Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths

[Barelstroker]

There is an approach that some of us less educated people use that is based around "does it work when I do this". I have been annealing brass for over 40 years, as mentioned earlier, some was the caveman method. I got acceptable, sometimes even great results on work hardened brass using the flame methods. The Giraud system was a huge step forward in consistent neck tension. Induction annealing is another step forward in the process, but I could still compete with flame annealed brass if I needed to.
Cheers

Well, if you say so &, I'm not being rude or obtuse when I say that.
I just told you about the significant difference between AMP's method & the currently accepted flame method of 500F, 600F, 750F, which one. Apparently they're all correct because someone says their results tell them so.
Then there's the question of the results & how those results are derived. If the results are group size, I don't put much if any faith in those claims. Most guys put 5 or 10 or 20 shots downrange & think it's all squared away when in reality, there is little if any statistical veracity. Downrange performance of annealing cases &, many other tests concerning bullets, powders, primers & etc, is very difficult to prove with any mathematical, statistical certainty but, because guys choose to believe that educating themselves about these issues is unimportant & unnecessary, they fail to be able to understand that.
As far as steps forward, if the temps & times are similar then, there can be little difference. Until that is, you get to how AMP anneal, then, it can be a completely different story.
Regards...........Barelstroker.

 

[918v]

 

[TxWelder35]

Well, if you say so &, I'm not being rude or obtuse when I say that.
I just told about the significant difference between AMP's method & the currently accepted flame method of 500F, 600F, 750F, which one. Apparently they're all correct because someone says their results tell them so.
Then there's the question of the results & how those results are derived. If the results are group size, I don't put much if any faith in those claims. Most guys put 5 or 10 or 20 shots downrange & think it's all squared away when in reality, there is little if any statistical veracity. Downrange performance of annealing cases &, many other tests concerning bullets, powders, primers & etc, is very difficult to prove with any mathematical, statistical certainty but, because guys choose to believe that educating themselves about these issues is unimportant & unnecessary, they fail to be able to understand that.
As far steps forward, if the temps & times are similar then, there can be little difference. Until that is, you get to how AMP anneal, then, it can be a completely different story.
Regards...........Barelstroker.

Not being rude or obtuse but you come off as a jack ass know it all that leaves no room for discussion because no matter what everyone else is wrong.

 

[Barelstroker]

Not being rude or obtuse but you come off as a jack ass know it all that leaves no room for discussion because no matter what everyone else is wrong.

Well, I wasn't trying to be rude but, that doesn't make it much easier to explain when someone is wrong, does it.
After hoping that he'd catch on after explaining that AMP anneal at a much higher temp which, makes a lot difference, he then completely ignores that &, hits me with the "I've been annealing for 40 years" .
As if that wasn't intended to shut me down.

 

[TxWelder35]

Well, I wasn't trying to be rude but, that doesn't make it much easier to explain when someone is wrong, does it.
After hoping that he'd catch on after explaining that AMP anneal at a much higher temp which, makes a lot difference, he then completely ignores that &, hits me with the "I've been annealing for 40 years" .
As if that wasn't intended to shut me down.

Or it could be that non of this shit actually matters and you can shoot small either way. Just because you are right doesn’t mean you are actually right. Here you go again once again acting like a know it all. Can’t leave any room for any other opinions or what has worked for others. Gotta have the last word and prove your brilliance.

 

[Barelstroker]

Or it could be that non of this shit actually matters and you can shoot small either way. Just because you are right doesn’t mean you are actually right. Here you go again once again acting like a know it all. Can’t leave any room for any other opinions or what has worked for others. Gotta have the last word and prove your brilliance.

Not at all. That's exactly what I've been saying!
I do think you can shoot small either way. I don't think annealing makes much if any difference.
Is that plain enough?
Maybe I should keep the sentences down to 5 or less & stop using big words.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I don’t understand where this is coming from. I haven’t made any claims one way or the other; I’ve only offered up our considerable testing resources to do some experimentation and provide data. People can form their own conclusions.

