Another LPVO thread

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houndog

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May 6, 2005
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#1
Yes, another LPVO thread. It's just that I'm kind of overwhelmed with the possible choices.

Intended use - recently purchased a Noveske Afghan upper with a 14.5" stainless upper. I already have a couple of SBR's with red dots and a 18" CLE upper with a 24x scope that's dedicated to long range shooting. This rifle would be my do it all option. So offhand shooting at 15-50 yards, but also would take it out to 4-500 yards. I have access to a 600 yard range, and will probably end up doing about 75% of my shooting with this rifle at 200+ yards and beyond.

I have an absolute max budget of $1,500 and if I can keep it under $1,000 that would be great. Obviously, the scope needs to be reasonably rugged, and have really solid glass. Weight is a concern, so if I can keep it light that would be a plus. And it has to have a reticle that works for both in close shooting and long distance shooting. Finally, I can live with 1-6x but 1-8x would be better. Don't really want to go up to 1-10x, since I don't think I really need it and understand those scopes can be problematic.

The problem is that there are a ton of choices that look like they would work. Primary Arms has a 1-8x for $1,500 that is really interesting and is probably my current top choice. It's relatively light and has a great reticle. Of course the Vortex Razor 1-6x is a solid option. Great glass, great warranty but getting another 2x would be nice. I have a Trijicon Credo in higher magnification, that I like, so their 1-8x is interesting to me. Steiner has a 1-6x option that looks it would work. Eotech has something in my price range, and I'm a big fan of their holographic sight, but don't know anything about their other scopes. And finally, there's the Nightforce NXS, but I think even on sale that's going to end up over my max budget and the ATACR is way over my budget.

So I guess I'm just interested in other shooters' thoughts and experiences with the above scopes, or something I maybe have left out.
 
#3
IMHO.

Primary Arms Compact PLxC 1-8X24 SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Nova Fiber Wire Reticle

This one above is the best of the bunch: Useful at 1x like a Red Dot and actually useful at 8x for LR stuff. Yes it's SPF, but it's still better than the all other PA PLxC 1-8x scopes with their somewhat weird reticles. Very light weight.

Vortex Razor is a good solid second choice, abet only a 1-6x. A middleweight in oz.

The Credo is the best of the three at LR shooting (because of FFP and a good reticle) but is dead last of the three as a 1x CQB scope (also because of FFP and a so, so illuminated reticle). Not exactly a lightweight scope.
 
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#4
NX8 with the DMX reticle would be top dog if weight is a concern. I’ve seen plenty of them for resale getting below $1,300 with no mount.
 
#5
01911 said:
NX8 with the DMX reticle would be top dog if weight is a concern. I’ve seen plenty of them for resale getting below $1,300 with no mount.
Click to expand...
Nightforce NX8 1-8x24mm F1 weighs 17.6 oz.

Primary Arms Compact PLxC 1-8X24 SFP 16.8 oz

So you were saying about top dogs and weight???
 
#7
BobinNC said:
IMHO.

Primary Arms Compact PLxC 1-8X24 SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Nova Fiber Wire Reticle

This one above is the best of the bunch: Useful at 1x like a Red Dot and actually useful at 8x for LR stuff. Yes it's SPF, but it's still better than the all other PA PLxC 1-8x scopes with their somewhat weird reticles. Very light weight.

Vortex Razor is a good solid second choice, abet only a 1-6x. A middleweight in oz.

The Credo is the best of the three at LR shooting (because of FFP and a good reticle) but is dead last of the three as a 1x CQB scope (also because of FFP and a so, so illuminated reticle). Not exactly a lightweight scope.
Click to expand...
damn-son-damn.gif


That Primary Arms SFP unit checks all the boxes! Not a goat fuck complicated reticle either.

FFP LPVOs don't make sense to me. You run 1X, or you blast to 8X with the throw lever. On top of that, no LPVO is worth a shit without a visible reticle/dot at 1X.
 
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#8
FredHammer said:
View attachment 8470644

That Primary Arms SFP unit checks all the boxes! Not a goat fuck complicated reticle either.

FFP LPVOs don't make sense to me. You run 1X, or you blast to 8X with the throw lever. On top of that, no LPVO is worth a shit without a visible reticle/dot at 1X.
Click to expand...
Only have to go 2:20 into the vid to understand that it’s not daylight bright
.

