part of our business and I don’t need to convince anybody to try it as it will probably be very scarce for the near future with current OEM demands. I also can’t divulge our customer names aside from Ammo Inc (we are a subsidiary) to push anybody to buy their ammo.

My purpose here is to help people get the most out of their brass because I have access to equipment most reloaders can only dream of.

 

[Barelstroker]

I use an AMP for my annealing now after going from the stone age with a drill and flame to a Giraud system. Not going to go into the science of what works, just going to say that all the different methods work if you know what you are doing. I turn necks on all my competition brass (f-class and bench), and can say that neck tension has nothing to do with the thickness of my neck. Thickness effects dwell time in the flame or AMP, but I can create a given neck tension with any thickness of brass. When you say that there are "many" f-class and benchrest shooters that don't anneal, I would just say; until they figure out that they need to do it. There is a reason why the top shooters have a process for prepping brass and other components before a match. Flame on....

I don't see the need for flames since, you've agreed with most of what I stated.
On this very site, there are threads discussing the personal findings of what annealing does & doesn't do down range &, there are quite a few who question its validity. Having said that, I don't regard anything as gospel either way. There are so many guys, using so many different cartridges, barrels, bullets, case brands, you name it. I regard it as being absolutely possible that one guy can get measurable, repeatable results while, another sees no difference &, many claim no difference in performance though they continue to anneal to prolong case life.
As far the efficacy of flame annealing compared to AMP's method, you would have be taking the temp of the brass to a much higher temperature with the flame systems than what is currently accepted. For the actual annealing results to be similar to AMP, the brass temp has to be around 1000F or 550C which, is fair cherry glow. Furthermore, 550c is a very critical temperature because this is the temp whereby the brass begins recrystallization which, is affected exponentially in time where the hardness of the brass reduces very rapidly. We're talking from hours & minutes to seconds. So no, you can't compare the AMP to the currently accepted flame method.
The flame method can anneal to the same temps as AMP but, it's my bet nobody has because you've all been told that it ruins the brass, so why would you.

 

[Barelstroker]

I don’t understand where this is coming from. I haven’t made any claims one way or the other; I’ve only offered up our considerable testing resources to do some experimentation and provide data. People can form their own conclusions.

While I care very much about the quality of our brass, probably more than 95% of what we make goes to OEMs, our bagged line of brass for reloaders is a very small part of our business and I don’t need to convince anybody to try it as it will probably be very scarce for the near future with current OEM demands. I also can’t divulge our customer names aside from Ammo Inc (we are a subsidiary) to push anybody to buy their ammo.

My purpose here is to help people get the most out of their brass because I have access to equipment most reloaders can only dream of.

Thankyou.
It's very difficult, if not damn near impossible to convey adequately, via the written word of personal demeanor &, I'm quite certain that this situation has played it's role here as well.
For the sake of clarity, I have not &, certainly did not intend to accused you of anything nor do I think that you won't be impartial.
If you read some of the completely unwarranted attacks & gross misrepresentations, I think you'll agree that it's only prudent that I be on my guard.
All I said was; I don't know you or your intentions which, is absolutely true.
I can only give my personal assurance that I had no ill will toward you.
Kind regards............Barelstroker

 

[Joel Danielson]

There is an approach that some of us less educated people use that is based around "does it work when I do this". I have been annealing brass for over 40 years, as mentioned earlier, some was the caveman method. I got acceptable, sometimes even great results on work hardened brass using the flame methods. The Giraud system was a huge step forward in consistent neck tension. Induction annealing is another step forward in the process, but I could still compete with flame annealed brass if I needed to.
Cheers