Annealing Machine interest and ideas

[jonaddis84]

Hello all. I am a senior Mechanical Engineering student. I have a senior design project to do, and I plan on trying to design/build an Annealing machine similar to the Ken Light and the Ballistic Edge model 400.

I am mainly doing this because I have wanted one for awhile, but didnt want to pay the $4-500 for one. But if it works out like Im hoping, there is a chance I would try to market the idea.

What Im wondering from you guys is basically what price it would have to be to really make it more feasable to purchase? I feel like the $4-500 price tag really leaves a lot of people out of this market, and if one could be had for $2-300 that many more people would buy them.

Also, if anyone has one of these models, and has any new ideas to add or anything that doesnt quite work like you think it should, let me know.

I like the design of the Ballistic Edge over the Ken light, in that you only need one plate to do any caliber, and it looks very simplistic, and its quick.

Anyway, any comments and ideas are welcome, looking forward to what you have to say. Thanks.

 

[guapo]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

The lower price would probably put me in the market for one.

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Check out this design posted on Accurate shooter. There were several ideas exchanged in the thread before the usual pissing match started. It might give you a couple of ideas for your own build. If you get one made for around $200 that matches the quality of the BE design, I'm interested.

 

[head2h2o]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Make it capable of handling cartridges from the 223 family all the way up to the 338 Lapua with the same unit. Maybe change the rotatory plate to accomodate each bolt face group. I think getting your price in around the $200-300 mark would help as well. I'd be interested.

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Post photos and video of it when you get it finished. I am looking for something to do this with.

 

[vman]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Im up for one if its in the vacinity of $200-300.

Another thing, is that many of the units on the market command huge shipping costs when going international because they are either large or pre assembled.

Heres what I think would make attractive features

- Motor Runs of DC power supply packs which can either be supplied to local residents, or left out of the price and the user purchases one localy with the appropriate DC power pack.
- Lightweight construction that does not have any extra unnecessary material thickness
- Capability to be constructed by the end user and therefore reduced packing size (possibility to reduce freight costs)
- A top plate that is capable of utilising cases from small thru to large
- Top plate is capable of index/spinning cases
- Simple speed adjustment
- Two torch operation
- Case drop area for annealed cases

Il add more if i can think of them

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Well Ill try to keep the measurements down to where they could be shipped in a USPS Large flatrate box, I think that would keep the freight cost down to $15ish for international right?

The cases will be constantly spinning so that they are evenly annealed. It will not be a stop and go system like some that are out there, I think that adds complexity and slows down the operation.

I cant guarantee it will be able to run on DC power, but having it 12V would make it quite versatile, that way you could run it off a battery or use a transformer from an AC outlet as well.

I think I have an idea to make it able to take anything from 223 up to 338LM with the same top plate, I dont want to go into too much detail here, I have to make sure its cost effective enough first.

I do think the others out there use unnecessarily thick aluminum, which is where a lot of the cost comes from. Im not sure that when the case is only touching the plate in one small spot that it is doing any kind of heatsinking, someone with one of these would have to tell me that the top plate gets hot enough that it is actually absorbing heat.

Ill keep everyone updated as the project progresses. Also, no guarantees that Ill be able to keep the cost below $300, there may well be a reason that all of them run in the $4-500 range, I havent delved into this deep enough yet to know for sure.

 

[token5gtd]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I cant guarantee it will be able to run on DC power, but having it 12V would make it quite versatile, that way you could run it off a battery or use a transformer from an AC outlet as well.

</div></div>

I'm definitely interested in your idea and would probably invest a few hundred, however I don't see the need for a battery operated annealer. I'm not planning on taking it to the range with me.

 

[vman]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Ill try to keep the measurements down to where they could be shipped in a USPS Large flatrate box, I think that would keep the freight cost down to $15ish for international right?

</div></div>

I have been quoted on average $150 USD for shipping from the United States to Australia.