.
No need to proceed .
You go FFP on an LPVO because the holds remain constant and when you have time to magnify them you have time to magnify. If a hog is charging you it will be great to have a 1X that is Aimpoint bright. If you’re clearing rooms then you’re not bringing an LPVO regardless.
👍
 
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#9
01911 said:
Only have to go 2:20 into the vid to understand that it’s not daylight bright
.

.
No need to proceed .
You go FFP on an LPVO because the holds remain constant and when you have time to magnify them you have time to magnify. If a hog is charging you it will be great to have a 1X that is Aimpoint bright. If you’re clearing rooms then you’re not bringing an LPVO regardless.
👍
Click to expand...

That's a different scope 01911:

Primary Arms Compact PLxC 1-8X24 FFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Griffin MIL M8 Reticle
SKU: PA-PLXC-1-8X24F-GRIF-MIL
MPN: 610149

This one above is FFP and not quite daylight bright and a useless LR reticle (IMHO) and is the one tested in the video.

Primary Arms Compact PLxC 1-8X24 SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS Nova Fiber Wire Reticle
SKU: PA-PLXC-1-8X24S-NOVA
MPN: 610202

This one just above is SFP and has a daylight bright reticle. The reticle is designed like the Vortex Razor 1-6.

And the NX8 is over his budget.
 
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#10
01911 said:
Only have to go 2:20 into the vid to understand that it’s not daylight bright
.

.
No need to proceed .
You go FFP on an LPVO because the holds remain constant and when you have time to magnify them you have time to magnify. If a hog is charging you it will be great to have a 1X that is Aimpoint bright. If you’re clearing rooms then you’re not bringing an LPVO regardless.
👍
Click to expand...

Two different scopes being compared here. Anyhoo, as far as daylight bright, the great thing about SFP is you don't have to rely on electronics to have a usable sight.
 
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#12
Love them or hate them one thing about the PA reticles in their LPVO line is that the illumination doesn't really matter.
At 1x with zero illumination you can see the primary horseshoe ring from bright noon daylight until dusk.

Take your Vortex Razor III and if the battery goes out or the electronics go kaput or you don't have time to turn it on, at 1x the reticle is pretty much useless if you are in a hurry.

Also remember that what you see in a video is not exactly what you are going to see in real life with your eyes.
Your eye has a much wider dynamic range for light and colour than the videos you'll see on YouTube.

Except in edge use cases, you'll probably find that at max settings the FFP PLx line from PA has all the illumination you can use for most all but the extreme edge use cases.

When you have to rely on the illumination to use things at 1x then max brightness becomes super important.
 
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#13
Primary arms optics are dogshit. Shitty larpers recommend that bullshit with their even worse reticles.

NX8 with Tree reticle or the 1-10 Eotech would be my top choices under 1.5K.

Both are very comparable on 1x to a red dot with the added magnification as an option for PID and longer engagements.
 
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#14
W54/XM-388 said:
Love them or hate them one thing about the PA reticles in their LPVO line is that the illumination doesn't really matter.
At 1x with zero illumination you can see the primary horseshoe ring from bright noon daylight until dusk.

Take your Vortex Razor III and if the battery goes out or the electronics go kaput or you don't have time to turn it on, at 1x the reticle is pretty much useless if you are in a hurry.

Also remember that what you see in a video is not exactly what you are going to see in real life with your eyes.
Your eye has a much wider dynamic range for light and colour than the videos you'll see on YouTube.

Except in edge use cases, you'll probably find that at max settings the FFP PLx line from PA has all the illumination you can use for most all but the extreme edge use cases.

When you have to rely on the illumination to use things at 1x then max brightness becomes super important.
Click to expand...
At the same time, what happens when your aimpoint, eotech or rmr batteries go kaput ? You are in the same boat from that point of view but still have an etched reticle to use.

Part of anyone plan is and should be battery maintenance and having spares. There is not situation where with a LPVO you would be fucked and an aimpoint you wouldn't the worse fucked when it comes to batteries dying.

No body serious takes the PA shit serious.
 
