Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

[Former0302]

Basra Boy inspired me, the journey has begun.

The M1903A1 1941 USMC Sniper is my favorite rifle, or at least tied with the M40A1. It has been a long standing desire of mine to add one to the collection.

My goal is not necessarily to create an exact clone, but more of a reproduction "look alike" shooter that gives me the full experience of the original and could be used in CMP events...but without breaking the bank.

Within reason, I would like things to be correct. I also understand that NM rifles with star gauged barrels and USMC sniper marked Unertls will push me into the realm of a "financially not possible" project.

Still, would it be possible to create a rifle with non-reproduction parts (even if not exactly correct for a clone) without causing a divorce? I started on line auction hunting to get a sense of what Unertl scopes were going for. My expectations of being able to pull this off started going quickly downhill, and JRA was looking more and more like the route to take.

Turning my curiosity into action started with an ebay auction on a 8X Unertl (NOT marked USMC Sniper). I put in a bid at the top of the range I was willing to cough up, fully expecting not to win...only I did. Uh oh, now I was committed to doing this thing.

I picked it up for less than $1K. I think I did well, pictures to follow once it is delivered.

Scope procured, I started looking for donor rifles, and found a high serial number 1903, in a C stock. I know the serial number is outside the range it should be, but the combination of the condition of the rifle, a "as new" SA 9-44 barrel and a price of under $800 seemed like a reasonable deal and fit with the overall goal. The stock is nice, but has "character." This is actually a plus for me.

Next steps include:

- Identify a source for a NM butt plate.
- Identify a gunsmith who can:
- reliably install the scope mounting blocks and modify the hand guard.
- Polish, rails and magazine follower
- reblue and electro pencil the bolt
- Possibly blue the scope mounting brackets (currently in the white as it is a civilian scope).

Any suggestions on a US gunsmith who has experience with these things?

 

[cattle buyer]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

U devil ! I wanted that 8X Unertl For my 54' mod 70 target in a sporter stock whitetail hammer.... I have a 15X and its just too much for deer hunting... congrats and good luck with build.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

former0302 - what can I say! Will be following the build with interest.

My build was "pricey" - only because of the general cost of 1903's on this side and the genuine USMC scope. But I'm sure you can get the job done well for a lot less.

Steve Earle's scope blocks are good value (and very close to the dimensions of the originals).

Let me know if I can help with anything.

PM inbound on some of those "hard to find parts"

 

[pmclaine]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

A WTB posting on Culvers Shooting Page or the CMP Forum should get you a rough checkered buttplate with door. I picked one up that looks NOS for +/- $150.

When I was doing same a gent replied and he had a bunch of NOS rough checkered with door but he was asking +$300 for these.

 

[John L]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

You wont be able to blue the mounts, they are made of aluminium. Might be able to do something with Ceracoat if it is important to you. I would leave them alone and if anyone says something tell them to F off.

 

[ScharfshutzeK98]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

I would love to do one of these, I look forward to following your build.

 

[DV]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

When I did my build my scope went to Parsons Optical for some work and while there I paid to have them anodize the mounts.

You have several finish options, or could just leave them bright.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Thanks everyone for the tips and interest.

Cattle buyer, Gunbroker has a 10X Unertl that has some surface rust but should clean up nicely. Might be an option for your "whitetail hammer."

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

The Steve Earle blocks are blued already.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

It's not the mounting blocks I was thinking about so much as the scope mounting brackets. We're the original USMC sniper brackets aluminum also, or we're they steel, and if aluminum how were they coated?

It's not big a deal I guess to leave them bright, but it would be nice to have it visually similar.

I'll have to take a look at the blocks when they come in, but I think they are blued already.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

OK, understood. My bad

The adjustors on mine are pretty well worn so that on the elevation mount in particular, much of the anodizing is worn away.

Is it easy to get small parts anodized where you are?

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Well, the scope came in yesterday. Overall condition is good, but it is 2 inch target scope. Won't work for the build.

Disappointing. Back to looking for the scope.

In the meantime I have a 10X that is a bit beat up that might get sent out to be refurbished and could sit on the build until I can find an 8X I can afford. Can't take it to any CMP events, but could work for some fun at the range.

cattle buyer, still interested in the scope?