Im always keen to have some input into things such as this so keep me posted on what you would like to do and il be happy to provide you with my thoughts and opinions.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

You'd be amazed at how many folks in the lower 48 think shipping something to Alaska cost the same as shipping to Australia!!

I'd definitely be interested in your annealing machine if the costs were possible to be kept in that 200-300 dollar range.

keep us posted!

 

[pjparker]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

jon

I have thrown together an annealing machine that's manually operated, but with a 24Vdc (because thats what I had) power supply. Single torch, case spinner gear motor, adjustable timing relay (currently turns on a light to tell you time's up, rotate another case into the flame) and auto drop into a fan cooled box.

What has really stumped me is how to add a case feeder. If you could come up with a design that would eliminate the task of having to hand-feed the beast...... Adapt a Dillon case feeder or a design a less expensive gravity fed hopper that could be filled up and walked away from for awhile. That is what I would pay cash for.

Paul

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Would this be induction or would it use a torch?

 

[TresMon]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas


I'm interested for that price range....

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Its good to see there is so much interest, hopefully I can find a way to make this price range possible.

It will most likely be torch heated, but havent gotten into it yet so well see.

I definitely dont see a way to incorporate a case feeder, at least not for this price range. Possibly an addon though.

 

[vman]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I would not feed safe knowing theres the slightest chance i might anneal a case head and not find out about it until the rifle explodes in my face...

But thats just me

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I am interested also and willing to beta test it for you

 

[Firemarshall27]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I know Tom and James (Rodent) both have one you might check with them to see what they like dislike or would or wouldn't change. Good luck! I want one when there done!

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

How many "classes" of cases would I need to make this adaptable to? Looking at a way to use a single plate for anything under the BMG.

I come up with 3.

223 class ~.375" diameter?

308 class ~0.5" diameter, could go slightly larger if 300WM or WSM are slightly larger

338lm class ~.625" diameter, not sure on 408 dimensions, 50bmg would be custom order

 

[USMC0331]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I'm in the process of building one myself. When I can sit down at a real computer I'll jump in on this. I have a few ideas and questio
ns of my own.

 

[rymart]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello all. I am a senior Mechanical Engineering student. I have a senior design project to do, and I plan on trying to design/build an Annealing machine similar to the Ken Light and the Ballistic Edge model 400.

I am mainly doing this because I have wanted one for awhile, but didnt want to pay the $4-500 for one. But if it works out like Im hoping, there is a chance I would try to market the idea.

What Im wondering from you guys is basically what price it would have to be to really make it more feasable to purchase? I feel like the $4-500 price tag really leaves a lot of people out of this market, and if one could be had for $2-300 that many more people would buy them.
</div></div>

I'd go for the $200 - $250 range if it handled 223 through 338LM brass.

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

As long as it will do .223 .308 and belted magnums I'd be interested.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

You will want it to be more of the 350 design. That will give a VERY wide range of case sizes, and only the need of added torches for larger cases up to and including .50BMG.

You need to include this as the .50 group of shooters like myself are already into higher case prep mode.

I have an exact copy of the upper plate that was waterjet cut a few years ago as part of a group buy on FCSA. I have the motor and speed controller but just have not really put it together yet. May just want to buy something completed already.

 

[xr650rRider]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I built 2 using blades supplied by jmorris from this post. They both worked well. Ended up with about $200 in each. Used a 12 volt DC gearmotor from Surplus Center along with PWM DC speed control. I didn't add the casefeeder option. You would have to be doing commercial reloading to really need it.

Annealer with case feeder

 

[johndoe]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check out this design posted on Accurate shooter. There were several ideas exchanged in the thread before the usual pissing match started. It might give you a couple of ideas for your own build. If you get one made for around $200 that matches the quality of the BE design, I'm interested. </div></div>

that's a really nice looking annealer!