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#15
W54/XM-388 said:
Love them or hate them one thing about the PA reticles in their LPVO line is that the illumination doesn't really matter.
At 1x with zero illumination you can see the primary horseshoe ring from bright noon daylight until dusk.
Click to expand...
My VUDU 1-10 is the same way. I just leave the illumination off on a sunny day. The etched reticle and the quality of the glass makes it literally EoTech fast on 1X. The 1-10 Razor is much brighter but it’s 1X speed is not on par with the VUDU 1-10
.
IMG_6461.jpeg
 
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#16
01911 said:
My VUDU 1-10 is the same way. I just leave the illumination off on a sunny day. The etched reticle and the quality of the glass makes it literally EoTech fast on 1X. The 1-10 Razor is much brighter but it’s 1X speed is not on par with the VUDU 1-10
.
View attachment 8470711
Click to expand...
Is that a mod 2 upper? I just got another SR15 lower and need to figure out what to put on top. Either a super duty 11.5 or a Mod 2 with the Eotech looks great.
 
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#17
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Primary arms optics are dogshit. Shitty larpers recommend that bullshit with their even worse reticles.

NX8 with Tree reticle or the 1-10 Eotech would be my top choices under 1.5K.

Both are very comparable on 1x to a red dot with the added magnification as an option for PID and longer engagements.
Click to expand...

One of these days I need to stop arguing with you about that and just break down and get one of those ones you recommend and see how they work.

If you happen to one day come across a crazy good deal on a used one, let me know.

I will agree that most of the PA LPVO reticles are kind of a bit "not as useful" for anything specifically precision at long distance.
 
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#18
W54/XM-388 said:
One of these days I need to stop arguing with you about that and just break down and get one of those ones you recommend and see how they work.

If you happen to one day come across a crazy good deal on a used one, let me know.

I will agree that most of the PA LPVO reticles are kind of a bit "not as useful" for anything specifically precision at long distance.
Click to expand...
Marshal came here years ago for feedback when he was developing his ACSS. I gave him a ton of good feedback, I was still in the army at the time and doing a ton of combat carbine type shooting. He didn't listen and went on with that abortion. I know some of his stuff is made in Japan now and probably comparable to the other stuff, but I cant get down with his reticles and the fact he is just specing OEM shit and makes nothing in house.

I really like the Eotech 1-10 and it can be had for a good price via mil/leo discounts. Less than a used NX8 will cost. The dot on 1x insist as bright as the Nx8 but you also have a full eotech ring of death which IMO, is still the fastest sight picture on the market. Eotech also has better glass.
 
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#19
DeathBeforeDismount said:
Marshal came here years ago for feedback when he was developing his ACSS. I gave him a ton of good feedback, I was still in the army at the time and doing a ton of combat carbine type shooting. He didn't listen and went on with that abortion. I know some of his stuff is made in Japan now and probably comparable to the other stuff, but I cant get down with his reticles and the fact he is just specing OEM shit and makes nothing in house.

I really like the Eotech 1-10 and it can be had for a good price via mil/leo discounts. Less than a used NX8 will cost. The dot on 1x insist as bright as the Nx8 but you also have a full eotech ring of death which IMO, is still the fastest sight picture on the market. Eotech also has better glass.
Click to expand...

It looks like I could get the:
Eotech Part #VDU1-10FFSR5-Vudu 1-10x28 FFP Riflescope - SR5 Reticle (MRAD) for about $1380 new

Or do you prefer the LE5 reticle?

Would that be the one you'd recommend?

I'll probably shop around and see if I can find a better deal on a used one as well.

I have a PA PLx one that I'm not super fond of the reticle on that I could probably sell to cover at least half of the cost.
 
#20
W54/XM-388 said:
It looks like I could get the:
Eotech Part #VDU1-10FFSR5-Vudu 1-10x28 FFP Riflescope - SR5 Reticle (MRAD) for about $1380 new

Or do you prefer the LE5 reticle?

Would that be the one you'd recommend?
Click to expand...
The one with the crosshair is going to be the least easy to resell if you need to free up funds but whatever reticle that’s useful to you when your taking your time to aim small @ 8 or 10 X is the reticle that you want ( remember, the reticle zooms in to you beyond 6X ).
1X is all about the ring of fire and getting that quickly on a charging hog.
 