 

[BIGGLEE0351]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

You gents have any pics?? TIA

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Sorry to hear about that scope....what a let down. PM inbound on x8

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

1st, I know threads are useless without pics...I'm still waiting on the rifle to show up at my FFL. I started this thread early in the process, so my apologies, but I'll post pics as things come together.

So close to picking up the right scope...lost the eBay auction last night literally in the last seconds because I was distracted by the election.

I have a 1 1/2'' 10X and I'm considering putting it on the rifle until I can get a scope compliant with CMP rules so that I can have some fun at the range.

I know that the 8X 1 1/4'' scope "O" and "E" mounting blocks should be 7.2 inches center to center.

My questions are:

1) Are the O and E mounting blocks compatible with the 1 1/2'' scopes?
2) If mounted at 7.2 inches, would that work for both the 10x and also an 8X (either Leatherwood repro or if/when I can find one an original Unertl)

Basically, my question is can I have O and E blocks installed on this rifle and have these scopes be interchangeable?

Thanks in advance,
Jon

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

As far as I can recall the spacing remains the same. 7.2" is certainly the spacing that most articles I read on Unertl scopes (1 1/4"objective / 3/4" tubes) mentions as far as 1/4 MOA clicks are concerned).

I'm thinking it is determined by overall height above bore of the optical centre??

If the scope tube diameter is the same as the x8 I can't see why you'd have a problem with the E and O blocks?

The main problem is likely to be whether the 1 1/2" objective will fit without contacting the handguard.

I'd suggest putting in a call to Steve Earle on this to check.

Also, in regards to your non-anodized adjustors....found this. Any help?

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=159440

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Thanks BasraBoy. That might be a route to go. I'm still checking into the cost to get them anodized. Might be the less expensive route to take. Appreciate the link though.

Jouster forum had ChuckinDenver comment on my question.

For those who may be interested, you are correct. Those blocks wouldn't be a problem, and the spacing would be consistent at 7.2''. He recommended the Lyman blocks that sit just a tad higher (again, so you have the ability to put larger objective scopes and still have some clearance).

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

No problem....yes, those anodized adjusters are pretty pricey!

Can't think it'd cost too much if you can find someone with the tanks to do it for you.

On the blocks, with the rear butted up against the sight ramp and spaced 7.2" centre-to-centre with the front block the x8 1 1/4" objective is between 6/16" and 7/16" off the front handguard (see below).

That is probably OK for the 1 1/2" scopes...but I'd think a "no go" on the 2" though?

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Well, thanks to Two Man Attack I've got an 8x 1 1/4'' target scope inbound!

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Okay, so received the donor rifle and took it for a spin on Veteran's Day.

First the rifle, it's not exactly correct for a clone, actually it isn't close to correct...but then again my purpose is to create a shooter for a reasonable price that has a non-reproduction scope and could be used at CMP matches.

A high number Remington in a C stock, with a fair amount of cosmoline still on / in it. Probably a Greek return purchased through the CMP (but I have no paperwork to prove it).

Stock has some "character," but again not necessarily a detractor for me. Cleaned up I think it should look pretty nice and some wear adds to it I think.

Underneath some of this grime is some nice grain (I hope).

So, did some basic cleaning up (completely disassembled, boiling water to remove the cosmoline on the metal and then some CLP). Took it out to 100 yds to see what it could do.

Was just trying to get a decent group, and after the first couple of shots in the lower left of the target did a little Kentucky windage to get closer to the center and fired a 5 round group. Fourth and fifth shot were the lower shots. After getting up out of the prone after the fifth shot, I noticed that the upper band had slipped off the front handguard. Could have been poor shooting on my part, but the POI might have changed due to that. Either way, shot pretty good with Greek surplus HXP ammo.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Looks like a more than decent start.

Some light and local steaming will probably reduce some of the dents in the furniture...a light sanding and some new stock finish - it'll look gorgeous! As it is...it's got that great patina to it.

Either way....it's got character.

As well as the stock band, check the worm gear on the rear sight....that was worn when I got my rifle and we had to hold the rear sight in place when shooting to stop it moving sideways. Apparently a common fault.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Scope arrived today (thanks again Two Man Attack) and I'm getting ready to ship the rifle to ChuckinDenver over at Jouster.com to mount the blocks, modify the handguard, and clean up and refurbish the wood.

Here's pics of what I'm now sure is the correct scope

And the brackets and adjusters are annodized.