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: head2h2o</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Make it capable of handling cartridges from the 223 family all the way up to the 338 Lapua with the same unit. Maybe change the rotatory plate to accomodate each bolt face group. I think getting your price in around the $200-300 mark would help as well. I'd be interested. </div></div>
These are two good suggestions. The most difficult part of the annealing process with the Light machine is setting the heat sources to the right level. If you can develop a method to help determine or set the temperature of the heated cases, you can market it to people with the Ken Light machine as well. I know that Harbor Freight sells a handheld device to measure surface temperatures (guess it measures energy in a specific band and give you the temperature of the equivalent blackbody), I wonder if and how this might be used to determine case temperature during the firing process?

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I am working on a way to make the speed setting a closed loop system using a temp sensor.

I own one of the infrared thermometers from HF, this wont work as they will not work on any reflective surface. I heated a piece of brass to at least 600 degrees, put the thermometer on it and it read room temperature.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am working on a way to make the speed setting a closed loop system using a temp sensor.

I own one of the infrared thermometers from HF, this wont work as they will not work on any reflective surface. I heated a piece of brass to at least 600 degrees, put the thermometer on it and it read room temperature. </div></div>
I'm guessing cases are too small compared to its field of view, so it sees a lot of room temperature objects as well.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I think it has more to do with being calibrated for what it is sensing the temperature on. The high end IR sensors used in automation have an adjustment knob for emmissivity that you adjust based on a table of material types, shiny brass just happens to be one of the materials...too bad the sensor itself runs about $350

 

[machinisttx]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pjparker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">jon

I have thrown together an annealing machine that's manually operated, but with a 24Vdc (because thats what I had) power supply. Single torch, case spinner gear motor, adjustable timing relay (currently turns on a light to tell you time's up, rotate another case into the flame) and auto drop into a fan cooled box.

What has really stumped me is how to add a case feeder. If you could come up with a design that would eliminate the task of having to hand-feed the beast...... Adapt a Dillon case feeder or a design a less expensive gravity fed hopper that could be filled up and walked away from for awhile. That is what I would pay cash for.

Paul </div></div>

Why wouldn't a microswitch similar to the one at the top of the Dillon case feeder work? Wire it up with solenoid to block the drop tube from the feeder unless an empty station is below the tube. You'd probably have to add in some type of delay timer since there is empty space between cases in the wheel.

I don't really know much about electronics, but that seems like it might work.

 

[Rotortuner]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I have been thinking about buying this one:
http://bench-source.com/id81.html

I like how it rotates the case i think that is important. so here:

1. 200-300 bux
2. fit in a flat rate box
3. accept a dillon case feeder (user could use his own or buy one to upgrade later)
4. rotate case in flame
5. some type of easy to use micro control or processor to adjust the time the brass is in the flame.
6. accept anything from 223 to 338 out of the box.
7. accept some type of adapter for 408, 416, BMG cases.
8. 110 VAC
9. if it has more than one torch, use the small heads and hose that Y into a single cylinder, so the torches are always balanced.

Do all this and I think you couldn't keep up with demand.

I think the ability to accept a case feeder would really make the difference over the other machines. Our time is worth money and if i can set something up and let it grind through 500 cases while im concentrating on something else is worth it IMO.

CJG

 

[Shortdraw]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Frogman77</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'd be amazed at how many folks in the lower 48 think shipping something to Alaska cost the same as shipping to Australia!!

</div></div>
Pisses me off to no end. USPS is the same damn price to here. I would be interested in an annealing machine, but I'd like to see it closer to $250. Over $300, and I'd hesitate.

 

[IanB]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Make a Bench source annealing machine, but cheaper and lighter and you will have found the holy grail.

I have the Ken Light and while it is very good there are a few flaws. The flame adjustment for height is crude and a pain to use and while there are places for 20 cases on the wheel at any one time the case that has just been annealed is still in the way of the flame of the next case to be annealed, when I use mine I leave 3 or 4 spaces between each case.If someone knows of a better way please enlighten me.

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Oh and make it take Coleman propane bottles not the benzomatic stuff. They cost too much. It's the same fitting but the coleman ones are shorter and fatter.

 

[mram10]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Better yet, make it compatible with 5 gal propane tanks.