While I care very much about the quality of our brass, probably more than 95% of what we make goes to OEMs, our bagged line of brass for reloaders is a very small part of our business and I don’t need to convince anybody to try it as it will probably be very scarce for the near future with current OEM demands. I also can’t divulge our customer names aside from Ammo Inc (we are a subsidiary) to push anybody to buy their ammo.

My purpose here is to help people get the most out of their brass because I have access to equipment most reloaders can only dream of.

Just chiming in to say I appreciate the offer - I value any test data you provide. Most of us recognize you gain little from this, and it is appreciated. Especially anything that can correlate neck tension consistency, as most agree that has a factor on precision down range.

Honestly, I couldn't give two shits what happens metallurgically if it doesn't make my groups smaller. I care what happens on target, I'm not bothered by my brass lasting two or three or five less loadings.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I do think you can shoot small either way. I don't think annealing makes much if any difference.

If it doesn't make a notable difference to group size, why do you anneal? Just for brass life?

 

[Barelstroker]

If it doesn't make a notable difference to group size, why do you anneal? Just for brass life?

These are my reasons for why I think annealing to full RECRYSTALLIZATION matters.
I anneal because case sizing is much easier & it is very consistent.
Because the brass is soft, I have the option to seat with much lower neck tension straight from a FLS die.
Seating force is exceptionally consistent regardless of the desired tension.
The cases should last longer but, that's yet to be determined.
The method is simple, straight fwd, no guessing & gives consistent case hardness without exception.
I don't believe the hardness of the brass matters but, I do think neck tension matters. Neck tension can be set regardless of brass hardness.
That's the basics of what I've been trying to say & have said before.

 

[supercorndogs]

Just chiming in to say I appreciate the offer - I value any test data you provide. Most of us recognize you gain little from this, and it is appreciated. Especially anything that can correlate neck tension consistency, as most agree that has a factor on precision down range.

Honestly, I couldn't give two shits what happens metallurgically if it doesn't make my groups smaller. I care what happens on target, I'm not bothered by my brass lasting two or three or five less loadings.

This. Most of us here love manufactures that give us insights based on their huge amounts of knowledge. You offer to do testing just to offer us more data is fucking awesome, Pardon my french.

Thank you very much @White_Shark. We appreciate your offer to use resources just to give us more data. Its a pretty fucking cool you would do that for us. {I.E The members and owner of Snipershide.} Good content drives traffic, and spurs conversation between knowledgeable people we can learn from. A big part of any learning curve is just knowing what questions to ask.

 

[Barelstroker]

I grew out of this shit in my late teens. I suppose some men just look like men though.

 

[Tokay444]

An actual metallurgist.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Those videos are pretty dense but there's a lot of good info in there - particularly time/temp curves and numbers (19:10 on the first video, the rest I find kind of gee whiz, but not really helpful to my reloading process).

I'd dropped SBA, but I may pick up a flame annealer soon based on some of this. I'm torn, because I like having less loading processes to do, but I do enjoy making the best ammo I can - I'm just not sure I can shoot the difference between annealed and not when I'm using lapua brass.

 

[supercorndogs]

If you go check out his face book page it looks like in July his necks started cracking on his 3-4 times fired brass "even after annealing every time." Right now it looks like he is dealing with CHS. If I recall correctly we had thread with member having the same problems with necks cracking on his 338 Lapua brass, one thought was, he was getting it too hot when annealing.

YouTube university where the curriculum covers the spectrum from true to utter bullshit. A place where anyone can teach anything.

 

[orkan]

If you go check out his face book page it looks like in July his necks started cracking on his 3-4 times fired brass "even after annealing every time." Right now it looks like he is dealing with CHS. If I recall correctly we had thread with member having the same problems with necks cracking on his 338 Lapua brass, one thought was, he was getting it too hot when annealing.

YouTube university where the curriculum covers the spectrum from true to utter bullshit. A place where anyone can teach anything.

Very solid points! I once fired a single 6BR case 83 times, using my annealing method after each firing. The primer pocket was unable to hold a primer at firing 83.