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#21
01911 said:
The one with the crosshair is going to be the least easy to resell if you need to free up funds but whatever reticle that’s useful to you when your taking your time to aim small @ 8 or 10 X is the reticle that you want ( remember, the reticle zooms in to you beyond 6X ).
1X is all about the ring of fire and getting that quickly on a charging hog.
Click to expand...

I think the LE5 is the one that has the + in the middle of the ring (taking up the whole ring) instead of the . in the center.

Since I haven't seen either in person, I guess either you or @DeathBeforeDismount might know, at say 8x - 10x is the + or the . better when you want to hit the exact spot and are taking your time?

1722535673273.png
 
#23
I have a 1-8 PL-x Griffin and besides being heavy (which just feels well built to me) I like it. Great glass. Daylight bright illum. As much as you can get without etched. Super usable reticle. I can get behind it quicker on 1x than my RMR on top of it. True 1x and 8x works very well for out to around 600 for me. They do have a lot of ridiculous BDC reticles but Griffin isn’t one of them. They also have a lot of sub par cheaper scopes.
 
#24
01911 said:
The one with the crosshair is going to be the least easy to resell if you need to free up funds but whatever reticle that’s useful to you when your taking your time to aim small @ 8 or 10 X is the reticle that you want ( remember, the reticle zooms in to you beyond 6X ).
1X is all about the ring of fire and getting that quickly on a charging hog.
Click to expand...
Do tell how you get all these hog charges, because all but once in 25yrs of canyon busting for them they RUNNOFT from me like a plague! Rolling in coca-cola & corn? :ROFLMAO:
 
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#25
W54/XM-388 said:
I think the LE5 is the one that has the + in the middle of the ring (taking up the whole ring) instead of the . in the center.

Since I haven't seen either in person, I guess either you or @DeathBeforeDismount might know, at say 8x - 10x is the + or the . better when you want to hit the exact spot and are taking your time?

View attachment 8470731
Click to expand...
So with either ( I’ve had both ) the (2) is my hold for hitting 6” steel @ 400 yards so the crosshair or center dot doesn’t really come into play beyond 250 yards. At 100 or 200 the crosshair is not in the way when you’re at 6 - 10X but the dot can be more precise inside of 200 yards if you do your part and use fairly expensive ammo
.
IMG_6465.jpeg

.
75 grain Hornady @ 100 with the Crosshair Vudu 1-10.
With my astigmatism the crosshair reticle looks wavy but in spite of my old eyes that ^^ grouping was kinda rapid fire. I don’t think the center dot would have been any tighter so if the crosshair is in your budget then all you’d have to consider is that the Vudu 1-10 is a heavy gal.
The FFP thing is better for me because of my old eyes. The constant holds throughout the magnification range is unique to FFP but the counter to that is that you only care about your hold on max magnification anyway and the SFP can provide less expensive illumination.
Speed on 1X is all about the glass. I haven’t seen that ^^ 1-8 PA SFP to compare but regardless it looks like it checks more boxes for you if the street price is much lower than MSRP ( I haven’t checked ).
 
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#28
houndog said:
Yes, another LPVO thread. It's just that I'm kind of overwhelmed with the possible choices.

Intended use - recently purchased a Noveske Afghan upper with a 14.5" stainless upper. I already have a couple of SBR's with red dots and a 18" CLE upper with a 24x scope that's dedicated to long range shooting. This rifle would be my do it all option. So offhand shooting at 15-50 yards, but also would take it out to 4-500 yards. I have access to a 600 yard range, and will probably end up doing about 75% of my shooting with this rifle at 200+ yards and beyond.

I have an absolute max budget of $1,500 and if I can keep it under $1,000 that would be great. Obviously, the scope needs to be reasonably rugged, and have really solid glass. Weight is a concern, so if I can keep it light that would be a plus. And it has to have a reticle that works for both in close shooting and long distance shooting. Finally, I can live with 1-6x but 1-8x would be better. Don't really want to go up to 1-10x, since I don't think I really need it and understand those scopes can be problematic.