 

[CanPopper]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Annealing machines are over rated.

What I did was purchase one of the aluminum loading blocks from one of our hide sellers, put the bottom of it in cold water, then annealed my brass in it with a propane torch.

It does a wonderful job with annealed necks better than most of the factory annealled cases.

The aluminum loading block in cold water acts as a heat sink so the case head is very well protected. By putting it in cold water, the block trasmit cold up the body of the brass case so the annealling only occurs in the area where the torch flame touches.

All this for a mere $25 per aluminum block.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Im still here guys, and listening, keep the ideas coming. I had thought of being able to plumb into both a 1 lb coleman, or have an adapter to go into a 20lb tank, but I think they have very different pressures, so that may not be feasable.

Guy using loading block...how are you consistently annealing 360* around the neck?

 

[Kirker912]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

while we are on the subject of annealing 360*. Do you think it is critical to turn the brass while it is in the flame or do you think that two torch heads distribute heat well enough that it doesn't need to turn?

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Anyone know of a propane tank splitter hose or attachment so that I can use a big tank, and then split both of my burner tips off of it at the same time; giving me the same pressures through both hoses without having to jerk around with volumes of flow. from each nozzle more than once.

JeffVN

 

[kombayotch]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Here you go:
http://www.bbqguys.com/item_name_Bayou-Classic-Propane-Y-Splitter_item_2708358.html

You can get the hoses at Home Depot.

Benzomatic JT539 torches have regulators and the swirl flame heats more uniformly than a pencil torch.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kirker912</div><div class="ubbcode-body">while we are on the subject of annealing 360*. Do you think it is critical to turn the brass while it is in the flame or do you think that two torch heads distribute heat well enough that it doesn't need to turn? </div></div>

Aside from extending the life of the brass, the other purpose of annealing is for consistent neck tension from sizing. If half the neck is properly annealed, and the other half is un-annealed (very easy to do manually) you will have worse neck tension than when you started.

 

[pawprint]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I'd like to see a "long" drop tube that allows the hot brass to go into a bucket of water, the tubes extends 6 inches or so into the water, thus-no splash. Make sure the brass is rotating while being heated, this has always been a problem with many methods-one side gets more than the side 180 out from the torch. The speed of rotation(at the point of heat) is something I've wondered about, I believe there would be an optimum speed, but over the years, I've never seen anyone attempt to find that speed, my guess is after a certain rpm no more gain, but under that "magic" rpm better results will be found. When you make one, I too, will be interested.

 

[WARDOG]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

jonaddis84-
It sounds like you have a good idea going. Especially to keep the costs down to sell more units.
I have a couple of comments, but not necessarily on the design of the machine.
Have you taken a Marketing or Patent course yet?
If you haven't I would highly recommend them.
I have designed, marketed, and sold a few small parts that are improvements on existing parts for firearms and other daily use items. Many on the forum see a few of my parts on a weekly basis, however I <span style="font-style: italic">will not</span> disclose what they are.
You will quickly find out why everything costs what they do.
Recovering R&D costs, Beta testing units before mass producing and having to recall defective units, contracts with vendors, shipping costs to get the materials, packaging costs and labor to send out a great product, advertising . Marketing, legal fees for trademark, liability coverage, patent research to avoid getting sued for patent violations, UL (Underwriter Laboratory testing: Certification so your unit does not burn down somebodys reloading room or house), Book-keeping, manufacturing costs, storage of completed units, process to accept payments, collection of sales tax, payment of sales tax, establishing a business resale license so you are not paying tax on components thatyou intent to resale, (Keeps costs to the end user down) etc. You can realy learn a lot about the business management side from a few good books at the library.
I have realized with my last item that it is easier, and ultimately more profitable, and less stressful to contract with a distributor, ship them the product and let them do the marketing, shipping, accept payment etc.
A perfect example of what I am talking about is springwater.
It's a free, natural resource that comes straight out of the ground. So why does the movie theater charge you $2.00 a bottle? It' the cost of all of the permits, taxes, shipping, testing, liability, packaging etc.
Good luck with your idea, I don't mean to discourage you. I really like to see inventive entrepanuers succeed.
One last thought, It is possible to make a good amount of money just by selling an incomplete kit, or plans on how to make your item and making available the prime components.
<span style="font-weight: bold">WARDOG</span> - aka: <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Yankee Metallic</span></span>

 

[CanPopper]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I'm the aluminum loading block guy.