From the comments section on the top video above:

 

[davethedog]

All I know is that I have an annealeeze and an amp annealer, one top of the line smart shit expensive tool, one blunt force instrument I use to get my necks glowing hot. I use 4064 and 175 smks with a .307 expander mandrel and my SDs are identical regardless of the method. I am not a metalurgist but I know enough about the vapor pressure of different metals to know that few of us if any are doing anything but changing the crystalline structure of the brass, not it’s composition.

 

[Barelstroker]

An actual metallurgist.

I think the vid you've displayed is Reece's 1st in this series. He has a follow up vid where he's flashing the case neck up as high as he can before melting point.
As I've said before, this annealing method may reveal some reason why it's not appropriate or, some issues which affect group size but, since starting actual load development, I'm seeing some promising things & no deal breakers so far. As far as actual annealing at high temp, FLS, neck sizing & seating are concerned, I see no issues but, it'll be a while before I can report on accuracy & velocity testing. It may transpire that annealing the cases to this level just won't produce good results but, at least I will have tried. So far, it seems to have some positive things going for it but, time will tell.

 

[elfster1234]

Just posted a good video on annealing brass with the EP 2.0 brass annealer here

 

[Oryx]

Just got finished reading this entire thread.. Entertaining. What happened to the activity after Jan 3? What ever happened to the seating that was going to take place?

 

[White_Shark]

Sorry about this, I did some quick tests and then lost track of this thread and got swamped with other things.

I ran some annealing and extraction force testing on some of our 6.5 PRC brass. I took our brass right off the press, trimmed it up myself and ran it through our annealer at different settings to get some different hardness levels and then seated Hornady 143 gr ELD-X projectiles to 2.950" OAL.

40 cases of 6.5 PRC brass with average mouth ID as measured on our CMM of .2620" with SD of .0003".

I ran the parts through our annealer for 4 different target hardnesses (measured on Vickers scale).

Group 1 was to get the brass glowing visually, which resulted in an average hardness of 84.8
Group 2 was just before glowing which resulted in average hardness of 98.4
Group 3 was our normal anneal with an average hardness of 113
Group 4 was un-annealed with average hardness of 205

Extraction force was measured as the peak force (lb/ft) required to entirely remove the projectile from the casing.

Group 1 average force: 57.1 lbf
Group 2 average force: 71.6 lbf
Group 3 average force: 105.7 lbf
Group 4 average force: 208.5 lbf

 

[TxWelder35]

Sorry about this, I did some quick tests and then lost track of this thread and got swamped with other things.

I ran some annealing and extraction force testing on some of our 6.5 PRC brass. I took our brass right off the press, trimmed it up myself and ran it through our annealer at different settings to get some different hardness levels and then seated Hornady 143 gr ELD-X projectiles to 2.950" OAL.

40 cases of 6.5 PRC brass with average mouth ID as measured on our CMM of .2620" with SD of .0003".

I ran the parts through our annealer for 4 different target hardnesses (measured on Vickers scale).

Group 1 was to get the brass glowing visually, which resulted in an average hardness of 84.8
Group 2 was just before glowing which resulted in average hardness of 98.4
Group 3 was our normal anneal with an average hardness of 113
Group 4 was un-annealed with average hardness of 205

Extraction force was measured as the peak force (lb/ft) required to entirely remove the projectile from the casing.

Group 1 average force: 57.1 lbf
Group 2 average force: 71.6 lbf
Group 3 average force: 105.7 lbf
Group 4 average force: 208.5 lbf

Wow quite a spread there.

anyway to fire them, anneal the same way, and then redo the test? Curious if they return to the same hardness level

 

[Joel Danielson]

Wow quite a spread there.

anyway to fire them, anneal the same way, and then redo the test? Curious if they return to the same hardness level

That's where my curiosity goes as well. Do things change after they have been annealed a "few" times, or does hardness and extraction #'s stay similar with multiple tests.

 

[Barelstroker]

Sorry about this, I did some quick tests and then lost track of this thread and got swamped with other things.