 

[DV]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former0302</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scope arrived today (thanks again Two Man Attack) and I'm getting ready to ship the rifle to ChuckinDenver over at Jouster.com to mount the blocks, modify the handguard, and clean up and refurbish the wood.

Here's pics of what I'm now sure is the correct scope

And the brackets and adjusters are annodized.

</div></div>

I hate to tell you but that`s a 1" Unertl target scope, not a 1 1/4".

And the text from an Unertl catalog:


The 1 1/4 " and I" Target scopes are intermediate size instruments for the shooter who favors lower power,
lighter weight or a more compact design.
Optically and mechanically they are equal in qual- ity to the larger instruments.
The objective assembly is of the focusing type and has an engraved scale which is used in conjunction with the
graduated ring.
With the exception of the objective cell, the 1 1/4 " scope is identical to the 1 1/2 " scope and it can be converted
to the larger objective size at a future time.
This feature is particularly attractive to the shooter who wishes to improve his sighting equipment as he becomes
more proficient.
Standard Equipment-Standard 1/4 min. click target type mounts, standard clamp ring, screw dust caps, choice of
any listed power and standard reticule, recoil spring on 1 1/4". Extra Equipment-POSAMounts, Magnum tube clamp,
interchangeable eyepieces, Lee dots, recoil spring on 1".

Specifications:

Scope Model 1 1/4" Target Scope
Objective Aperture 1 1/4"
Ocular Aperture 3/4"
Eye Relief 2"
Overall Length 25"
Max. Objective cell Diameter 1 5/8"
Max Ocular Cell Diameter 7/8"
Weight 1 lb 9 oz
Main Tube Diameter 3/4"
Powers Available 8,10,12,14,16x


Specifications
Scope Model 1" Target Scope
Objective Aperture 1"
Ocular Aperture 3/4"
Eye Relief 2"
Overall Length 21 3/4"
Max. Objective cell Diameter 1 5/16"
Max Ocular Cell Diameter 7/8"
Weight 1 lb 5 oz
Main Tube Diameter 3/4"
Powers Available 6,8,10x



Get a ruler and see for yourself- here`s a helpful hint: the various diameters, 1", 1 1/4", so forth, are the actual lens diameter, not the objective diameter. You have to unscrew the sunshade and measure the actual glass lens.

Another difference between the 1" and 1 1/4" scopes is the overall length, the 1" is shorter than the 1 1/4", again use yor ruler and see for yourself. The 1" scope also has round head screws on the scope main tube that are proud of the scope tube, these are not found on the 1 1/4" scopes.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

...on the upside, it should fit the rifle and get you shooting.

As DV spotted in Docles's thread...the repros are also based on the 1" objective and fit fine. And the benefit of your scope is that it is a REAL Unertl.

Perhaps the only issue could be CMP eligibility if it's not 100% true to the originalBut I 'm not familiar with those rules.

There's time later to look around for a 1 1/4" or even an original if you get the funds together.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

LOL...and the hits just keep on coming!

The 1'' scope should be fine for CMP rules, as they state it can't be greater than a 1 1/2'' objective and no greater than 8X. I'm okay in terms of what I paid and what it'll be used for. At least for a while. Fits the overall objective and as you said, get's me shooting until I can find the more correct one.

What a learning curve. Hilarious.

 

[MJ1]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

I have a friend who had some fair condition checked butt plates if you strike out.

..MJ..

 

[firesniper27]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

awsome rifle hope to add one to my collection some day

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

The rifle arrived home from my gunsmith yesterday. Chuck (alias Chuckindenver at Jouster) from Warpath Vintage, LLC did a phenomenal job at a VERY reasonable price.

Apologize in advance for the cruddy pictures. They were rushed and I'll try and get better ones up soon. These really don't do this piece justice.

Chuck refurbished the stock by degreasing it, steamed out the worst of the dents, and then refinished it. The result is a very good replication of the rich chestnut patina these old battle rifles develop over years of hand rubbing BLO into them.

It's not a perfect stock, but it cleaned up very nicely and I love it. Just enough character to it to suggest it's been out of the armory a few times.

Bolt was re-blued and electro penciled. I know the serial number is out of the range, but it works for my purposes.

Chuck did a great job modifying the hand guard and matching the finish to the stock.

Scope blocks are case hardened blocks from Steve Earl. Chuck recommended we use the Lyman bases, as they are 1/10'' taller and allow for more scope clearance without modifying the bolt. Since I was more interested in creating a CMP shooter that wasn't an EXACT clone but came close, this made sense for me.