What I do is I anneal one side of each piece of brass while rocking the loading block back and forth with my hand. Meanwhile I do the 7 one thousand count for each piece.

Then after I'm done with one side, I just turn the block 180 degrees and I again rock it back and forth and anneal the other side. This time I do a 5 one thousand count.

Brass is a really good heat conductor so the possibily of unevenly annealed brass is really more hypothetical than actual. Plus the flame tends to wrap around the neck anyways so doing one side then the other will ensure very good overlap.

All the other methods I've read is really unnecessary make work and often expensive make work at that. The Hornaday method with the temperature indicator is just plain expensive and a hassle. Annealing in water is similar to what I do since both effectively acts as heatsinks but my method doesn't get water into the brass to rust the inside and the primer pockets.

I used to think annealling brass was a big deal. Even went as far as buying furnace thermometers to measure the temperature of different flame settings from different sources.

In reality, it is the simplest case prep step.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Does anyone have any clue where I could locate the propane torch heads this guy used on his machine?

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[vman]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

jonaddis84 they sell them at hardware stores as replacement heads for standard propane torch heads.

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Are you sure? Ive never seen heads that can be plumbed into flexible hose like in that video.

 

[EWP]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Any torch can be used but the pencil type that come with most of the 1# propane bottles are the best(Bernz-O-Matic 2317-T), as far as the hoses goes you can pick them up in the camping section at Wal-mart alone with the splitter for use with the 20# bottle.

The torches have a very small pilot hole that regulates the gas pressure so it doesn't matter how big of a tank you use the torch will work the same.

With two torches facing directly at one another the flames cancel out the heat from one another that normally extends past the case in the direction of the flame and allow you to put a case in every hole of the index plate unlike the single torch setups.

I would be happy to make a short video for you guys if their is anything in particular you would like to see the annealer doing to help you better understand how it works to get some design ideals.

 

[SPAK]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

I've used the pencil flame tips and I now use the swirl flame tips. I seem to get a more even annealing in shorter time with the swirl flame. Just my .02

 

[jonaddis84]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Well, I have a greater appreciation for why these machines cost so much now. Ive done this whole project start to finish on my own, from design to manufacture. Have been using our CNC mill at school and learning as I go on it.

This is the first working prototype, there are a few things that I need to adjust, then Ill be getting quotes on having the plates made to see how much Im going to have to sell it for to make any money.

It does have the advantage over any other constant motion annealer that it will accept any case from 223 to 338LM and maybe a few others in either direction. I originally wanted to accept the 50bmg but I had to make a sacrifice somewhere, so I figured if you are shooting the 50 youll have to buy a separate plate...sorry.

I need to adjust the location of the legs slightly to allow the switch panel to move clockwise a little bit so it fits in the box better, I also want to move the drop out location anti-clockwise a little bit so they drop out almost right after being heated (I also had a oversight in that the drop out slot is directly over the motor gearbox, it doesnt interfere at all, but I dont like it).

The plates are 5/8" 6061, I may try to go thinner to save some money there.

The legs wont actually be brass, I was just in a hurry to make some legs and, dont ask me how, but I had brass laying around and no aluminum barstock.

The cases ARE rotating in their holes incase you cannot tell in the video.

For all the international guys, and local for that matter, I made sure it fit in a large flat rate, I just hope it weighs less than 20lbs all said and done for international.

What do you think?

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[vman]

Re: Annealing Machine interest and ideas

Ohhhhhhhhhh very nice. Il check out the bid when I get home but it looks sweet from what I can see