I ran some annealing and extraction force testing on some of our 6.5 PRC brass. I took our brass right off the press, trimmed it up myself and ran it through our annealer at different settings to get some different hardness levels and then seated Hornady 143 gr ELD-X projectiles to 2.950" OAL.

40 cases of 6.5 PRC brass with average mouth ID as measured on our CMM of .2620" with SD of .0003".

I ran the parts through our annealer for 4 different target hardness's (measured on Vickers scale).

Group 1 was to get the brass glowing visually, which resulted in an average hardness of 84.8
Group 2 was just before glowing which resulted in average hardness of 98.4
Group 3 was our normal anneal with an average hardness of 113
Group 4 was un-annealed with average hardness of 205

Extraction force was measured as the peak force (lb/ft) required to entirely remove the projectile from the casing.

Group 1 average force: 57.1 lbf
Group 2 average force: 71.6 lbf
Group 3 average force: 105.7 lbf
Group 4 average force: 208.5 lbf

Thank you for your efforts.
I have found that regardless of the specific Lbs figures, the softer the brass, the case to case seating force is significantly more consistent.
I have continued to test my 100% recrystallized cases with good results & no problems to date.
Maybe you could do some load development testing on the group 1 anneal cases to see how they perform.
Thank you again for the time & effort & allowing us to gain some insight with figures from proper testing equipment.

Kind Regards Barelstroker

 

[Oryx]

I would love to see the hardness test just after firing and then again just after processing. Is the brass really work hardening that much after loading and then firing and then even more after re-processing and then annealing again....Kind of completes a cycle.

Then test the effects on precision in batches:
Batch 1 anneal after firing
Batch 2 anneal after 2 firings
Batch 3 after 3 firings
batch 4 left alone

Any way to objectively measure the elasticity within the necks after annealing?

After that we can really come back to the same results that have been found out by the guys that have been doing it for thousand or 10's of thousands of rounds and multiple years.

I suspect that a guy that has a couple of purpose built precision rifles, invests their time/money in testing and competing at a high level are doing it to get 5 reloads instead of 4..... they are finding the sweet spot for consistency and what works for their purpose.

I'm not buying the 100% crystallization value .... not sure how that's even being measured per case... with so many variables 100% is a pretty lofty absolute ....

There were a lot of claims that a "normal" process that many have been performing for years isn't doing anything ... I think that claim has been disproven.

 

[Oryx]

I forgot to start the previous post with a Thank you to White_shark for the testing and sharing of results.

 

[Barelstroker]

I would love to see the hardness test just after firing and then again just after processing. Is the brass really work hardening that much after loading and then firing and then even more after re-processing and then annealing again....Kind of completes a cycle.

Then test the effects on precision in batches:
Batch 1 anneal after firing
Batch 2 anneal after 2 firings
Batch 3 after 3 firings
batch 4 left alone

Any way to objectively measure the elasticity within the necks after annealing?

After that we can really come back to the same results that have been found out by the guys that have been doing it for thousand or 10's of thousands of rounds and multiple years.
I think it's great to see some solid info other than from the original poster & myself. All the information I've posted on the subject is derived from my own testing & numerous 70:30 brass annealing studies.

I suspect that a guy that has a couple of purpose built precision rifles, invests their time/money in testing and competing at a high level are doing it to get 5 reloads instead of 4..... they are finding the sweet spot for consistency and what works for their purpose.

I'm not buying the 100% crystallization value .... not sure how that's even being measured per case... with so many variables 100% is a pretty lofty absolute ....

There were a lot of claims that a "normal" process that many have been performing for years isn't doing anything ... I think that claim has been disproven.

Well, the 100% recrystallization value is from results of previous scientific studies which, is exactly my point.
If everybody would do their homework on these subjects, they wouldn't need to "buy into" anything.
All the correct information is readily available, just as the original poster stated.
The only thing still up for debate is what impact the softer anneal has on velocity & group consistency.