The problem is that there are a ton of choices that look like they would work. Primary Arms has a 1-8x for $1,500 that is really interesting and is probably my current top choice. It's relatively light and has a great reticle. Of course the Vortex Razor 1-6x is a solid option. Great glass, great warranty but getting another 2x would be nice. I have a Trijicon Credo in higher magnification, that I like, so their 1-8x is interesting to me. Steiner has a 1-6x option that looks it would work. Eotech has something in my price range, and I'm a big fan of their holographic sight, but don't know anything about their other scopes. And finally, there's the Nightforce NXS, but I think even on sale that's going to end up over my max budget and the ATACR is way over my budget.

So I guess I'm just interested in other shooters' thoughts and experiences with the above scopes, or something I maybe have left out.
Click to expand...
Thanks for starting this thread. I know there have been previous "LPVO" threads but it's always good to get expert opinions, especially as optics continue to evolve.
 
#29
Alright guys, you've given me a lot to think about. That 1-10x Eotech looks very interesting. I can find one under my $1,500 budget. It seems reasonably light. An extra 2x would be nice if it doesn't compromise quality of glass, add a ton of weight or create issues on 1x. I'm liking the SR5 reticle. I think reticle choice is sometimes not given enough consideration, but the reticle really needs to work for me since I don't anticipate fiddling with the elevation and windage adjustments once it's sighted in. So the reticle has to be very visible and fast on 1x, and allow precision hold over and windage shots at 400 yards.

FFP vs. SFP isn't a deal breaker one way or the other, so long as the reticle permits fast shots at 1x and precise shots at 8x or 10x. As a practical matter I'm probably going to be spending about 95% of my time at 1 x or full power. But I guess all things being equal, my preference would be for FFP.

So for those with the Eotech, I assume the glass is excellent. And a daylight bright dot would be nice at 1x, but it really doesn't need to be nuclear bright.

Still liking the Primary Arms as well. Not sure why it's getting so much hate. Glass is said to be very good, and I think it's mfg. in the same factory as some other top tier scopes, so quality should be solid. Yes, the reticle will take time getting used to, but it looks like if you zero the tip of the arrow at 50/200 you get a built in BDC with 77gr SMK rounds, which is what I'd be using for long distance. Hopefully, it will also work at 1x.

I appreciate the recommendation for the PA SFP model which looks to have a brighter dot at 1x, which is a big plus. But how does the reticle work at 8x if holding for elevation and wind?
 
#30
houndog said:
Still liking the Primary Arms as well. Not sure why it's getting so much hate. Glass is said to be very good, and I think it's mfg. in the same factory as some other top tier scopes, so quality should be solid. Yes, the reticle will take time getting used to, but it looks like if you zero the tip of the arrow at 50/200 you get a built in BDC with 77gr SMK rounds, which is what I'd be using for long distance. Hopefully, it will also work at 1x.

I appreciate the recommendation for the PA SFP model which looks to have a brighter dot at 1x, which is a big plus. But how does the reticle work at 8x if holding for elevation and wind?
Click to expand...

It's important to understand which exact series in Primary Arms you are talking about.
The Platinum series is made in Japan and are pretty decent, they can be had in 1-8x in either FFP or SFP
There is a 1-8 PLXc with the Nova Fibre dot in SFP.

The Silver line is made in China or the Philippines, and has a similar scope but it's the sub $400 class scope.
You are going to get what you pay for with that.

I'm going to say this as having 4 of the FFP PA Platinum series and 5 of the older SFP PA Silver series.
Platinum series is made in Japan and is has good glass.
(But it's not perfect, the older version has some CA on the edges and the newer one has a tiny bit of distortion on the edges)

IF I was going to do it all over again, on the Platinum series, I'd strongly think about just paying the extra and getting the Eotech or the Nightforce.
I don't have either of those last 2 options (but may order one shortly), so I can't compare side by side.

To put it in perspective, I'm probably going to sell one of my PA PLx ones to help fund an Eotech or Nightforce.

FFP your holds work at all magnifications
SFP your holds are only properly accurate at one specific setting (usually max).

The Tip of the arrow in practice is actually hard to use at any speed, you'll probably wind up covering the target with the top of the apex of the arrow.

If you can get a great deal on one of the PA ones and like it, great.

BUT

If you are spending close to the MSRP of $1499 then I'd say it's a no brainer to pick the Eotech over the PA

If your idea of using it for "long distance" entails trying to hit accurate targets at 500 yards + I think the Eotech offering is going to be a big must.