Chuck also recommended silver soldering the bases to the receiver and barrel. While not period correct, this makes for a much stronger connection. Again, given my purposes, this made sense for me.

So there it is, almost done. Need to put on a sling. All in, it was just slightly higher than buying one of the commercially available clones with the repro scope. About the same if you add in the cost of QC'ing / truing the repro scope and mounts.

Still on the lookout for a milled butt plate to replace the existing one.

And always on the lookout for a 8x 1 1/4'' target scope to replace the 1'' target scope it currently has on it.

But, I'm CMP legal and happy.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Great job! Congrats....and glad all the hard work paid off!

Really like the "aged" look of the stock.

Looking forward to the range report!

 

[mackdrvr]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Beautiful piece. Congrats.

 

[Chance]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Very nice setup/ rifle. Where did you pick up the rifle itself?

 

[BrianLara400]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

"Looks the goods" mate, well done!
Wasn't aware that the centre height of the Lyman and Unertl bases were dimensionally any different, you learn something new every day.
Where did you find the pair of Lyman bases?

How much space is there between the bolt handle when lifted & the tube, I'd not really considered it - but do you think I'll have issues with the same scope mounted on a model 70?

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Thanks for the kind words folks.

The rifle was a gunbroker find. Most likely a CMP Greek return. It's a high number Remington, so not really the right choice for a clone for the detail attentive, but I got it for a reasonable price, it had a C stock already and an as new barrel. Given my objective of creating a shooting look a like for a reasonable price it worked.

The blocks are from a guy in Massachusetts named Steve Earl. He manufactures them. Google his name and his website comes right up. Not sure if bolt clearance is an issue or not on the model 70. He makes O and E Unertl blocks as well. Case hardened or blued depending on your preference. They are nice, and he was great to deal with.

Hoping to get to the reloading bench today and put some spent HXP brass to work.

 

[eodcam]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

BrianL4, does your 70 have factory Blocks Already? If so, it should fit fine.

 

[BrianLara400]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

A model 70 target, simply isn't available to build on out here in Australia,
So it's a complete build, i.e it will involve me finding a modern barrel of the Win medium/heavy spec, sourcing the steve earle blocks of the correct height etc, I've allready purchased the action and have a duplication of the Marksman stock underway. I'll be responsible for truing the action/ fitting of barrel, mounting of blocks, bedding & finishing of stock. (

& looking forward to it when all the leg work sourcing components is out of the way)

 

[eodcam]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

I have blocks that will work and Lilja' has the contour.

 

[BrianLara400]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Do you remember if Lilja actually has a profile No# they called it?
The good thing is Lilja has a few stockists in Australia, so there should be a good chance i'll be able to track the right one down.

The specs I've been able to find:
Winchester Olin 24" Medium Heavy Target Barrel
.790" @ Muzzle
1.150" @ Breach
Straight Taper of .01484" per inch inclusive
No parallel distance @ knox-form.

However a Profile/Contour Number would be handy.
I purchased my marksman stock off ebay, and it is being duplicated in AA walnut for the project - however would probably be smart for me to check what barrel channel it has got before I place an order for the barrel, i.e it would look ugly if the channel is all ready @ bullrifle size and I stick a smaller tube in it.

 

[eodcam]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Win varmint 225 contour 1.125" for 2.5" then taper over 4" to 1.010" then straight taper to .740" at 28" (original was .785" at 24")
This contour also used on pre-64 30-06 target barrels

This is what lilja has on their site. I'll mic. Mine and see what comes out.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Another of my favorite rifles.

BrianL4, please start a build thread when you get started. I for one would love to follow along in the process.

 

[Smp2500]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

That thing is awesome, Great build.

 

[temecula]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

awsome rifle as a piece of pride

 

[ScharfshutzeK98]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Very nice!

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Got my hands on a heavy checkered butt plate. Not super cheap, but in very good condition.

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

And with its friends and family...

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Fantastic! And a great collection you've got going there......

 

[Charger442]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former0302</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And with its friends and family...

</div></div>


dumb question.... what is the second one from the top? is that the Weaver 330 scope on it?

 

[Former0302]

Re: Another M1903A1 / USMC Sniper "look alike" begins

Yes, it's a Weaver 330C scope with cross wire reticle.