 

[secondofangle2]

Reading these posts, one would think that average group sizes would have shrunk and many world records would have been set after this magical AMP machine (I have one) was debuted - as if the Holy Grail or the Shroud of Turin had been found. Alas, they have not, "scientific" "metallurgy" and the like notwithstanding. Maybe the matches should award bonus points if, after metallurgical analysis, your brass looks better under the microscope than that of the guy who beat you?

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Whats the difference between non annealed brass that puts 50psi of seating force on a bullet and fully annealed brass that puts 50psi of seating force on a bullet?

Is it the same difference as a ton of feathers vs a ton of bricks?

 

[TxWelder35]

Whats the difference between non annealed brass that puts 50psi of seating force on a bullet and fully annealed brass that puts 50psi of seating force on a bullet?

Is it the same difference as a ton of feathers vs a ton of bricks?

The difference is that neck tension will be different with each firing on non annealed brass as the brass gets harder each time it’s worked.

I believe what we are trying to get at, is does it matter to get to full recrystalization or does the 6 sec flame anneal bring you back to the same hardness each time to give consistent results

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

The difference is that neck tension will be different with each firing on non annealed brass as the brass gets harder each time it’s worked.

I believe what we are trying to get at, is does it matter to get to full recrystalization or does the 6 sec flame anneal bring you back to the same hardness each time to give consistent results

Im thinking fully annealed is as consistent as it it gets.

People are aiming for the perfect number which is the minimum amount of time a case is in a particular process and still reaches full anneal or a consistant % of anneal. But people actually have no idea what full anneal is or what % they are achieving.

Why not know for sure and go 100% the only way to be certain is to "over anneal" which you cant technically do.

Pardon my chicken scratch.
Instead of aiming for 6, why not just go straight to 9?

 

[918v]

It’s not about consistency. If you keep all your 1x, 2x, etc brass separated then you won’t have any consistency issues as all the brass within each lot will have the same neck harness.

It’s about how a dead soft neck releases the bullet. It does so in a way that ruins accuracy unless maybe if you jam them for every shot.

If you shoot from the mag and jump your bullets you need a hard neck to release the bullet properly.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

It’s not about consistency. If you keep all your 1x, 2x, etc brass separated then you won’t have any consistency issues as all the brass within each lot will have the same neck harness.

It’s about how a dead soft neck releases the bullet. It does so in a way that ruins accuracy unless maybe if you jam them for every shot.

If you shoot from the mag and jump your bullets you need a hard neck to release the bullet properly.

Using an arbor press and guage to measure. isnt 50psi of neck tension simply 50psi of neck tension regardless of how annealed the brass is?

Im curious to know the force it takes to release the bullet on both a dead soft and work hardened case when seating pressure was the same.

 

[918v]

I think it’s not the pull weight or seating pressure, but the way the bullet is guided to the leade. A dead soft neck just let’s go of the bullet like you would ungrip your hand and allows the bullet to wobble in the freebore which changes the poi from shot to shot. A hard neck holds itself together until the bullet is engaged by the rifling.

I can accept that in a benchrest chamber where the neck doesn’t expand very much and the freebore is just barely over bullet diameter all of this would be inconsequential. But in a field reliable chamber it is very important.

 

[Barelstroker]

I think it’s not the pull weight or seating pressure, but the way the bullet is guided to the leade. A dead soft neck just let’s go of the bullet like you would ungrip your hand and allows the bullet to wobble in the freebore which changes the poi from shot to shot. A hard neck holds itself together until the bullet is engaged by the rifling.

I can accept that in a benchrest chamber where the neck doesn’t expand very much and the freebore is just barely over bullet diameter all of this would be inconsequential. But in a field reliable chamber it is very important.