I originally bought the PA ones with the idea of them going on ARs that would be for 25 yards out to 300 yards max.
 
#31
W54/xm-388 - Thank you. Your comments are very helpful. Yes, I know the difference between PLX and cheaper models. Really looking at the PLX, which retail for $1,500 and are made in Japan. PA is selling these for full retail right now, but with bonus bucks on some models - which I can use to buy more stuff at PA. OK deal if there was anything else I really wanted from PA, but I really just want the scope.

I can actually pick up the Eotech on sale for under $1,400. And I have a fair amount of time with an Eotech holographic site, which is probably my favorite CQB option. So if the reticle at 1x is somewhat like that, it will be an easy transition.

Never really used an optic with an arrow. Your comment that arrow is not a great reticle solution is helpful.

And yes, I really plan to use this rifle out to 400+ yards. I don't expect to be able to consistently hit 6" steel plates at that distance, particularly with an 8x or even 10x scope, hold overs and variable wind. However, 400-500 yards is definitely doable with a decent scope, a solid rifle and match ammo, and larger plate. And I suspect most of my "long range" shooting will generally be 200-400 yards.

But it's also got to work at 20-50 yards on 1x. That's sort of the idea behind this rifle. I have an SBR with a dot that's great for 75 yards and in. And I have a dedicated long range AR with an 18x scope, an 18" barrel and a Magpul PRS stock. This gun needs to be do it all AR. And my understanding is that the Noveske Afghan upper would work for this role, as it has 14.5" barrel that can initially go on my SBR lower. Will probably end up building another lower, pinning and welding a Dead Air muzzle device on the barrel to get to 16" and shooting suppressed, particularly since I have a couple of stripped lowers, parts kit and extra Geissele trigger just lying around.
 
#33
LPVO opinions are as varied as their applications. Anecdotal is how I would describe them, once you start discussing quality optics.

As far as the PLXC, there is nothing wrong with it and I've found it works very well at 1x, even without illumination. The meters reticle is my preferred. The chevron invokes some very strong opinions and while I'd prefer a center crosshair or dot, overall I find it works well as a jack of all trades LPVO.

As for the Eotech, I have only used it's cousin- the Delta Stryker 1-10. I quite liked the reticle design but found that the 1X useability in practice was lacking. I never stretched it out very far but the reticle did seem better suited for that application. I'd love a compact, lightweight 2-10 or 2-12 with a similar reticle.

The Razor 1-6 is the oft sited standard. It's a very good optic that does 1x quite well and can still get out a ways. I somewhat regret passing mine down the road but am happy with the PLXC that replaced it.

Out of the above, I've kept the PLXC but if I was to add another it would likely be a Razor 1-6. Pick which end of the range you want to use the most and find the reticle that works best for you.
 
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#34
Marex, this is kind of where I am right now. I'm really liking the Eotech 1-10x. A little extra magnification is always a plus. Confident the glass and construction will be excellent. Like the reticle. I'm coming around to FFP being useful. As I said in my original post, I anticipate 75% of my shooting being at 200 yards and beyond, and I think that's where the Eotech will shine.

The one downside is that at 1x the scope really seems lacking. Illumination is not really usable in bright daylight and while I like the dot and donut of death in Eotech's holographic sight, it looks like on the 1-10x you're just trying to center the target in this ginormous ring and pulling the trigger. I suppose with enough practice, you can learn to deal with anything, but clearly not ideal for close in shooting. And I'm just not willing to add an offset red dot to a scope that's supposed to be usable at 1x. So the question is whether I can live with a mediocre scope at 1x to get something I really like at 8-10x.

Other alternatives are Primary Arms - but the more I think about it I'm really not loving that chevron reticle.

And there's always the trusty Vortex Razor 1-6. Great glass, and much better at 1x than the Eotech. But it's 6x at the top end vs. 10x. I have no doubt 6x will get me out to 400, but 10x would be better.

Finally, if I bite the bullet and spend a couple of hundred more the Nightforce NXS 1-8 becomes an option. I have spent a little time with this scope already and it has the virtue of having a pretty good reticle and 8x at the top end, while having a bright dot that makes 1x almost as fast as a red dot. Probably the most versatile scope of the bunch, but it would be a little more money.
 