You have a very good point in deed.
These are all questions I have, regarding a softer anneal, now that we seem to have gotten over the ruining of brass & etc.
On the subject of a softer anneal, my brother shoots F class competitively & he anneals with an AMP. We've discussed the "over annealing" subject at some length & as a result, he has been trialling his annealing with an AMP setting of +6.
This +6 setting is enabled through the custom settings after testing the cases in the AMP.
He has been emailing me his scores & bullet placement on target at 600M & 900M as well as velocity SD's taken with his Lab Radar. So far, he seems to be sold on the softer anneal & when compared to years of data he has compared to, believes a softer anneal is measurably beneficial.
Now that he has some considerable data on a softer anneal, I'm hoping he will anneal the same way I do in order to show some comparative data & target results using the same Lapua Palme cases, powder, projectiles, primers, seating depth & force. If I can persuade him to test a definite 100% anneal, this should be considered as definitive data results, in my opinion.

 

[Barelstroker]

Im thinking fully annealed is as consistent as it it gets.

People are aiming for the perfect number which is the minimum amount of time a case is in a particular process and still reaches full anneal or a consistant % of anneal. But people actually have no idea what full anneal is or what % they are achieving.

Why not know for sure and go 100% the only way to be certain is to "over anneal" which you cant technically do.

Pardon my chicken scratch.
Instead of aiming for 6, why not just go straight to 9?
View attachment 7580988

Yes, your thoughts agree with mine however, although I agree with your logic, I'm not 100% prepared to conclude that 100% anneal is absolutely the way to go just yet.
My testing to date is of 9 anneal /reload cycles of Winchester 308, 243, 223 brass at ADI book max loads with 40, 55 87 110, 130, 135, 168 grain projectiles at ADI book max loads. So far, I've had not one adverse effect accept for greater than normal neck or, case length growth.
A very curious effect is that, I have not had to FLS any of the 308 cases for the last 5 reload/anneal cycles. There has been NO measurable base to datum growth whatsoever. This is quite baffling to me as I've never experienced not having to FLS more than 2 reload cycles before having to FLS before I started annealing to 100% recrystallization. I've been reloading 243 & 308 for some 20 years & never been able to neck size only, more than 2 cycles before the bolt was obviously jamming the case.
In reference to your rather informative little drawing, yes, you are right on the money with your logic. If absolute consistency is what you are chasing, 100% recrystallization is the only alternative, at least to the average guy with normal equipment.
Kind regards............Barelstroker.

 

[Barelstroker]

The difference is that neck tension will be different with each firing on non annealed brass as the brass gets harder each time it’s worked.

I believe what we are trying to get at, is does it matter to get to full recrystallization or does the 6 sec flame anneal bring you back to the same hardness each time to give consistent results

Well, a full recrystallization depends upon the temperature & time duration.
The reason I'm mentioning the 100% recrystallization is simply because, it is the only way the average guy can assure himself that he has the same amount of annealing every time he anneals. This is in fact the the major reason why I'm pushing this type of annealing.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Whats the difference between non annealed brass that puts 50psi of seating force on a bullet and fully annealed brass that puts 50psi of seating force on a bullet?

Is it the same difference as a ton of feathers vs a ton of bricks?

If the force gauge only measured one single thing, yes. But it doesn’t.

Seating force is a combination of many things. The gauge is just telling you that one or more of those things are different when you get more or less seating pressure than normal.

For example, you can have the exact same inside diameter on two cases. Lube one and not the other and you’ll see a big difference in seating pressure.

So, when you get say, a higher seating pressure on a round….it might be inside diameter difference, friction, or actual brass tension/spring back.

This is why you will never see a consistent end result with the gauge. If you cull say 10 rounds out of 100, not all 10 of those will shoot poorly. Usually only 1 or 2 will show a difference on chrono or paper. This is because whatever the reason for the pressure difference in 8 of them wasn’t a reason that actually matters and 2 of them had an issue that did matter.

 

[Barelstroker]

It’s not about consistency. If you keep all your 1x, 2x, etc brass separated then you won’t have any consistency issues as all the brass within each lot will have the same neck harness.

It’s about how a dead soft neck releases the bullet. It does so in a way that ruins accuracy unless maybe if you jam them for every shot.

If you shoot from the mag and jump your bullets you need a hard neck to release the bullet properly.