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#35
houndog said:
Marex, this is kind of where I am right now. I'm really liking the Eotech 1-10x. A little extra magnification is always a plus. Confident the glass and construction will be excellent. Like the reticle. I'm coming around to FFP being useful. As I said in my original post, I anticipate 75% of my shooting being at 200 yards and beyond, and I think that's where the Eotech will shine.

The one downside is that at 1x the scope really seems lacking. Illumination is not really usable in bright daylight and while I like the dot and donut of death in Eotech's holographic sight, it looks like on the 1-10x you're just trying to center the target in this ginormous ring and pulling the trigger. I suppose with enough practice, you can learn to deal with anything, but clearly not ideal for close in shooting. And I'm just not willing to add an offset red dot to a scope that's supposed to be usable at 1x. So the question is whether I can live with a mediocre scope at 1x to get something I really like at 8-10x.

Other alternatives are Primary Arms - but the more I think about it I'm really not loving that chevron reticle.

And there's always the trusty Vortex Razor 1-6. Great glass, and much better at 1x than the Eotech. But it's 6x at the top end vs. 10x. I have no doubt 6x will get me out to 400, but 10x would be better.

Finally, if I bite the bullet and spend a couple of hundred more the Nightforce NXS 1-8 becomes an option. I have spent a little time with this scope already and it has the virtue of having a pretty good reticle and 8x at the top end, while having a bright dot that makes 1x almost as fast as a red dot. Probably the most versatile scope of the bunch, but it would be a little more money.
Click to expand...
The 1X on the 1-10 Vudu is very fast. The glass is amazing, the donut of death jumps right out at you and the tube is bigger than the NX8 so it’s just easier to get behind it. The muted illumination is not an issue on a bright day because the etched reticle is right there and when a non white target is in your sight picture then the illumination maintains your crystal clear view. If your target is white then the black etched reticle pops out. I haven’t seen a tree in NM or W TX in a while so I can’t vouch for the Vudu on a bright day in the woods with no canopy.
I think the NX8 with the DMX reticle is the one that checks the most boxes for ya but if a 5 or 6X magnifier is enough magnification when you have the time to aim small under magnification then the MRO HD has the choice of the EoTech and/or Aimpoint reticle in a single unit
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IMG_6466.jpeg

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#37
Just going to relate a bit of anecdotal, recent experience regarding the ‘chevron’ in PLXC 1-8 Griffin reticle and its potential for accuracy at mid distance.
I’ve had good results to 850 in a 20” Proof 6.5 Grendel, and had a female friend at the ranch for some biathlon training, and offered to let her shoot Grendel. She has had zero previous long range shooting experience and after warming up at 300, 500 and 600, she shot 4 shots at 700 yds that had three in about 3” and fourth about 6”. Not bad for an reticle difficult to shoot with a level of precision.
IMG_0379.jpeg
 
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#38
Steiner T6Xi 1-6. Illuminated, throw lever, other stuff, zero stop, FFP, mil, .1 mil click, designed/machined/assembled in USA, more stuff. I think it comes with Tenebraex flips (I'll have to check my box). Wanted to try something different than the NX8 (though mine is something other than the 1-8). Would buy again.
 
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#39
I am a huge fan of the fiber wire SFP setups in LPVOs, just my personal preference. I have used the Viper 1-6, the Steiner, the NX8, and I currently have an ATACR 1-8 and a Vector Continental 1-8. Just my 2c, the Vector is great. It is affordable, has a massive field of view and a great picture at all mag levels, it isn't too heavy at about 19oz, and the reticle is simple and aimpoint bright. It also has locking turrets that track well if you want to dial. It is not compact, does not have a long track record yet, and its magnification adjustment is very stiff. I prefer it to the ATACR, but that is because I like SFP fiber LPVOs, not because the NF isn't a fantastic scope. I have no experience with the PA scopes.
 
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#41
Well, after searching around quite a bit, I realized, that there are some Vudus 1-10 are on sale on this plattform, but no PA "C" 1-8.
Does that say something?
I don´t know.