As I stated on your last post, you bring up an excellent question about the bullet release & etc.
Although the neck is softer, I do wonder if being 70 or 80 hardness is effectively any different to 100 or 110 hardness when initial primer pressure is anywhere from 180 psi to 580 psi. There has been several studies conducted by John J Ritter at Arlington on "PRIMER OUTPUT & INITIAL PROJECTILE MOTION of 5.56 & 7.62 mm ammunition.
On page 15 of the paper, a graph...Fig 15 (as listed) depicts axial projectile displacement in inches. The study was conducted on standard service ammunition & so, new factory, army issue cartridges.
There are many questions to be answered which, will ultimately only be answered through testing & analysis.

 

[Cole440]

After reading the entire thread, all I have to say is.

Wow.

I'm more confused then when I got here. Guess I'll just keep on with my drill and propane torch.

 

[Barelstroker]

After reading the entire thread, all I have to say is.

Wow.

I'm more confused then when I got here. Guess I'll just keep on with my drill and propane torch.

Nothing wrong with that.
I was confused as well so I began the journey to find out the facts about brass annealing, what is it, what temperatures & times, how does it affect the brass & etc.
What I found out was, accept for AMP & one other recent video, ALL of the annealing information is incorrect. It's that simple. None of the vids you can find on YouTube have any basis in fact.
If all you want to do is stop the case necks from splitting, keep on with what you're doing as long as you're getting a slight red glow, the brass will anneal enough to prevent splitting.
If you want the case to size & seat easier & more precisely, all you have to do is put more heat into the neck/shoulder. Bring the colour up to a very bright red/pink for 2 to 4 seconds & you'll achieve 100% recrystallization & all your cases will be the same. Simple as that.
To date, I've annealed over 1500 243 & 308 cases like this with not one adverse reaction.
Nothing burns out of the brass. The brass is not too soft. It doesn't damage the brass in any way.

There you have it in a nut shell.

 

[The D]

Nothing wrong with that.
I was confused as well so I began the journey to find out the facts about brass annealing, what is it, what temperatures & times, how does it affect the brass & etc.
What I found out was, accept for AMP & one other recent video, ALL of the annealing information is incorrect. It's that simple. None of the vids you can find on YouTube have any basis in fact.
If all you want to do is stop the case necks from splitting, keep on with what you're doing as long as you're getting a slight red glow, the brass will anneal enough to prevent splitting.
If you want the case to size & seat easier & more precisely, all you have to do is put more heat into the neck/shoulder. Bring the colour up to a very bright red/pink for 2 to 4 seconds & you'll achieve 100% recrystallization & all your cases will be the same. Simple as that.
To date, I've annealed over 1500 243 & 308 cases like this with not one adverse reaction.
Nothing burns out of the brass. The brass is not too soft. It doesn't damage the brass in any way.

There you have it in a nut shell.

Will doing this have any negative effects far enough down the case towards the case head/primer pocket to make a difference?

-and-

After doing the above procedure, dropping a hot case in water won’t have any detrimental effects either? It will just be cool to the touch sooner?

I think I know the answer but I probably missed something in this thread

 

[Barelstroker]

Will doing this have any negative effects far enough down the case towards the case head/primer pocket to make a difference?

-and-

After doing the above procedure, dropping a hot case in water won’t have any detrimental effects either? It will just be cool to the touch sooner?

I think I know the answer but I probably missed something in this thread

No negative effects towards the case head with 308 size cases. I've tested this in a drill while measuring the case head temp with a fast reacting PT100 probe. Testing 10 cases after heating the neck/shoulder to just under melting point for a full timed 10 seconds, the case head did not exceed 280 C. Heating to just below melting point for 4 to 5 seconds, the case head did not exceed 140 C.
Previous to this testing, I would anneal with the spent primer in the case &, the case head in about 1cm of water.
I have not yet tested 223 REM sized case head temps.
Dropping the case in water has no detrimental effect at all. After annealing, I simply dip the case in water without allowing the water to enter the interior of the case to facilitate the direct continuation of loading.
With a 308 sized case, you will not have to water cool if you flash the neck/shoulder to high temp for a few seconds only. The cases begin to cool very quickly when the flame is removed.
At 280 C, brass may begin to relieve crystal boundary tension but will not begin recrystallization or reduce in hardness.
The information concerning the effects of temperature is taken from professionally conducted studies by qualified scientists specializing in metallurgy.