Pricewise the PLx C 1-8 Nova is just a little tad cheaper than the Kahles K18i (in Europe).
I have no idea which I should get.

Which one would you choose and why?
Please help me to make a decision.
:geek:
 
#42
Jayjay1 said:
there are some Vudus 1-10 are on sale on this plattform, but no PA "C" 1-8.
Does that say something?
Pricewise the PLx C 1-8 Nova is just a little tad cheaper than the Kahles K18i.
Which one would you choose and why?
Please help me to make a decision.
:geek:
Click to expand...
If I could afford a Khales I would just get the Razor 1-10 and deal with the extra few ounces.
 
#43
01911 said:
If I could afford a Khales I would just get the Razor 1-10 and deal with the extra few ounces.
Click to expand...
Well, the Razor 1-10 is close to 3k over here, what is way over my budget (2k is too, but well ...).
The PLx C 1-8 is 2,15k, the K18i 2,3k.

So for me it is still the question PA or Kahles for the (almost) same price.

I can´t handle one or the other, just order them and wait, so I hope for recommendations from you guys.
 
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#44
Jayjay1 said:
Well, the Razor 1-10 is close to 3k over here, what is way over my budget (2k is too, but well ...).
The PLx C 1-8 is 2,15k, the K18i 2,3k.

So for me it is still the question PA or Kahles for the (almost) same price.

I can´t handle one or the other, just order them and wait, so I hope for recommendations from you guys.
Click to expand...
The Swarovski Z8i has better illumination. Is it the same price as the Kahles where you are ( usually similar price here in The States ).
 
#45
01911 said:
The Swarovski Z8i has better illumination. Is it the same price as the Kahles where you are ( usually similar price here in The States ).
Click to expand...
The Z8i is at 2,6k.

Originally the PLx C 1-8 is at 1,9k, but with the Nova reticle the importer here pulled the price up to 2,1k.
I hoped I can get the Nova model for 1,9k, but that will not happen now.

So I could go with one of the other reticles with the PLx C.

Or still want to compare the Nova model with the Kahles K18i.
Can I get input for that?
 
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#46
So 2,000 Euro for the PLx C where you are? In the states they retail for $1,500, but if you are even a little patient you can get some kind of a coupon code from PA that brings them down to $1,200-1,300. I have no personal experience with the Kahles, but I think it's generally considered a top tier optic and a lot more expensive here in the U.S. Same would be true of the Swarovski. So for you I'm not sure the PA makes much sense since you can get better glass for the same or less money.
 
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#47
Thanks for that info.
Yes, the importer here uses the hype for the PLx C and pulls up the price, 2,200 Euro now actually.

The other reticles run 200 bucks cheaper, so 1,995 Euro for the other PLx C - reticles (Meter, Griffin, MOA).

I guess so, that the glass might be better, but the reticle of the K18i is - what I´ve seen in videos - not daylight-bright as the one from the PLx C is.
And the two illuminated dots are, hm, "unusual".

The Kahles Mod. 1 is just 100 bucks more expensive.
 
#48
The 2nd gen K18i illumination is better.
It should read K18i-2.
The tube is larger and the whole unit is heavier but I believe they ditched that 2 dot thing.
 
#49
Well, the Mk. 2 runs around 2,700 Euro around here, on par with the Leica.
The Razor 1-10 is at 2,850 Euro, but still waaaayyy cheaper than the S&B.

www.livingactive.de

Kahles K18i-2 1-8x24 Zielfernrohr

Unübertroffenes Sehfeld von 50 m auf 100 m! 3GR Absehen für den dynamischen Einsatz Sehfeld und optische Leistung optimiert für…
www.livingactive.de www.livingactive.de

www.livingactive.de

Vortex Razor HD Gen III 1-10x24 Zielfernrohr

Das Vortex Razor HD Gen III 1-10x24 Zielfernrohr ist eine herausragende Optik für ein einzigartiges Schießerlebnis, nahezu ohne Grenzen. Die nächste…
www.livingactive.de www.livingactive.de

www.jagdladen.de

Schmidt&Bender PM II ShortDot Dual CC 1-8x24

PM II ShortDot Dual CC 1-8x24
www.jagdladen.de www.jagdladen.de

So, for me it´s still either the K18i-1 or the PLx C 1-8.
 
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