 

[The D]

No negative effects towards the case head with 308 size cases. I've tested this in a drill while measuring the case head temp with a fast reacting PT100 probe. Testing 10 cases after heating the neck/shoulder to just under melting point for a full timed 10 seconds, the case head did not exceed 280 C. Heating to just below melting point for 4 to 5 seconds, the case head did not exceed 140 C.
Previous to this testing, I would anneal with the spent primer in the case &, the case head in about 1cm of water.
I have not yet tested 223 REM sized case head temps.
Dropping the case in water has no detrimental effect at all. After annealing, I simply dip the case in water without allowing the water to enter the interior of the case to facilitate the direct continuation of loading.
With a 308 sized case, you will not have to water cool if you flash the neck/shoulder to high temp for a few seconds only. The cases begin to cool very quickly when the flame is removed.
At 280 C, brass may begin to relieve crystal boundary tension but will not begin recrystallization or reduce in hardness.
The information concerning the effects of temperature is taken from professionally conducted studies by qualified scientists specializing in metallurgy.

Right on, thanks. I guess I’ll save some $$ elsewhere and keep using a torch and drill

 

[Steel head]

Right on, thanks. I guess I’ll save some $$ elsewhere and keep using a torch and drill

I’m still using a torch and drill

The deep socket also acts to shield the case and as a heat sink.

Since I’ve gotten comfortable annealing I’ve had no issues getting decent ES and had excellent case life.

Years ago orkan did an annealing video
His way of gauging when the case is annealed enough has been GTG for me from anything from 223 to 338 edge.

 

[Tokay444]

I feel like this is something that needs to be said.
You can’t under or over anneal brass. Annealed is one condition. Your brass is either annealed, or it’s something else.

 

[918v]

I feel like this is something that needs to be said.
You can’t under or over anneal brass. Annealed is one condition. Your brass is either annealed, or it’s something else.

You sound like like the guy who claims there is no such thing as neck tension and no device that uses tensions as a unit of measure.

Annealing, in our realm, is the application of heat to brass. It is a commonly accepted use of the word. When people say you over annealed a case, everyone knows what that means.

 

[Tokay444]

You sound like like the guy who claims there is no such thing as neck tension and no device that uses tensions as a unit of measure.

Annealing, in our realm, is the application of heat to brass. It is a commonly accepted use of the word. When people say you over annealed a case, everyone knows what that means.

You sound like someone who doesn't know what annealing is. To, "over anneal" is to melt.
I control neck tension to the half though with 21st Century mandrels, after I anneal and full length size.

 

[Barelstroker]

I’m still using a torch and drill

The deep socket also acts to shield the case and as a heat sink.

Since I’ve gotten comfortable annealing I’ve had no issues getting decent ES and had excellent case life.

Years ago orkan did an annealing video
His way of gauging when the case is annealed enough has been GTG for me from anything from 223 to 338 edge.

I really don't think there's a wrong way to anneal from the perspective of damaging the brass but, there certainly are different results which will be obtained through higher temps.
A lot of guys use the AMP annealer for high volume & for that, the AMP really can't be beat. That machine is designed for high volumes right out of the box &, you really do get what you pay for.

 

[918v]

You sound like someone who doesn't know what annealing is. To, "over anneal" is to melt.
I control neck tension to the half though with 21st Century mandrels, after I anneal and full length size.

I don’t give a fuck how you control neck tension. Stop redefining reloading words.

 

[Tokay444]

I’m not redefining anything. I’m clarifying that there is only one state of anneal, in cartridge brass. It can neither be over nor under annealed. It can be annealed, or it can be something other than annealed. There is no varying degrees of annealed.